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The Empire at War ... The Gamers Guild => WHFB The Electors' Forum => Topic started by: Xinithorp on March 27, 2005, 08:11:14 PM
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Something I've wanted to do for a long time is start a Warhammer (or 40K) army based around the British Infantry in the war of 1812.
Basically everyone needs a musket, I'd have a few cannons and maybe some cavalry.
I'd like to use Empire, but I'm not sure if it's possible to have an army built this way. I would probably do something with lots of Empire Handgunners. Lots.
Now, I'd be faced with have to get rid of the total puffiness of Empire uniforms and would probably be left with a whole lot of modelling. I'm not sure if it would be modelling I'd be prepared to do a whole lot. So I'm wondering about alternative models. These alternatives must still be GW models, however, as I'd be using this in GW stores and as far as I know they don't allow non-GW (for Forge World) models unless they're scratch built. And even then it might be a little restricted.
Here are a few pictures of what I'd be aiming for:
(http://www.hat.com/Book/cf-nap15.gif)
(http://www.warof1812.ca/image/cfphoto.jpg)
(http://calvert-county.com/1812-36.jpg)
And as you can see, the poofy uniforms don't really fit:
(http://uk.games-workshop.com/empire/miniature-gallery/images/handgunners.gif)
Now, to drive home the War of 1812 theme, I could have a regiment or two of Voyageurs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voyageurs) standing in for Militia.
For wizards I could use Brettionian Pilgrims as Jesuit Priests.
Any suggestions for how I might go about building this army? Particularily the models. The less modelling and money required, the better.
And for more info on the War of 1812, go here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_1812 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_1812)
Thanks for your help!
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Are you sure Warhammer is the game for you? I'm not saying it won't work, but you've got a number of things going against you here. As you said, modelling is going to be a bear if you want to "get rid of" the poofiness that is the Empire. Maybe one of the more experienced modellers can help out, but I have no idea how you could do this. Secondly, an army that is basically (or actually?) completely made up of handgunners is going to be very vulnrable to fast armies and IMO not very fun to play. You also might get accused of being cheesy a lot...but that's not your problem, it's theirs (but it's still something to consider). Lastly, I think (and others agree) that the best part of the Empire is its variety. By limiting yourself, you won't get to play with some of the cool pieces.
But all that said, I don't mean to be Captain Bringdown. It's not my place to tell others what to play with or what theme to use. If, in spite of the downsides I listed, still want to do it, I say go for it. The people on this forum are great and will undoubtedly help you out however they can. Good luck!
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I've made extensive use of all sorts of 'human' plastic sprues, and I think you are going to have a hell of a job.
Any legs will need extensive work, as most have frilly bits or tight breeches, or are too baggy with pockets like on the catachan sprues.
As for the jackets and tails again I cannot think of a part or parts combination that will get close.
The Militia torso with the coat tails is splayed, and very difficult to rank up - I've ended up using them for huntsmen/archers.
If you stick to 'true' GW it'll be a model by model job.
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Well, I'm going to get my hands on a detachment box (I notice there aren't any specific hand gunner boxes. Ya gotta buy 'em with the spearmen. :roll: ) and I'll see how complicated they are. If I find they're too hard to model 50 or so times, I'll try and figure something else out or even ditch the idea.
But for the moment it looks like all I'd require would be some slicing/filing and a greenstuff shako (hat), and a bit of green stuff to fix things up a bit.
I still have to get my hands on an Empire book (the most important part!) but I'll see what I can work out.
But as it looks I'll certainly have a decent amount of variety.
Voyageurs (Militia)
Infantrymen (Handgunners)
Mounted Musket guys (Pistoliers)
Cannons!
Priests/Monks (Wizards)
Shawnee Tribesmen (Huntsmen)
Maybe not as full of variety as some of the armies I've seen, but it's not entirely one sided. Lot of shooting though.
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Well, if you're dead-set on this, I might offer some advice.
It is a pain to have to buy spearmen with handgunners...even those of us who play more standard Empire armies usually have more spearmen than we'll ever use laying around (same goes for handgunners, although often to a lesser extent). Which brings me to my next point -- you might check out ebay for handgunners. There are usually a fair number of them listed.
You definitely have your work cut out for you. I'm curious as to how it goes, though, so keep me posted, if you don't mind.
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you might check out ebay for handgunners. There are usually a fair number of them listed.
Well, I actually just won a detachment box for about half the regular retail price. Maybe if I develop this I'll see about getting any old hand gunner that pops up. But for now it would be easier to work with something untouched.
I'll have to get the Army Book so I can make an actual list, but as it's sitting right now how do you think this army could fare?
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For a bit more variety you could have swordsmen or spearmen represent infantry on the charge with bayonets.
Keep us posted on this, I’m not a big expert on the war of 1812 but I’ve always found it interesting. And I love going to fort York and checking stuff out there.
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Its a great idea, u should model handgunns into spearmens hands but give them bayonets and form them in a square, have models representing ensigns/ lieutenants in the units ect. Make a few trials and post the picks...its an interesting concept and i dont think the esteemed TVI has taken a knock at it.good luck.
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You are in the wrong branch of the hobby. The war of 1812 has nothing to do with figures based in 16th century, nor with the Warhammer universe. Not historically, not militarily, not esthetically. Why not play the war of 1812 using... the war of 1812 figures and the rules designed for it specifically? Even disregarding all of the above, I don't see how you can convert the existing plastics or whether it is worth this effort, considering that your plan totally negates the variety available to the Empire.
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It’s a viable idea IMO if you can find an effective way to make the models. Just because he wants to play a 1812 themed army doesn’t mean he has to give up warhammer.
Although I’m looking at this from a modeling and “person-interested-in-the-war-of-1812 perspective†and less of an “empire†theme one. I imagine it is more the opposite for you.
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I definately see Warhammer Historicals in your future.
1812 miniatures ready-made.
Good luck.
Jon
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Are you sure Warhammer is the game for you?
That's what I meant, just not expressed as clearly. There are plenty of rulesets designed for the War of 1812. I don't know why you'd go through all the trouble converting Empire models.
Also, you asked about your list's combat effectiveness? Not very high. Free companies tend to fight poorly on their own (although we all love them as detachments) and the same goes for handgunners. You'd end up with a "gunline," which isn't very effective against many lists and isn't very interesting given the variety the Empire army lists give a player.
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You are in the wrong branch of the hobby. The war of 1812 has nothing to do with figures based in 16th century, nor with the Warhammer universe. Not historically, not militarily, not esthetically.
So what? I saw a mini feature on a WWI themed Imperial Guard army in White Dwarf a little while back.
If I were looking at doing a Vietnam themed army in Fantasy, well, that wouldn't really work. But the fighting style back then was really quite similar to that of the actual gameplay of Warhammer. Regiments, cannons and such.
I read somewhere that basically two opposing forces would line up across from eachother and shoot eachother in an agreed upon manner. :lol:
I wanna play Warhammer and the only place that I really know of is Games Workshop. In order to play there, they need to be Games Workshop models. Nuff said.
I don't know any Historical places nor is there an apparently decently sized community. What appears to be the official website looks like something anybody hastily put up.
Aaand, when you play historical, everyone's seen a British Napoleonic era force. I haven't yet seen a Warhammer army themed this way. There probably is. It's about time for another. :wink:
Just a short while until I get that box of handgunners and then I'll find out if it's really that hard. I can find other ways.
I just finished converting my sixth bike for my Space Marine biker army (check out the progress here (http://xinisbikes.blogspot.com))and I've got to say that this looks pretty easy. Meticulous, but easy.
At the moment it looks like what I have to do is file off the poofy bits (where applicable), fill any necessary spaces with green stuff, add little tails and finally make shakos.
Voyageurs are even easier. Just pretty much leave them as is, making the odd headwear change.
I'm looking at this not so much as an Empire army but rather my own army with Empire rules. These aren't your standard guys from Ostland. :wink:
But the way I see it is that I have a certain set of guidelines to follow and then from there I can do just about anything.
And if it gets really sticky I can add lots of spearmen and call them handgunners who've run out of ammo.
But just picture it:
"In this corner: A slithering Slaanesh army!
Aaaaaaand in this corner, their challenger is...The British Army!"
And I love going to fort York and checking stuff out there.
I "worked" there one summer as a drummer. Maaaan those uniforms are not fun to wear.
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I think this is an excellent idea, gunline/out-of-fluffness notwithstanding. It's always nice to see something different.
I really hate the detachment box - it's such a rip off! I can't believe they used to sell those sprues for £2 each, and now they want £6!
Anyway, have you seen this army:
http://gt.us.games-workshop.com/Results_Coverage/Baltimore/WFB/Adam_Clark/armygallery.htm
Something along similar lines to your idea, though not quite the same period.
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Oh great...Adam Clark has an Empire army...sigh....
And welcome Xini, long time no see. Did you put your Lizards away?
If you can combine the militia box with handgunners (there are a few guns on the sprues) you can get something that looks closer to British troops. I may have a few extra milita handguns lying around...and definitly have a few blunderbusses you can chop up.
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Oh great...Adam Clark has an Empire army...sigh....
Who's Adam Clark then? Someone you know personally? Why the dismay?
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I've met him in a local GW store. He has some of the most beautiful armies I've ever seen. His "Chaos Dwarf" army using dwarf rules (with the casket of souls as an anvil, and death rockets as BTs) is just outstanding.
When I see a well painted/converted army it usually inspires me to get going myself...his stuff just makes me think "I'll never be that good..."
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Ooooooh right! That's who that guy is. I knew I recognized him from somewhere.
Yeah, it's a really sweet dwarf army.
I like that Empire army. An he kept the poofiness! Certainly gives me an idea what to aim for.
The uniforms didn't really change much between the American Rev and the War of 1812. Mainly just their choice of headwear.
I don't think tricorn hats weigh your head down as much as a shako. Probably more comfortable too.
I wonder why they changed.
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Definitely take spearmen. Maybe spearmen with handgunner detachments to end up with an almost 1:1 ratio. That way, you get the shooting, but also represent the use of bayonets (as noted above). To use the theme to take an army solely of handguns misses some of the style of war of the period, as GW handgun rules cannot fight up close, unlike those with bayonets.
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Have you ever thought of the praetorian figs for Imperial Guard? Their uniforms look very British. I think you can still order them through GW, but that could be a bit of trouble, due to the fact that they have not made those models in a looong time.
That being said it might be too expensive :roll:
Good Luck!
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I've seen (on the web, somewhere) an Empire army done using the Praetorians, and it was gorgeous :ohmyy: . Only problem is that the Praetorians are Zulu Dawn/Roarks Drift era British Army, not 1812, Wellington and all that.
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There was a problem with some of the Mordians, mortar crew I think, but the Praetorians are there available on the UK website classics.
There are also loads in my loft.
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Have you checked out Flintloque (http://www.alternative-armies.com/indexflint.html)? Napoleonic fantasy - nice game system as well.
The British are Orcs (to much similarity between Napoleonic redcoats and Orcs), the Elves are French, Undead are Russian, Dark elves Spanish, Gobos are Portuguese, Dwarves are Prussian and so on a so forth.
The figures are no where near the quality of GW's castings, but they are characterfull, and they do paint up nicely.
Uniform wise - the 1763 (Rev War) and 1812 uniform differs greatly - hats non withstanding (and by the way, the shako is almost as light as a cocked hat, but offers better protection from sabre cuts believe it or not)
the 1812 coat is waist length with short tails and it is only single breasted as opposed to the double breasted only closed at the throat coat of 1763. Also trousers (overalls) were used instead of knee breeches.
Good luck with the converting - I for one would love to see the end results...! :-D
If you do think about buying straight figures,
Front Rank (http://www.frontrank.com/index2.html) are pretty close size wise.
Emsdorf and Victory,
Andy
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Well, the models came in from ebay and I tried a conversion to see how it would go. Check it:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v295/Xinithorp/handgunner.jpg)
The puffs weren't too difficult to slice off. The shako isn't too hard to make, but it's a bit fiddly and time consuming. I could easily do this a few times, but do I want to do it 50+ times?
Comments appreciated.
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His "Chaos Dwarf" army using dwarf rules (with the casket of souls as an anvil, and death rockets as BTs) is just outstanding.
You DO of course realise that thÃs means "pictures, mate"... and LOTS that is... :)
@ topic: I dunno.... I think Adam clark achieved as much as there IS to achieve... by completely filing off ALL the "puffyness" et. you just get very blunt looking miniatures without much detail. I don't really think it'll be worth the effort, sorry...
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I'll have to agree. I was a naysayer way back when this topic started up, and I stick to my guns. If you want an 1812 themed army, I'd say just buy some of the other figures others have recommended and then use Warhammer rules. As long as you don't play in official tournaments or at GW venues, you'll be fine.
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If you want an 1812 themed army, I'd say just buy some of the other figures others have recommended and then use Warhammer rules. As long as you don't play in official tournaments or at GW venues, you'll be fine.
as I'd be using this in GW stores
by completely filing off ALL the "puffyness" et. you just get very blunt looking miniatures without much detail.
Maybe when it's painted you'll see why I don't want the puffs.
I've worn one of these uniforms. Believe me, they ain't puffy. :wink:
I know Adam Clark was able to do it without the filing, but for this I just don't want it - especially on the legs.
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Hey Xinthorp.
You might want to look at the Old Glory miniautres or at foundry for these guys. I have been looking for some english civil war guys, and it works out really well for this game for sure. I am in Fergus Ontario as well. Hehehe... but grew up in Niagara falls, so I know quite a bit about the war of 1812 in that area.
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Ooooooh right! That's who that guy is. I knew I recognized him from somewhere.
Yeah, it's a really sweet dwarf army.
I like that Empire army. An he kept the poofiness! Certainly gives me an idea what to aim for.
The uniforms didn't really change much between the American Rev and the War of 1812. Mainly just their choice of headwear.
I don't think tricorn hats weigh your head down as much as a shako. Probably more comfortable too.
I wonder why they changed.
does anyone know where i can find this CD army?
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I know the OP mentioned he wanted to play at the GW store (hence the conversion job), but I'd like to take the opportunity to suggest having a look around for an historical club if you are interested in napoleonics. Although I personally quite enjoy a game of warhammer, the napoleonic period is a real treasure trove of goodness for the wargamer. That is assuming you're interested in the war of 1812 in particular rather than just the uniforms! :)
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I think people are kind of missing what I'm going for here.
I'm not trying to build another off-the-shelf historical army at some obscure games club out in suburbia.
Where's the fun in that?
I want to have a converted Empire army, not a stock 1812 army.
Part of this is the fun of converting the army and making it my own. There's nothing personal about buying a box of British grenadiers, But there is something special in taking a bunch of guys in poofy outfits and making a British army out of them.
Believe me. I know I can play some historical game with actual historical figures.
But I want to go for a converted Empire army.
That is assuming you're interested in the war of 1812 in particular rather than just the uniforms!
Heheh. Not in wearing them. Anyone here ever had to wear a leather neck stock? Yikes.
Heavy wool tunics on hot July days ain't all that fun either. And then you put on the drum...
Like I said, I've got all kinds of ways of including components of the era in the army.
Voyageurs
Priests
Natives
And of course the actual soldiers.
Thanks for any more comments.
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If you're willing to put in the time and effort then go for it. It's your army, and you can do with it as you see fit. Just make sure the benefit is worth while. If it is then I support your thoughts, and applaud you for constructing the army the way you want.
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I agree with Wissenlander. I think what a lot of us are doing is trying to save you a bunch of time an effort; we don't want you to waste a bunch of time "making" miniatures that you could just buy. I respect a good converting challenge (as many of do), but this goes beyond what most of us are willing to do. As Wissenlander said, if you're willing to invest that much time in the project, more power to you. I wish I had that kind of time to devote to my hobby, myself. I don't think any less of anyone for having "just another off the shelf Empire army." In fact, mine is "just off the shelf." To each his own.
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Believe me. I know I can play some historical game with actual historical figures.
But I want to go for a converted Empire army.
Are you sure? You know, you could buy actual historical figures and play actual historical games instead! (j/k, I'll stop now :wink: )
Your project sounds great, but if you're set on using GW figures I would perhaps go for something other than the Empire handgunners as a base for conversion. Instead, I think it would be easier to add handguns to say Free Company figures, who don't have the puffy arms and have shirts rather than breastplates. Sculpt a shako and some straps on those and you're golden. You can buy separate muskets or renaissance handguns in 28mm to use for such converstions.
Good luck with the army and be sure to post some pictures of your work!
Cheers/Fredrik
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go for it!
Not sure what all the comments about historicals is about really, but then i get the same when i bring out my arab themed army. I think some people just miss the point. It's great to have a unique army! :wink:
My only reservation would be making it themey and also fun to play. Empire gun lines don't seem to really test warhammer rules in a fun way (you know all the maneovering and all) - but i'm sure there are ways.
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I think this sounds very ambitious, but it looks like you're capable of it.
I think it's very important that you convert some of them to be using the bayonets more than firing the guns so that you can use them as spearmen [as already mentioned]. This gives you the option of having Spearmen units with handgunner detachments and handgunner units with spearmen detachments. That would help to make the army more interesting to play with and also combat effective.
I'm not sure what the cavalry looked like for this era, but I would definetly make it a priority to convert up some pistoliers as well as the infantry. People have previously used bits from the militia sprue to create plastic pistoliers so that woul d be a good place to start.
Good luck and thanks for the pics
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I say go for it.
I've seen an Empire Army based on the Alamo on a Texas GT coverage report. I was impressed. I personally wouldnt go for it because I'd like my armies to reside somewhere within the "Warhammer Universe" but I do get a kick out of seeing armies based on historical events and movies. I was at one time considering creating a vampire counts army based on the nightmare before christmas.
-Grutch
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I say go for it.
I've seen an Empire Army based on the Alamo on a Texas GT coverage report. I was impressed. I personally wouldnt go for it because I'd like my armies to reside somewhere within the "Warhammer Universe" but I do get a kick out of seeing armies based on historical events and movies. I was at one time considering creating a vampire counts army based on the nightmare before christmas.
-Grutch
Alamo themed army? That's awesome. Hmmm. How about an American Civil War themed Guard army? Heheheheh....
You may or may not have seen a picture somewhere in White Dwarf somewhere, but there's a Halloween themed VC army with trick-or-treaters as zombies and a Cinderella-like carriage for a Black Coach. It's really cool and very orange. I think there was a picture of wolves in WD somewhere called "Transformation" or something along those lines for GD Canada coverage.
A Nightmare Before Christmas theme sounds really cool.
The problem I have is whenever I hear ideas for themes I want to buy a bunch of models and build that army. Good practice in self-restraint I guess.
Having no time or money also helps.
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I've finally painted the first model. A few more and I think I'll have a method and rhythm down.
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y235/Ataxi/1812/Handgunnerfin.jpg
Multiply by 64.
Comments appreciated.
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Well, you *are* making a pretty good effort out of this! Sure it won't fit in the Warhammer World per sé, but is a great eyecatcher and a lot of fun to do if you're into conversions on a massive scale :-D
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I'd either paint the lower leg (below the knee) black to represent the gailtors, or paint the legs as a whole a mid grey to represent overalls.
Two web sites that show both versions of legwear are the....
Connaught Rangers (http://www.88thfoot.co.uk)
or the
71st Highland Light Infantry (http://www.71hli.co.uk)
Rene Chartrand has done a fantastic bok in the Osprey series on Canadian forces of the War of 1812
http://www.ospreypublishing.com/title_detail.php?title=P7414&ser=MAA
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I'd either paint the lower leg (below the knee) black to represent the gailtors, or paint the legs as a whole a mid grey to represent overalls.
Two web sites that show both versions of legwear are the....
Connaught Rangers (http://www.88thfoot.co.uk)
or the
71st Highland Light Infantry (http://www.71hli.co.uk)
Rene Chartrand has done a fantastic bok in the Osprey series on Canadian forces of the War of 1812
http://www.ospreypublishing.com/title_detail.php?title=P7414&ser=MAA
Thanks for the suggestions. I painted this more or less according to a uniform I've worn (including that bleedin' leather neck stock).
In that we tucked our gaiters under our pants because over top looked wierd. :wink:
Of course there are all kinds of variations. It depends where the force is from and their purpose.
But don't get involved in anything where you have to march around in the hot sun in a uniform. Especially with a wool jacket. That's ain't fun.