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The Campaign Archive => Nemesis Crown Board => Topic started by: Rufas the Eccentric on April 26, 2007, 09:00:14 PM

Title: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Rufas the Eccentric on April 26, 2007, 09:00:14 PM
I am renaming this thread as the topic has moved beyond the dwarf/Ogre alliance to encompas all potential alliances.


http://www.bugmansbrewery.com/forum/Greetings-Dwarf-Thinlingsand33-t17050.html

The Ogres have offered an Alliance with the Dwarves of Bugman's Brewery.  I'm not that big on the  entire campaign thing but thought you would like to know.  Your faithful spy, Rufas the E. 
Title: Re: Potential Dwarf/Ogre Alliance
Post by: Veldemere on April 27, 2007, 09:22:47 AM
Peachy! Lets get the Woodies on side then to help us deal with the Brets.
Title: Re: Potential Dwarf/Ogre Alliance
Post by: Powder Monkey on April 27, 2007, 11:08:27 AM
Yes, let's have the Wood Elves join! We can propably use them to escort our big forest burning warmachine to places we want to turn into scorched wastelands. That'll make the woodies happy!  :icon_biggrin:

Your PM
Title: Re: Potential Dwarf/Ogre Alliance
Post by: Veldemere on April 27, 2007, 11:13:53 AM
My Mummy told me not to play with matches so I have still not bought into this whole torching our livlehoods, but then I also do not use napalm to make toast. The reason I was thinking of the woodies was because they would support us in not allowing the cheese munchers in taking our land.
Title: Re: Potential Dwarf/Ogre Alliance
Post by: Rufas the Eccentric on April 27, 2007, 02:33:14 PM
If you want to get the wood elves on board, then a formal proposal "in charachter" would be best.  The Ogres certainly went all out in their approach to the Dwarves.
Title: Re: Potential Dwarf/Ogre Alliance
Post by: Tostig on April 27, 2007, 08:11:06 PM
I see no reason why it shouldn't be possible. Here's a quick (and I mean quick. I'm also not entirely sober, which doesn't help.) mock up of what we could pull off. Not knowing what to write, I C&Ped some Shakespeare:

(http://img409.imageshack.us/img409/4509/scrollquickdj3.gif)

If I was doing it properly I'd probably use one of the detached seals they had, to be more authentic, and perhaps a more medieval typeface, or otherwise hand write it (my handwriting's pretty cursive, as conspicuous can attest. I just can't get it to work as well on my tablet), and make the Karl Franz either more signature like, or an elaborate set of initials. Making it a .png would probably help with the edges, but at the expense of some types of IE not being able to handle it. What are we looking for, cartoony or authentic?

And if some fluffbunny could script it, or at least give me some basics to elaborate upon, it would help.
Title: Re: Potential Dwarf/Ogre Alliance
Post by: Wyzer1 on April 27, 2007, 10:12:19 PM
My Mummy told me not to play with matches so I have still not bought into this whole torching our livlehoods, but then I also do not use napalm to make toast. The reason I was thinking of the woodies was because they would support us in not allowing the cheese munchers in taking our land.
you dont use napalm to make toast? how else can you?

Anyways, @tostig   cool letter thing
Title: Re: Potential Dwarf/Ogre Alliance
Post by: Powder Monkey on April 27, 2007, 11:48:34 PM
Wait a minute, do we (= the majority of the forum members who are going to participate in the campaign) actually want the wood elves to be our allies? I can see the benefits, but they would object to many of our already decided upon (I think...) mission statements: Burning tainted areas, building forts in the forest and clearing all the nice shady trees next to the roads come to mind... I would also not bet on them to be excited over an alliance with us short sighted, technology worshipping environmentists (No, I don't think this is actually a word too  :icon_confused:)

With High Elves and Dwarfs I see much common ground: All of those just want the crown to be in the hands of someone who could stop it from wreaking havoc on the old world, either destroying, hiding or using it in case it could be done for the good of all. We just have slightly different opinions as to who exactly that would be...  :icon_biggrin:

The Wood Elves, however, are just pissed that everybody is suddenly galivanting around their precious forest, leaving candy bar wrappings and pulling off twigs of cute little trees. This group of tree-disturbers would also include us, the Empire, as I see the WE as almost entirely neutral to the world outside their realm.

Whew, this turned into a much post than I intended. Do not think I entirely oppose the idea of an alliance with the WE, in fact I like the thought! But it would be difficult in terms of fluff as well as in terms of actually getting the WE players and the rest of our Empire players here to cooperate. If someone comes up with a reasonable fluff for a cooperation and the majority here is favoring it, then by all means proceed!

Your forest loving, tree jumping PM
Title: Re: Potential Dwarf/Ogre Alliance
Post by: Powder Monkey on April 28, 2007, 12:01:58 AM
Another thought about alliances: One race that would more likely be supporting the Empire are the Lizardmen! They are still undecided as of who to support, but maybe we can convince them to help us keeping the crown from falling into the wrong hands (= not ours). We could together with some Lizard communities secure the crown and either destroy it ourselves (and with a little help by a second generation slann or two) or see to it that it reaches the dwarfs for them to bother themselves with it.

Or another idea, unfortunately to big to pull of for fan communities: Why not secretly send the crown to the Lizardmen for them to bury it in the deepest vault of the biggest pyramid, where the heaviest slann will permanently sit on it while taking a nap for a few thousand years? This would end this nemesis crown business once and for all, because who would want to wear a crown no matter how powerful once a giant toad sat on it for hundreds of years?  :smile2:

I'm getting carried away...

Your nemesis PM
Title: Re: Potential Dwarf/Ogre Alliance
Post by: Jerok on April 28, 2007, 12:34:41 AM
I believe that, since it follows our Mission Statement, we should also try for an alliance with the Dwarfs. A Power Triangle of Ogres, Human and Dwarfs (Tallest to Shortest, obviously) would be great and reasonably fluffy.

Of course, the WE would be interesting to ally with, but I don't like the thought of having to attend tea parties the night before a battle... i'd prefer good dwarven ale in front of the magically transmitted Blood Bowl match.

I'll be putting this in the voting thread...
Title: Re: Potential Dwarf/Ogre Alliance
Post by: Demonslayer on April 28, 2007, 11:26:21 AM
Quote
Wait a minute, do we (= the majority of the forum members who are going to participate in the campaign) actually want the wood elves to be our allies?

After the last few campaigns I'd rather not side with any elves of any kind. Damn SPE's!

Personal feelings aside, I think PM is right about this; the WE aren't going to form an alliance with anyone who wants to harm the forest. which is pretty much what we're doing. However I'm also not trusting the High Elves on this; the crown is pretty damn powerful, and since they're so full fot ehmselves they'll probably want it very bad, "because they're the only ones who can handle it". Which would upset the dwarfs. And I'm much more looking forward to teaming up with the dwarfs than with the high elves.
Title: Re: Potential Dwarf/Ogre Alliance
Post by: Tostig on April 28, 2007, 10:21:58 PM
I have to say I'm not too keen on the pointy eared gits either. What if we were instead to propose an alliance with, say, the Brettonians. They may be arrogant, backwards, stuck up dogs, but at least they're human. Looking at it more rationally, neither of us could deal with the Crown on own own, we have strong trading links and have both worked together a lot in the past. Sure, things can get a bit rough on the border at times, but what else are hot-headed young nobles for?

As for the lizardmen - I'm not sure exactly how we'd go about it. Send off a young Estalian covered in tomato sauce? They're culture is just so alien to the Empire, and I'm not entirely sure as to what they might want from an alliance.

Dividing the traditionally 'good' races, as they've done, was a good idea in my opinion. It means we all have to think ;)
Title: Re: Potential Dwarf/Ogre Alliance
Post by: Rufas the Eccentric on April 29, 2007, 10:52:26 PM
I have to say I'm not too keen on the pointy eared gits either. What if we were instead to propose an alliance with, say, the Brettonians. They may be arrogant, backwards, stuck up dogs, but at least they're human. Looking at it more rationally, neither of us could deal with the Crown on own own, we have strong trading links and have both worked together a lot in the past. Sure, things can get a bit rough on the border at times, but what else are hot-headed young nobles for?

Have you looked at the background material from GW?   The Bretonnian reason for joining the campaign is that there King has run out of land to give to worthy Nobles. 

With wood elves, we have the common goal of clearing chaos from the forest.  We can also confirm their rights to those portions of the forrest they already claim.  They may be more inclined to necessary measures elsewhere in the forest, if they know their land are secure.

I also think an alliance with the High Elves should be considered.  The Dwarves are already talking about this.  So 1. we need to to keep them off our backs.  2.  The Crown may be useful, but it is also highly dangerous.  If the dangers can be eliminated fine.  Otherwise, the magical expertise of the elves may be necessary to destroy or neutralize the danger. 3.  The combined Imperial and Elvish fleets can protect the costland from Norse and Dark Elf raiders.  A special concern in Nordland. 

Oh and the scroll is nice work.  But we should  decide on a draft quickly.  Does anyone want the honor of serving as ambassador?
Title: Re: Potential Dwarf/Ogre Alliance
Post by: Veldemere on April 30, 2007, 09:12:53 AM
I agree the HE would be good allies, but I was assuming they would not turn against us anyway as they have always supported us. I was merely hoping to get someone to act as a speed bump for the Brets as the last thing we need when going to war is the whiff of cheese up the rear!
Title: Re: Potential Dwarf/Ogre Alliance
Post by: stretch_135 on April 30, 2007, 11:42:58 AM
I'll volunteer as an ambassador, unless someone with more standing on the board (i.e., a higher post count lol) wants to.
Title: Re: Potential Dwarf/Ogre Alliance
Post by: Reynard_of_Bogenhafen on May 01, 2007, 06:17:11 AM
I'd like too also, being from the great confleunce and representing huss in all his pious glory.

They're in our sector background wise, and I'm not pushing for burning trees, just the heretics that hide in and around them!

"To the lord of leaf and bough,
                                          We beseech you in this time of darkness to aide us in the slaying of the dark kindred, the usurpers of the north, and despoilers of the great forests. our causes are of mutual interest, together we stand forever as hard as oak. The choice is yours, aide us if you will. We stand forever around you.

Karl Franz"

Veiled threat at the end, if they don't support us we just swamp them. they stand with us they are guaranteed support and a place in the woods forever...

what does anyone else think?
Title: Re: Potential Dwarf/Ogre Alliance
Post by: Veldemere on May 01, 2007, 07:47:42 AM
Just as a note, if we were to try and get the woodies on board there is no point in asking them to try and wipe out chaos as they will do that anyway, the alliance is to serve one purpose; keep the Brets out of our Empire! The protection of their forest is one way to go but I suspect that they are just like any other group of players and have a dislike of the Brets.
Title: Re: Potential Dwarf/Ogre Alliance
Post by: wissenlander on May 01, 2007, 12:37:21 PM
Unless the Brets are actually going through Loren, I don't see the Wood Elves caring.  They seem to have an official 'neutral' standing in just about everything.  There are pockets here and there throughout the Empire of Woodies, but not enough to do any real damage.  Still, if we could convince them to side with us that would be cool.
Title: Re: Potential Dwarf/Ogre Alliance
Post by: Tostig on May 01, 2007, 05:13:39 PM
I've toned it down to re-emphasise the Empire as defending itself, and to apologise for any destruction of the woods we may 'accidentally' cause. What do you think?
Quote
"To the lord of leaf and bough,
                                          We beseech you in this time of darkness to aide us in the slaying of the dark kindred, the usurpers of the north, and despoilers of the great forests. Despite what foul mutters come from the mouths of axe-wielding dwarves, we do not encroach into your hallowed woods out of greed or thirst for power, but rather to defend our homes, our lands and our loved ones from that which might try to destroy them. Our causes are of mutual interest, together we stand forever as hard as oak. The choice is yours, aide us if you will, but we would entreat you not to punish us for doing our good work, and for this our labours will be all the less strenuous in the shade of your branches.
                                         To this end our men are under order not to damage your wholesome woods; however we ask your forgiveness for any damage we may inadvertently cause while rooting out and purging the taint in the forest. We stand forever around you.

Karl Franz"

Hmm, how does this (http://img114.imageshack.us/img114/3636/scrolltm2.jpg) look?
Title: Re: Potential Dwarf/Ogre Alliance
Post by: Rufas the Eccentric on May 01, 2007, 07:30:49 PM
May want to add something to the effect:

Be it known that the Empire respects the just claim that the Wood Elves to their lands within the Laurelorn Forest in perpetuity.  The Imperial forces will not enter the boundaries mark by waystones without specific invitation of the leaders of the Laurelorn communityand that Imperial law shall aggressively punish any citizen who may do so, should he survive the righteous arrows of the Laurelorn Elves.
Title: Re: Potential Dwarf/Ogre Alliance
Post by: Wyzer1 on May 01, 2007, 08:43:24 PM
How about this:

Scorched Earth Policy  :evil:

Eh, cant we find anyone better to ally with? Lets ally with orcs!

Well, at least the tree's will be on our side I guess. Whatever, Wood Elves as an ally are better than no ally at all.
Title: Re: Potential Dwarf/Ogre Alliance
Post by: Reynard_of_Bogenhafen on May 01, 2007, 11:45:09 PM
Yep that definately better!

Who do we approach with this anyways?
Title: Re: Potential Dwarf/Ogre Alliance
Post by: Veldemere on May 02, 2007, 09:07:18 AM
good call Rufas. Who wants to work on the draft to take over to the Woodies forum?

re the scorched earth policy we are better served using our troops to fight rather than the impossible and unrealistic destruction of forests (think of global warming). Even if the forests were destroyes the beastmen would just go elsewhere (mountains / scrublands) what do we do then, flatten the mountains? I agree fully with clearing the sides of the major roads and forts. It is like having a mouse problem in your house, you do not destroy your house so they have nowhere to hide, destroy their breeding stock and slowly reduce their numbers.
Title: Re: Potential Dwarf/Ogre Alliance
Post by: farmer on May 02, 2007, 01:12:39 PM
STOP  :Ohmy: IF we have to side with any body it HAS to be the High Elves. Do we forget so easily my brothers.  Who was it that helped Maguns in The Great War against chaos. Who was it that showed us how to use magic. They were there again in the SoC fighting and dieing beside us. Now they send a fleet to guard (Rufas's Beloved Nordloand) the Northen Empire when everyone else is invading us. We should be sending our envoys to the lands of the Phoenix Kings.

The Wood elves can't be trusted. They have never been able to make alliance's before because of there way of thinking. They have air of superiority and as far as I'm concerned it stinks.  :icon_twisted:

If you go ahead with this wood elf alliance I promise you that after this war they will be here to stay. Turning on us for using the woods for our forts and our war machines that we are so proud of. Things are hard enough fighting with the Bestmen. The last thing we need is another faction fighting us on our doorstep. :ph34r:
Title: Re: Potential Dwarf/Ogre Alliance
Post by: wissenlander on May 02, 2007, 01:44:14 PM
Such a diplomat. 

Ok, here's my take on the situation as it stands...

Woodies:  I don't think they have any reason to help us out.  The majority are in the Loren, just a small bit in the Lorelorn.  If there coud be an alliance formed, as said earlier, it would be grand...but unless the Woodies are themselves threatened, they won't act.  They'll kill envoys as they approach, before they can even say why they're there.

High Elves:  While a bit haughty, aren't completely stupid.  They have been good allies in the last bit and it would be wise to try to side with them as well.  Only issue is that I can see them looking down upon humans for not realizing the great threat that the Crown presents.  Much like the Dwarfs.  If it wasn't for the long standing grudge between the High Elves and the Dwarfs, they'd have the largest claim under the campaign scope to work together.

Brets:  Won't side with us.  Bloody 'Crusade' of theirs.

Dwarfs:  Have every reason to side with us, considering our long standing friendship.  The only reason they 'won't' is because they think we are too ignorant about the evil of the Crown (and the fact that GW wants everyone to fight everyone). 

Ogres:  Even though it is supposed to be every race for itself, I could see the Ogres as allies.  They want to fight and eat, so just offer up the right price and tell them to go bash everyone that tries to enter our lands.

Lizards:  Too distant.  As stated previously, no common ground to work off of.  They would maybe think the Crown was one of their artifacts anyway and try to reclaim it.

Everyone else:  Their evil and have their own reasons that they'd want the crown.  All centering around ruling the world...



Title: Re: Potential Dwarf/Ogre Alliance
Post by: farmer on May 02, 2007, 02:38:10 PM
@ Wissenlander I wouldn't say the High Elves look down on us. They just have our best interests at heart like a mother to her son.  :engel:  If it alliance of their's with the Woodelves happens  you can bet that it will up us southern plains boys (I'm, Averland) and you to sort this mess out.
Title: Re: Potential Dwarf/Ogre Alliance
Post by: The Chosen Pistolier on May 02, 2007, 03:54:13 PM
The dwarfs are making diplomatic thrusts in other places as well. (http://www.woodelves.org/viewtopic.php?t=7165&highlight=)

If we want to do anything with the woodies (and stop people speaking bad of us), we better have do it soon. I'll probably not participate in the campaign, but I will always report dutifully to the imperial crown.

/Your own wood elf scout
Title: Re: Potential Dwarf/Ogre Alliance
Post by: wissenlander on May 02, 2007, 04:06:33 PM
Thanks for that TCP.  I read it over, and as of now it's divided amongst the Woodies.  The Dwarf speaks as though they have forgotten the aid we have long given them.  These are troubling times indeed...
Title: Re: Potential Dwarf/Ogre Alliance
Post by: Rufas the Eccentric on May 02, 2007, 05:28:01 PM
We need to get going on the potential alliances.  If any one wishes to to serve as an ambassador take the initiative and do it.
Title: Re: Potential Dwarf/Ogre Alliance
Post by: wissenlander on May 02, 2007, 05:42:29 PM
Does anyone here have any affiliation with others who would potentially be our allies?  That may help us hammer out an agreement.  I don't have any.  I did play High Elves like six years ago now...
Title: Re: Potential Dwarf/Ogre Alliance
Post by: stretch_135 on May 03, 2007, 05:49:21 AM
OK, I'm signing up on Asur.org to act as ambassador to the High Elves. Let me know if there's anything I need to pass along (salutations and an alliance offer are going to be part of my intro over there, no need to worry about that)
Title: Re: Potential Dwarf/Ogre Alliance
Post by: Veldemere on May 03, 2007, 07:59:25 AM

Thanks for the breakdown, if I could just add a little to it on the other side;

High Elves- I was assuming they would have their own agenda but still support us. The one thing they would not allow is us to keep the crown (if we wanted to).

Brets- They want our land!

Dwarfs- Already been set against us by GW

Ogres- Already standing with the Dwarfs

Lizzies- Major language barriers, not to be trusted.

If you read the strand I have consistantly said that the HE alliance is a good thing and should happen anyway.

The very reason I suggested the Woodies was not a full alliance but to serve 1 purpose, to stop the Brets from stealing from the southern parts of the Empire. We already know they are coming for our land we do not want 2 enemies behind us fighting on a second front. If the Woodies could be persueded to keep the Brets at bay we can concentrate on killing Chaos and greenskins!
Title: Re: Potential Dwarf/Ogre Alliance
Post by: cisse on May 03, 2007, 12:08:12 PM
OK, I'm signing up on Asur.org to act as ambassador to the High Elves. Let me know if there's anything I need to pass along (salutations and an alliance offer are going to be part of my intro over there, no need to worry about that)
I'm already a member of that site (same names as here), so let me know if you need something. I was a battle group commander in the campaign that was ran on Asur.org the past few months, and I have the msn of some of their site admins and most active members.

That said, I think we should try and make at least a truce with the dwarves. We could also try and offer an alliance to the ogre kingdoms, if we can have a truce with dwarves there's no reason ogres couldn't be allied to the both of us.
Title: Re: Potential Dwarf/Ogre Alliance
Post by: Veldemere on May 03, 2007, 12:47:40 PM
I think we should at least approach the woodies today, unless anyone has a serious objection?
Title: Re: Potential Dwarf/Ogre Alliance
Post by: Rufas the Eccentric on May 03, 2007, 04:05:11 PM
OK, I'm signing up on Asur.org to act as ambassador to the High Elves. Let me know if there's anything I need to pass along (salutations and an alliance offer are going to be part of my intro over there, no need to worry about that)

I would pass on the salutations.  Remind them of our longstanding gooed relations, that we are aware that their is a very powerful artifact hidden on our land, and are unsure as to it's benefits and dangers, and seek to collaberate with them to insure of it's safe disposition.  If the artifact is determined to be safe, then the Emperor shall use it to hold back the tides of chaos.  Otherwise it will be permanently held in the vaults in the College of Light  with other dangerous artifacts.   Point out the dangers of the item falling in to thhe hands of the Orcs or the Goblins and the many Elves who hhave fallen to the Dwarves in ancient times.

In flowery polite language of course.
Title: Re: Potential Dwarf/Ogre Alliance
Post by: Rufas the Eccentric on May 03, 2007, 04:12:09 PM

Thanks for the breakdown, if I could just add a little to it on the other side;

High Elves- I was assuming they would have their own agenda but still support us. The one thing they would not allow is us to keep the crown (if we wanted to).
Maybe if it were secured in the College of Light.  At this point we do not know if this is useful or dangerous

Brets- They want our land!
Kill the all, All the more reason to enlist the  woodies.

Dwarfs- Already been set against us by GW
But maybe we can work together to beat up on the greenskins first with the  understanding that we are not renouncing our rightful claim to the Crown

Ogres- Already standing with the Dwarfs
Opportunity lost.  All the more reason to move as fast as possible on other alliances.

Lizzies- Major language barriers, not to be trusted.
No one is to be trusted, but if there not our allies, they will be some one elses allies.  Keep your friends close and your enemies closer.

If you read the strand I have consistantly said that the HE alliance is a good thing and should happen anyway.
We still need to make it happen

The very reason I suggested the Woodies was not a full alliance but to serve 1 purpose, to stop the Brets from stealing from the southern parts of the Empire. We already know they are coming for our land we do not want 2 enemies behind us fighting on a second front. If the Woodies could be persueded to keep the Brets at bay we can concentrate on killing Chaos and greenskins!
Yep.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Tostig on May 03, 2007, 04:51:08 PM
Quote
Good health to the Lords across the sea.

For many a year now our two races have stood side by side against those evils which would overwhelm us both, and so in our time of need it is to you that we now turn to for help and for good guidance. Within our borders lies a powerful and dangerous artefact. There are those amongst us who claim that it can be used benevolently, to fight back against the forces that made it, while others claim it is a corrupting menace which much be destroy. We seek your counsel and guidance then as a trusted ally and a close friend of these lands.

If it is decided that we can harness this trinket, we would only seek it to use it to repulse the chaos spawn from our borders, and otherwise we seek either to permanently secure it within the vaults of our esteemed College of Light, or forsake it for some weaker fool. However we would rather the first, for if it were to fall into the green-skinned hands of Orcs who ravage our homes and murder our families, they could threaten our ability to carry on our fight against Chaos. Equally we are wary of it being kept by the Dwarfs, those grudge-bearing people driven by greed, who might seek to use it against those who have before stood abreast with them against the tides from the North.

We therefore look to you in our time of need, and hope that you might resume out nation's understanding with renewed vigour.

And here's the picture (http://img70.imageshack.us/img70/3198/elvesscroll2lo9.jpg), that do you?
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Northern Child on May 03, 2007, 05:02:12 PM
What about another tact ?

Happen to mention on a tomb kings site that you noticed a large sarcophagus in Brettonia or on a Skaven site that you think now would be the ideal time to gain a few more Karaks/underground lairs ??
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: The Chosen Pistolier on May 03, 2007, 05:03:15 PM
There has been a post (http://www.woodelves.org/viewtopic.php?t=7201&highlight=) on asrai.org by someone to (not me).

The reactions are mixed, but not all bad. The main issue seems to be that they do not want us to actually get the crown. How to proceed now?
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Tostig on May 03, 2007, 05:05:52 PM
Hmm, as we did to the high elves - we would not make any decisions on our own, only with the guidance of those more knowledgeable in the arcane arts than us - the elves. That we would try to hold it safely in our College of Light, and that if that is impractical that we will be glad to rid the world of it.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Veldemere on May 03, 2007, 05:19:20 PM
I feel the way to proceed is to make assurance we do not want the crown and did not ask for it to be within the Empire, our soldiers were already committed to clearing the forests of the Empire of the taints of Chaos.

Also possibley worth mentioning the expantionist plans of the Brets (land stealing cheese munchers), and how this will start impinging on them as they get greedier. Their 'crusade' is land theft our mission is purely protecting our innocent.

Possibly laying it a bit thick but might work.

Possibly something about kindred with shared problems of chaos taint in woodland not like dwarves with their mountains and plans to destroy the crown (they made it, who is to say this wasn't their plan all along to keep men at bay, we all know how long they can hold grudges for!).
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: wissenlander on May 03, 2007, 05:24:06 PM
The Woodies seem to have a tie with the Brets, some sort of agreement at least.  And I believe it to be Reynard of Bogenhafen who made the first move to contact the Woodies.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Tostig on May 03, 2007, 05:35:33 PM
And for the Dwarfs:
Quote
Great sires beneath the mountains,
                     For many generations our two races have stood shoulder to shoulder, armed with axe and halberd, kinsmen against the waves of green and black that would overwhelm us. It had been so since Sigmar of the Unberogen first raised his hammer aloft and fought together with your ancestors, and we had hoped it would be so for many seasons to come.
                     The news that this ancient alliance of our peoples had been trampled on in such a way was dispiriting enough – that it was done so for a mere trinket is shameful. However it seems that we cannot come to an agreement as to the best course of action, and the troops of the Thorgrim Grudgebearer march down the Old Dwarf Road, bearing bare steel as his warriors stride through our lands. It is therefore with a heavy heart that the troops of the Empire take up their arms yet again in order to defend their homes, wives and sovereignty against those who would seek to destroy them. These last seasons we have fought against raiding Elf, plundering Orc and devastating Chaos, but the prospect of a war against our brothers in arms fills us with the most dread.
                     If we are doomed to slay our fellow peoples by circumstances we cannot control, we beseech you to not inflict our foolishness upon the innocents of the Empire, and in exchange we shall treat those Dwarf kindred of yours who live within the walls and cities of our dominions with the utmost respect and hospitality. If, by fortune, there is some chance of us coming to a peaceful and mutually beneficial agreement about this bauble, we implore that your aged wisdom will allow you to send word to us at once.
                     There is still hope that the axe and the halberd go to war on the same side once more.
        Karl Franz

The picture (http://img70.imageshack.us/img70/2449/scrolldwarfsdb6.jpg). You like?
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: General Romanov on May 03, 2007, 05:40:14 PM
The Dwarfs would be the best to ally with in my opionion despite the tenson that has been building

The WE are to isolated to join with us or agree to anything unless they have a reason to fear the crown...and then they'ed take matters into their own thin hands

The High Elves have pledged assisstance in the recovery but they would attempt to take control of the operation I think

The Bretonnians are invading and proved they are untrustworthy

The Lizardfolk are to far away and I don't see how they can assisst us now

So i vote to try and get an allianc ewith the Dwarfs
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: wissenlander on May 03, 2007, 05:49:57 PM
As of now:

The Dwarfs and Ogres look to have strong ties.

The Dwarfs were talking about working with the orcs on fluff, but doesn't look like it's panning out.  Also there looks to be some communication between the Dwarfs and the Lizards.

The Woodies are torn between us and the Dwarfs. 

The Brettonians and the Woodies have some sort of agreement, what it is I'm not totally sure of yet.

The High Elves are yet undecided, but I think they lean more towards us.

I'm scowering different forums to see if I can throw my weight in on any issue, but right now the Dwarfs, High Elves and Wood Elves seem to be sorting things out for themselves.

I'll continue my search and see what I can find.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Demonslayer on May 03, 2007, 05:53:51 PM
Well, I guess someone will have to do the more unconventional proposals, in addition to the conventional ones already discussed;

Quote
- Vampire Counts - Some hidden Vampire was worried he was going to be found, so he got a bunch of others from Sylvania to try and invade. Basicly the undead are just kinda there.

A vampire cornered in our lands. He could either struggle to make it out alive (kind of), or... we could enlist him. Not the most Sigmarite thing to do, but the only reason he's becoming hostile towards us is because he feels threathened. If we convince him that he's not on our black list, he might turn towards other, more immediate threats. Maybe even the threats we propose to him.

In the end, we could always turn on him and finish him off. After all, he'll be a lot easier to find when he's our ally :icon_wink:.

(Somehow I just KNOW there's something in the fluff about VC which hasn't come to my attention yet. Something that will completely ruin this plan. But heck.)

Quote
- Dark Elves - They don't have the strength to attack for the crown directly, but they are upping their raids on the coasts for slaves etc.

So they're not going after the crown. That basically gets them off our back, except for the fact that they'll be attacking our undefended coast cities. So how about a proposal; we pay them so that they do not attack us, but the northern coasts instead. Get them to fight chaos instead of us.

All of this should happen in secrecy, of course. We don't want the "council of light" to find out we're allying with the bad guys. Still I think that these races could prove to be useful allies, especially since they're "there to be there". This adds a whole new dimension of fluff for them.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Tostig on May 03, 2007, 05:56:49 PM
In my opinion we ought to aim for:
Non-aggression pact with the Dwarfs and their allies.
An alliance, or non-aggression pact with the Wood Elves
An alliance with the High Elves.
An realpolitikian pact with the Brettonians - "You have knights who need land, we have untamed land and a need for fighting men." I think we can come to some kind of an arrangement.

Do you want me to right something for the Bretts?
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: cisse on May 03, 2007, 06:07:35 PM
Quote
If it is decided that we can harness this trinket, we would only seek it to use it to repulse the chaos spawn from our borders, and otherwise we seek either to permanently secure it within the vaults of our esteemed College of Light, or forsake it for some weaker fool. However we would rather the first, for if it were to fall into the green-skinned hands of Orcs who ravage our homes and murder our families, they could threaten our ability to carry on our fight against Chaos.

And here's the picture (http://img70.imageshack.us/img70/3198/elvesscroll2lo9.jpg), that do you?
That sentence seems a little unclear to me ("we would rather the first"). Anyway, most peeps at Asur.org seem to have doubts about letting us have the crown, but we'll see how it turns out. Would you like me to post that picture?

@ Demonslayer: not sure about that vampire, but good call about the Druchii... Perhaps something could be arranged. Anyone who would like to go to Druchii.net and see what can be done?

@ Tostig: realpolitik with the Bret's - sure, their knights may cleanse parts of the forests and settle themselves there. They may not, however, occupy or conquer any of our already civilised regions (even the smallest village) - and the knights settling in the Empire would answer to the Emperor and not to that king of them anymore, of course. Otherwise we effectively lose a part of the Empire, something which I would not be happy with.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: wissenlander on May 03, 2007, 06:11:19 PM
If anyone has ties with another site, I say do some maneuvering.  I tried to post at Bugman's (just registered) but it wouldn't let me for some reason.

Right now we seem to be a bit behind on negotiations, we need to catch up.

I'll take a look over in the Dark Elf lands, but if anyone has a connection there feel free to make a move before I do.

Edit*  I have no idea what to offer the Dark Elves.  Their whole premise is that they should exploit a weakness in the coast line if they see one.  How are we going to get them to lay off Nordland if that is their one avenue of attack?
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Tostig on May 03, 2007, 06:17:22 PM
Quote
That sentence seems a little unclear to me ("we would rather the first"). Anyway, most peeps at Asur.org seem to have doubts about letting us have the crown, but we'll see how it turns out. Would you like me to post that picture?

I've patched it up a bit, this (http://img76.imageshack.us/img76/489/elvesscroll2tn0.jpg) better?

Quote
Would you like me to post that picture?

If you think it'd help things. I don't know much about the state of affairs there - I'm just trying to contribute at the moment, and so I'm open to requests :)
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: cisse on May 03, 2007, 06:32:15 PM
Yes, seems better to me. I'll post it and we'll see what happens. A little extra never hurts. :-)
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: wissenlander on May 03, 2007, 07:23:53 PM
The Dwarfs will soon be putting forth a treaty to the Lizards.  If that goes through (which looks good at this point) then that means Dwarfs, Lizards and Ogres will be united.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: nazgul12 on May 03, 2007, 07:27:35 PM
I think we should try to avoid calling the Bretonnian crusade an "invasion."  Their king declared that the knights would be trying to scour our forests of threats, and that's really no bad thing.  If a few Bretonnian noblemen take lands within our Empire, it's not the end of the world.  We should try to set up some kind of deal where those lords can hold lands (which otherwise might have been lost to orcs, bandits, or worse) but will respect the sovereignty of the Empire and will answer to the Elector Count of the region in matters concerning those Imperial lands.  Perhaps something along the lines of "ok, you can have these lands, but you must pay tribute and contribute men-at-arms during times of war."

I think in this campaign the High Elves and Bretonnians are our natural allies, and we should strive for a truce with wood elves and dwarves.  Overtures to the lizardmen aren't a bad idea, but who can say what the cold minds of the lizardmen will decide?  At the very least though, we don't want a war with Bretonnia right now, we have far too much on our plate as it is!
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: wissenlander on May 03, 2007, 07:31:49 PM
I still can't get into Bugman's for some reason.  I'm going to go over to Brettonia and see what's up there.  If anyone can talk to the Dwarfs, please do so, I am unable to right now.

Edit*  I have extended a hand to the Brets.  I didn't make any promises, but hopefully we can open up negotiations here.  The Dwarfs have already sent an envoy...for guys with short legs they have messengers everywhere!
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: General Romanov on May 03, 2007, 08:04:04 PM
They do have gyrocopters! And they can march longer than any man.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Tostig on May 03, 2007, 08:05:50 PM
Quote
To the Noble Lords of the Lady,
In our time on need, the brave knights of Brettonia have often come to our aid. Many a time our call for arms has been met not only by halberd and handgun, but also by the glorious lance of our allies beyond the mountains. Your warriors marched with ours against the tides of Chaos these last few seasons, and for that we are grateful indeed; - the sight of our Knightly Orders and your noblemen riding abreast put fear into our enemies’ hearts, and the valour of your men was cried out throughout the land.
It is with a heavy heart, therefore, that we find ourselves taking up sword and shield once again. This time even those with whom we thought we were brothers in arms with have marched through our lands dressed for war. We seek to renew with vigour our alliances with those who we have always thought of as worthy friends.
Firstly, we must address the issue of this coronet that the Dwarf lords seek. Despite what slander and slurs they smear our name with, the Empire does not look for it out of greed, but rather so as to make this source of unholy power safe and to stop it from threatening our people and our lands any longer. If we were to find it before the vile green skins, we would intend to hold a council of the wise, and with their guidance decide if it might be used against the evil-doers. If not, we would seek to neutralise its evil influence, either within the vaults of our esteemed College of Light, or by handing it over to the elves of the East to dispose of.
Secondly, there is the matter of those Brettonian noblemen who have crossed into our lands on a blessed campaign against the foul beastmen and plundering orcs in our borders. We are thankful of their aid, and wish to remind you that the Empire has always been a tolerant nation, where there is freedom of conviction for those who do not look to Chaos; - as well as Sigmar we also have worshippers of Ulric, Myrmidia, Verena, Shallya and many others. We therefore look on this crusade with benevolence, and hope the best fortune to you and your Lady.
Thirdly, and quite separately, is the matter of these knights offering protection to settlements within the Empire. Why we are grateful for their concern as to our people’s safety, we would not with for matters of sovereignty to be questioned. However we do accept that knights need revenue to pay for war, which they would usually earn from feudal dues, and so we are willing to allow settlement of certain areas within our borders, on acceptance of the rule of the Empire over such lands. We have nobles of many creeds and tribes, and we welcome the idea of new families joining them from beyond the Axe Bite pass. We do not see why a private obligation as a vassal to a Brettonian liege, and being part of our Empire, are mutually incompatible. If this is unacceptable, we see no reason why we cannot provide financial assistance, so as to make your benevolent aid all the easier on the purse strings. We would remind you, however, that any individual within our borders who challenges the authority and legal reign of his Imperial Highness Karl Franz will be treated as an outlaw and an enemy. We trust, however, that this will not reflect on the noble lords of Brettonia or their blessed realm.

Your faithful ally,
   Karl Franz

I'll make a letter in a minute.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: wissenlander on May 03, 2007, 08:08:53 PM
I've posted once on their Tostig.  If you post your letter from the Emperor in that one it'll give it more credence.  I'm only a messenger from Wissenland and don't have the presence of the Emperor. :wink:

Edit*  It's been posted.  Now we wait and see what happens.

Oh, and we really need to do something over at Bugman's.  They're running amock over there and we have no representation.  Again, I can't login for some reason or else I'd be over there trying to defend ourselves.  If anyone can, please do.  I'm off for the day...
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Tostig on May 03, 2007, 08:50:09 PM
I've posted at Bugman's (http://www.bugmansbrewery.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=17211). Now I have to go off and revise for tomorrow, bloody synopsis exams :(
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: nazgul12 on May 03, 2007, 09:39:43 PM
I love the message to Brettonia!  It was extremely well written and thought out; I just hope they listen to it.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Stormbrow II on May 03, 2007, 10:15:11 PM
Good evening Gentlemen. 

I'm a resident at A.org and I'll most certainly be pushing for an Empire alliance (note the disclaimer: I am *not* an Ambassador).  There's already a group of us that will side with ye regardless of other things but I'm wondering do ye have a fluff team established so that we can integrate stories (to a point)?

I'll do my bit to ensure that said Alliance occurs.  We can't have those horrid little cave-dweling abominations getting the thing back now can we?  (The Dawi do seem to have a fetish for Crowns don't they?  They're clearly compensating...)
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: cisse on May 04, 2007, 02:33:44 AM
I've signed up at Bugman's as well, and tried to talk a bit with the members there. They seem willing to agree on a non-agression pact, and perhaps more. They have asked for a detailed proposal, could we make one up as soon as possible? Then we can start discussing the finer details of this. I think we're on the right track here, if we play this a bit smartly, we'll certainly be able to avoid a war with our old allies. An alliance might be more difficult, but we can see about that. I'd say we try to come up with a detailed proposal (promising support in stories we come up with etc,...) and see what happens.

This is where you can read what's going on: http://www.bugmansbrewery.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=17211&st=0&gopid=185565&#entry185565 (http://www.bugmansbrewery.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=17211&st=0&gopid=185565&#entry185565)

I've also done some talking at Asur.org, and there things are still in the balance. They seem to doubt between an alliance with the dawi or us. Thread can be found here: http://www.asur.org.uk/ulthuan/viewtopic.php?p=463089#463089 (http://www.asur.org.uk/ulthuan/viewtopic.php?p=463089#463089). Thanks Stormbrow for the support, we'll have to be really argumentative to secure an alliance I feel. It's really 50-50 now.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Veldemere on May 04, 2007, 10:11:09 AM
Thanks Stormbrow.

So, it looks like the Dwarves have offered pacts to every other race. Either this is going to be a completely bloodless campaign or they will renege on any deal.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: wissenlander on May 04, 2007, 11:56:45 AM
Yes, the Dwarfs have sent out messengers everywhere.  So far the Bretonians look to be in a non agressive stance towards us.  They do not agree with the GW stance of a crusade, especially such a weak crusade.  They think it's not their place to tinker with Imperial soveirgnty.  So a non agression pact looks imminent, but they have stated that it will take some time before they decide if they will join anyone in allegiance.  They are concerned with Setra attacking their shores.

This is very early, but that's the report from the Brets.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: cisse on May 04, 2007, 12:13:52 PM
Good news from the Bret's there, a non-agression pact (and their promise not to take any land from us in the fluff) would most certainly be welcome.

As for the dwarfs, still negotiating. A non-agression pact seems very likely, if we agree not to search for the Crown.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: wissenlander on May 04, 2007, 12:22:04 PM
I saw that.  I tried to respond, but still can't.  I'm going to contact the admins to see what the deal is with that.

I don't understand how they can have us not search for the crown.  I know of their concern, but if we do not search for it and one of our mutual enemies obtains it...

I read your posts Cisse, keep up the good work.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: cisse on May 04, 2007, 12:33:42 PM
I don't understand how they can have us not search for the crown.  I know of their concern, but if we do not search for it and one of our mutual enemies obtains it...
Well, it seems very important to them that we promise not to look for the Crown - not actively, that is. I think we can give them that, but if we have to fight one of the evil races to get it, we'll do so of course. It's something along these lines that I'm trying to pull off.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: wissenlander on May 04, 2007, 12:53:07 PM
Veldemere has stepped in over at Asrai.org.  The Woodies at this moment think that we are too weak of mind and fickle.  They lean towards assisting the Dwarfs and potentially a non agression pact with us.

It seems that's the major downfall for us right now.  Our weak and fickle nature.  The only thing we have going for us is the fact that we 'mean well' and are a mighty nation.  That being said, most people are looking towards non agression.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Veldemere on May 04, 2007, 01:35:41 PM
I am still trying with the woodies, not going too well though. We have to be careful about what we read. If the campaign says the Brets are looking to take land then that is what they will try to do whether they like it or not they have been set against us, if we do not do well in the campaign there will be a small part of the Empire forever smelling of fromage. They will not settle and become Imperial citizens, those getting the land will be the noble warriors most loyal to their king, they will not roll over and start sucking KF.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: wissenlander on May 04, 2007, 01:46:23 PM
Nothing seems to be going well for us right now.

The Asrai have started a poll and look to be either not wanting to take sides, or if'n they do it will be with the Dwarfs.

The Asur don't want us to have the crown, nor do the Dwarfs.  I am quite perturbed by the agression from the Dwarfs.  Only a few in their halls want to remain allies during this coming time.

The Brets that have spoken don't want to fight.  It doesn't hel the fact that the fluff has said they must, but they really think it's a low reason to invade another country.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Stormbrow II on May 04, 2007, 02:06:09 PM
Quote
Veldemere has stepped in over at Asrai.org.  The Woodies at this moment think that we are too weak of mind and fickle.  They lean towards assisting the Dwarfs and potentially a non agression pact with us.
Ask them if they'll take an offer of yourselves, themselves and the Asur as a group?  That might make things easier with the Bretonni regarding a non-aggression pact.

I wouldn't be giving up hope with the Woodies just yet - they have only had the one substantial offer so far so no wonder it looks good in their eyes.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Veldemere on May 04, 2007, 02:33:22 PM
Just to keep you up to date with Asrai, the dwarves seem to be offering to come in and clear out the forest then leave it to the woodies, is there any point in offering seccession of the great woods to the Asrai?
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: wissenlander on May 04, 2007, 02:45:47 PM
I don't know.  They have the Laurelorn or however you spells it.  I can't see anyone wanting to give over lands to anyone be it the Brets or the Woodies.  I posted on Asrai to see if I can lend a hand.  I didn't make any promises, but hope to snap people into their senses some.

Edit*  I didn't see your comment at first Nazgul12.  Thank you!  The first post was me, but the other two were Tostig, I just posted them for him.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Veldemere on May 04, 2007, 03:21:47 PM
So the Dwarves have put a deal to the Woodies saying they will not hurt the woodies if they give them free passage to the crown, and now they are asking us for the same deal in return the woodies get some towers (which will never happen in the final GW write up) and we are merely offered to not get killed, only got to get the greenskins and beasts on side and they will walk it. A lot of effort to go to to take something they made!
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: wissenlander on May 04, 2007, 03:40:07 PM
Ah, yes, I got to post at Bugman's!

Yeah, seems like we're getting the bum end of the deal.  We hear there's a dangerous trinket in our lands and everyone tells us to back off or we'll get the axe.  Sounds fun.  It really irks me that GW put this in motion like this, and I'm super shocked that most of the Dwarfs at Bugman's are supporting it!
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Narmo Eressea on May 04, 2007, 04:39:39 PM
Cisse and Wissenlander. Maybe you should explore the possibility of a long term agreement with Brets? And even if it sounds madly: Tomb Kings only want their magic items back. What if the Empire gave them what was theirs in exchange for their help?
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: wissenlander on May 04, 2007, 04:43:28 PM
If you can, scout out the Lizards.  That's really the only 'good guy' we haven't really approached as of yet.  I don't see any of the other races even listening at all, although I could be wrong.  It just seems too far fetched for Dark Elves or Chaos to talk to us on any sort of alliance.  If anyone has any ideas though, I'm game.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Demonslayer on May 04, 2007, 06:06:07 PM
About the druchii; sure they could be persuaded. All they want is to raid the coastlines and gather more slaves, right? Well then, why don't we give them what they want;

- They want to raid coastline cities. Fine by me. Just don't raid OUR coast. There's other coasts to consider, like those of norsca. The Druchii have a very real reason for attacking the lands of Chaos; namely to distract Chaos so that they do not take the crown. After all, Druchii won't like the idea of their neighbours having an artefact powerful enough to draw the attention of all the warhammer races. The Empire, on the other hand, doesn't want, need or seek the crown, so in the long run we'll pose less of a threat to them.
- They want slaves. Well, take them from the coasts of the chaos lands! In addition, as a token of our good will, we will take as many prisoners as possible and deliver them to the druchii.

@ Norma; No way. Giving an artefact of great power to someone who wants to conquer the whole world and turn everyone into undead minions is always a bad idea.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: wissenlander on May 04, 2007, 06:43:04 PM
Status Report:

Dwarfs have an alliance with the Ogres.  They look to be forming allegiances with the Lizards and the Woodies as well.  Also, the orcs are trying to get some sort of non agression worked out, how this works I have no idea.

The Brets have a stance of Non agression towards us.

High Elves are split.

Dwarfs, while maintaining they are allied with us and don't want to fight are going out of their way to make sure we stand alone.  At the moment they are considering renigging on the treaty and at best, non agression.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: wissenlander on May 04, 2007, 08:29:43 PM
My plea before I leave for the weekend...

If anyone has the time or the stomach.  Keep track of what is going on and make efforts to make alliances.  I post this because I will not be able to do anything to further our cause in the next two days.  Best of luck to you, I hope things go better than they have. 

I feel bad for anyone who hasn't checked on this thread in a couple of days, it got crazy quick and I'm sure it'll get even crazy before Monday.  Have fun! :-P
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Rufas the Eccentric on May 04, 2007, 09:29:17 PM
I saw your efforts on the brewery, It is stupid for us to get into such a fight with them that the greenskins get Crown.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: cisse on May 04, 2007, 11:29:42 PM
If the treaty the dwarfs have sent us is signed, an alliance with them is in the make. Let's hope they still want to sign it. Perhaps a few adjustments, but overall it's  fine I think. We should really put something in there about old oaths and alliances - dwarfs are big on oaths, but it seems they have forgotten the empires of Men and Dwarfs have made oaths together long ago. It'd be stupid not to ally imho, but we'll see.

What really bugs me here is some of the proposals that are made. Dwarfs and asrai uniting? Can't really see that happening, with dwarfs burning huge amounts of woods and asrai being elves (not a plus for a dwarf). Asur and dwarfs, because asur hope the dwarfs will give the phoenix crown back? Not a chance, they'd never do it, and yet they use it as a bargaining tool....

In that light, promising some prisoners to the druchii and having them raid the coasts of Norsca instead of ours, is really quite reasonnable. Demonslayer, we could try and see if it works. If not, well, no risk no gain. Hell, if we realy can't find allies among the good guys, druchii are something of our last hope I think, since I can't see us allying with any of the other races.

An agreement with bret's seems... odd. I'm sorry, but it's just that they are set against us in the fluff, and not indirectly as the dwarfs, but rather directly since they want to take our lands. Yes, we can make all sorts of alliances and agreements with them, but in the end, it's GW who decides whar the outcome of the campaign is. I say we try and do the best we can with them, but don't help them in any way (and if we can, stop them...).
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Stormbrow II on May 05, 2007, 12:41:58 AM
Quote
n that light, promising some prisoners to the druchii and having them raid the coasts of Norsca instead of ours, is really quite reasonnable.
:ph34r:
Hang on.  If ye go there I'll be off to some other factions and we will make a mess of the forest and stop ye getting the crown. I know desperate times call for desperate measures but that's a bit much.

Quote
High Elves are split.
That's overstating it.  Most of us are on your side already but the above certainly won't endear yourselves to us. 
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: cisse on May 05, 2007, 08:00:31 AM
:ph34r:
Hang on.  If ye go there I'll be off to some other factions and we will make a mess of the forest and stop ye getting the crown. I know desperate times call for desperate measures but that's a bit much.
While it certainly wouldn't win us any friends with the HE's, would it really be that bad if a sort of deal can be made with the Druchii? After all, it's not an alliance, we just kind of point them in a different direction... In any case, this will have to be kept a secret... But I'm in favour of first trying to do the best we can with the other "good" races. If alliances can be made, all is well, and we don't need this kind of measures. If not...

EDIT: we really need a deal with the asur imho, since an alliance with dwarfs is becoming more impobable - non-agression is the best we can achieve there I think. Note: someone at Bugman's suggested the Empire approaches the Vampires, Khemri or even Chaos - but I'd rather fight alone than do so I think. We're still a sigmarite nation, and even other deities (ulric etc) don't like those peeps too well.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: General Romanov on May 05, 2007, 08:28:48 AM
The magic items within the College of Light are rare, expensive and if the undead want them, potentually VERY dangarous. We can't just give a bunch of walking bones ancient Kemri Artifacts they'ed most likly use them to attack the Old World.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Demonslayer on May 05, 2007, 05:34:53 PM
Quote
I know desperate times call for desperate measures but that's a bit much.


I disagree. The way it stands, we're pretty much on our own. If we can get one enemy race to stop attack us and start attacking another enemy race, then that's a win by my count.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: cisse on May 05, 2007, 05:48:11 PM
Quote
I know desperate times call for desperate measures but that's a bit much.


I disagree. The way it stands, we're pretty much on our own. If we can get one enemy race to stop attack us and start attacking another enemy race, then that's a win by my count.
There are nuances of course. The druchii can *perhaps* be dealt with, but just to ask them to attack another faction - not to really ally with them. And not only because it'd piss off the other pointy ears :wink:, but just because it'd be odd to side with the baddies. The other "evil" races (chaos, undead,...) are just a bridge too far to trade with, I think. Having them attacking each other is good, but offering them anything, especially powerfull magic items, is not done I think.

I posted a message in the DoW forum (Inquisition del Cobre), to ask if any of them would be willing to fight for a fitting reward. If any of you are a member of that site, you can always join in and support our cause.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Veldemere on May 05, 2007, 07:32:01 PM
Sorry, due to bank holiday weekend this will be the only post I can put in before Tuesday. I also feel it is a no to the TK and VC, anyone who benefits from us dying does not strike me as a good ally. Also a strong NO to the brets from me as GW has set them up to take our lands and no amount of fluff is going to change their minds.

Our strength lies with the elves (possibly lizzies but they are my bogey opponent so I am biased) the stunties ask too high a price (plus I am waiting for their non-aggression pact with Chaos Dwarves the dirty dealing little *****). But to all ambassadors keep it up, we are not doing well but it is no reflection on the effort you are putting in, please keep trying.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: cisse on May 05, 2007, 09:16:27 PM
Things are going to be tough with HE's, at the moment it's 60-40 in favour of an alliance with Dwarves instead of us.

Negotiations with Dwarves are falling a bit silent, but we'll keep trying.

Nothing heard from the DoW forum yet.

How's it going with Asrai and Lizardmen? Wood Elves have made an alliance with dwarves (and one which I'm actually quite furious at - not only is it totally against the nature of the two races to ally, but the dwarves have in fact promised them sovereignty of the Great Forest and the promise to kill any who defiles it - humans too). But perhaps we can make a deal as well. After all, we should remind them that even if the dwarves want to give them the Great Forest, it's still our land.

To be honest, I'm a it disgusted by some of the pacts the dwarves have made/are trying to make. And to add insult to insult, we're pushed by GW to fight against them, which kind of  puts us into a situation with no obvious allies.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Veldemere on May 05, 2007, 09:36:09 PM
Cisse, I congratulate your efforts but cannot help but agree with you, Woodie and Dwarf alliance not really likely in true terms, unless they have found an eraser that works in the book of grudges! Maybe we should consider offering potential allies ownership of the mountains as that seems to be the order of the day. Is it just me that thinks the entire membership of Bugmans are under the pay of GW to act so completely out of character just to keep the fluff going?
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: cisse on May 05, 2007, 09:54:09 PM
Offer potential allies ownership of the mountains? You're speaking of dwarf allies then?

In any case, we'll have to think about something to get the Woodies on our side. The dwarves have made them a proposal, and they seem to be going to ratify it. But... The Great Forest is not theirs to give to the WE's, nor would it be possible for them to promise killing any human who defies the Forest, without breaking the ancient oaths of alliance between the Empire and Dwarfs. Maybe you need to point that out.

What can we offer WE's? Obviously, we could offer them some pieces of the Forest. More probably, we can offer them to acknowledge their sovereignty of the pieces they already inhabit. We should also remind them that it is us who do the main fighting against the beastmen in these forests; their old enemies.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Veldemere on May 05, 2007, 10:04:05 PM
Sorry didn't make myself clear, I meant giving the Dwarves land away as part of our treaties as they are giving ours away!

I was hoping to be able to offer the WE the heart of the great forest as part of a treaty if no-one has any objections.

Just to point out that dogs and cats will soon be the closest of friends the High Elves have now offered the Woodies an alliance!
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: cisse on May 05, 2007, 10:25:18 PM
I was hoping to be able to offer the WE the heart of the great forest as part of a treaty if no-one has any objections.
Do so. Remind them that the dwarves cannot give them anything, and that they can't even hold true to their word of kiliing us if we defile the Forest (which we would never do, of course...): that'd mean they have to dye their hair orange due to breaking an oath of alliance.

Propose a deal to the WE's where we give them the heart of the Great Forest, whichever forests they already possess (I thought they had a smaller one already in the Empire), and where neither they or us can harm each other and stay on our own territory.

Can you come up with a contract tonight? We could then check it and post it tomorrow. I've also registered at Asrai.org, will be joining in the fun there shortly.

Just to point out that dogs and cats will soon be the closest of friends the High Elves have now offered the Woodies an alliance!
Well... Things are going to have to change, or we'll end up totally alone.  :-o Erm... Point out to the Asrai that dwarves are allied with ogres too, I can't see these brutes being too carefull around their precious trees.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Veldemere on May 05, 2007, 10:33:09 PM
I will try to put a contract up tomorrow
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Demonslayer on May 05, 2007, 11:00:06 PM
Since everybody else seems to make contracts and alliances that do not match the general fluff, I'll see what I can do in writing up some contracts with races the Empire would never ally with. Druchii is one thing- let's see if we can get the VC on our side!

After all, we do not want the crown. We're offering everybody to stay the hell away from the crown and help THEM while going about our own business. If the other races of light want to exclude us, then maybe it's time to find some allies among the dark ones.

Because all this is happening in OUR lands. Other races are coming to US. They want OUR land, and if we don't step aside they'll kill us, too. The dwarves, elves and brets want to invade us so that they gain more power/land/whatever. And they call themselves "light"? Why the hell are we still hanging out with them anyway?

It's time the elder races learn to have some respect for their hosts :icon_evil:.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: cisse on May 05, 2007, 11:21:19 PM
We're still sigmarites Demonslayer, and I just can't see us having any dealings at all with undead of all kinds, Orcs or Chaos (including beastmen and skaven). As I already said, Druchii may be possible to influence, allthough a real alliance is also out of question methinks. I just -can't- see the Empire dealing with these races. It's utterly improbable (not for a single general mind you, but for the empire as a whole) , and I'd like to adhere to the general fluff at least a bit.

Yes, GW has set us apart from the other races with the fluff they've come up with. Basically, it's very well possible that we end up with no allies. However, if we can secure enough non-agression pacts, perhaps we can do allright... Allthough "evil" races (and Bret's, stupid gits) will still fight against us.

PS: any of the other negotiators on msn? Might make things a bit easier for the decisions that need a lot of discussing - I'll post any chat logs here to make sure all members are kept up-to-date. My msn is francisheeb(at)msn(dot)com
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: cisse on May 05, 2007, 11:36:02 PM
A few more things: is anyone trying to get to the Lizardmen?

Also, what about the Ogres? Sure, they have been hired by the dwarves, but perhaps some of them will still side with us. It is a possibility, and I think someone should look into it.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Veldemere on May 06, 2007, 08:29:32 PM
@Deamonslayer- I have no problem with anyone forging an alliance with anyone other than chaos< but with VC you may not find much support here, please say if anyone has tried lizzies, otherwise Cisse do you have time?
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: cisse on May 06, 2007, 08:53:59 PM
Seems like lizzies are indeed not yet approached by us... I'll see if I can post something there in an hour or so.

Oh, and Veldemere, have you been able to put together a contract for the woodies? If not, I'll give it a try tomorrow, but I'm really exhausted right now, and putting up a contract is beyond me now...
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Veldemere on May 06, 2007, 09:01:29 PM
I have made a formal offer to the Asrai, not as strong as i would have liked but we have to tread softly to even hope for a result. Please post a link to lizzies otion, similarly to you Demonslayer to VC.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: farmer on May 06, 2007, 09:14:05 PM
Are we so desperate that people are even thinking about talking to the undead. The only contact they will be getting from me is from my sword  :ph34r: I for one will not be any alliance with them. Anybody court doing so should be hung for the nearest tree for treason. You never know if you are found worthy you might be brought back from he dead.  :ph34r:
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Veldemere on May 06, 2007, 09:28:22 PM
I agree but when I suggested Woodies I got shot down in flames, since then I will not shoot anyone down if they can have justification. As I said I will not support but he may be able to provide a reasonable rationale.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: farmer on May 06, 2007, 09:35:43 PM
My brother plays as Woodies and is a member of Asrai. He has told me that if ANYBODY gets in his way then they will die. Typical woodelf, there not to be trusted.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: cisse on May 06, 2007, 09:53:07 PM
I'm not comfortable with talking to the VC's either...
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Veldemere on May 06, 2007, 09:58:21 PM
Well looks like it will make no difference, despite any work I have put in I think we will lose the woodies, looks like we stand alone, apologies for my failure.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: cisse on May 06, 2007, 10:03:22 PM
Don't be sorry, you did a great job. We were always going to have to fight an uphill battle to secure an alliance with them, seems like they favoured dwarves from the start. What still pisses me off though is the fact that the dwarves bought them by promising them our land. Is a non-agression pact with woodies still possible? I hope we can aquire one with the dwarves too, and if we have some of the HE's on our side...

Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: farmer on May 06, 2007, 10:07:28 PM
Thank-you for all your efforts Veldemere, they have been noted. :eusa_clap:
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: farmer on May 06, 2007, 10:14:45 PM
Maybe we could tempt the woodies by giving them the Drakwald forest. Kill two birds with one stone. We get there help and they get to kill beastmen :icon_biggrin:
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Veldemere on May 06, 2007, 10:24:47 PM
Sadly having observed the woodie forum for a while I notice there  are only a few people who post on it all of whom seem to hate the Empire, there seems to be very little room for free thought.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Reynard_of_Bogenhafen on May 06, 2007, 11:03:13 PM
the best thing to do with them was to just gauge reactions from my thread on asrai, then jump in...

the worst thing was to make demands... they were never gonna go for that...
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: farmer on May 07, 2007, 08:07:36 AM
Oh well looks like we will be hunting down woodies as well this summer  :ph34r:
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: farmer on May 07, 2007, 08:44:37 AM
I will make contact with the Woodelves today. Although I not hope full of a good responce I feel like I have to try. Does anybody have a message they would like me to pass on to them. Anything that is not gonna get me killed that is  :icon_lol:
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Warlord on May 07, 2007, 09:03:26 AM
In our relations with the HE, why have we not just offered them the crown? They want the crown, and good relations with the dwarfs so they can get back the phoenix crown. If they help the Dwarves, the Dwarves will not give the Phoenix crown back UNLESS they actually have the Nemesis Crown. The only way they can bargain with the Dwarves, is NOT to help them.

If we find it, we give it to them because they are so powerful and all knowing. All we ask is they ally with us, and non-aggression the dwarfs. No case of we will keep it, or we will try and safe-keep it. We will out-right give it to them. Desperate times...

Furthermore, what about the Chaos Dwarves?
Someone had the genius idea of giving away the mountains, why not offer it to the Chaos Dwarves? There are all kinds of races coming to the empire, all kinds of races that can be made slaves, especially their hated 'good' cousins. Whats more, while the Dwarves will be focused on the Empire, the Chaos Dwarves can attack the rear of the Dwarves, to take their ancestral holds. Plus, if we bring them in on it enough in the fluff, they may even get a new book  :happy:

The DE idea is a good one, but most likely won't work. The best I think we can offer them is asking them to attack the O&G in the Empire, and take them as slaves. I'm sure Orcs would be good slaves, stronger than humans and more resistant to the whip (the DE like that stuff). We can make mentions of them cutting off our retreating enemies and slaving them - and we let it happen because they aren't attacking us... Major wins for the DE getting HEAPS of slaves, and lower losses because we are non-aggression for them.

I still think the VC idea needs a bit more exploring... This special character I think is probably a major player without us knowing, however if we can suggest to the Vampire Counts that the Dwarves are the ones who are threatening their lands to look for some 'crown' we can get them attack them. They are close to the mountains after all.

Seriously though, the Dwarves are being immature in their alliances, we might as well play a little dirty. I am so sick of reading in official fluff "the Empire is still recovering from 'x' war". When are we gonna prosper damn it!

The main problem I see in this was the thought that actually went into the campaign. They chose the 3 most recent races to get out some new miniatures, rather than actually think about what races can ally, and what races won't, and what ones are neutral. They probably would have made more money releasing miniatures not from the recent ranges as well, as that way people might buy the army for the new miniatures, rather than the recent release. Ah well....
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: farmer on May 07, 2007, 09:23:33 AM
DE, VC ,CD  these are the armies we should be fighting. We need to stay true to our faith in the Emperor and Sigmar. At this rate next it will be chaos we will be asking for help. Warlord you do realize what happen to the last people that were in alliance with evil. They were judged unworthy and destroyed (Mordheim).

I for one would rather die true Imperial soldier and sit with Sigmar then to sell my sole to Chaos and the undead
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Reynard_of_Bogenhafen on May 07, 2007, 09:24:03 AM
ruddy manfred,

jeez why hadn't i thought of that...

All we have to do is send Volkmar round to Drakenhof, knock on the door remind him that it was a grand theogonist that killed his papa and bobs your uncle he's on our side...

well, it worked in SOC  :blush:

Chaos dwarfs are already sided with the Orcs,

Dark elves, rather pull my spleen out of my left nostril

High elves should really be working with us. Even though the only elves that give a rats about us are Teclis and Gilead...

Is there a kislevite stand alone forum? or do we fully encompass that area?
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: farmer on May 07, 2007, 09:25:20 AM
 :ph34r:
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Reynard_of_Bogenhafen on May 07, 2007, 09:38:10 AM
As far as the well being of the empire goes unfortunately the undead and the empire have very similar goals at heart.

Both very strongly oppose chaos, the undead under Vlad and manfredd are less blood thirty than the likes of Konrad Kurze.

Manfredd like his sire believe the people are cattle to be harvested but sparingly, chaos hates mankind and would wipe it from the earth... for the existance of the vampires this simply can't be allowed. So as silly as it sounds allying with them is a strong background based motion. If we really wanted to we could hunt the Von Carstein's down and wipe them from the face of the planet, it was basically achieved during the reign of Vlad Von Carstein, Konrad Kurze added further to the slaughter by removing the only truly powerful Vampires remaining fearing (with the exception of Manfredd who was in Khemri at the time) leaving very few true get still functioning. Even after the three hundred years that has passed since hel fenn the numbers of the actual vampires are really quite low and they know it.

Manfredd is quite fearful of Volkmar because he knows if any man can bring down the Von carstein 'legacy' it would be him with his religious zeal...

Manfredd would side with us as far as background is concerned, but it would cost us the recognition of sylvannia as a state, which in truth we basically do anyway. Or the promise not to wipe him of the soul of our grosby slippers till a later date!
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: farmer on May 07, 2007, 09:54:02 AM
Surgesting dealing with the Undead. Shame on you Reynard and you have nerve to call yourself a man of the Empire.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Reynard_of_Bogenhafen on May 07, 2007, 10:05:10 AM
I'm not suggesting, i'm only saying that background would support it.

Personally i'd like to stomp all the filthy leeches into the dust (I'm a big witch hunter/Huss/Volkmar nut)

I just read enough to know that the only thing that matters is that manfredd is actually worried we will actually take him down and that makes him pliable. besides one of our great heroes was a vampire, Genevieve and she saved Karl Franz from being necked by the great traitor Oswald... so not all of them are bad. they were human before there were vampires, and for some the body changes but thier loyaties don't.

For example Jerek, once grandmaster of the white wolves was sired by Vlad VC, even in death a truer soldier of the empire would be hard to find!

He recognised that only in death he could be absolved,

and I agree...
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: wissenlander on May 07, 2007, 12:26:00 PM
Good work to everyone that's been working at this stuff.  I too am a little miffed that the Dwarfs turn their backs on us so quickly, even if GW said they should.  I'm done dealing with them, they're not listening to reason, and they tell us of our wrongs when they too soon forget the 2,000+ years we've been friends.

Anyways, we either have to decide if we are going to try and get any allies, or not.  Farmer, I agree with you that it doesn't go fluff wise that we should ally with the 'dark ones'.  But, if any of the 'good' races were to do so, then it would be us.  Everyone seems to think that we're fickle and weak.  If they force our hands, then we must react.

We have none of our old friends to back us up, fluff wise or treaty wise through the forums, so we may have to look at other avenues to ensure that we don't get overrun.

This was supposed to be a little frolick in the woods during the summer, but quickly looks like we will have to send most of our armies to beat back EVERY other race in the world.

*Edit:  I just thought of something else to point out.  Yes, the Brets are against us fluff wise, but so is everyone else.  They have not said they will support us, but the general consensus thus far say that they will not attack and some even suggest that it is the Dwarfs who are wrong in this case.  If we are seeking to try to speak reason to the Dwarfs, even though they too are beset against us, then what is the difference in trying to talk to the Brets?  At least they realize that this campaign was set up poorly, and it makes absolute no sense for allies of a year ago to attack one another over something so stupid.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: cisse on May 07, 2007, 01:12:28 PM
@ Wissenlander, concerning the Brets: If the dwarfs win, they get the NC - big deal, I don't care too much for who gets it if it's not an evil race. If the Bret's win, they get to grab land from us. Doesn't really matter the blokes at the Round Table don't agree with that, it's GW deciding what happens. Now, that said, I do agree that we should try to get them on our side. Heck, if we can get the nations of Men united on this, we might stand a good chance of improving relations between our countries.

Dwarfs are currently making a decision as to what stance they will take towards us. I do not want us to be their lackeys, so I wouldn't like it if we signed a pact that demands oo much of us. I'm still angry at them for offering our lands to the woodies... I'm all in favour of a noagression pact, though.

Asrai seem to be a lost cause indeed.

Asur... We may be able to get some of them on our side. It seems like they will have different factions i this campaign, each doing its own stuff. One would be supporting the Empire.

I'm starting work on the Lizardmen now.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: wissenlander on May 07, 2007, 01:23:09 PM
I agree about the Brets.  I just think that we shouldn't dismiss the help we may get from them.  They're the one forum right now that looks semi favourably upon us.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: wissenlander on May 07, 2007, 03:11:42 PM
A somewhat 'official' treaty has been presented to the Brets by Cisse and myself. 

1)We should fight together, not against one another. At the very least a non-agression pact.

2)If any of your young nobles is in a search for land, they may have a tract granted them by the Emperor. In such case they should respect the authority of the local Elector and the Emperor.

3)If either party finds the crown we shall call a council of the wise. This would include races that we have in the past thought of as friends. Those of the Elves of Ulthuan and the Loren, Dwarfs, and representatives of the fair land of Brettonia and the Empire, respectively.


That's what it entails.  Tostig, I could sure use your help on this.  Or anyone else who can write in a good lawyer style, that's one area in which I lack.

It's just a start, the Dwarfs have presented an offiicial treaty, and I'm not going to let the little fellows beat us to another ally.  The Brets do look favorably upon us, enough to where they may be the one forum that does side with us, outside of a non-agression pact.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: The Chosen Pistolier on May 07, 2007, 03:41:07 PM
The asrai (at least some of them) seem a little more liking toward us now. An official offer was posted by Veldemere  (http://www.woodelves.org/viewtopic.php?t=7254) and the general responses are roughly:

Quote
We will recognize the Sovereignty of the Elves of Athel Loren in perpetuity
They do not really care about it.

We will alo observe a cessation of Imperic human rights of any citizen foolish enough to stray within the realm of Athel Loren
Don't care. Better then nothing though I suppose.

Full Asrai sovereignty of the area known by man as the Green Heart of the Great Forest upon discovery of the Nemesis Crown.
This must be made clearer, i.e. which areas are covered by this and so on.

Understanding and full individual negotiation rights of any Asrai enclaves within Empire territories.

Assistance with the discovery and destruction of Beastmen within the forests of the Empire.
Great!

Full assistance in the prevention of the Nemesis crown falling into the hands of any enemy of the Asrai.
Great! They wish that we are clearer about what's going to happen to the crown though. I don't think they will let us have it.

Full disclosure of any Chaos movements around any area known to be of interest of the Asrai.
Great!

The implementation and application of the Hunters of Sigmar, a Knightly order dedicated to patrolling the perimeters of any woodland with the specific remit of prevention of Chaos insurgence.
Great!

Our Requests as party to treaty;

Asrai assistance with prevention of the spread of the scourge of Bretonnia into lands controlled by the Empire.
They do not seem positive about this.

Protection of Imperial Man within the great forest until such time as the Nemesis Crown is found and or destroyed.
Clearer, most did not want to send forces to protect men, but they wouldn't attack them I guess they could assist if people were attacked by beasts and they were close by.

Recognition of the Men of Sigmar as a distinct and developing race and accorded all rights as such.
They don't really care.


Overall it needs to be made clearer and more rightforward (they don't seem to like diplomat speak so much) and the problem with the crown itself needs to be addressed.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: wissenlander on May 07, 2007, 04:01:15 PM
They got a little uppity on the whole soveirgnty issue.  It's theirs, big whoop.  They can have it.  The only thing that we can probably agree upon is non-agression based upon both sides fighting evil.  That and the Hunters of Sigmar helping in the riddance of beastmen.

We're not going to get much better than that, especially since we can't officially say we'll hand over the crown.  I proposed that we should have a non-agression agreement and cooperation in destroying beastmen.  Let's see what they think.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: The Chosen Pistolier on May 07, 2007, 04:09:32 PM
Sounds good :happy:
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Warlord on May 07, 2007, 04:18:25 PM
I think you all mis-understand me, and are forgetting what the fluff we submit actually means. As far as 'allying' with evil races, I am not suggesting that they help us find the crown, or we share the crown with them. I am suggesting we target races who specifically don't really want the crown or cannot be major players for the crown, and moreso have other fluff objectives they may want to achieve.
Overall, we are / will be contributing to the fluff of the entire Warhammer world, and as such offering a race that has little / no interest in acquiring the crown a special place in our fluff makes it more interesting. We are technically not allying with them as far as fighting goes, more making sure that the fluff objectives we set out to achieve get widespread coverage.

We can say we will mention the success of DE slavers, and they will mention our forest clearing / tower building efforts (just an example). Nowhere in this will we be sharing the crown, or the search. I am simply saying this, because this is not so much an alliance in that 'in game' we will work together, but more when discussing 'in game' activities, our minor fluff objectives are fulfilled.

I just want you all to remember there are multiple outcomes we want from this campaign, not just the crown, and I would feel a better sense of accomplishment if some of our efforts actually meant something, rather than just volume of battles of us and allies finding the crown.

You can't think about it as a good vs evil thing. Its a lets get our fluff out there and accepted thing.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: wissenlander on May 07, 2007, 04:54:32 PM
I would definitely agree with that.  And it does make sense.  The more areas that fluff is touched on the better.  We just need more hands in the pot here at the moment.  We've got a few people contacting multiple forums.  It's hard to keep up with everything at once.

I'm fine with a 'fluff alliance' with one of the baddies, but what do others think?
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: cisse on May 07, 2007, 05:40:54 PM
Warlord, you're right.

While I'd never say we should really ally ourselves with any of the evil races, negotiations can be attempted and some agreements can be made about fluff and stuff like that. We could offer VC's, Druchii etc an appearance in some stories we write, giving them a more substantial background for what they're actually doing here. Asking those races to help us in the campaign by posting battles on the other hand...That's something else entirely.

I'm all in favour of trying to make up such agreements for fluff with the bad guys. Is there anyone who still got time to work on that? I'm having a hard enough time as it is already with the races we're already in discussion with...
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Ostermarker on May 07, 2007, 05:53:21 PM
It may be easier to ally with the undead, maybe by promising some minor sovereignty to Sylvania, on the theory that we might be able to control them if they were electors (well we do have a spare runefang) with the Tomb Kings, we could promise that any Khemrian artifacts we recover in this campaign would be returned.

Or something.

I doubt Chaos would be welcomed, though maybe Chaos Dwarfs, they are physically similar to the other Dwarfs, and we have had little good from the Dwarfs. Or simply we could do as we are with the Dark Elves, promising them slaves.

Bretonnians could be a good alliance, the fluff says we're against them (though most fluff says we should be with the Dwarfs, *shrug*) aslong as we mention "The long friendship between our two countries, and in this time of war, Mankind must stick together"

High Elves and Wood Elves could be promised protection in the land of the Empire, the Wood Elves that live in the Empire could be given Elector status, allowing them some say in the workings of the Empire (if they can be bothered of course)

Ogres could be seen as possible allies (or mercenaries) for money, food, beer, or whatever. Though of course they offered to the Dwarfs first, and may prioritize, though that does mean we could still hire them occasionally.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Demonslayer on May 07, 2007, 05:55:08 PM
Ah, another non-agression pact. Just great. Don't get me wrong, I have great respect for all the work and patience everybody here is spending on relationships with the other races. But I am TERRIBLY disappointed in those other races.

For them, a non-agression pact means this; We help them accomplish their goals, we fight enemies they're too lazy to fight themselves, and if we bother them they'll kill us. To them the non-agression pact is simply an exuse to invade our lands and do as they please, without us getting in the way.

The dwarfs, elves and bretonnia have allied with one another, leaving us out of the deal. They march into our land practically shouting "get out of our way or die!". All this over some crown that we would have given to them if only they'd asked for it. It has come to the point where we actually have to beg the other races not to hurt us and promise them to help them and support them in any way possible, without asking anything in return.

Let's face it; the former "Council of Light" is attacking us. It is now that we must make our stand against this arrogance! I hear others shouting that we must not forsake our Sigmarite heritage, but by letting these non-allied armies into our lands, that's EXACTLY what we're doing. After all, the Empire was founded by Sigmar. Sigmar united us all into one empire, for his dream was a unified race of men, defending their land and their unity against ALL invaders, not just those from the north!

To think that the dwarfs, elves and bretonnians are still following the light is to deny the truth, to say that the dark races should be deemed evil is to be naïve. Yes, the races of Chaos, the undead and all those would attack us too, but to them, we are but random targets. The council of light has targeted us directly. The only reason they're not fighting us yet is because we sit back in fear while they take what they want from us! Men of Sigmar do not give in to fear!

Now, what the dark races could offer to us, and what we could offer to them;

VC: Again, a Vampire trapped in the Empire will help us if we do not threathen us, help him in fact. We promise him that we do not attack him, that we recognizetheir rule over Sylvania, and in return they only have to strengthen their armies by fighting for us instead of against us.
DE: Again, they raid chaos coasts instead of ours. Chaos will be a very big threat to them should they conquer the nemesis crown, so it is in their best interest to fight chaos, and not the one trying to stop Chaos. To round the deal off, we offer them a large percentage of prisoners. If the council of light openly attacks us, then that percentage will include the high and wood elves they hate so much (after all, once those guys start attacking us there's really no point in showing them any mercy).
Skaven: We will make it clear that we will not give them the crown, nor help them in any way, but if they agree to help us then we will not stop them either. As leverage we will let them mine their precious warpstone from one of the mines we guard so closely, during the duration of the alliance. If the deal with the dark elves goes off, we might use this to trade warpstone for slaves, just so the dark elves will have even more reason to join us.


Edit: @cisse; I'll get on the contracts, then. After all it was my idea  :icon_wink:. Though it might be best if I do NOT negotiate with the dark races. I pissed off a whole lot of skaven and dark elves in the past (I do have a friendly contact on a VC site, though).
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Ostermarker on May 07, 2007, 06:01:59 PM
Let's face it; the former "Council of Light" is attacking us. It is now that we must make our stand against this arrogance! I hear others shouting that we must not forsake our Sigmarite heritage, but by letting these non-allied armies into our lands, that's EXACTLY what we're doing. After all, the Empire was founded by Sigmar. Sigmar united us all into one empire, for his dream was a unified race of men, defending their land and their unity against ALL invaders, not just those from the north!

VC: Again, a Vampire trapped in the Empire will help us if we do not threathen us, help him in fact. We promise him that we do not attack him, that we recognizetheir rule over Sylvania, and in return they only have to strengthen their armies by fighting for us instead of against us.
DE: Again, they raid chaos coasts instead of ours. Chaos will be a very big threat to them should they conquer the nemesis crown, so it is in their best interest to fight chaos, and not the one trying to stop Chaos. To round the deal off, we offer them a large percentage of prisoners. If the council of light openly attacks us, then that percentage will include the high and wood elves they hate so much (after all, once those guys start attacking us there's really no point in showing them any mercy).
Skaven: We will make it clear that we will not give them the crown, nor help them in any way, but if they agree to help us then we will not stop them either. As leverage we will let them mine their precious warpstone from one of the mines we guard so closely, during the duration of the alliance. If the deal with the dark elves goes off, we might use this to trade warpstone for slaves, just so the dark elves will have even more reason to join us.

Why not use the first paragraph in our fluff? The rest of the council of light has turned agaoinst us, so we must turn from those who turn from us, fluff-wise, a reason to side with others. The Vampires could be a good move, by promising not to attack them, and to recognize Sylvania as its own state may work. Dark Elves, its all been said before, by trading them prisoners as slaves, we gain allies. The Skaven will be twisted against us, they may use us to reach their "Great Ascendency" so I'm not sure how/if we should deal with them.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Demonslayer on May 07, 2007, 06:08:32 PM
Quote
Why not use the first paragraph in our fluff?


 :icon_redface: I'd be honoured.

Quote
The Skaven will be twisted against us, they may use us to reach their "Great Ascendency" so I'm not sure how/if we should deal with them.

No they won't  :icon_biggrin:. That's the beauty of it. We're not being used by them, we simply offer them something in return for their help.

On a side note, would it be a good idea to offer the skaven the Helm of the Skavenslayer, as a sign that we're not out to harm them? Giving someone a weapon that can hurt only them should be proof of our "good" intent. On the other hand, it might reming them what we did to them 1500 years ago.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Ostermarker on May 07, 2007, 06:13:46 PM
The Skaven aren't stupid, they will most likely see this as a form of agreement/surrender. It could be a good goodwill gift though.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: wissenlander on May 07, 2007, 06:19:29 PM
I believe that relations with the Woodies has ended.  They feel, at least at the moment, that if all we can agree upon is not to fight one another and to kill beastmen, there's nothing to stand upon.

I'm done with dealing with them.  They won't listen and the've made their minds.  I'm going to focus on other areas, and stop wasting my time.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: cisse on May 07, 2007, 06:22:21 PM
Guys, never forget that we are a Sigmarite nation. An alliance with any kind of undead, beasts, or chaos is out of the question I think. Betrayed or not, let it to the Dwarfs to make stupid against-all-fluff (meow! splat! there goes the kitten) agreements, I don't think the Empire as a whole would ever consider talking with undead and such. A general as individual, yes, but the Empire as a whole...

Now, some former enemies could be bargained with, I fully agree. DE's could be given slaves, as well as Chaos Dwarfs. While not our closest friends, we could turn both of these races away from us and point them to our... erm, enemies I suppose... (it's all getting confusing by now). But making real alliances with them is a bit over the top I think. Furthermore, there's VC's, skaven and all those races - here I can't even see us giving them gold or slaves to turn them away. But the DE's and CD's are worth a shot perhaps to be approached in this way. These are agreements made in-character, these sort of agreements can be explained in the fluff.

That said, that is only the in-character side of the story. In real life, we can easily approach them on their respective sites, ask them what they think, who they're planning to attack, and see if we can convince them to attack anyone else but us (by reasoning things like "we'd not destroy the crown so you still have a chance of stealing it later on" and such). We can make agreements to mention each other in the fluff (like Warlord said) and highlight each other's achievement, without actually working together. These kind of agreements are real-life or out-of-character, we can't really explain how they come to happen in fluff.

I'm not sure if I make any sense here, and if the difference I'm trying to describe between the two kinds of arrangements, ar clear. That said, if most people are in favour of trying to make in-character agreements with evil races, you should get going.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Demonslayer on May 07, 2007, 06:53:27 PM
Quote
I'm not sure if I make any sense here

With the topic of "get our enemies to attack our enemies' enemies instead of us", how much sense can one man make  :icon_wink:?

I fully agree that we won't be friends with any of those races, and the alliance will fall as soon as the little trinket has left play. We're just trying not to get steamrollered overhere.

I've got a day off tomorrow, and I'll try whipping up some contracts then.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: wissenlander on May 07, 2007, 06:55:27 PM
Thank you very much Demonslayer.  It's much appreciated.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Demonslayer on May 07, 2007, 07:06:30 PM
No problem. Just remember; due to bad relationships with members of those races, it's better I don't show my face around there :icon_wink:...
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: wissenlander on May 07, 2007, 07:07:43 PM
That's fine.  Right now any sort of help is appreciated.  You can be the behind the scenes guy no problem.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Demonslayer on May 07, 2007, 07:52:05 PM
Something I just found on a big VC-site; Mannfred is dead!~Well, he has been for, like, centuries, you know, but this time he's really dead-dead!
Apparently the vampire character is a Nechrach Vampire who has taken Mannfred's position as leader of all the von Carsteins.

Well isn't this nice? This can be used. Even though he has fought his way to supremacy, he probably understands that the von Carstein's are not too fond of him. If he comes to a deal with us, where we over him SYLVANIA, then he'll take it to solidify his rule. Besides, he will need help to keep the other vampires in check. So there's our explanation if we still fight the VC! We're actually helping the new ruler flush out the traitors. Yes, they'd lose points game-wise, but killing his commanders will still hurt his military powers. Too bad for him...
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: wissenlander on May 07, 2007, 08:14:52 PM
Ah yes, good going Demonslayer.

As of now here's what we've got going on.  Today's status report.  Thanks to Cisse for a lot of help today.  We've made some decent strides today, at least we've gotten a little farther.

Dwarfs:   Still reeling from the fact they've turned on us.  They're still considering non-agression at best.  One of the main issues here is the fact that since we're both one of the three main armies, it wouldn't make since to side with one another.  That and they think we're a weak race...

High Elves:  Cisse tells me that they're split really nice like.  1/3 will support us, nearly 1/2 will support the Dwarfs, leaving the rest as neutral I guess. 

Wood Elves:   I had to hold my tongue over there.  Those guys can be down right rude (in character of course).  They won't help us.  Best we can hope for is non-agression, but they've sided with the Dwarfs for the most part, so not sure how that'll work.

Bretonnians:  Do not support an invasion.  They're forming a council to figure out what's going on.  The Dwarfs have presented them a treaty.  Right now they don't want to invade, but they don't really want to attack the Dwarfs either.  They are fearful of a Tomb King invasion and are thinking at the moment about being neutral to all 'good guys' and fight only evil.  Our best bet thus far from the old Conclave still though...

Ogres:  Firmly in the Dwarf camp.  I haven't tried to talk to them, but they seem happy with being Dwarf lackies this round.

Lizards:   Cisse has just approached them, so time will tell.

Some other stuff is in the works, but tomorrow will tell I guess.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: cisse on May 07, 2007, 08:24:31 PM
High Elves:  Cisse tells me that they're split really nice like.  1/3 will support us, nearly 1/2 will support the Dwarfs, leaving the rest as neutral I guess. 
Stormbrow is the expert here, he can tell you probably more about what's going on.

@ Demonslayer: regardless what has happened, do we really want to make an alliance with undea? Turning them away from us, fine. But I can't see any Imperial messenger going over there and dsicuss strategy with our allies... Having them attack someone else could work, but what can we offer them? Nothing I think, it just wouldn't syut the Empire to give them Sylvania or something.

Even if the majority is up for it, wait a day or maybe two. We're still working on Bret's, HE's and Lizzies, and we wouldn't want to scare them awayo or give them reason to distrust us.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Veldemere on May 07, 2007, 08:59:18 PM
ok I have made a final punt at the Woodies but i got slightly irate by their way ooc responses (not so much to us but to the Dwarfs), I think the forum must be populated by 12 year olds (no offense to any here). There is still a chance of a non agression pact, but very slim.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Stormbrow II on May 07, 2007, 11:07:54 PM
Quote
Stormbrow is the expert here, he can tell you probably more about what's going on.
I'll let you look at this one yourself:

Quote from: me on asur.org
If there is any proof that the elves have not changed with time this is it. You are a shame to yourself and your kin Stormbrow. This I take great personal offense to, as now not only do you show disdain upon the cooperation of our two nations, you now make an active threat of war. This is a slight upon the nation of the dawi, and while I come here in peace for my nation I grow weary to your discord and bullyboy tactics.

I give you a choice elf. Withdraw your statement, or I draw a bloodoath to see you pay for your arrogance and aggression. This is my oath, and my oath alone, as I know there have been a few objective or honourable voices amongst the court, and I would not jepordise an alliance with the elves that seem to hold rational thought.

Choose your response carefully elf, for while I will not draw my axe as an ambassador to your lands I will seek you out and slay you if I ever hear your name amongst an army that faces us.
I have their ambassador threatening me which isn't impressing the rest of our men at the moment so of those that have voted against ye, as already stated earlier, they're switching allegiances.  I'm single-handledly getting in the way of an alliance. :biggriin:

Quote
Even if the majority is up for it, wait a day or maybe two. We're still working on Bret's, HE's and Lizzies, and we wouldn't want to scare them awayo or give them reason to distrust us.
Methinks a NAP might work well with some of the races listed - the tree-huggers are hell-bent on allying with the stunties and their minds won't be changed.  Sadly. And yes, some of their responses are fairly...frustrating to have to read.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: cisse on May 07, 2007, 11:35:14 PM
Yes, I noticed your efforts on Asur.org.I've also posted some delicate hints (well... sort of delicate), and I've talked to some peeps there. Dwarfs aren't all that popular over there anymore as they were when they first asked for an alliance. There's still work to do though, it's a close run. Anyway, we're happy with whatever help we get from there.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Powder Monkey on May 08, 2007, 09:27:38 AM
Dear fellow generals and tireless ambassadors!

Let me say first that the amount of work put into forming alliances and contacting other races is amazing. It makes for an thrilling read and transports a strange feeling of reality into the world of what is basically a boardgame. I applaud our ambassadors.

Now my gripe  :icon_biggrin: :
I strongly, strongly advise against giving away entire regions of the empire for the sake of small advantages in an upcoming, less than world shaking summer campaign. While it could be argumented that GW would never integrate, for example, the VC being given  entire Sylvania into official fluff, it would still leave the VC community with the feeling that it now rightfully belongs to them. Same goes for throwing magical items out of the window - giving the skaven an item that is a huge advantage in games against them seems to be folly, more so to reach something as fickle as a non aggression pact with a nation of rats, for sigmars sake!
My next point: Forming alliances to mention in submitted fluff is a great idea and something I am enthusiastic about. But it should stop short of making actual gifts of land and wealth / artifacts, because the W-E community is not speaking for all empire players. I am of the opinion that this forum represents the best place to come to as a general of the Empire, but we do not by far speak with / for everybody. So even if GW integrated our ideas, how would the majority of players react to suddenly not being allowed to field the helm of the skavenslayer? Or Khemri related items?
In game reasons also speak against giving parts of the empire away freely: I doubt that any nation would actually yield parts of itself to achieve a short term advantage / alliance. At least this idea would be outrageous to any nation on earth, as far as I know. Imagine the situation after the Nemesis boots, Nemesis scarf and the Nemesis toilet seat have been discovered in campaigns to come? Would you accept giving away half of the Empire to improve the outcome of these campaigns? Because that's what would happen if we started to chip away at our very land that uncounted men have died to protect. Not to mention that any gift we make strenghtens our enemies, who only have to cancel their treaty with us to have freely won anything we gave them.

And another thing: I am appalled at the speed the empire players posting here seem to switch their moral foundations. True, the classical allies of men have little interest in joining us - mainly because GW steered them fluff-wise, in some part because people on other races forums are just that - people. No dwarf is registered at bugmans, but humans that maybe see us more as a contester for their place in the top ten of good races, or maybe envy us for our greatcannons, or I don't know what drives them to ignore the oaths that bind their fluff to ours, their nation to ours.

But I tell you one thing: One outcome I want to achieve in this campaign more than any other is this - that we can say afterwards that we did not forget the spirit of our nation, that we did not turn on our old friends while they tried to stand alongside us, and that we did not for some magic artifact and a small diplomatic advantage suddenly turned to our most bitter enemies that have hated and murdered us for so long! I would be perfectly happy to say to the dwarfs in the winter:  "Congratulations on your stupid crown, you earned it by betraying friends, while we stood alone with our honor intact." *sticks out tongue at dwarf* Moral high ground, my friends!


To end this plea / rant: I suggest trying to convince other 'good' races that we need to fight alongside, to the effect of submitting each others fluff and not reporting battles against each other. Anything more than our stated campaign goals (cleaning the forest, establishing strongholds etc.) is unlikely to be accepted by GW, and probably not fair for the majority of empire players that have no say here.


Your diplomatic PM
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Veldemere on May 08, 2007, 10:10:01 AM
PM, thanks once again for grounding us and allowing us to focus on what matters in this campaign, as well as out import within it. As you say it is just a game or series of games but I have enjoyed this element of it. As it stands nothing is given away because no-one likes us. I say we all just go out there and win every battle by masacre and then as a reward tell GW which army to nerf for annoying us!
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Demonslayer on May 08, 2007, 12:06:00 PM
The contract for a treaty with the VC:


To (insert vampire’s name here),

   This letter was written and sent to you in the light of recent events, triggered by the finding of the Nemesis Crown in imperial lands. I need not inform you that around the world, all races have reacted by sending armed forces to claim this crown.
   It has come to the Empire’s attention that your lord, Count Mannfred von Carstein, has recently found final death. We do not know who was responsible for this act, but we would like to offer you our condolences. Though there has been a long standing enmity between our two nations, we had great respect for this exceptional and cunning leader.
   But with the start of a new era for the vampires of Sylvania, we can only imagine the ill effect this vacuum of power would present to you. Combined with the threat that comes with this new war, we are of the opinion that a treaty between our factions could be equally beneficial to the both of us.
   With the larger share of the council of light turning against us in this war, we feel it is time for new alliances. With this invasion, the empire cannot use a vampiric threat. Likewise, we would think that the vampires of Sylvania have no need for an imperial threat while their leadership is still unstable.
   What we propose is a treaty of mutual non-aggression, as well as a cooperation between our two factions. We have included our terms at the bottom of this message.
   Know that, though our people have been enemies for centuries now, we feel that both of us must set aside our differences if we intend to withstand the coming war.


   Sincerely,

   Emperor Karl Franz (or whoever’s writing)



Terms of our alliance

1. There will be no acts of aggression between the imperial forces at warhammer-empire.com and the vampire counts of  invisionfree.com/the_blood_keep. Of course, we respect the fact that you cannot speak for all vampires, as we cannot speak for all imperial generals. This treaty exists only between the members of the mentioned sites.

2. This treaty will last until the official end of the war for the nemesis crown. At that point, it shall be decided whether a continuation of our alliance will be desirable and beneficial for both factions involved.

3. Either faction involved may request military aid from the other faction.

3a. The addressed faction shall provide a military force to help the requesting faction in a defensive action only.
3b. Of course, the amount of military aid sent will be within the limits of reason. If the addressed faction needs all it’s troops in a defensive action, then the faction reserves the right to deny the requesting faction any military aid. This goes both ways.
3c. Both factions reserve the right to refuse to fight their own allies.

These terms are as of yet negotiable, and more can be added at the vampire count’s discretion.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Demonslayer on May 08, 2007, 12:30:27 PM
   To (whoever leads the druchii in this campaign),

   This letter was written and sent to you in the light of recent events, triggered by the finding of the Nemesis Crown in imperial lands. I need not inform you that around the world, all races have reacted by sending armed forces to claim this crown.
   We have heard that your forces do not actively seek the nemesis crown, but that you do wish to take advantage of the coming battle by raiding the undermanned coastline cities.   
   However, there is no need for hostilities between our two races. Many coastal cities are now undefended, so you can have your pick. Also we would like to point out to you that your neighbours, the hordes of chaos, are on the march to secure the crown for themselves, as opposed to the empire which wants no dealings with the crown. It is no secret that the hordes are at enmity with your race, and we imagine you would not like them to have control over such a powerful artefact.
   Since many of our former allies have turned on us, we would like to ask you to fight the hordes of chaos instead of the empire. You will be able to raid coastal cities all the same, and at the same time you will stop the hordes from gaining a military advantage over your empire. If you prefer a different target then you preserve the right to attack them instead. We simply ask you not to attack us.
   As a token of our good will, the empire will agree to deliver fifty percent of the prisoners we take in this war to you, to be used as you see fit.
   I hope that our empires can come to a mutually beneficial agreement.


   Sincerely,

   Emperor Karl Franz (or whoever’s writing)

Terms of our alliance

1. There will be no acts of aggression between the imperial forces at warhammer-empire.com and the druchii of druchii.net. Of course, we respect the fact that you cannot speak for all druchii, as we cannot speak for all imperial generals. This treaty exists only between the members of the mentioned sites.

2. This treaty will last until the official end of the war for the nemesis crown. At that point, it shall be decided whether a continuation of our alliance will be desirable and beneficial for both factions involved.

3. A total of fifty percent of prisoners taken by the empire during the war for the nemesis crown shall be given to the druchii, in weekly periods.
3a. The empire reserves the right to question individual prisoners thought to have valuable information for us. This might lead to the replacement of this individual for our quota, or a stalled delivery of this individual. A total of forty percent of prisoners shall be presented to you regardless of this.
3b. The total number of prisoners transferred will be a relative number, not an absolute one. The druchii will respect the fact that the number of prisoners given may vary with each weekly payment.
3c. The medical state and the race it belongs to are random factors. Only prisoners taken during this war will be given to you.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: wissenlander on May 08, 2007, 12:33:34 PM
PM:  I agree with you on your points.  There's one issue that throws everything that we intend to do into the abyss.  Games Workshop.  We can do what we want, but in the end will it matter?

We tried to set up an alliance with the Dwarfs, and came dang close, but were unable to because we are unable to say that we can hand the crown over.  The council option was the only one we could do to keep with the fluff, but it went against what the Dwarfs wanted.

At the same time the Bretonnian point of focus is a land grab.  While most of the Bretonnians at the Round Table do not want this, they are not the hand that rules.  We propose these things for the slight chance that we can get some fluff in and it works in with what GW does.

Thus far our hands have been tied greatly by this campaign.  We are seen as weak and fickle and due to that none of our old allies wants to stand with us.

I agree with you that in principle we should keep to our morals.  We should still be able to manipulate here and there for a favorable outcome, by which we should set up fluff alliances with some of the bad races.  If we are outnumbered on the fluff front, we'll get nowhere, and this is one area that we should not forget about.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Demonslayer on May 08, 2007, 12:48:00 PM
Everyone is getting screwed over by GW right now. I say we forget about that right now, have a fun campaign, and if GW wants to write something entirely different afterwards, then that's their problem.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Demonslayer on May 08, 2007, 01:16:09 PM
   To the High Priests of the temple of Hashut,

   This letter was written and sent to you in the light of recent events, triggered by the finding of the Nemesis Crown in imperial lands. I need not inform you that around the world, all races have reacted by sending armed forces to claim this crown.
   We of the empire have noticed a recent dwindling of the loyalty of other races which hold a seat in the council of light. Therefore, we are currently seeking out new allies to fight alongside with during this war.
   Though the relations between our lands have been tense at best, it is our belief that a treaty would be most beneficial to both of our races.
   We would like to propose an alliance of military aid to you. At your request, we shall send out forces to come to your defense. In return, we expect you to do the same.
   As a token of our good will, we will make a weekly donation of fifty percent of prisoners captured during the coming war, to be used as you see fit.


   Sincerely,

   Emperor Karl Franz (or whoever’s writing)


Terms of our alliance

1. There will be no acts of aggression between the imperial forces at warhammer-empire.com and the chaos dwarfs of s4.invisionfree.com/thegrandalliance. Of course, we respect the fact that you cannot speak for all chaos dwarfs, as we cannot speak for all imperial generals. This treaty exists only between the members of the mentioned sites.

2. This treaty will last until the official end of the war for the nemesis crown. At that point, it shall be decided whether a continuation of our alliance will be desirable and beneficial for both factions involved.

3. A total of fifty percent of prisoners taken by the empire during the war for the nemesis crown shall be given to the chaos dwarfs, in weekly periods.
3a. The empire reserves the right to question individual prisoners thought to have valuable information for us. This might lead to the replacement of this individual for our quota, or a stalled delivery of this individual. A total of forty percent of prisoners shall be presented to you regardless of this.
3b. The total number of prisoners transferred will be a relative number, not an absolute one. The chaos dwarfs will respect the fact that the number of prisoners given may vary with each weekly payment.
3c. The medical state and the race it belongs to are random factors. Only prisoners taken during the wars will be given to you.

4. Either faction involved may request military aid from the other faction.
4a. The addressed faction shall provide a military force to help the requesting faction in a defensive action only.
4b. Of course, the amount of military aid sent will be within the limits of reason. If the addressed faction needs all it’s troops in a defensive action, then the faction reserves the right to deny the requesting faction any military aid. This goes both ways.
4c. Both factions reserve the right to refuse to fight their own allies.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Demonslayer on May 08, 2007, 01:16:53 PM
Only the skaven left. I'll try doing it later today. Or tomorrow, latest.

Hey, if we get the chaos dwarfs on our side, then does that mean we also get the orcs on our side? I believe those two are allies.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Veldemere on May 08, 2007, 01:37:09 PM
We are Man, we stand alone.

Maybe we have this about face. Instead of being the pacifiers we make it clear that we will stand for no-one entering our land!

We issue a warning to all races to keep out of the Empire, we will harm none of their race already incumbent but any army/ warband entering into Empire territory will be seen as an act of war unless they try to appease us!

Hell of a lot easier to do the fluff and we can fight (and beat) anyone.

Stand firm men, we go to WAR!
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: wissenlander on May 08, 2007, 01:53:53 PM
The Dwarfs now seem to think that we changed our minds.  We offered them the crown if we were to find it, then we changed our minds...

I don't know where that happened.  The entire time we've been trying to speak reason and it almost worked.  Now they insult us and forget our long friendship.  They think we owe them everything and they owe us nothing.  I tire of this.  My heart aches that the Dwarfs are too stuborn to listen to their best of friends.  But I grow tired of trying to defend our situation.

We had this thing thrust upon us and now we have our former friends telling us to step aside and we will not be harmed.  I cannot in good conscious let an armed threat pass through my lands.  It saddens me to say that the Dwarfs may be such.

I will not seek to harm any Dwarf, for I hope that after this campaign we may again be friends.  However, in my short life I know not if I will be able to forget the offenses that our nation has suffered.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: cisse on May 08, 2007, 03:49:34 PM
Demonslayer, alliances with these races are out of the question I think.

Speaking in-character, I can see perhaps deals being made with Druchii and Chaos Dwarfs to leave each other alone in exchange for prisoners and stuff like that, but nothing else. Just ask them whether they'd consider attacking another faction instead of us, point out the benefits of such choice, and promise them some captives. That's about it I think.

With other evil races, I can see no deals at all being made. That doesn't mean we can't make agreements with the people on these sites to send in mutually supporting fluff, and stuff like that. Heck, we can even try to convince them to see things our way and attack another faction - but not by making an in-character agreement with them.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: vadis on May 08, 2007, 04:46:09 PM
Hi all!

I must agree with Veldemere, we indeed are alone now. Our former allies are bullying (sp?) us to let them go through our lands (they'll go in anyway). Even so, the dwarven leaders are offering Imperial soil as a term of alliance (the Great Forest). The time of the diplomatics (great job for the diplomats of the forum, I'm sure it was exhausting to deal with all those races) is over, now its time for the cannons, the mortars and the troops.

If the dwarves seek to fight against us for their greed, we shall give them a real grudge to mourn about. Most say we are weak minded and easily corrupted. Lets prove them wrong.

Sorry if it was a bit too much as a statement, it just angered me that they offered Imperial soil as a alliance term.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: wissenlander on May 08, 2007, 04:48:19 PM
Understandably so, Vadis.  I think it is difficult for many of us to grasp how our old friendship is tossed aside (even if it is just meant for fun and games).  This goes to show how much the fluff does mean to people who play.  It doesn't make sense, and everyone realizes it.  So for our oldest friends to turn their backs is a pill that is very hard to swallow.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: farmer on May 08, 2007, 05:54:12 PM
Its clear to me that the time for taking is at an end, as the war grows ever closer.

I think that Veldemere is right we close the borders and any army that is not Empire or High Elves will feel the wrath of man. These other armies come to the Empire and make demands at us, how dare they!  :x The Dwarfs giving our land away, so they can form an alliance with the Woodelves, I don't think so. We should not be worried about breaking our "Great alliance" with them as they have made it very clear that it means nothing to them. They've made there bed and as far as I am concerned they can lie in it. I don't owe them anything.

Lets not forget we are men of the Empire. We shall stand together as brothers and we shall take what ever the Old world can throw at us head on. For Karl Franz, Sigmar and the Empire to war :ph34r:
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Tostig on May 08, 2007, 06:01:35 PM
Our Dwarfen allies march through our lands, dressed in mail and armed for war, without bothering to inform our Lords.
Our Elven allies treat us with contempt, exchanging our lands and snubbing our ambassadors, not to mention our race, at every opportunity. They treat us with disdain and ignore our right to the lands we plough.
Our Brettonian allies launch mock-crusades as a pretext for grabbing out lands, their arrogance exceeded only by their calculating avarice. They are hypocrites, more interested in protecting their own borders than helping us when we need them most.

If this is the Conclave of Light then let them be damned. Let us stand up for what is ours and what has been ours since Sigmar united the tribes. Let the Dwarfs meet our cannon, the Elves our handguns and the Bretonnians our halberds. Let them suffer for their conceitedness.

So what; - abandon the Dwarfs and the Elves to their foolishness. If they want to waste their might fighting our foes the Greenskins for us, then all by all means we should cheer them on. However if they want to take our lands, our dignity and our people’s livelihoods, they are no better than those Greenskins they fight. The time is over when we could follow their beck and call like children. We must seize the day for our Empire, not as infants but as men!

Our world is no longer one of immature black and white, but rather a swirl of grey. Do not waste our ambassadors on elves, but rather on their truer comrades across the sea. Divert them from our coasts, to those of others who might threaten our cause. The rat men are not more distasteful than our Western neighbours, and they have the same love of cheese! Do not waste men hunting through the woods for fool’s gold, instead have them march on Marienburg to retake what is rightfully ours!

The time of elves and of dwarfs is over. We must act as heralds for the time of man!

****************************************************

Seriously though. GW seems to have engeneered this campaign (except for the idiotic McGuffin) to detract from the poor high fantasy of the Drizzle. Reading the WHFRP, I remember exactly how dark the Empire is, and now that Chaos has been driven from the field of battle, it’s likely that the Conclave will fall apart. In my opinion we ought to embrace this, and allow the Warhammer world to mature, and become an all together darker and more sinister one than it has traditionally been portrayed as.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: wissenlander on May 08, 2007, 06:10:23 PM
Ah yes, daily status reports, how I love them so...

I post this now just to get it out, if anything changes I will let everyone know before I leave for home.  I'll post my thoughts on each issue afterwards.

Dwarfs:  Officially, they're against us and ready for a scrap.  Unofficially, in the fluff department I think they're willing to work with us.  What this means is we have to agree in part or whole not to search for the crown and if for some odd reason we stumble across it, we give it to the closest Dwarf.  For this to really work between the two of us, we'd have to say we don't want it at all, basically putting us under the command of Dwarfs.

Wood Elves:  We have no chance of anything with them, but at least we know it.  

Brettonians:  Still neutral, but if they pick a side it will be us.  I'm most active with these guys, I'm not pushing them at all because they relate more with us, but don't want to get into a war with former allies.  As far as the land grab thing goes, they mentioned getting land from around Marienburg.

High Elves:  A lot of debate, but it's still leaning towards Dwarfs.  I believe we will get some help from them but not as much as we had hoped.  

Lizards:  Cisse's offer was basically shot down, but through no fault of his own.  We have nothing to give them really.

Ogres:  Still with the Dwarfs.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: wissenlander on May 08, 2007, 06:27:24 PM
I too am starting to feel like the rest of you.  It's very exhausting being insulted for your supposed weaknesses and fickleness (man I hate that word).  The funny thing is is that every race that calls us that is showing more of that than we ever have...

We may be able to get non agression pacts with most.

We'd have to agree to terms that would bend us quite a bit with the Dwarfs, Wood Elves, Lizards and Ogres.  I don't personally think it's worth it anymore.  I don't want us to go out of our way to accomodate to others who would push us aside in our own land.

The High Elves will, I think still be non agressive towards us as will the Bretonnians.  Of all of our allies, the Bretonnians would be the only ones who would support us fully (at least the forum).  The Marienburg land grab would be beneficial to us, it's not our land really and we've got a standing beef with the city.

I do not want us to have to work on fluff and for it not to even be considered.  I want to bend the walls of reality, and be allied with the dwarfs, but I don't want to compromise our integrity to do it. 

I believe we will try to bridge the gap one more time with the Dwarfs.  Non agression and supporting fluff is what we will say.  We will not bow to them though.  We stand for having a council of the wise, and we'll stick to it.  Let them say what they will.

If we cannot reach an agreement, I say we still try to honor our friendship.  Write in the fluff that we try to talk reason and work with the Dwarfs, but they do not listen.  Make them out to be the bad guys for turning their backs.  I don't want to fight them, and I think our fluff should state that, but if they want a fight we'll give it to them, but it's their doing, not ours.

The only other factions I'm concerned with now are really the Bretonnians and High Elves.  If the others can have an agreement hashed out with us, then grand.  If not, so be it.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Jerok on May 08, 2007, 11:43:16 PM
Wissenlander, thank you VERY much for keeping it up for a goodly amount of time. I think for now we should drop the outgoings and have them come HERE. If they want something from us, they can come to us. We've sent out our feelers and they haven;t produced anything we really like. When they're ready they can come to us.

On that not, we need to refocus our eyes on the Empire herself. We really need to send out callings to any other Empire forums, along with other General Warhammer sites for Empire players. The other focus we should take is on Dogs of War armies. They should what they can do in the SoC Campaign (stabbed GW fluff until they held that fortress.) We really need to get them on our side.

Any volunteers to go into the Border Princes to find those wandering soles still loyal to the Empire?
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: cisse on May 09, 2007, 01:31:09 AM
Wissenlander, thank you VERY much for keeping it up for a goodly amount of time. I think for now we should drop the outgoings and have them come HERE. If they want something from us, they can come to us. We've sent out our feelers and they haven;t produced anything we really like. When they're ready they can come to us.
Well... Regarding our "official GW" stance in this conflict, it's not that likely many factions would come to us asking for our help - most believe we're after the Crown ourselves, after all. That, and the fact that discussions have been started in other forums and are going on there, would keep people from coming here I think. It'd be easier if they'd come here, yes - I know I've ben doing a lot of zapping between aal kind of forums lately. :icon_rolleyes:

At the moment, we're giving the Dwarfs one more day, as Wissenlander said. We'll see what happens. I don't expect too much from them really, but we can only try. We're not giving in to their whims though, we're not their lapdogs. We are men of the Empire!

Our relations with the Bretonnians and High Elves should also be kept in good form, I think. Even though the majority of the players at Asur.org are in favour of an alliance with the Dwarfs, there are many who believe they should stay either neutral to all "good" races or ally with the Empire (isn't it, Stormbrow? :wink:). I'd like to get things organised over there, and see how many we can get to help us. In any case, this might be very good from a fluff perspective, nice possibilities here. Bret's are mostly neutral, but if they'd have to choose a side, they'd choose us I think. Problem here is of course that GW might decide they get to grab land from us if they do well... The Bret players don't want his, but are they able to change the storyline?

With asrai we can achieve nothing I'm afraid, and the lizardmen don't look good either. They're just against us for our fluff in this campaign. Not worth much effort.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: vadis on May 09, 2007, 01:48:18 AM
Quote
I say we still try to honor our friendship.  Write in the fluff that we try to talk reason and work with the Dwarfs, but they do not listen

Thats a very good idea indeed and another motive for the Empire. Now that you see it, the crown is getting into the mind of the dwarfs. They are so desperate to have it that they forget the great alliance they have. Maybe we can add fluff that in the Empire's point of view, the crown is corrupting the reason of the dwarves.



Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Ostermarker on May 09, 2007, 06:57:19 AM
If it is corrupting the Dwarfs, what does chance man would have?
I think we should write this in fluff, to show corrupting influence, but slowly, we get strange orders from Karl Franz himself, as his quest slowly drives him insane. Attacking innocents, slaughtering all prisoners etc.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Powder Monkey on May 09, 2007, 08:25:06 AM
Now that our in-game talks are more or less coming to an end, I say we should approach every race in their respective forum, to coordinate fluff.

I see this as the second and more important front on which we have to fight: The Fluff front, where the players can all work together to form the Warhammer world at least a bit to their liking. Our 'enemy' here is GW and their sales-supporting fluff. While GW promotes war between dwarfs and the empire because these two are among the latest army books and likely to attract buyers, we have to put some effort into steering the fluff into directions that... I wanted to say reflect the fluff.  :icon_biggrin:

Imagine that: The players try to make the fluff a bit more fluff-like. What has this game come to?

I feel bad for suggesting additional work for the already exhausted ambassadors, but shouldn't we approach every race (including the 'evil' ones) again and try to link fluff? This is not alliances and non-aggression-pacts, but telling them what we are up to and getting informed about their intentions. Imagine the skaven submitting fluff about them interrupting our road-securing business, while we report them doing... their skaven thing. The most important thing is getting mentioned a lot. If the wood elves say "Ts, ts, we'll still not talk to you stupid humans" to this, then I have to say I don't know who the stupid human is, after all.

Jerok, you could post an offical 'Empire mission statement' along with an example mentioning of empire fluff here, and people could just paste it into all other forums there are, asking for their fluff and suggesting coordination of fluff. Maybe we will make progress this way.


Your PM
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: cisse on May 09, 2007, 11:36:58 AM
If it is corrupting the Dwarfs, what does chance man would have?
I think we should write this in fluff, to show corrupting influence, but slowly, we get strange orders from Karl Franz himself, as his quest slowly drives him insane. Attacking innocents, slaughtering all prisoners etc.
Nah.... Remember, he hasn't seen the Crown in all his live, how could he be already corrupted by it? Moreover, I'd be very careful with things like an insane or evil Emperor. If the Epire as a whole would follow his orders and go mad... That's a major shift right there, and not ont I'd like. Mind you, I don't think GW will be doing something like this either.

And I know, you could say KF has gone mad, and replace him at the end of the campaign or something - but he has just received new rules in our NEB, so that's a no-no to GW too I think.

Quote
I feel bad for suggesting additional work for the already exhausted ambassadors, but shouldn't we approach every race (including the 'evil' ones) again and try to link fluff?

Yes, we should. That's the main thing we're trying to do with the Dwarfs right now, something else seems hard to achieve. Nret's and HE's are still getting organised and are debating, but we're monitoring them, and we'll make a fluff proposal if they have sorted things somewhat out. We have to approach every race, also the ones where our negotiations didn't pay of, and the evil races too. I fully agree with Powder Monkey about writing mutually supporting fluff, iy's what I've been saying all along: we can easily make such deals with the evil races, they're not alliances of any kind, and alliances with evil races are still out of the question I think.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: wissenlander on May 09, 2007, 12:05:36 PM
Welcome back Jerok!  Most welcome sight indeed.  I can't take all the credit, Cisse has helped out our cause very much.  We've also had support from Veldemere as well, and if I'm leaving anyone out I do apologize.

Now it's time to see what's happened over the night, I'll post my findings as soon as I get info.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Tostig on May 09, 2007, 12:14:55 PM
Welcome back Jerok. Things have moved at an alarming pace since you've been away, I'm afraid, and the dwarfs have rather got the jump on us.

By the by, does anyone know what the greenskins have been up to?
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: wissenlander on May 09, 2007, 12:17:00 PM
I think they have the Chaos Dwarfs with them.  From what I hear they're very organized as well.

Ah yes, how could I forget Tostig's wonderful scrolls!  Much thanks!
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: cisse on May 09, 2007, 12:27:22 PM
Yes, Orcs have CD support. Rather handy, since they can't report as CD's, and so perhaps will do so as Orcs...

I'm not sure what the "evil" side is up to except that. Anyone who knows something?
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Dendo Star on May 09, 2007, 04:22:08 PM
Are there any Kislev or Dogs Of War forums/communities out there?
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: wissenlander on May 09, 2007, 04:25:05 PM
There is a Dogs of War forum and they've basically decided to choose to fight by whoever they want.  Cisse has done some looking around over at Inquisition del Combre, or whatever the name is, and that's what the consensus was.  Kislev I don't know, I've never heard of one.

By the way, the Woodies are leaning towards an agressive stance.  They don't seem to want to have any sort of non agression towards us, but the vote is still out.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Veldemere on May 09, 2007, 04:38:46 PM
Druchii seem to be keeping themselves to themselves at the moment, just thinking about raiding parties, there has been some talk with an alliance with Slaneshi chaos (too factioned on both sides if you ask me), when they get themselves together the chances are they will be trying to ally with the VC.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: wissenlander on May 09, 2007, 05:24:57 PM
Aye, the Druchii are playing the role of opportunists I believe.  I'm not sure of the role of the skaven, although it can't be good.

I posted a notice at TWF for any Imperial generals there that want to join up with us here.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Demonslayer on May 09, 2007, 05:35:25 PM
So, as for what we want to offer to the bad guys:

Druchii: Yes, but only non-aggression
Dawi zharr: Yes, but only non-aggression
VC: No
Skaven: No

The skaven, I can agree with. But I think there is a good chance of a non-aggression pact with the VC. An alliance is indeed a bit too much, but I think that I made a good point in my letter; they're still weak from the power shift and don't need our interference, we could do without them bugging us as well. So, non agression  :icon_biggrin:!

Maybe an added term of "the messenger must return to us unharmed" would be a good idea, though  :icon_wink:.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: wissenlander on May 09, 2007, 05:39:27 PM
Chaos Dwarfs are fully sided with the orcs I believe.  The Druchii looked to have indicated they would only want to ally themselves with certain forces of chaos as well.  Skaven are to disjointed and back stabby to trust.  Vampire counts...I could see something going down, but the witch hunters would be all over us!
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Dendo Star on May 09, 2007, 05:53:13 PM
Anyone want to make a journey to the Lands Of The Asp Queen?  She's the only one out of all the TOmb Kings who is good and noble and pure and the only one independent of Nagash's Powers.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: wissenlander on May 09, 2007, 05:59:34 PM
I think if we make any sort of alliance with the TK, then we can kiss the Brets good bye.  They lean towards us, but don't want to initiate hostilities with any good race.  They hate the TK though and want nothing more than to strike at them.  If for some reason they are forced to choose a side in this campaign, they will side with us.  But if we ally with the TK, then they'll forget that notion and go with the other side.

As for now it's basically an 'alliance' of Dwarfs, Ogres, Lizardmen, Wood Elves.  High Elves are coming along only for their own interest.  We'll have a group supporting us as well probably.  The focal point is the Dwarfs, they've set up all of it, don't think any of the other groups have really set up relations except for the High Elves and the Woodies.

All of these armies will end up fighting each other anyway, meaning that it's every race for itself, but if they've got numbers they can seek to coordinate attacks better, or something.  I don't know how it will really work.  The only thing that is definite is that it will help them immensely in the fluff department, more supporting stories from more areas.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Veldemere on May 09, 2007, 06:05:46 PM
I agree, lets give up the diplomacy now, we need to send a clear message to the other forums to ensure we offer some continuity of fluff and to the 'friendly' armies issue a warning that we will not tolerate an invasion in our lands without threat of retribution.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: wissenlander on May 09, 2007, 06:09:39 PM
Indeed.

I'm not sure how this works out, but the Dwarfs will support us in fluff terms.  Whoever heads up that department will work out the terms. 

What it means basically is that while we are openly at war, there can be instances where we can support one another in stories.

Eg.  Dwarfs here of a village being attacked by beastmen and move to help out, a dwarf force and an Empire army meet across the battlefield and set aside differences to fight an arriving orc threat, before a battle the opposing commanders shake hands and apologize for what they have to do-but an order is an order and it must be followed.  Stuff like that.

Beyond that, nothing much can be done.  Especially with the Dwarfs.

There are still a couple of ambassadors hard at work.  The discussions have almost ceased, but I don't want to close them off to early.  We may be able to get 'fluff alliances' with old friends such as the Elves or Lizards.  In game terms we cannot expect much, but as far as story and influence presented to GW, we still might have a chance.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Dendo Star on May 09, 2007, 06:12:40 PM
Okay, sounds good if we drop the Diplomacy.  Brets can't be neutral through all of this.

I guess it'll be 2 schools of thought throughout the campaign.

1. Reality.  If the Empire needs to fight Dwarf armies, we need to fight Dwarf armies.  This of course will never be reflected in fluff.  Just as matcheds in the real world.  We can always pull it out that we womped 'em in the Nemesis Campaignas players.  Just really wouldn't have happened that way in the game universe.


2. Fluff.  Here, alliances don't really matter.  We can all write our own thing and be respectful of GW's main story.


Edit!  Man, you beat me to it Wiss.  Tell the Dwarfs we take their Fluff Alliance with great enthusiasm!
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Ernst Brauer on May 09, 2007, 07:30:30 PM
While I would like to commend the efforts of everyone in this, I am slightly miffed.

There should be unequivocally, whole-heartedly, and utterly completely no relations AT ALL with any of the evil or semi-evil races. This goes against everything that Sigmar teaches us. as was said before, anyone who even THINKS this should have the with hunters knocking at their doors.

Have you forgotten the painstaking efforts of the church of Sigmar and even Morr to stifle the undead, skaven, and chaos in any form (Dwarf or Man)? Whole villages have been burned for less! It is not as simple as them being "enemies", but because they are an utter blasphemous abomination that the mere idea of their existence should make us retch in disgust. The only thing a man should do when near one is kill it.

The church and government try their best to make sure most of the citizens of the Empire don't even think half these races exist, let alone TALKING openly with them.

If our "allies" chose to abandon us, so be it, but this being so, we should then stand alone. We are the bigest and mightiest country in all the world. The men of the Empire should rather fight alone alongside fellow Imperials and have us all die and our homes burned than to even let the thought of the less favorable races even enter our minds.

Sigmar would turn over in his grave if he knew what some of the generals here are suggesting. Any sort of communication with the Undead, Skaven, Chaos, Chaos Dwarves, or Dark Elves is out of the question. I would rather fight them all.

We have a moral duty to save our souls as well as our lands. The choice is obvious.

I'm beginning to think we need to remain isolationist and "take all comers" that step foot in our forrests.....  :dry:
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Dendo Star on May 09, 2007, 07:38:08 PM
I did advocate the Tomb Queen.  But she is actually good, not evil.  I would never allow an alliance between Skaven, or Chaos or Undead or Chaos Elves.

The Queen (whose name is impossible for me to remember, starts with an "n") is broguht back to "life" by the Asp God and is is no way related to Nagash, the Undead, or even tyranny in general.  She was a good Queen killed thousands of years agao by her sister, one of the first Vampires.  Just to defend myself.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Ernst Brauer on May 09, 2007, 07:41:35 PM
While I understand, any undead is undead that need to be killed, whether or not they believe they are good or not.  :happy:
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Stormbrow II on May 09, 2007, 10:10:35 PM
Quote
Our relations with the Bretonnians and High Elves should also be kept in good form, I think. Even though the majority of the players at Asur.org are in favour of an alliance with the Dwarfs, there are many who believe they should stay either neutral to all "good" races or ally with the Empire (isn't it, Stormbrow? wink).
Aye, but it seems like I'm fighting a losing battle tbh.  There's a much larger group that want to ally with the Dawi, but I'll fight my corner and try to round up as many as possible to side with yourselves though I can't guarantee anything (if the remainder want to go with an NAP then it'll be easiest for the lot of us to do such a thing as we won't have to remember who's who).  It has to be said that this is based on ye not jumping into bed with the Druchii, or realistically any of the evil races as it's too hard to justify an such alliance/NAP on our part.

Khalida is the one you're thinking of: she was killed in combat by Neferata if I'm not mistaken.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Dendo Star on May 09, 2007, 10:29:42 PM
Yes!

That's the girl.  The only good force in the Land Of The Dead.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Ostermarker on May 10, 2007, 06:55:46 AM
I think that we should stick to trying to ally with just the good races (and mayhap the neutrals). If they decide to break the council of light, we could easily add this to the fluff:

AS we were approached by our friends the dwarfs, they readied the weapons, and charged, double-crossing us. though this we require polishing up and adding individual names etc.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Shifte on May 10, 2007, 10:42:06 AM
Why not play the Elves off of t'Dwarfs?

The small Halfling spoke. Sent by Elder Hisme himself, he was to offer the advice of the Moot.

Ah' mean really, we could do sommat ter make t'Dwarfs get in a bad way wiff t'Brettonianerismsers. Or those 'igh Elfers. What would 'appen if an Elven Ship mysteriously was, like, sank, wiff a Dwarven cannonballermajig. They'd think it was t'em Dwarfers, eh? 


Taking a bite of his Unidentified Blueberry Pie (UBP) the Hobbit grinned.

And if ye' know, we can shoot a good bow. Dwarfs might even fink we was Elfers fae t'woods shootin', if way took out a load of 'em fae a bush.


Nodding politely, he ate some crumbs from his chest. While revealing his long, Oak longbow.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: wissenlander on May 10, 2007, 11:38:02 AM
Welcome representative of the Moot.  There have been efforts to play one off of the other, but we are not in the position to really exploit such things.  There has been a lot of debate over past grudges and this has almost ripped their alliance apart.  But as Stormbrow stated, there is still enough of a presence of those who support one.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: cisse on May 10, 2007, 11:45:12 AM
What Wissenlander said.

I think we should try and get some of the HE on our side, that should be posible even if most of those who want an alliance want to go with the Dwarfs. I'll start working on it.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Veldemere on May 10, 2007, 01:01:42 PM
We have a reasonable ammount of sympathy and understanding from the woodies now, I have been contacted by a number of them supporting us and willing to co-operate with fluff. Sadly it seems the most vocal (and generally least pleasant) will not support us (no names but I am going to shoot me an owl!).

How is it going with the HE?

The Druchii seem to only be self interested, which at least means they are being true to fluff, they also do not seem to have been approached.

Anyone watching the VC?
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Dendo Star on May 10, 2007, 01:42:19 PM
Why not play the Elves off of t'Dwarfs?

The small Halfling spoke. Sent by Elder Hisme himself, he was to offer the advice of the Moot.

Ah' mean really, we could do sommat ter make t'Dwarfs get in a bad way wiff t'Brettonianerismsers. Or those 'igh Elfers. What would 'appen if an Elven Ship mysteriously was, like, sank, wiff a Dwarven cannonballermajig. They'd think it was t'em Dwarfers, eh? 


Taking a bite of his Unidentified Blueberry Pie (UBP) the Hobbit grinned.

And if ye' know, we can shoot a good bow. Dwarfs might even fink we was Elfers fae t'woods shootin', if way took out a load of 'em fae a bush.


Nodding politely, he ate some crumbs from his chest. While revealing his long, Oak longbow.

Good to see the Moot!  Welcome noble Ranger!  I like the way you think. 

However, we only need to resort to those tactics in the worst case scenario.  Such as if one side is driven mad by The Crown.  Still, good ideas.  Damn good.  But really last ditch actions.

If I could ask though, could I request you Smallbows keep a heavy patrol around Sylvania?  I have a rather terrible feeling about the possibility of a Vampire incursion.  And frankly, you guys can put a hurt on any force in the west from a pretty safe distance.

I also want to say Halflings are valuable parts of The Empire and always welcome in battle!

((And if we put up enough fluff regarding Halflings, maybe GW will pay attention and give them back to us the next time our book comes around!))
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: wissenlander on May 10, 2007, 01:53:37 PM
Well, I know a lot of alliances didn't really work out.  But we can still get some fluff organization.

The Lizards think, and it makes sense, that since they live so far away they are basically unknown to most of the Empire.  That being said, there isn't much of a reason for them to side with us in this campaign.

The Dwarfs although against us said they would support fluff.

Some Woodies will support us, others won't.  Apparently the seperate Kindreds think differently.  This is the same for the High Elves.  I think some will support our fluff, while some won't.  Stormbrow and company will support us in this endeavour I believe.

The Bretonnians will support us in fluff terms I think, and they want to make it clear that they're not turning their backs on us.  They have such a little part in this campaign they're not going to soil their name by turning on their friends for something so silly.  I must applaud them for that I must say.

I think we have to start looking at alliances in fluff terms though.  GW has put up a front one way, and we submit stuff to determine what happens.  The way things are transpiring, I can see this working out that way.

The only issue is that we will have to coordinate with other forums for fluff, and we will probably have to go into debates about what we want as opposed to what they want.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Shifte on May 10, 2007, 02:28:43 PM
Ah'll dae that. The Fieldwardens are experts at dealing wiff those what should be dead.

Taking another careful munch of his pie, the Halfling gave a small salute. Turning back, his cloak blowing in the wind, he set off for the Moot to inform The Elector of the Moot. Elder Hisme.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Dendo Star on May 10, 2007, 03:27:07 PM
Say, who are the Ogres allied with?
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: wissenlander on May 10, 2007, 03:28:32 PM
Dwarfs.  Strongly with Dwarfs.  They actually approached the Dwarfs like a week or two ago.  They were allies before we even left our castles to seek out old allegiances.  But there is a clause saying that not all ogres are bound to it, just the ogres from their forum. 
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Dendo Star on May 10, 2007, 03:35:49 PM
Ah, I couldn't remember who they were allied with.

Good to see them getting along, at least.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Captain Tineal on May 10, 2007, 05:48:35 PM
Well I don't have a problem with us standing on our own.  Sigmar united men.  Sigmar saved the Dwarfs (and they seem to forget that quicker than a grudge!), and Sigmar will see us through this!  If they want to walk in our lands under a banner of war, they better have a whole chapter in their book of Grudges waiting for me, because I intend to have me an overcoat (and matching mocassins) made of beards!

We are the Empire, mightiest nation of Men!  We are here because our will, and our spirit is indominable!
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Dendo Star on May 10, 2007, 06:07:15 PM
See, now that's Imperial spirit!
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Captain Tineal on May 10, 2007, 06:17:14 PM
I don't fight often, but when I do, you better be sure I'm going to win  :icon_twisted: and its been said of me that I make a great friend, but a terrible enemy  :icon_twisted: :icon_twisted:
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Otaku on May 10, 2007, 07:34:36 PM
Halflings have a high tolerance to evil right? Or is that just in Lord of the Rings? Since the Moot is a part of the Empire no ambassador is needed to have them on our side. Yeah I know there is no Halfling virtual community to talk to. But whoever writes fluff could have a contingent of halfling rangers with each Empirial force to destroy the crown as everyone else turns on each other and goes mad...... Something like that to help us out in the fluff department So far this whole effort sounds like Lord of the Rings accept our council of light broke up before it even got started.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Jerok on May 10, 2007, 10:34:55 PM
Keep this on topic guys.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Jerok on May 11, 2007, 12:15:36 AM
This thread has been Stickied! This is because it will now serve as our Base of Operations for everything Foreign related, from Alliances to Spying.

Any new theads on this issue will just be merged into this one unless i'm told specificaly why NOT to and I agree with it.


I love being a mod :icon_biggrin:
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: cisse on May 11, 2007, 12:22:58 AM
Jerok,

Could it be possible to have some parts of this forum hiddn? Most other sites already have gone "underground", and I think we should do so too. We don't want our enemies (and former friends) finding out all details about our strategy and diplomacy after all. Wissenlander and I have already discussed this, and sent pm's to GH and Warlord, but so far nothing has really been done. What do you think, should things remain as they are now or should we have a hidden forum?
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Jerok on May 11, 2007, 12:36:39 AM
Truly, it REALLY doesn't matter. It's impossible to actually counter-attack and such, as we can only organize what we have, and even then we're split up into 9 regions (actually, 6 as 3 aren't represented yet on these forums).

If people really want to look at our plans for fluff and storylines, let them. I actually encourage them to contact me so we can try and co-ordinate fluff between races good and bad.

During and Before the Medusa V campaign I served at Librarium-Online under the IG/SM/Inq alliance. This thing was litterally internet-wide, with Warseer serving as a hub and spreading out everywhere. This is mainly because there are generally more 40k players, at least on the net.
Anyways, we didn't know what to suspect, so everything was compartmentalized etc etc to keep things hidden. I was a Spy for the commanders on LO and higher, and was able to infiltrate the Chaos HQ site, Sepulchre of the Gods. This was an invite-only forum and it took me a good month to get in. I got lots of goodies for my side and was never suspected, but you know what? IT DIDN'T MEAN ANYTHING.

What would we do if we found out that Bugmans was going to co-ordinate a specific region to attack a specific point in the region all at once during the week. Guess what we would do? Nothing Different. With our Mission Statement we ahve a set standard for what we want. If they are going to attack something we don't want, why get involved? If they are attacking our fortifications, we are already posting our wins there so it doesn't make a difference.

Seriously, it doesn't really matter. If we did hide stuff it would just be infiltrated anyways by people who are either A) Already members on the board and are fighting for another faction this time around or B) people who do what I did and fake it all the way through. No matter what we do people will get in. Then we'd get into the matter of guessing who's spies and becoming paranoid and angering people etc. Hell, if it came down to it any of us could not even play Empire. I could play Dwarfs or Orcs and be faking you all out to screw you over for Da-Warpath or Bugmans....

Anyways, there isn't a 'hide thread' button either available to me, we'd need a whole other board for it...
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Dendo Star on May 11, 2007, 12:39:11 AM
Jerok, I'm glad you're in charge.  :happy:
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: cisse on May 11, 2007, 01:50:41 AM
I know we'd need a separate board for it, and that it'd mean a major change. It won't matter paehaps, not with these kinds of campaigns, not with us only reaching and directing a (very) limited number of the players participating. I just feel uncomfortable with people from other sites gong through all our stuff, I do not like it, and we know it's going to happen.

I do no like spying of any sort. Jerok, I like you from what I see here, you do a wonderful job here, and I'm absolutely sure you have done nothing wrong in se, but it's a bit... I don't know what, perhaps disappointing, to see that even you have fallen for the trap. Why spying? Even it won't make much of a difference, it takes away part of the fun. If the opponent doesn't want you to see something, you don't go looking.

That said, you're probably absolutely right. Paranoïa can be a bitch, I've seen otherwise great members of other sites blame each other of spying, wouldn't want to see it here. Thinking about it, I too am glad you're in charge. :-) I'm stil not comfortable with people coming here and knowing our plans, but it won't matter anyway... Just a feeling. Yes, I'm definitely glad you're in charge, again. And glad that I asked your opinion on this. :-)
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Dendo Star on May 11, 2007, 02:02:24 AM
A paranoid person is just someone with all the facts.

Heheh. I say we do this proper military style.  Jerok is the commander, and we fight under him.  He gives he orders, we follow.  We provide council, and lead our armies.

I am under the regional command of Wissenlander, who is under the Supreme Commander Jerok.  And Jerok serves the Emperor.

All hail Sigmar, and all hail Karl-Franz!  We are the men of the Empire!  Under the Creator of all things we fight for the freedom against evil!  Against Chaos we stand!  Together we stand victorious! 

Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Jerok on May 11, 2007, 02:06:05 AM
Thanks for the support guys.

Oh, and Cisse, I was young and reckless then, those long 12 months ago, and no one knew what that campaign would spawn in the future. Spying was all I could do to stay above the general 40k masses.

You see, I have this thing where I REALLY need to be important. I dunno, it's just weird. I was just a general person at that point on the Forums, so spying was how I set myself apart, at least behind the scenes. If things got really heated for this campaign I would condone spying, but other wise we should try to WORK TOGETHER with other forums, not spy on them.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: cisse on May 11, 2007, 02:13:31 AM
Oh, and Cisse, I was young and reckless then, those long 12 months ago, and no one knew what that campaign would spawn in the future. Spying was all I could do to stay above the general 40k masses.
No need to apologise, I know exaclt how you feel. I like to be involved as much as possible too. Luckily, I never came to the idea that spying might be a way to do that little more. You're probably just more inventive than I am. :wink:
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Jerok on May 11, 2007, 02:28:05 AM
Well, they were looking for people, so I made a little pm to the Spy Master and got meself set up as the most important spy in the system, branching out into Anti-Spy Warfare and Subterfuge  :icon_twisted:

Anyways, back to the topic at hand....

Anyone know any other Empire or Dogs of War sites? All i've heard of is the Cobras one, any news on that either?
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: vadis on May 11, 2007, 05:11:19 AM
Hi, this may not be that important. I'm searching Spanish Empire forums on the net (mostly from Spain). I'm trying to make a roll call for them to join the site. Or at least, be a liaison to give them any orders or battle plans. I'm starting to post on them tomorrow after my final exam. I hope they respond to the call, we need the presence over there. Any news I will report them here.

Hermanos imperiales, he venido a hacer un llamado a las armas contra las fuerzas invasoras que amenazan nuestras tierras. Se ha oido de un artefacto enano de gran poder que se encuentra en los gloriosos bosques del Imperio. Es nuestro deber defender esa corona, y que no caiga en manos del enemigo...

Traduction: <My fellow Imperial brothers. I have come to make a calling to war against the invading forces that threaten our lands. It has been heard that a powerful dwarven artifact is in Imperial soil. It's our duty to stop our enemies that want to claim it...

You can add more to the message of course.

Thats what I have in mind for an initial statement (to expand, I'm adding mission statement, the hunters of sigmar, etc). What do you plan to do with the communities that want to join the battle (Spanish talking)?


Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Veldemere on May 11, 2007, 07:49:05 AM
We need to set up a constant line of communication to the Spanish language sites, they will be vital for our fluff. Am I to gather from your post Vadis that you are a spanish speaker? If so an update as to what they have been discussing would be very useful, similarly any other bi or tri lingual people can we see if there are other foreign language boards.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: MrAnderssen on May 11, 2007, 08:28:50 AM
I was wondering, with the alliances ( which I am not happy with) we are not aloud to post battles with the dwarves n fluff etc. I like to put most of battles in my fluff and would it be fone if I wrote that they were rebel "insert army name" who do not have the same abitions  as the rest of the race. I had a battle with another empire player and was going to write that they were robbers etc. this way I am not actually goign against empire, i am going against an individual force that happen to live in the empire.
Mr.Anderssen
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: cisse on May 11, 2007, 11:42:30 AM
We need to set up a constant line of communication to the Spanish language sites, they will be vital for our fluff. Am I to gather from your post Vadis that you are a spanish speaker? If so an update as to what they have been discussing would be very useful, similarly any other bi or tri lingual people can we see if there are other foreign language boards.
I'm currently searching for some french forums, could be a while though before I have some results. I've never been to much WH sites except this one, asur and warseer...

@ Jerok: the DoW's at the Inquisition del Cobre site are going to decide each for their own who they're fighting for. Most will be choosing dwarfs (or Ogre Kingdoms) or empire, though.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Veldemere on May 11, 2007, 01:23:26 PM
If anyone is on warseer that seems to be most peoples starting points to finding their armys forum, if someone posts on there you may find the foreign language sites.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Veldemere on May 11, 2007, 01:45:24 PM
Dwarves and VC are talking to agree fluff, only read third hand accounts so far but it looks like their combined fluff will not work out well for us..... more to follow.

from Carpe Noctem:

Slowly into the darkness a lone dwarf enters. His hair is long and orange and he wears nothing bar a loin cloth. Even in the den of the walking dead he showed no fear. Looking around trying to find a listener he calls to the darkness

"Hail walking dead,

I am Eddy Longrod, of the Firmshaft clan. Ambassador from Bugmans Brewery. Let it be known to one and all that I am a Slayer. Now I re-assert my oath, for further dishonour have I brought on myself and clan as I open communications with the undead. Once this Nemesis War is over I will make my way to the Slayer Hold, our mighty citadel Karak Kadrin. There I will cast the locks from my beard in to the furnace fires at the temple of Grimnir, recanting my death song. I am already as good as death to my friends and kin, continue I must in my role as ambassador for the Council of Thanes has commanded that I go.
Necessity brings me here to Slyvania, to Carpe Noctem to parley, with the creatures of the night.
I will not mince my words like an elfing or make false promises like a manling. We Dawi are an honourable race and it greatly aggrieves me to negotiate with you practisers of the Dark Arts. Much evil have the von Carsteins blood line inflected on our once Empire allies. Allies who we Dawi stood shoulder to shoulder with and turned back the shambling undead hordes. Now it has come to this that I present myself before the Lords of Midnight. I state the grounds around which negotiations can precede.

I: Due to the grudges recorded against vampire’s counts, there can never be any prospect of a formal alliance.
II: Due to the grudges recorded against vampire’s counts, there can never be any prospect of a formal pact.
II: There is the possibility of mutual supportive fluff, between the two races. Our rangers report that an ancient evils stirs in Slyvania. Undead activity seems to focus on the Slyvania area. Do the undead masters seek to re-establish their own undead empire, within the Empire!
This initial proposal is as follows:
When Vampire count players submit fluff along with their battle results, they include a Dawi positive storyline. (This will be defined at a later date, if any agreement can be reached).
The Dawi players will in turn, add some positive Vampire Count fluff.
I.E. “Dawi rangers report that there is much undead activity within the Slyvania province, all along the Slyvania border undead armies secure vital crossings and strengthen fortification….”
In short as one of the big three in this campaign, we seek to bolster the fluff war for yourselves if you agree to do the same for us. The Vampire counts war is directly with Empire and not with the Dawi. Undoubtedly Dawi Throngs and undead armies will clash, but I re-iterate that we are not the Vampire Counts primary focus during this conflict.

I await your reply."

(On a personal note, I think the Vampire Counts have been given a raw deal already in this campaign. ManFred von Carstein, should be leading the undead host.)

as you have guessed form the post. the whole idea is to try and form the fluff from the campaign how we would like - to a point. we know we cant get sweeping changes but if mulitiple players post the same general stuff in the reports or fluff there is a good chance that gw will incorperate it in the final fluff. the dwarves and undead cant really allie but the plan is we can at least put notes in like "the forces of the undead though stopped in this battle have pushed all along the boarders threatening the empire". if the undead reports show similar comments for the dwarves then "those in the ivory tower" may listen.

if those here agree i will inform the thanes in the war council in Bugman's Brewery and we shall move from there

Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: wissenlander on May 11, 2007, 01:58:53 PM
I will not mince my words like an elfing or make false promises like a manling. We Dawi are an honourable race and it greatly aggrieves me to negotiate with you practisers of the Dark Arts. Much evil have the von Carsteins blood line inflected on our once Empire allies. Allies who we Dawi stood shoulder to shoulder with and turned back the shambling undead hordes.

I love this part.  Contradictory even still the Dwarfs are during this campaign.

The Dwarfs said they would support us in fluff as did the orcs.  I assume the Asur will as well, along with the Bretonnians.  This is great in practice, but I'm not sure how all of these races will coordinate what they want.  I'm not taking too much of an active part in fluff, I'll do my bit here and there if need be (I'll probably get sucked into it during the campaign though) but it may be complicated for Micheal W and his budding staff.

I say do what you have to Veldemere, but the places I have mentioned we already have ties with.  No need to restart conversations that have already been had.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Dendo Star on May 11, 2007, 02:00:23 PM
Yar, well said Wiss.

I'll get on Warseer once their board for the Campaign opens up and direct the gents over there to here.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: cisse on May 11, 2007, 02:08:02 PM
The Dwarfs said they would support us in fluff as did the orcs.  I assume the Asur will as well, along with the Bretonnians.  This is great in practice, but I'm not sure how all of these races will coordinate what they want.  I'm not taking too much of an active part in fluff, I'll do my bit here and there if need be (I'll probably get sucked into it during the campaign though) but it may be complicated for Micheal W and his budding staff.

I say do what you have to Veldemere, but the places I have mentioned we already have ties with.  No need to restart conversations that have already been had.
No, no need to restart conversations that have ended. But I do think we should make these fluff alliances a bit more formal. That's partially up to our fluff department (as soon as we have one), of course. But we should agree with those races what we want in each other's fluff, and what we don't want.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Dendo Star on May 11, 2007, 02:30:21 PM
Agreed.  Wisselnader is going to go on a diplomatic mission to the others, since he's already put in work and made a lot of contacts.

Point number one is that we explain in no uncertain terms to our fluff allies we will treat all Fluff we write about their races with respect.

This goes for Dwarfs, High Elves, Athel Loren, Lizardmen, Dogs Of War, Ogres and Bretonnia.  Also Marienburg and Kislev forces.  Estalia to, should they be involved.

Of course, it is important we put whatever we can about our brothers the Halflings and Imperial Dwarfs to!  Show GW how important they are to our play experience as Warhammer Empire players!
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: wissenlander on May 11, 2007, 02:42:16 PM
Well, in theory the Dwarfs already agreed to a fluff alliance.  If they agree with the Vampires then eventually the conflict of interest will arise.

We can make fluff alliances with everyone, of course everyone wants their fluff supported.  It's when the table is turned and then they have to support someone elses.

We should only really have fluff alliances, in my opinion, with those that would actually prove to support us.  I believe the Bretonnians would do this.  In some regards the Dwarfs would, if they don't play WAAC and the Asur would.

I've been somewhat blinded thus far and I believe I've been placing my efforts in the wrong place.  I've been trying to secure 'real world' alliances, when what we need are fluff alliances.  

I'm not sure the Dwarfs will want to support what we want in the campaign, although they might work on some things.

The Asrai have stated they won't be 'non agressive' towards us, but basically we harm the forests then they attack.  If we don't then they won't.  So it is sort of non agressive in a different sense.

The Bretonnian 'crusade' can be reworked, and has been discussed at the Roundtable.  Basically, they want to stay neutral and not destroy old ties to the Conclave.  They can still support against bad guys though, and we can either grant them lands for the help, or they can take it, which doesnt make sense.  There are talks, although nothing substantial yet, of the Marches of Courrene(sp) being an area for them.  If we do grant them land, then they would pay homage to the local lord and we could work out an agreement that way.

Asur are split, but we can talk with Stormbrow and company on supporting fluff.

Lizards and ogres don't have much of a reason to support us right now as they've got their agreements going.

Basically, it comes down to who really will support our fluff.  That's really what all the alliances are about, let's not kid ourselves any longer.  No point on presenting these alliances only to not have them work out in the end.

If the Dwarfs propose a fluff treaty with the VC and they accept, then the relations upon the alliance between Empire-Dwarf-Vampire will be strained (this is just as an example, other such alliances would be potentially the same way).  There will come a time in the campaign where our fluff will be of a different opinion of what the VC want, and then the Dwarfs will have to decide.  

I hope I'm not just talking for no reason.  Does anyone else see what I'm saying?  If we make fluff alliances with everyone, then it will be impossible for us to submit stuff because no one will agree on what to submit.  I really think we should work on fluff alliances with those that will support us, and in turn we can truely support them.  So to rehash,

Dwarfs:  Old allies, don't want to fight but must.  Because of this the ogres come into play and can support as well.

Brets:  They'll help us with fluff if we actually promise them lands for those who want it, they won't attack us, but don't expect them to attack the dwarfs.  They will help against baddies though.

High Elves: Split, we work with the ones that will support us.

Wood Elves:  They want to preserve trees, we want to burn them.  I don't think it will work out.

Lizards:  No common ground, they think we're weak and evil.

Bad guys...as much as I'd like to, so we can put out a 'surpressing fluff barage', it may not work.  The orcs probably will have different ideas then us, and I'm not sure if we can come to grips with it all.  Some of their fluff is very well written, but as an example:  They take off from the Battle of da Bosses campaign in Canada.  They destroy the fort and millions of orcs flood into the Empire destroying and pillaging.  Would anyone here support that?

Now I'm not saying that we couldn't reach an agreement, if we can than that's good.  And I'm not picking on just that one fluff article at all, just an example.

I also apologize for what may appear to be a sudden change of heart.  But I just fully realized this.  Sorry for such a long post, but I think that we really really need to reconsider who we talk to and how we plan on getting supporting fluff going.

Also, if an agreement can be worked out with a group that is directly against us then great.  Cisse will be conducting relations with Dwarfs on official stuff later I think, and the lines of communication are still open with orcs...so don't let me discourage anyone from trying.  I just wanted to let everyone know I think we may have been going about this the wrong way.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: wissenlander on May 11, 2007, 02:43:12 PM
@Dendo:  I agree.  If we ally with anyone on fluff we need to really consider helping them out as well.  We must be supporting each other and respect the alliance and seek not to attack them in it, or at least to come to an agreement if we can on it.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: smithbl on May 11, 2007, 02:56:58 PM
Gentlemen:

I cannot believe anyone would think of giving away any of the sacred soil to Brets ... let's stick with WE, HE, and DW's,

MH
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: wissenlander on May 11, 2007, 03:11:03 PM
Sigh.  Out of all of the forums, the Bret one has been the one that has shown the most support as a whole.  They're not the biggest, but we've got some support there. 

I'm not suggesting giving away Nuln, or anything such as that.  What I'm saying is that it could be possible for us to come to an agreement, based upon what GW has already laid out to give them lands that no one uses/wants already.  I mentioned the area around Marienburg because it doesn't directly involve our lands and it would be something of a combined effort on our parts to get something we both wanted and still fit into the fluff GW has presented.

The Wood Elves are so split it's hard to tell what they want.  A lot of insults and death to the humans, now they could've been the most active and I'm sure some Woodies support us.  But it doesn't show that.

The High Elves are split, most want with the Dwarfs.  Support the side that wants in and don't worry about the others.

Dwarfs.  While our oldest friends, haven't done much to help us out in the last 2 weeks.  They've got the entire old Conclave against us.

I feel as though I keep repeating myself, so I apologize.  But I've seen what these forums are saying and we can't just keep the blinders on.  If fluff is a key factor in this campaign and the forums are the biggest contributor of fluff, we need to work with the forums and what their members are supporting.

And most of these forums do not support us in some shape or form.  The one that does give us a positive slant is the Brets.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Dendo Star on May 11, 2007, 03:13:13 PM
I'm sure the only region the Brets could carve out for themselves is either in the Border Princes or the Southlands/Badlands areas.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: wissenlander on May 11, 2007, 03:19:47 PM
I believe that came up as well, Dendo.  And I'm not saying that I'm giving into the Brets, but what I am saying is that they are the ones that we can most easily talk to.

The Dwarfs have stated that they want the crown, and we cannot give them the crown.  So how does that work in a fluff context?  I'm not sure, I hope Cisse can find a way in his discussions with them.  Because if an agreement is arranged that is suitable, then I will support it.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Dendo Star on May 11, 2007, 03:23:10 PM
Well, we simply declare we won't let Crown from falling into Chaos's hands.

We can then fight Skaven, Undead, Beastmen, Chaos Elves or anyother "evil" army to prevent them from obtaing the Crown - without stepping on any beards.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: wissenlander on May 11, 2007, 03:40:17 PM
I'm proposing a fluff alliance to the Brets for negotiations.  This is what I say in it:

1) Non agression betwixt our nations (Unless you sign an alliance with the Dwarfs, then you would have to attack us and I don't see our fluff objectives then meeting eye to eye.)

2) Support of each other against all races deemed evil.  Evil races including:  Tomb Kings, Vampire Counts, Orcs and Goblins, Skaven, Dark Elves, Chaos Dwarfs, Chaos in it's many forms and any other that is deemed appropriate.

3) We shall seek to have the Nemesis Crown not fall into any evil race's hands and if either side finds it, will dispose of the crown as they see fit, be it by a Council of the Wise or by turning it over to the 'proper authorities.'

4) Land issue: 
    4a)We can support some of your Knights Errant gaining land (who seek it) from services in support of the Empire.  This would not mean members of the old Conclave, that would infringe upon your non agression pact you had with them or any other of the members:  These members including the Dwarfs, High and Wood Elves, Bretonnia, the Empire and possibly the Lizardmen if you think it proper.
    4b)These lands are at this moment subject to review.  We expect the campaign to go well, but we cannot forsee which lands will be suitable for your noble knights that earn land.  That being said, we shall leave the land specifics until after the campaign.  If actions regarding the Badlands or Marienburg are brought up, the Empire will coordinate with Bretonnia on campaigning.

5) Coordination between fluff writers will be had before any articles are submitted to GW.  In this matter we will both achieve objectives we want to occur in the coming campaign.


If this is not to the satisfactory of everyone here, let me know.  I'm just posting it to get discussion and negotiation going since I cannot wait for a vote.  It's there for your scrutiny as it is for the Brets as well. 
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Dendo Star on May 11, 2007, 03:45:45 PM
Excellent!  I says send it off.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Demonslayer on May 11, 2007, 06:30:37 PM
Quote
(On a personal note, I think the Vampire Counts have been given a raw deal already in this campaign. ManFred von Carstein, should be leading the undead host.)

Not true. He's dead. Confirmed at the blood keep site.

So, no that even the dwarfs are talking about fluff agreements with VC, can I FINALLY start negotiations with the dark races :icon_wink:?
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Dendo Star on May 11, 2007, 06:37:44 PM
Never.  I would not allow an alliance with a foul race.

Maybe Greenskins.  But NOBODY with an "I Honk For Dark Flesh" bumper sticker.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: wissenlander on May 11, 2007, 06:47:49 PM
I defer this decision to Jerok.  I have no idea.  There's reasoning for both.  Has anyone read my long winded thread? 
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Dendo Star on May 11, 2007, 07:00:51 PM
I did, but I must stay my ground.

No working together with any Undead or Chaos race.  Skaven to are creatures born of Chaos.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Demonslayer on May 11, 2007, 07:23:02 PM
Quote
Has anyone read my long winded thread?


Which one  :icon_wink:?
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: wissenlander on May 11, 2007, 07:27:37 PM
Touche...

The one about the fluff alliances, the last long one I had.  Not that big of a deal, just wondered if anyone saw it and said, oh crap here he goes again and skipped it.  Wouldn't totally blame anyone if they did. :wink:

It's a general feeling by some that it's best to have alliances made before the campaign site opens up.  General orders given by the different factions and the decisiveness of that should help out the new people and give them confidence that we know what we're talking about.  Maybe this is hinting at a discussion board of some sort, I don't know.  But we may be able to recruit some new people that way.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Jerok on May 11, 2007, 07:32:47 PM
I *think* I agree with what Wissenlander was saying, if I understand him correctly.

Basicly here's how it is guys. Viable 'in-game' races for alliance are as follows, those stricken out have already been tried and just will not work to what we want, or is proper......

Dwarfs
High Elves
Wood Elves
Bretts
Ogre Mercenaries

Other than those we really don't have any chance of In-Game alliances. Since Dwarfs, WE and Ogres are already into other *things* then we are left with the High Elves, who are on the fence I believe, and the Bretts. I would think working closely with the Bretts would work out very well, as we can gift them with our full acceptance of a campaign against Marienburg or in the Badlands.

In fluff co-ordination Outside the game, everyone is a possibility, but we may not actually WANT everyone. So far those I think worthy of actual co-ordination are...

Orcs - Da-Warpath
Bretts - Roundtable

This is simply because at Da-Warpath they are very open and helped in kick-starting our own organization. Also i've seen alot of talking about talks with round-table, so it should work out there. I didn't include Bugmans Brewery for one simple reason... they pissed me off. The fact that they have not only gone to all other sites except ours, are trying to make non-aggression alliance with Vampires and are very pushy about what they want  all say that we will gain nothing by aiding or being aided by them.

So right now i'm saying keep scouting out both good and bad, but don't make any formal requests to Evil yet. We'll see how the Bretts react, and hopefully pull in DoW.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: wissenlander on May 11, 2007, 07:42:19 PM
Yes you did get what I meant.  Glad you see my perspective.  And I must say I support it one hundred percent. :eusa_clap:
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Dendo Star on May 11, 2007, 07:44:41 PM
Bravo!

I'm glad my 2 commanding officers are good at this.

I, to, am utterly horrified by Dwarfen envoys speaking with the Vampires.  Unfathomable.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Otaku on May 12, 2007, 05:42:47 AM
I'm not so involved with this so you can ignore me if you want to but if this fluff is going to affect official fluff than I would agree with Dendo. NO ALLIANCES WITH EVIL THINGS! Besides,  I don't think GW would ever write it up in official fluff anyways. We are the super power of the warhammer world! We can go it alone if we have to. If there not with us, there against us!  Of course than we will be hated by everyone if this goes anything like the real world.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Warlord on May 12, 2007, 08:25:21 AM
Basically, it comes down to who really will support our fluff.  That's really what all the alliances are about, let's not kid ourselves any longer.  No point on presenting these alliances only to not have them work out in the end.
This is what I said a few pages ago.

Sorry guys, but count me out of this campaign now. GW put an entirely poor premise on us, by not thinking out their campaign much. Now, with the new releases for our miniature line to 'finish us off' means well will not get any new miniatures for the next 5-7 years. This is a financial blunder IMO for GW to make, meaning that all the new races get new stuff, and sales for older armies are not fostered.

What annoys me just as much, the Dwarves are acting entirely out of character and what they are doing is making me sick. They talk about us as the enemy, forgetting all kinds of alliances we have had for more than 2500 years. They give away our land, and make all kinds of offers to all manner of enemies and wrong doers of the Dwarfs. The way GW presented the Dwarfs to me in the NC fluff was that they were too stubborn to ask for ANYONES help in looking for the crown. Now the guys at Bugmans ignore this, and gain real world alliances with ogres and elves. They ARE playing serious WAAC, and that is not how I enjoy these campaign things.
The Elves (not all, but a fair chunk) make me sick preferring to ally with Stunties than us, and the perception that we are a weak race is unjustified arrogance. We are the most innovative of all Warhammer Races, and where Teclis (and others) see the future of the entire world resting upon our shoulders.
The Ogres should be neutral. They eat anything, and love money, so it would make sense they would not have any actual alliances. But whatever.

I give up on the fluff. Tell me where to post my battles, but I'm not going to be reading much more of this, nor am I going to be reading too much of the NC fluff anymore(except our marvellous stuff of course). Here I was looking forward to something that actually made sense story wise, and would be fun. Instead GW writes a campaign around selling miniatures. Who would have thought?

Anyway, sorry for my rant.

Good Luck guys.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Sproogle on May 12, 2007, 04:21:24 PM
Wait, you mean there is a human alive that can atually get the greenskins to sit down and talk this out?
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Jerok on May 12, 2007, 04:24:42 PM
Warlord, you need to calm down.

First off, this 'Miniature Line' thing is a bit anoying, but they can't be continuously working on all armies at the same time. Nothing would get done. We'll get updates with things like 40k's Cities of Death book. You can't expect the Empire to always be at the top of the list.

Other than that, I believe GW put a good spin for the Dwarves in the official fluff. This item was the bane of one of their greatest legends, as well as the whole race. Why WOULD they want anyone to know about it or get their hands on it?

As for Bugmans, it's their choice to do things like that. We can't stop them from doing it, we just have to stick with what we're doing ourselves. Which is exactly why i'm going to support cutting off ties with the Dwarf players at Bugmans, though not the Dwarfs in fluff.

Finally, they needed to have a campaign. They've already stated that not every campaign can be world-changing, with gigantic events happening every other year. They need to do some lower-key things on the Historic scale. Just because they are releasing mini's doesn't mean thats all it's about. Are you saying the 40k Medusa V campaign was all about the new City Fight rules? Ok, so maybe it was, but it turned out to be really good. You can't down something jsut because it uses ALL features of the company (including that which is most important to the seller.)
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Sproogle on May 12, 2007, 04:46:02 PM
Besides, a business doing something that makes money for itself isn't that suprising. Now if they were charging players to register for the campaign, or making them use certain miniatures, there would be a problem. But as it stands, GW is just doing another global campaign, and a rather interesting one at that.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Dendo Star on May 12, 2007, 05:00:19 PM
I second your Bugman's order, Jerok.  The fact they ally with Vampires...utterly detestable.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: cisse on May 12, 2007, 05:01:33 PM
Yes, it's just another campaign, and probably a good one too - we'll have to wait and see for that though, I don't want another ending like SoC. But they have not thought everything through very well, one gets the feeling - at least, I do. I think all those alliances aren't going to have too much of an impact, but even so, GW managed to separate the empire from nearly every ally it had, or at least gave most of them more reasons to side with dwarfs. This is quite annoying, if only for fluff purposes.

To add to that, this campaign is AGAIN (and this is by far my biggest gripe) set in the Empire. Surprise surprise, we're defending ourselves again. When do I get to do a bit of conquering? :wink: Okay, I understand thay hav to give each race a reason to fight the others, but still, there are other ways to achieve this with a little imagination.

So yes, I can understand Warlord's feelings. I'll play in the campaign, participate, and I'll write fluff too, but that doesn't mean I can't have some reservations against GW fluff.

Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Veldemere on May 12, 2007, 05:03:20 PM
I am usually one of the biggest cynics in the world but I have to agree with Jerok on this one. So what if this does not result in the world changing and a host of new figures. Whilst I like to see the game advancing and developing sometimes its worth just having a good excuse to play and add a little fluff too.

Damn right about bugmans, so we are truly the only forum they didn't approach!

We should not talk to the greenskins about anything other than co-ordinating fluff, they are not and should never be allied to us, have we forgotten what they did to Solland!

Do we have a fluff mission statement we are putting on forums?

Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Dendo Star on May 12, 2007, 05:09:54 PM
Not yet, it's still getting hammered out.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Veldemere on May 12, 2007, 05:22:52 PM
ok, Dendo

didn't meant to hassle, I know you chaps are working hard on so many fronts.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Dendo Star on May 12, 2007, 06:30:12 PM
Heck no, you're no hassle.  :happy:

I figure we don't need to have too much done until after the 16th, when the Campaign goes online and everything official is out yadda yadda.

'Til then, stand ready men of the Empire.  This day does not bring a battle.  Sigmar grants us this time to plan, to reinforce and to make ourselves strong.  And strong we must be.

For in this war and it is only by working together that we will survive to defend the Empire in the next.

Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: cisse on May 12, 2007, 06:43:32 PM
We'e organised ourselves a bit, most negotiations are done (with more or less result), so.. The preliminary phase is over, I think. We can do a little, but most can (or indeed must) wait until after tha 16th when we have more info and can start in earnest.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Veldemere on May 12, 2007, 07:12:13 PM
Accepted, roll on the 16th. Having spent some time on other forums I feel that aside from Bugmans we are among the best prepared and for that I must thank Calvin adn the technical boys along with all the moderators (for this esp. Jerok) but also we seem to be the most inclusive forum and have the most active participants, with support like this we will succeed in the campaign.

For the Empire!
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Veldemere on May 12, 2007, 07:22:24 PM
I may have made a small breakthrough with the woodies, there is no hope of a pact but the fluff may be considered.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Dendo Star on May 12, 2007, 07:29:59 PM
Cool!  Good deal.

Bravo, V.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Sproogle on May 12, 2007, 09:28:04 PM
Pun intended, Dendo?

Aye, we should avoid talking with the greenskins, and any other evil race, as far as I'm concerned. We should probably put this to a vote, and figure out once and for all what our course of action shall be. I understand that the campaign has not even started yet, but we seem to be everywhere at the moment, and deciding on at least one course of action would do us good.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Veldemere on May 12, 2007, 10:00:22 PM
Again I know most negotiations have taken place but just for information this is the latest offering from the land grabbing cheese munchers to the woodies:

Hail the Fey of Athel Loren. I and Sir Impeteux (who should be along shortly) greet you with geniality and respect. We have journeyed from our noble lands to form a treaty with you by order of our King.

The Bretonnians wish to, henceforth, form a non-aggression pact with the Asrai of Athel Loren during the Nemesis war.
The terms of this treaty:

Clause 1. Neither the Men of Bretonnia nor the Forest of Loren (including all of its inhabitants) shall bear arms against one another for the length of the Nemesis war.

Clause 2. No noble nor peasant shall harm the Great forest of the Empire if any enter it and leave its stewardship to the Asrai.

Now, despite what you have heard of our intents, many nobles do not wish to march into the lands of the Empire and extort land from those we defend, as this is dishonourable to us. Instead, we wish to focus our attention abroad, such as fighting great threats like Settra or crusading in the border princes. As such, i wish to add another clause to the list.

Clause 3: Morghur is one of the greater threats i mentioned before. So, if either Asrai or Bretonnians spot Morghur and is monsterous ilk, we may unite and defeat this menace.

On the Nemesis Crown: We consider the crown to be a cursed artefact and we are distancing ourselves away from it. If you wish, we may discuss are stances on it.

These are terms. Again, we wish no ill will on you and do not want to each other to hamper our plans. If you wish, we may discuss closers relationship during this dark time. But, for now, let us meet as friends rather than enemies.

-Earl Marshal Vire de Drac




Pretty much what was expected but at least this one seems to be going true to fluff, so, sorry to disturb but long post to prove the predictable.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: clausewitz on May 12, 2007, 11:17:23 PM
I have been following Wissenlander's negotiations with the Round Table.  And like him I see some hope there. (And I'd also like to say Wissenlander has done a great job.)

That said it's worth noting that while we read other people's forums they also read ours.. So it might be better if we avoided using unpleasant language regarding our potential allies.  The Nemesis fluff might suggest that the Brets are attempting some kind of land grab, but most of the Round Table seem to regard this as unhonourable and would prefer something more appropriate to their own fluff.

Regarding the Bret proposal to the Asrai.  I don't see it as a problem, if anything we should see it as a good sign that they are willing to act non-agressively towards another "good" race.  The only slightly worrying part is the reference to the Asrai stewardship of the great forest, to me its bad form for a country to cede a claim to a neighbours sovereign territory.

As an aside (and I hope you'll forgive me if this is going slightly off-topic), I wonder if the sucess of the Empire during SoC that is causing some problems making allies?  Are the other races worried that we might win?
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Shifte on May 12, 2007, 11:27:01 PM
Quote
(On a personal note, I think the Vampire Counts have been given a raw deal already in this campaign. ManFred von Carstein, should be leading the undead host.)

Not true. He's dead. Confirmed at the blood keep site.

So, no that even the dwarfs are talking about fluff agreements with VC, can I FINALLY start negotiations with the dark races :icon_wink:?

Mannfreds death was criminal. It was unexplained, the only thing I can surmise is that he was killed by parenthesis. ", after the death of Mannfred,". FRankly, unless they bring Vlad back, I'm pissed off as a Vampire player.


It's also quite disgraceful that the Dwarfs are allying with everyone.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Stormbrow II on May 13, 2007, 12:13:14 AM
Mannfreds death was criminal. It was unexplained, the only thing I can surmise is that he was killed by parenthesis. ", after the death of Mannfred,". FRankly, unless they bring Vlad back, I'm pissed off as a Vampire player.

It's also quite disgraceful that the Dwarfs are allying with everyone.
Apparently the BK said that a Necrarch had taken the place of Mannfred didn't they?  That might just be their fluff though and GW might insist on him being alive and well.  Vlad - he's long dead.  Don't bother bringing him back at all.  It'd be like reintroducing the Fimir or the Squats to 40k.

You can't blame the Dwarfs for trying to get as many allies as they can, but if its only to mention each other's names in fluff then I've no problem in it. It's not like they'll be working together posting results to aid the other side.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: clausewitz on May 13, 2007, 12:44:38 AM
You can't blame the Dwarfs for trying to get as many allies as they can, but if its only to mention each other's names in fluff then I've no problem in it. It's not like they'll be working together posting results to aid the other side.

If the Dwarfs had also made an approach to us this might have been understandable.  But it seems we were over-looked in the stampede to ally with the likes of the Ogres.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Schmeag on May 13, 2007, 01:53:39 AM
Excuse me for the punctuated fluency of this post, but there was a lot to respond to.

Quote
The Woodies are torn between us and the Dwarfs.

And a few others besides.

Quote
The Brettonians and the Woodies have some sort of agreement, what it is I'm not totally sure of yet.

At the time of that post, the Bretonnians had not approached us.

Quote
What really bugs me here is some of the proposals that are made. Dwarfs and asrai uniting? Can't really see that happening, with dwarfs burning huge amounts of woods and asrai being elves (not a plus for a dwarf)

There are divisions. Some want to go with the Dwarfs, some want to ally with the High Elves, and some wish to ally with the Bretonnians.

Quote from: Stormbrow II
Quote
High Elves are split.
That's overstating it.  Most of us are on your side already but the above certainly won't endear yourselves to us.

On the other hand, that statement is perfectly applicable to the Wood Elves.

Quote
For them, a non-agression pact means this; We help them accomplish their goals, we fight enemies they're too lazy to fight themselves, and if we bother them they'll kill us. To them the non-agression pact is simply an exuse to invade our lands and do as they please, without us getting in the way.

Quote
They got a little uppity on the whole soveirgnty issue.  It's theirs, big whoop.  They can have it.  The only thing that we can probably agree upon is non-agression based upon both sides fighting evil.  That and the Hunters of Sigmar helping in the riddance of beastmen.

You have to remember that elves--especially Wood Elves--are not men. After all, they don't draw up imaginary lines to mark borders.

Quote
The dwarfs, elves and bretonnia have allied with one another, leaving us out of the deal.

I've no idea whether the Wood Elves as a whole have actually allied with anyone conclusively. As Wissenlander stated further on in the thread, you could classify the Wood Elves as a whole as 'ambivalent' because their opinions vary too much. Fluff-wise, I can see one kinband suddenly rushing in to save the Men of the Empire from nowhere, whilst a few hours later, I can see another kindband ambushing them. This is the true fickleness of the Asrai.

Quote
They won't help us.  Best we can hope for is non-agression, but they've sided with the Dwarfs for the most part, so not sure how that'll work.

Quote
Do we help the Dawi?
Yes, but cautiously, killing beasts is our main priority.    
   38%    
    38%     [ 24 ]
Call a truce.    
   12%    
    12%     [ 8 ]
No, but dont specifically target them for attacks.    
   14%    
    14%     [ 9 ]
Kill the bearded runts!    
   12%    
    12%     [ 8 ]
Aid another race. (Please specify)    
   6%    
    6%     [ 4 ]
Yes with all our might!    
   15%    
    15%     [ 10 ]

One must take into account that it was the Dwarfs that first approached us. As an individual member, I'm against allying with the Dwarfs, but I'm pretty much also against allying with every other race, save perhaps the High Elves. In other words, I'd probably stay away from all the 'good' races until one of them starts getting the upper hand (and they want the Crown).

Quote
I think the forum must be populated by 12 year olds (no offense to any here).

None taken.

Quote
What do you think, should things remain as they are now or should we have a hidden forum?

Well, if the forum is hidden only to members, all it takes is for someone to join to be able to see it. If it is hidden to a select group of members, then that excludes the rest of the members from having their say.

Quote
If we don't then they won't.  So it is sort of non agressive in a different sense.

Yes, I was trying to phrase it like that, but I temporarily lost hold of my grasp of the English language. :icon_rolleyes:

Schmeag
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Warlord on May 13, 2007, 04:58:21 AM
First off, this 'Miniature Line' thing is a bit anoying, but they can't be continuously working on all armies at the same time. Nothing would get done. We'll get updates with things like 40k's Cities of Death book. You can't expect the Empire to always be at the top of the list.
Why? You, like many people assume that things need to be done sequentially. A company the size of GW can do things parallel - hell they released the new Chaos Warriors for no particular reason, and how much did that boost sales for that particular army? If they had enough foresight, the should have seen that releasing some new 'sneak peak' miniatures for the up and coming races would generate more sales across more ranges. Instead, the sales of these 'finished' ranges will stagnate, because of the lack of attention. Anyway...
Quote
Other than that, I believe GW put a good spin for the Dwarves in the official fluff. This item was the bane of one of their greatest legends, as well as the whole race. Why WOULD they want anyone to know about it or get their hands on it?
I agree with this, and like it very much. Hence why the Dwarves from Bugmans actually asking for real-world alliances confuses me. I think the Dwarves rather than us got the raw end of the deal, because they shouldn't be allying with anyone. The Elves should dislike them, the Brets generally learn more towards Elves than Dwarves, and the Empire, well, GW pitted us against them, despite a good portion of the fluff showing us supporting them and their search for the lost miners. Don't get me wrong, I like the fluff for the Dwarves.
Quote
As for Bugmans, it's their choice to do things like that. We can't stop them from doing it, we just have to stick with what we're doing ourselves. Which is exactly why i'm going to support cutting off ties with the Dwarf players at Bugmans, though not the Dwarfs in fluff.
No, we can't stop them. What really bugs me is their attitude. Bugman himself was a founder of this forum, and for millenia Empire and Dwarves have been allies. A lot of Empire players turn to the Dwarven way (just look at Rufas), and in general we are close communities, so the fact that they would so adamantly exclude us just irritates me.
Quote
Finally, they needed to have a campaign. They've already stated that not every campaign can be world-changing, with gigantic events happening every other year. They need to do some lower-key things on the Historic scale. Just because they are releasing mini's doesn't mean thats all it's about. Are you saying the 40k Medusa V campaign was all about the new City Fight rules? Ok, so maybe it was, but it turned out to be really good. You can't down something jsut because it uses ALL features of the company (including that which is most important to the seller.)
Of course they need to have a campaign. I am not arguing that. I just wish that they truely thought about who the major players were. And also, I agree that I am sick of GW getting the Empire ravaged. We just had the friggin SoC how many years ago plow through us? What worries me, is the potential for change in fluff because of these Campaigns. If there is low potential, then sure, go for it everyone. But if the fluff that is written affects global fluff, then I will not be happy. THAT is what worries me about this campaign.

Anyway, I am calm... just a little bitter  :mellow:

Regardless, I don't want to take this OT anymore.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Schmeag on May 13, 2007, 07:02:12 AM
Also, what exactly do fluff alliances offer? I've been going through the backlog of posts here and the general consensus is that even with fluff alliances, there would still be some kind of 'support' involved. In what sense do you mean this? Writing about the Empire winning?
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Shifte on May 13, 2007, 12:31:00 PM
Mannfreds death was criminal. It was unexplained, the only thing I can surmise is that he was killed by parenthesis. ", after the death of Mannfred,". FRankly, unless they bring Vlad back, I'm pissed off as a Vampire player.

Apparently the BK said that a Necrarch had taken the place of Mannfred didn't they?  That might just be their fluff though and GW might insist on him being alive and well.  Vlad - he's long dead.  Don't bother bringing him back at all.  It'd be like reintroducing the Fimir or the Squats to 40k.

No. The fluff says Mannfred is dead. GW siad he was dead- not some website.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Stormbrow II on May 13, 2007, 04:54:19 PM
Mannfreds death was criminal. It was unexplained, the only thing I can surmise is that he was killed by parenthesis. ", after the death of Mannfred,". FRankly, unless they bring Vlad back, I'm pissed off as a Vampire player.

Apparently the BK said that a Necrarch had taken the place of Mannfred didn't they?  That might just be their fluff though and GW might insist on him being alive and well.  Vlad - he's long dead.  Don't bother bringing him back at all.  It'd be like reintroducing the Fimir or the Squats to 40k.

No. The fluff says Mannfred is dead. GW siad he was dead- not some website.
Didn't they write about him returning at the end of the Drizzle?  Or was that some vampire tool impersonating him that ran away after Volkmar went "Boo"?

Also, what exactly do fluff alliances offer? I've been going through the backlog of posts here and the general consensus is that even with fluff alliances, there would still be some kind of 'support' involved. In what sense do you mean this? Writing about the Empire winning?
Fluff alliances are just there so that players mention each other in their stories if they're fighting in the same location in the hopes that GW pay attention to them e.g. Mr. Orc and Mr. Dwarf are both in Tor Thana and the Orc player from Belgium wins against his buddy while the Dwarf player from Norway loses.  Their friends have accounts but couldn't be bothered to post fluff so the lads agree to mention Mr. Orc's character beating the Dwarf character when they submit their fluff as they've fought in the same location.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Veldemere on May 13, 2007, 07:15:27 PM
Ahh Schmeag

Thankyou for your post it is always beneficial to see things from the other side.I note your poll results with particular interest, notwithstanding what you say about your personal feelings only 26% of your froum said no to a dwarven truce of some form, ahhh how easily 3 millenia are forgotten.I have championed a treaty with the Wood Elves but your notion to try and come out of this campaign with some development has led you to act in a way almost as impossible as the Dwarves approaching the greenskins.

Please offer us something new that would lead us to believe you respect more a nation that has allowed your race to live within our borders without any form of molestation rather than a race with whom you heve held a 3000 year old war who have proven to have no respect for woodlands.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Shifte on May 13, 2007, 09:01:36 PM

Didn't they write about him returning at the end of the Drizzle?  Or was that some vampire tool impersonating him that ran away after Volkmar went "Boo"?


Yes. Then in WD the other month with the NC booklet they said:


",after the death of Mannfred Von Carsten,".

This campaign is set after The Drizzle, and Mannfred left Middenheim with the biggest army of Wights ever seen. (He raised all of Archaons horse, and the dead Defenders). So- it made Von Carstein players think "Bad ass! We have power in fluff again!" Then, Games worjkshop slaughtered Mannfred mercilessly in parenthesis.  :( No explanatio, no cool story- He is just dead. Which also goes against the Liber Nec-something and 'Nights Dark Masters'. Which talks about him preparing to attacj the Empire. Just seems to have spoiled all of the build up of Von Carsteins lately..
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Stormbrow II on May 13, 2007, 09:52:19 PM
Yes. Then in WD the other month with the NC booklet they said:
",after the death of Mannfred Von Carsten,".
This campaign is set after The Drizzle, and Mannfred left Middenheim with the biggest army of Wights ever seen. (He raised all of Archaons horse, and the dead Defenders). So- it made Von Carstein players think "Bad ass! We have power in fluff again!" Then, Games worjkshop slaughtered Mannfred mercilessly in parenthesis.  :( No explanatio, no cool story- He is just dead. Which also goes against the Liber Nec-something and 'Nights Dark Masters'. Which talks about him preparing to attacj the Empire. Just seems to have spoiled all of the build up of Von Carsteins lately..
That's pretty stupid.  Surely, you would think,  they'd have given some consideration to all the Von Carstein Vamps with huge man-crushes on Mannfred wouldn't you?  So he disappeared without trace - a bit like their share's value a few days ago so.  Someone must have tried to create parallels somewhere.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: FVC on May 14, 2007, 05:11:58 AM
Technically, Mannfred was dead during his appearance in the SoC. He's a vampire; he's been dead for centuries. He just hasn't stopped moving yet. Is it possible that the WD booklet was referring to his original death, when he was killed and made into a vampire by his sire (I believe it's Vlad, but could be wrong there)?

Anyway, enough pedantics. I have the fortune or misfortune as the case may be to speak to you on behalf of the Round Table of Bretonnia. As you may know, we have been discussing the possibility of alliance or non-aggression pacts with the Empire following the proposals made to us by wissenlander (and full honour to wissenlander for his patience and eloquence).

I notice that there is some antipathy towards surrendering land to us. I assure you, we do not intend to cast aside our recent alliance with the Empire against Archaon, and have the utmost respect for the sovereignty of your land. The Errantry recently declared by his royal majesty King Louen Leoncoeur should not be looked upon as an act of aggression or betrayal. The highest sense of chivalry motivated his action, and I have no doubt that all Bretonnian knights upon your territory will hold themselves to a similar standard.

So, what is it that we want? To be blunt, land is a concern of ours. We do not intend to steal land from you, though. Rather, as wissenlander has proposed in messages to us, we hope that Bretonnian nobles who distinguish themselves in the Empire may, having sworn loyalty to all relevant lords in the Empire, may be allowed to administer territories under threat (especially from the vile beastmen, orcs, and goblins that are both our enemies). It is a simple contract, whereby Bretonnian nobles render aid to communities in need, and swear loyalty to the local Elector Count, in exchange for which they are granted a fief. In all respects, the Bretonnian noble serves as any other noble of the Empire, save for their additional loyalty to the King of Bretonnia. Would it not be preferable to see a village ruled justly by such a noble than to see that village destroyed and pillaged? In a simple cost-benefit analysis, this arrangement is entirely profitable to the Empire, and to us as well.

In battles within the Empire, it is of course understood that Bretonnian forces shall render all reasonable aid to Empire soldiery in conflict against the forces of evil (that is to say, skaven, orcs and goblins, Dark Elves, beastmen, Hordes of Chaos, Vampire Counts, and Tomb Kings), and hopefully we may coordinate our efforts against such foes. However, we cannot take up arms against any good army (that is, dwarfs, High Elves, Wood Elves, and lizardmen) and maintain neutrality in any conflict between your forces and them. We hope that any such conflict may be swiftly resolved with the minimum of bloodshed.

Finally, the possibility of expansion into the Wasteland, pushing back the borders of the Marches of Couronne, is an idea that has popularity with many Bretonnian nobles. Such a move would surely draw the ire of the free city of Marienburg, however. We request that the Empire remain neutral in any conflict in that region - after all, Marienburg is hardly a friend to the Empire.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Schmeag on May 14, 2007, 09:59:02 AM
Indeed, Veldemere, but I do not actually come as a negotiator as opposed to just an individual that feels a little sorry that Men got completely shut down. Obviously, with the prevailing notion that the Asrai are individualistic, I can't really come as much else. I have come to believe--but may be wrong--that the reason for much Dwarfen support, but not much support for Men is this:

1. The Dwarfs have had a headstart in relations, so they may have gained more ground without any opposing petition. Votes can't be retracted, and at the beginning, I believe that the Dwarfs had a stronger position than the Men because of this headstart.
2. The fluff GW have set out. If you do not wish to follow this fluff, then it should have been stated quite blatantly in the opening talks.
3. I felt that the concerns regarding the Crown were inadequately addressed to placate the Wood Elves' paranoia of Men using the Crown against the Asrai and any other sentient beings. This could have been rectified by saying that Karl Franz will only 'test' the Crown in the strong presence of other races on neutral soil; ie in the presence of a large contingent of Lizardmen, Asur, Dwarfs...etc. I feel that the others have a point when they say that they cannot trust the hearts of Men. After all, they are the most affected by Chaos. Instead of skirting the matter, there should have been some compromises made.
4. The mild antagonism between the Barony of Nordland and the Laurelorn forest. There have been pressures on the Baron to drive these Wood Elves out for good. Of course, those of Athel Loren would probably be quite protective of the Laurelornim due to ancient ties. Also, there were pacts in the past between those of the Laurelorn and the Barony of Nordland, but from what I know, I think one of the Barons reneged that pact. Can't be sure though, but I think I've read it somewhere.
5. The Dwarfs are actually looking to destroy it and seem to have some kind of capability to do so, whereas the Men don't.
6. Most of the pacts being signed with the Dwarfs are more like: "Okay, we'll do it, but make one step out of line and scattered hostilities will resume."

I will state that I disagree with some of what is being said. For example, I will not do as others have said and say that I will be as hostile as to warn before shooting, because there are bigger fish out there to fry. If there's a Beastman army out there, or one of the abominable Druchii, then of course it'll be them that get attacked. Men are a good barrier between the Northern Wastes and Athel Loren, and it would probably be best to keep up some form of relations. Besides, there'll be plenty of others running rampant in there, and as much pride that the Wood Elves may have, they will not be able to keep them all out anyway. So yes, I am and was always up for at least a low preference in fighting Men. The same went for the other races such as Dwarfs, High Elves and Lizardmen. I also believe that there have not been enough reasons given to support the Dwarfs solely, and it seems odd that a few of the more influential members should be doing so. Also, I know that at least one of them (not an influential member) can be discounted--Narmo Eressea--because he's not actually fighting for Wood Elf virtues. I'm also tempted to think that the ten who voted for "With All Our Might!" all came from multiple accounts created by him, but that is just wishful thinking.

However, there are some points that I agree with. Fluff-wise, Men can be considered to be susceptible to the wiles of Chaos. Some members would also agree with me when I state that the Wood Elves should take a relatively isolationist stance in the Nemesis Crown campaign, mainly because that's how I've always viewed them (one of the pieces of fluff in the Army Book is that they resent everyone). I've tried to act as an advocate for reserved balance, slanted (of course) towards isolation, but not outright isolation where it's kill on sight (that would just be inviting outright hostilities, which wouldn't be manageable). Also, I try to keep it consistent. And so far, I think it is. Also, I think that from an isolationist policy, this will not restrict players too much from their games--the point is, after all, to have fun. Dwarfs may be making alliances left, right and centre, but they'll rue their sudden integration onto the international stage when their players have trouble finding opponents.

In the end, you must remember, however, that Wood Elves will not act in unity. There will be always some that oppose you, as there will be at least some that support you. I certainly cannot presume to speak for the Wood Elves, simply because neither do I have the authority nor any substantial backing to do so.

Schmeag
Member
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: wissenlander on May 14, 2007, 12:35:21 PM
Thank you to the ambassadors that have shown up to our forum.

Schmeag, I thank you for your explanation of the situation.  It helps to mend some wounds that may have been opened from negotiations. 

FVC, it is good to see you after all of the discussions over at the Round Table.  I believe that we will be able to come to terms shortly, as I agree that the terms presented are mutually beneficial. 

I'll resume my post and report any findings.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Veldemere on May 14, 2007, 01:32:10 PM
Schmeag

Thankyou for your well thought out post. I has certainly given me a better insight into your forum and members, sadly it seems to be a constant fight on all forums to keep fools from posting.

Just to pick up on a couple of points;

1. True, point taken I think we were all surprised by how quickly they got themselves organised.

2. Fluff wise. I am very keen to keep up with GW fluff and in no way intend to subvert the campaign, but the way I read it in the NC booklet it did not state anywhere I could find that the WE know anything about the crown, merely that they had heard of hte beastmen gaining in power, the logical ally in preventing this would be armies that traditionally fight the beasts (men) rathe than Dwarves who are rather more limited when fighting in woods.

3. Again I saw nothing that says you are at all concerned with the crown per se, moreso the destruction of the forest defilers.

4. All the more reason for greater ties surely?

5. It was made clear that we would only take a deciscion once we knew more about it. To suggest that it is evil one has to bear in mind that it was the Dwarves who made it!

6. I see now that a pact would be unsustainable with your fragmented leadership structure, we are working on a fluff pact to try and ensure that at the end of this campaign the result could potentially benefit players and not just be forgotten. If GW see a larger groundswell of players saying how they would like the game to go there is more of a chance of this happening (unlikely I know but worth a punt).

Thanks.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Demonslayer on May 14, 2007, 02:12:51 PM
1. Meh. They just got lucky the ogres approached them first.
2. In the first few days, there was the 'hey-I-didn't-know-a-campaign-was-coming'-period, in which we were sill thinking WHAT we were going to do in the first place. After that, I don't think we could've been clearer.
3.
Quote
After all, they are the most affected by Chaos.
AND the most opposed against it (Sigmar,anyone?).
4. The Barony of Nordland does NOT encompass the entire Empire, though.
5.
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The Dwarfs are actually looking to destroy it and seem to have some kind of capability to do so
Clearly displayed by the fact that every dwarf who came too close to the trinket went insane.
6.
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"Okay, we'll do it, but make one step out of line and scattered hostilities will resume."
Best offer we received to date, from almost EVERY race. And let's not forget the dwarves are invading us themselves. This is our land, we just sat here minding our own business when all of the sudden our former friends walked in shouting "get out of my way or get killed!" and stuff.


Quote
Fluff-wise, Men can be considered to be susceptible to the wiles of Chaos.


Druchii/ Dawi Zhar, anyone?
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Jerok on May 15, 2007, 01:35:40 AM
Alright, concerning the Round Table alliance...

While fluffwise doing things like having your Knights swear loyalty to the Elector Counts would work very well, how to encompass this and bring it in reports to GW would be very hard. While  ican send all the messages I want to the Narrators, i'd need to show I have support.

It would, though, be easier just to state "Rumors tell that we of the Empire are being aided by the Brettonians in exchange for the regions around Marienburg." And for the Bretts, "The King has decided to aide the Empire in exchange for the regions around Marienburg." If we stuck to that it would work out very well.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Dendo Star on May 15, 2007, 02:42:04 AM
Awesome.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: farmer on May 15, 2007, 06:35:13 AM
Do you think maybe GW might be lining up giving the Brettonians some sort of control of Averland. At the moment there is no Elector Count (Marius Leitdorf we will never forget you :icon_cry:). They had their chance to change things with the release of the NEB but did nothing leaving the province leaderless. Maybe they know something we don't  :icon_question:

As a Averlander myself I wouldn't mind as long as the Duke or Barron ruled under Empire law and was willing to die for Karl Franz and the Empire. How cool would it be if you could have Brettonian Knights as a core choice :icon_cool:
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Schmeag on May 15, 2007, 09:45:10 AM
Veldemere, I'm glad to see that you aren't so offended by those on the forums, but I guess I just have to say that the deadly serious approach to the campaign which seems to exist on this board does not exist on Asrai.Org, where it's a bit more lively and fluffed-up. I only really found it odd that there should be a lot of support for the Dwarfs and sought to rationalise this (with my own thoughts) in the last post I made.

Demonslayer, I'm not necessarily espousing my own views of how the Wood Elves should act in the campaign. A lot of this stuff are the perceived views of others on the Wood Elf forum. Again, as I was saying to Veldemere, I was trying to put a reason as to why there seemed to be more support for the Dwarfs. Probably the rest of my responses in this thread will be dedicated to that (also for my benefit too).

Quote
but the way I read it in the NC booklet it did not state anywhere I could find that the WE know anything about the crown, merely that they had heard of hte beastmen gaining in power, the logical ally in preventing this would be armies that traditionally fight the beasts (men) rathe than Dwarves who are rather more limited when fighting in woods.

However, with all the talk of the Nemesis Crown, they couldn't just say 'What's this?' In other words, because everyone kept on mentioning the Nemesis Crown, it would have been somewhat odd had they continued to remain in the dark. For example, when the Dwarfs mentioned that the Nemesis Crown was evil, I said, "Well that's news." I couldn't really continue to be ignorant after that.

Quote
Again I saw nothing that says you are at all concerned with the crown per se, moreso the destruction of the forest defilers.

And they were not (at least, I think, initially). However, with all this talk about alliances and mentions of the Nemesis Crown, it would get on their suspicions as something that could potentially disrupt the Wood Elven way of life (anything that results in the influx of every playable Warhammer race would certainly get their attention). Again, the Wood Elves probably do not want the Crown, but something that could have a potential to affect their woods--in fact, something of so much interest that everyone would scour a forest which is not too far off to the east--would probably be of concern to them.

Quote
All the more reason for greater ties surely?

Quote
The Barony of Nordland does NOT encompass the entire Empire, though.

Wood Elves are a distrustful bunch, as you may have garnered. Also, (still from what I recall) the Empire have been pushing the Barony of Nordland to drive the Wood Elves there out for good. Because of the isolation of the Wood Elves, the history of conflict between the Barony of Nordland and the Laurelornim--one of the few major relationships between the two races (considering that the Wood Elves are quite isolated)--may at times be viewed by others as symbolic of the relationship between Wood Elves and Men themselves. It may be unfair, but that's the way it would seem to be.

Quote
Clearly displayed by the fact that every dwarf who came too close to the trinket went insane.

I added in the qualification for a reason, you know. ;)

Quote
Best offer we received to date, from almost EVERY race. And let's not forget the dwarves are invading us themselves. This is our land, we just sat here minding our own business when all of the sudden our former friends walked in shouting "get out of my way or get killed!" and stuff.

Well, if you were willing to give them the Crown, I'm sure they'd relent. ;)

Quote
Druchii/ Dawi Zhar, anyone?

I do not understand your point, here. The Wood Elves have not to my knowledge even considered any form of relations with the Druchii, and no one has ever mentioned the Chaos Dwarfs at all in regards to the Nemesis Campaign.

Quote
I see now that a pact would be unsustainable with your fragmented leadership structure, we are working on a fluff pact to try and ensure that at the end of this campaign the result could potentially benefit players and not just be forgotten. If GW see a larger groundswell of players saying how they would like the game to go there is more of a chance of this happening (unlikely I know but worth a punt).

I look forward to writing too. :)

Schmeag
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: FVC on May 15, 2007, 09:54:33 AM
While fluffwise doing things like having your Knights swear loyalty to the Elector Counts would work very well, how to encompass this and bring it in reports to GW would be very hard. While  ican send all the messages I want to the Narrators, i'd need to show I have support.

True enough. In any case, I would suggest it be emphasised that Bretonnia and the Empire are not in any direct conflict. Whether this is done through explicitly stated dual allegiance or some other matter, it does not matter so much as long as the idea is communicated; that idea being, of course, that Bretonnian knights are not stealing land in the Empire. That is one thing I believe all the Round Table would like to emphasise. We are not petty thieves.

Quote
It would, though, be easier just to state "Rumors tell that we of the Empire are being aided by the Brettonians in exchange for the regions around Marienburg." And for the Bretts, "The King has decided to aide the Empire in exchange for the regions around Marienburg." If we stuck to that it would work out very well.

Again, sounds fair enough. Am I take it from this that you're perfectly amenable to Bretonnian expansion near Marienburg?

Quote from: farmer
Do you think maybe GW might be lining up giving the Brettonians some sort of control of Averland. At the moment there is no Elector Count (Marius Leitdorf we will never forget you ). They had their chance to change things with the release of the NEB but did nothing leaving the province leaderless. Maybe they know something we don't

I don't believe so. For one thing, Averland is on the very other side of the Empire to Bretonnia, and it would extremely difficult to administer. The heavy mercenary presence in Averland would be distasteful to Bretonnian lords and cultural distrust between Bretonnian nobles and rural Averlanders would be a major stumbling block. Not going to happen, I'm afraid.

Quote
As a Averlander myself I wouldn't mind as long as the Duke or Barron ruled under Empire law and was willing to die for Karl Franz and the Empire.

But not, of course, in combat against Bretonnia. :wink:

Quote
How cool would it be if you could have Brettonian Knights as a core choice

How cool it would be if we could have half-decent infantry as a core choice... :happy:
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Veldemere on May 15, 2007, 10:45:51 AM
I know the ministry is winding up but just a few things I have found from trawling. The Dwarves have approached the VC on 2 different forums and are still persueing. The TK approached them but they knocked them back they are making a fluff pact. The Brets have gone to the Woodies.

Finally the VC are talking about trying to register all of them in hte same region to increase their impact, whilst this could be a pain I suspect it would backfire on them as their reports were all from Australia (say) but the corresponding bat rep was from UK or US etc.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: wissenlander on May 15, 2007, 11:56:01 AM
Not sure if you're allowed to take an entire forum and have them post in one section.  Sounds a bit odd to me.

Schmeag, he was talking about the fact that elves and dwarfs also have 'dark' brethren, not just men.  Nothing to do with alliance offers and such.

And after the corner we were backed into, to promise the crown completely would've put us in a bind.  We would've been completely contradicting what hand we were given.  A Council of the Wise (LotR I know) was the best call for us and no one wanted it because of our 'tainted ways.'  I won't get in the discussion again because I've discussed in numerous times elsewhere, but you get my point. :wink:
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Warlord on May 15, 2007, 01:08:22 PM
Quote
How cool would it be if you could have Brettonian Knights as a core choice

How cool it would be if we could have half-decent infantry as a core choice... :happy:
Its good to see that we both would find this relationship mutually beneficial  :biggriin:
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Jerok on May 15, 2007, 09:53:19 PM
Again, sounds fair enough. Am I take it from this that you're perfectly amenable to Bretonnian expansion near Marienburg?

You are perfectly right.

Quote
The heavy mercenary presence in Averland would be distasteful to Bretonnian lords

And Marienburg does't have Mercs? Hah! They are as close as it comes to Mercenaries Inc.

Anyways, about this 'everyone in one region' approach.

First off, if they did that, as has already been pointed out, they would constantly be playing people from other regions, and therefore be found out. They would also not be able to formaly participate in region-events, which would really suck for them.

Finally, if they actually did it, I would rat them out  :biggriin: Hey, that's how I roll. If you do something dumb, i'll lash out.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Tostig on May 15, 2007, 10:14:36 PM
On the subject of Mercenaries, might I point you in the direction of the alliance/Entente Lucrial between the Dwarfs and the Ogres, not to mention the mercurial promises they've been making to everyone, good or evil?

Good to see that honour and nobility are high concerns for those of the old oaths.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Wyzer1 on May 15, 2007, 10:21:54 PM
I am starting to wonder the mental state of the dwarfs over there... whether they are, how do we say, tainted?
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: CaptScott on May 17, 2007, 07:59:42 AM
Have we sent any official communication to all other races/sites yet?  If not I believe the following points should be worked into one and sent post-haste.

1. First and foremost we have to remind all foreign races and kingdoms that this is OUR territory, and such;

i) All enemies of the Empire will be destroyed on sight.

ii) All foreign parties with whom we have good relations will be given the option of retreat or destruction.

iii) Allied parties will have restricted access to Empire lands, and will at all times be subject to the rule of our most glorious Emperor Karl Franz.

Glory to the Empire!
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Schmeag on May 17, 2007, 11:46:08 AM
Quote
Have we sent any official communication to all other races/sites yet?  If not I believe the following points should be worked into one and sent post-haste.

I think they've just about finished. ;)

Quote
Schmeag, he was talking about the fact that elves and dwarfs also have 'dark' brethren, not just men.  Nothing to do with alliance offers and such.

Ah, the thing about Druchii, Asur and Asrai is that they are in fact near-immune to corruption. It is just the curse of Aenarion that makes them act the way they do--they've adapted differently.  I have absolutely no idea about the Dawi and the Dawi Zharr, but my statement about Men being susceptible to corruption still stands.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: wissenlander on May 17, 2007, 12:00:44 PM
Oh yes, Aenarion.  The most tragic Elf figure. 

There's no doubt that men are susceptable to corruption.  I just think everyone should remember who the first line of defense has been the last couple thousand years.  And yes, I know that the Elves have always been there as the first line of defense, but let's be honest.  When the hordes of chaos come sweeping from the north where do they hit first?  Kislev.  Kislev an ally of the Empire, both human nations.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Schmeag on May 17, 2007, 12:46:11 PM
Yes, that is why I (can't speak for-- you get the point ;) ) am going to give preference to killing 'evil' races as opposed to Men. After a poll on Asrai.Org that I think you've seen, many would--oddly enough--seem to agree with me. I've already made all the points in favour of my view of the how the Asrai should work, and most of what has already been said here in regards to the relationship between Men and the Asrai have been covered. Outside fluff terms though, I don't think pacts are going to do much. The best we can do is probably include it in the fluff that we write.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: wissenlander on May 17, 2007, 01:10:25 PM
Understood.  Complicated, this campaign is (nice Yoda skeak, eh?).  Old fluff is conflicting with new fluff and it's got many reeling.  I think we can write supporting fluff somewhere down the line of some Wood Elf kindred war bands aiding a convoy in the woods being attacked by beastmen.  Twists and turns through out this whole campaign.  I can see it coming.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Dendo Star on May 17, 2007, 01:45:31 PM
Understood.  Complicated, this campaign is (nice Yoda skeak, eh?).  Old fluff is conflicting with new fluff and it's got many reeling.  I think we can write supporting fluff somewhere down the line of some Wood Elf kindred war bands aiding a convoy in the woods being attacked by beastmen.  Twists and turns through out this whole campaign.  I can see it coming.

Rockin'.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: tyurtddr on May 18, 2007, 12:19:00 AM
here is my 10 cents on allies
the WE in my opinion are to few in number to help
the HE and dwarfs would be good fluff alliances

and about handing over marienburg to the brets, i wouldnt want to fluff wise. the river reik goes through there and it is the main way our fleet gets to the ocean, so they could blokade our entire fleet......

p.s. im a bretonnian player as well (please dont kill me) :ph34r:
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: FVC on May 18, 2007, 01:30:14 AM
To clarify, we are not aiming to conquer the city of Marienburg itself, merely to push back the border of the Marches of Couronne. For your reference, here's the GW Old World map, upon which I have marked the area we are interested in. The blue line marks the current border between Bretonnia and the Wasteland. The red area is where we would like to move it to.

(http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/5086/oldworldmapuw5.jpg)

You will, of course, notice that the red expansion does not impinge upon Imperial territory at all, nor does it involve taking the city of Marienburg. Marienburg would surely be very unhappy with this, but the border to the Marches has been contested for centuries.

The series of purple dots in Reikland indicate that we would, with your kind permission, like to expand Bretonnia's influence in that region by allowing our nobles to swear allegiance to Imperial lords as well, to better aid and protect the people of the Empire.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Dendo Star on May 18, 2007, 02:41:52 AM
Now, with all due respect, we are not allowing any expansion into the land where we already live.

We will assist you good men in securing any territory about The Wasteland, The Badlands or in the Southlands that is not already claimed by Araby however.  This includes the Land Of The Dead.  Any General Of The Empire would lend thier men to a campaign to assist in establishing Dukedoms in The Land Of The Dead without hesitation.  However, no attempts shall be made nor assisted by us to claim Jungles inhabited by the Lizard-folk who dwell within. 

The Border Princes are another matter all together.  With so many established settlements and claims to territory there, We would propose any talks held on this subject be regarded as a completely separate manner.  However, should  Noble Bretonnia seek to secure lands in the Border Princes, well then there is simply no conflict of interest whatsoever.  All The Emperor asks is that partition of the Border Princes not be considered until after this war has passed, Sigmar and Lady willing we are victorious.  May the Great Creator of us all see fit to have it so.



May our two great nations together stem this tide of Evil,

Simon "Donnerhertz" Rodimutz, Sub-Commander Of Helstrom's 4th, humble soldier of the Emperor Karl-Franz




 
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Veldemere on May 18, 2007, 08:48:24 AM
On a note of caution whilst I think it would be beneficial for men to work together, Marienberg is not ous to give away anyway.

Bear in mind how incensed we were when the Dwarves were promising tracts of the Empire to anyone who would talk to them, we should not do the same thing.

I have no interest in any of the lands outside the Empire and that is of interest only to the Bretonnians, but beware with touching land to the south of the Empire for Solland will one day be re-established!
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: wissenlander on May 18, 2007, 11:28:39 AM
Yeah, well fellas, something's got to give.  I believe that what the Bretonnians ask is paltry compared to what it could've been.  Maybe the location of territories in the Empire are up for debate but let's be honest with ourselves.  The one hinge factor for this treaty (GW has set it up this way unfortunately) is land.  If we say we won't give them any Imperial land or  help them or support them in a campaign against Marienburg, that leaves us only with the Badlands/Border Princes.  I couldn't see anyone want to move into the Wastelands, for it's the Wastelands.

Instead of lands in the Reikland, what about areas that Bretonnians have helped us 'reclaim' in the Great Forest?

While I agree with the fact we shouldn't be 'giving' lands away when it doesn't belong to us there are a few key issues in this matter.  Marienburg isn't really a playable faction.  You can argue that DoW are or even some Empire armies, but it's not really.  They're on a lower rung then Kislev in that regard.  Another issue is that the area has been contested for some time and leaves some doubt as to who should actually own the lands.

Relations with Marienburg aren't the greatest anyways, at least I don't think.  The Elector of Nordland will be put to the sword if he goes near the place.

So I do understand the merits and honor of the situation, but we're going to have to find a compromise or we're going to stop a potential alliance dead in its tracks.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: FVC on May 18, 2007, 12:06:30 PM
Regarding Marienburg, we are not asking you to give the city to us. It is not part of the Empire and you have no jurisdiction there. All we ask is that you do not oppose our expansion in that area. As that expansion would be at the expense of a long-time rival of yours, I hope it's not too much to ask. :wink:

As for land in the Empire, the deal we are proposing is really quite simple. You agree that any Imperial citizens who choose, of their own free will, to swear allegiance to Bretonnian nobles, may do so. (Naturally, said nobles will also swear allegiance to all relevant Imperial lords.) In exchange, we aid you militarily in your conflicts.

(Though it should be noted that such military aid, at present, would be restricted entirely to battles against 'evil' forces, such as orcs, goblins, beastmen, skaven, Chaos, Dark Elves, and so forth. The debate over whether or not we could aid you against dwarfs or other such races is raging.)

Quote from: wissenlander
Instead of lands in the Reikland, what about areas that Bretonnians have helped us 'reclaim' in the Great Forest?

I believe we wound accept that. The idea was never to march in and take prosperous, peaceful villages of the Empire, but to help protect villages from danger, and in return receive the feudal due.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: wissenlander on May 18, 2007, 12:12:14 PM
I personally see this as acceptable.  We won't interfere with Bretonnian actions against Marienburg and they can have lands that they themselves helped defend, while swearing loyalty to the Elector.

I don't think it will be terribly hard to incorporate into fluff. 
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Dendo Star on May 18, 2007, 01:17:25 PM
You are correct Wiss.  We must compromise.  I agree to terms presented by The Round Table regarding the present Knight's Errant War.

However, a situation has arisen that throws all this to the wayside.  Settra lands at Marienburg.

Bretonnia!  We must divert all our forces available to combat this unHoly invasion!  By call of The Emperor himself we ask for all Knights Of Bretonnia to assist in defense of the Wasteland!  For If Settra attacks now, soon the Chaos Elves will attack and then the Norse Raiders and Chaos forces will grow bold...

Please!  Noble Knights Of Bretonnia!  May we stop all talk of new lands until these threats from the Great Ocean are destroyed!  Your Knights Errant are already in the east of The Empire.  Please, divert those forces to the sea!  Without your support Marienburg may fall to Dark powers...

For who are we to refuse a challenge from such forces of Evil?  Are not Sigmar and The Lady both enraged by such attacks?  For if we do not act quickly there may be no Knights to become Dukes and no Empire left to defend.  Are we so blinded by glory and pride we fail to see what must be done?!

We must stand united!  Hammer to Lance!  This is our finest hour!
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Veldemere on May 18, 2007, 02:12:14 PM
Whilst I fully support the Bretonnians and wish our relations could be closer the one thing that stays my hand is GW. I trust and thank those who are participating on the Round Table and I am sure that their intention is not to take imperial land and are merely doing the best with the hand they have been given. If the Bretonninans do well in the campaign we will inevitably lose lands which will lead to war possibly what GW want but not what I want.

Because of that I feel unable to offer assistance to the Brets but where possible I will fluff support the Round Tables plans.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: FVC on May 18, 2007, 02:38:58 PM
Regrettably, it may end that way. Our hope is that by mentioning the Marches of Couronne and expansion near Marienburg, GW may take notice and move the 'new land' idea to there.

To clarify, Dendo Star, what is being discussed on the Round Table is not an arrangement which allows Bretonnia, as a sovereign entity, to rule parts of the Empire. Rather, it is the idea of a dual fief, which was quite common in medieval Europe. A Bretonnian (ethnically speaking only) baron who extends protection over a village in the Empire would not be a representative of the Bretonnian nation snatching land.
(Incidentally, from a strict legal point of view, Bretonnia does not exist. There is no such thing as 'the Bretonnian nation' beyond all people who ultimately owe feudal loyalty to the King. It's a discussion I can't go into here, but mildly relevant.)
Rather, the example baron would be an independent lord who happens to own land in two different countries. Regarding his land in Bretonnia, he would owe loyalty to the King and enforce the King's laws. Regarding his land in the Empire, he would owe loyalty to the Emperor and serve him. In medieval law, one man can have two masters - in fact, it was considered quite commonplace.

Still, GW may not see it that way. If you must turn down an alliance on those grounds (and, strictly speaking, I'm not offering you one. The matter is still unclear, though we certainly want a non-aggression pact at the least.), then I'll understand. Nevertheless, non-aggression and a 'fluff alliance' remain possible, I hope?
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: wissenlander on May 18, 2007, 02:46:43 PM
Well, I think we can all agree to the last two parts (at least I hope as well).

I see your point FVC, but as others have mentioned, GW may not see it that way.  Unfortunately, that has been a huge driving factor in this campaign thus far, as you well know.

As a healthy alternative to the land grab issue, which has been muted since the campaign site opened up, I still think that what FVC proposed works within the guidelines that GW has presented.

We tried the same thing with the Dwarfs talking about a Council of the Wise.  That way we could say that, but not propose something we couldn't promise on.  At the same time it seemed something logical within the guidelines.

The Bretonnians at the Round Table don't really want to go for a land grab, I can attest to that.  I've seen the discussions myself and even taken part in them.  What they are trying to do is work within the fluff that is presented and stretch it in a way that would be pleasing to both of our forums and GW.  It's a hard feat, but out of everything that has been presented thus far by every faction, I believe this to be the most sound blending of the three.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Dendo Star on May 18, 2007, 02:47:16 PM
Regrettably, it may end that way. Our hope is that by mentioning the Marches of Couronne and expansion near Marienburg, GW may take notice and move the 'new land' idea to there.

To clarify, Dendo Star, what is being discussed on the Round Table is not an arrangement which allows Bretonnia, as a sovereign entity, to rule parts of the Empire. Rather, it is the idea of a dual fief, which was quite common in medieval Europe. A Bretonnian (ethnically speaking only) baron who extends protection over a village in the Empire would not be a representative of the Bretonnian nation snatching land.
(Incidentally, from a strict legal point of view, Bretonnia does not exist. There is no such thing as 'the Bretonnian nation' beyond all people who ultimately owe feudal loyalty to the King. It's a discussion I can't go into here, but mildly relevant.)
Rather, the example baron would be an independent lord who happens to own land in two different countries. Regarding his land in Bretonnia, he would owe loyalty to the King and enforce the King's laws. Regarding his land in the Empire, he would owe loyalty to the Emperor and serve him. In medieval law, one man can have two masters - in fact, it was considered quite commonplace.

Still, GW may not see it that way. If you must turn down an alliance on those grounds (and, strictly speaking, I'm not offering you one. The matter is still unclear, though we certainly want a non-aggression pact at the least.), then I'll understand. Nevertheless, non-aggression and a 'fluff alliance' remain possible, I hope?

I have changed my stance ((my post )), please, show my letter to The Round Table.  If we fail to act soon all is lost.

Politics, expansion, titles are things that must be dealt with when we have time.  Now we do not.  Does not a Knight Errant seek glory on the battlefield before glory in Title?  Does not The Lady call for Evil's destruction?

And what of the people of Marienburg?  What of their defense?

What we speak of is petty squabbles.  We must defend The Old World!
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Veldemere on May 18, 2007, 02:51:51 PM
FVC thanks to both you and Wiss for all the effort you have put in. I would agree to a fluff alliance and a limited non-agression as much as I can. If GW change their stance at any point in this campaign and notice the logic both of you are talking then I, for one, would willingly sign an alliance.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: wissenlander on May 18, 2007, 02:59:54 PM
Well, I think what we're talking about is what to hit upon in the fluff really at this point.

I'm unsure of how the Bretonnians will side in the whole Dwarf v. Empire debate, because as of now they will not attack either, which is respectable.  How and if this changes during the campaign is of another topic, one that shouldn't really be spoken of unless events unfold to push them in that direction.

What we do know is that they have said they will support our efforts against any evil army.  Support position number one.  King Leoun's 'land grab' is probably a secondary objective and we can mention something in the fluff here or there about expansion or dual fiefdoms.

In actual game mechanics, we can't really side with one another.  So this discussion, at least to me, is about how we will support one another fluff wise.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: clausewitz on May 18, 2007, 03:56:07 PM
I have read the discussions at the Round Table and I'd like to thank FVC for his support of Empire-Bretonnia relations and his level-headedness.  Compared with some of the Empire's other erstwhile allies the Bretonnians have been positively friendly.

I agree that the difficulty is centred arounded GWs premise for the campaign (everyman for himself!).  It is just not setup to allow for much in the way of alliances.

However, I do have one thought that might fit well for a fluff-alliance.

On the campaign maps there are a number of unnamed "villages" (or settlements of some sort).  Since the Empire plan is focused on first defending important places there should be a number of these little places that we don't intend to "defend" (i.e. our fluff won't mention them).  Perhaps we could name some of these (I think one of the regions is already discussing this) and offer them as places for the Bretonnians to "offer their protection to".

This way the Bretonnians are not interferring with the Imperial armies missions (so we follow the GW Empire fluff) and the Bretonnians get to try and defend some new land (following the GW Bret fluff).  It strikes me that by making sure we dont contradict the GW fluff we are more likely to get our plans accepted by GW and put into being.

After the campaign the Bretonnian Barons that successfully defended a settlement could be granted the dual-feifdom FVC mentioned.  And the Empire need not look upon it as "stealing" the land but simply more nobles that provide protection and pay taxes in areas that otherwise would have been overrun.

Is this a win/win scenario?
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: FVC on May 19, 2007, 12:01:15 AM
Quote from: Dendo Star
I have changed my stance ((my post )), please, show my letter to The Round Table.  If we fail to act soon all is lost.

You seem to be following our on thinking in the matter. Settra has raided Bretonnia many times in the past, and yet again just recently. Focusing on the Tomb Kings is a high priority, and one that most every Bretonnian agrees on. I'll take along your proposal, of course, and I'm sure it will be well received. That we should work together against the forces of evil has never really been questioned.

Quote from: wissenlander
I'm unsure of how the Bretonnians will side in the whole Dwarf v. Empire debate, because as of now they will not attack either, which is respectable.  How and if this changes during the campaign is of another topic, one that shouldn't really be spoken of unless events unfold to push them in that direction.

That debate is still going on (on the secret Council board, so no eavesdropping :-P), but from how it proceeds, this is where I think we stand. Firstly, I don't believe we're going to side with the dwarfs against you. The question at present seems to be whether we - 1) actively side with you against the dwarfs, going so far as to fight them as well, 2) ally with you but refuse to take up arms against dwarfs and their allies, or 3) remain entirely neutral.

The problem is a statement in GW's little booklet - 'So it is that King Louen has issued a decree. It is clear, he has said, that the Empire is beset, and that Bretonnia must rise to defend her cousin. An Errantry War has been declared, its aim to purge the Empire of all threats.' Some are arguing that this explicitly commands us to aid the Empire against any threats, including the dwarfs. Others disagree.

If I were to guess, I think we'll end up around 2). We'd ally with you, support your council and aid you against 'evil' races, but refuse to fight any 'good' race.

Quote from: clausewitz
I have read the discussions at the Round Table and I'd like to thank FVC for his support of Empire-Bretonnia relations and his level-headedness.  Compared with some of the Empire's other erstwhile allies the Bretonnians have been positively friendly.

Bear in mind that I'm probably the person most sympathetic to the Empire on the Round Table. That's why I'm here. For those who haven't been to the Round Table, most of them aren't as keen on an Empire-Bretonnia alliance as I.

Quote
On the campaign maps there are a number of unnamed "villages" (or settlements of some sort).  Since the Empire plan is focused on first defending important places there should be a number of these little places that we don't intend to "defend" (i.e. our fluff won't mention them).  Perhaps we could name some of these (I think one of the regions is already discussing this) and offer them as places for the Bretonnians to "offer their protection to".

That sounds most reasonable, and would surely be accepted. After all, you don't have the time and/or men to defend everything, and it's a chivalrous undertaking worthy of any knight.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Wyzer1 on May 19, 2007, 10:22:26 PM
@wissendlander & Veldemere
I saw your efforts on the Wood Elves board. Nice try really, i tried to make a point as well but they seem unable to reason. Tis sad, I am planning on starting up a secondary Wood Elf army

They have us as enemy number 4... above skaven, tomb kings, ogres and DARK ELVES

Ugh, and the hippocrites are allying with Dwarfs.......... even going so far as to allow them access to the forests. As sad as I am to say this... let them burn feel sorry for them  :-D
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Schmeag on May 19, 2007, 10:53:49 PM
Eh, we've been through this before already...

Quote from: Veldemore, regarding the GW fluff for Empire
Fluff wise. I am very keen to keep up with GW fluff and in no way intend to subvert the campaign,

Check all my posts starting from here (http://www.warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=15940.250). Most of them were responded to either by Veldemere or wissenlander. Also, I read your subsequent grievance; I haven't answered it yet, but I'll say it here first.

Quote from: Wyzer1
You make me sad
Link (http://woodelves.org/viewtopic.php?t=7402&start=25)

1. That's one person saying that.
2. I have already been told that you are following GW fluff.
3. I don't actually agree with it.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Wyzer1 on May 19, 2007, 11:07:09 PM
On a different note, we need to have some skreening system put in place to keep prying elven eyes off our forum   :engel: :engel:

lol



P.s. dont have anything better to do at work either huh, Schmeag? lol
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Schmeag on May 19, 2007, 11:43:59 PM
:D I think the others were considering it.

Quote
P.s. dont have anything better to do at work either huh, Schmeag? lol

More like: Don't have a life on the weekends? Yes. :) (I'm of schooling age. ;) )
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Jerok on May 20, 2007, 01:32:05 AM
Alright, i've taken a back seat in these discussions mainly because you guys move WAY to fast for me, because WoW is friggin addictive and I want the power spread out.

Now, my opinion is that there are few logical, applicable and DO-ABLE things we as a Brett-Empire relations team can accomplish. We can say all we want about dual-fiefs and feudalism, but when it comes down to it, if we want to do something like that here are the steps we need to take for it.

Develop a System - What areas, when and who?
Check the System - How do we easily relate to it in reports?
Implement it - Make SURE everyone agrees to the items.
Formal Write-up - Write everything down in a preferably brief, but thoroughly descriptive document I can send to the head narrator.

To do smaller things like point the Bretts towards Wastelands/Marienburg, is easy as long as everyone agrees.

So remember, make sure you can Do it easily, not just think it.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: clausewitz on May 20, 2007, 06:36:30 PM
Develop a System - What areas, when and who?
I suggest that each region's commander co-ordinate a brief discussion to decide which site in their region would be most suitable.
These would be compiled and added to a formal proposal to the Bretonnians.

Fluff-wise it would be nice if the Brets had a commander equivalent to our General Helstrom, then we could draft a letter to their commander.  This would outline that the Empire has heard that the Bretonnian forces are "coming to our aid" and go on to list the places that "the Empire cannot afford to defend at this time".  Hopefully the Brets can send a reply indicating that they will defend those places etc.

Check the System - How do we easily relate to it in reports?

Imperial commanders can mention forces moving towards the places being defended by the Brets.  Perhaps sending messengers with warnings of approaching enemies etc.

Perhaps Bretonnian commanders can write that they have received an Imperial messenger and that they then move against said foe. Or at the lowest level of interaction the Bretonnians need simply state that their battles are being fought "defending the village of *****"

Implement it - Make SURE everyone agrees to the items.

Do any Empire players object?  If so please let us know.

We need to present a formal proposal that has the backing of W-E.  That way Wissenlander (as our ambassador to the Bretonnians) can make an offer with W-E support.

Formal Write-up - Write everything down in a preferably brief, but thoroughly descriptive document I can send to the head narrator.

Any volunteers?  :-)

I have little experience writing WFB fluff but I will make an attempt if nobody else wishes to do so.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: wissenlander on May 21, 2007, 01:08:52 PM
FVC, I'm shocked that I would have such accusations slung at me. :engel: Eavesdropping...it's tactical listening.

I agree that it shouldn't be something complicated.  That's why I think the discussion of land as a whole is getting a bit over drawn.  It will be hard to put in the fluff, besides saying, 'oh this is a nice little village, I think I'll claim it for myself at the Elector's approval.'

As soon as something is worked up, I'll parlay with the Brets.  If anyone needs my help in some of this stuff, just let me know.  As long as I get a chance between what I'm doing here at work, I'm down. :laugh:
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: CaptScott on May 22, 2007, 05:33:03 AM
My thoughts on the Bretonnian alliance.  There are four main races we have to watch out for in this campaign - 1. Orcs, 2. Vamps, 3. Chaos and 4. Bretonnia (!).  These are the races that may establish a foothold in OUR lands at the end of this campaign if they are victorous, and therefore we should not help these races in any way

Our only real options for alliances are therefore Dwarves, High and Wood Elves, Lizardmen and Ogres.

On a side note has anybody thought about establishing a treaty with the :drumroll: Dark Elves (!?).  If our other 'allies' will not help us perhaps we can make an arrangement with the Dark Elves that they only enslave non-empire forces...  Its just a thought, but this is a time of strife for the Empire.  The storm of chaos has weakened us and we are about to be assaulted on all sides by every race in the Old World.  Deadly times call for ruthless measures...
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on May 22, 2007, 07:04:09 AM
This is heresy.... :Ohmy: if you follow this road perhaps we should ally ourselves with the four powers of chaos to preserve our borders.

....The Dark Elves are what is rotten in the Race of the Asur....the offspring of Chaos....and you wish to parlay with them? Get your wits back together general or the Witchhunters will hear of this.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Veldemere on May 22, 2007, 08:08:06 AM
There was a point where this kind of heresy would have been listened to but thankfully we have come to our senses.

Any alliance (no matter what race you are) with the dark elves is not worth the paper it is written on, they would seek a meat shield who they can then stab in the back. Asking them not to enslave humans is something akin to Canute turning the tide.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Ostermarker on May 22, 2007, 08:21:10 AM
My thoughts on the Bretonnian alliance.  There are four main races we have to watch out for in this campaign - 1. Orcs, 2. Vamps, 3. Chaos and 4. Bretonnia (!).  These are the races that may establish a foothold in OUR lands at the end of this campaign if they are victorous, and therefore we should not help these races in any way

Actually, I would say that it would be better to have Bretonnians have this land, as they are far more trustworthy honourable, and would (hopefully) listen to reason. Orcs would just all out attack anyone, expanding their borders, Chaos would have an increased foothold in the  Empire, but this time an overt one. Vampires, *sigh* Sylvania? They already have land in the Empire.

We should help the Bretonnians have some land, then they would have a stake in the health of the Empire, possibly improving relations between the two countries, rather than have an army of an enemy inside our borders.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Veldemere on May 22, 2007, 08:30:07 AM
Or ideally we have no-one within our borders, sometimes it is easier to deal with enemies who are not like us, ones that the general population would feel rightfully indignant about their occupation of our territory. Makes raising armies far easier if they are not killing their own kind!
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on May 22, 2007, 09:21:28 AM
Where is the Imperial pride in you commanders? Pacts with the Dark Elves trying to please some Bretonians who possibly worship a Water Demon? We are not sharing our land....giving up our people neither to demons nor to some feudal cretin. The Empire is the greatest power in the Old World it is a great gift if we offer our friendship but never shall we bribe lesser Kingdoms with our land. We will stop the Green Tide ...like we stopped them before. We also crushed the Undead and the Chaos. But we won^t when we start to give up. If the other Races don^t want our friendship they shall know our steel ....
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: CaptScott on May 22, 2007, 09:24:10 AM
Look like I touched a nerve with that Dark Elf post - it wasn't meant to be taken very seriously.  I still think we shouldn't ally with the Brets for the reasons outlined above, but Ostermarker has a point.  If we have to have a foreign presence within our borders at the end of the campaign Bretonnia would be our first choice.  But I think we should follow up alliances with the Dwarves, (Good) Elves, Ogres and Lizzies before finalising any deals with them.

Also once again I say that all alliances should be on our terms, this is our kingdom after all.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on May 22, 2007, 09:47:52 AM
Yes this is what I am talking about ....we clashed with the bretonians many times in the days past. If they "steal" our land they will pay for it.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: FVC on May 22, 2007, 10:20:42 AM
I see the anti-Bretonnian sentiment has come on strong...

I'm not sure how many times this had been said, but here it is again. We do not want to steal your land. The dishonour of such theft would hurt us more than anything you could ever do. This sentiment is strong throughout the entire Round Table. Our hope is to focus aggression against Marienburg and to aid and protect settlements in the Empire... our top priority, though, is the Tomb King Settra, whom we are considering hunting down in vengeance for his repeated raids against Bretonnian soil.

Of course, GW does not follow our thought pattern fully. If land is too great a concern, then sadly we may not be able to ally in full. However, even in such a case, may I suggested a limited alliance between us, against certain foes? Land will remain out of the question, but we could render all possible aid to soldiers of the Empire engaged in battle against the forces of evil (i.e. not dwarfs, not High or Wood Elves, not lizardmen) and vice versa. One thing we are particularly interested in is the possibility that you aid us in our search for Settra. Using the Imperial roads and utilising the reports of Imperial scouts and watchmen (of course, we only ask for that which pertains to Settra - censor everything else!) would greatly aid us in our quest. As Settra is your foe as well, aiming to plunder Altdorf of relics, it is in your best interests as well. So, would such a bargain be possible?
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Veldemere on May 22, 2007, 10:33:39 AM
Thanks FVC.

It is true that we sometimes forget that not all players are happy with the fluff laid out for us. From what I have seen on the round table the Brets would prefer other fights.

How is the poll going over there?
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on May 22, 2007, 10:37:20 AM
The point of an alliance is to unite under one banner the bretonians fought well in their crusade against Archaon. And I personally don't see any problems sharing our intelligence concerning the enemy with you especially to crush the Undead. But as soon the war is over, as soon as the invading forces are repelled the bretons will live the soil of the sons of Sigmar.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: FVC on May 22, 2007, 10:54:26 AM
Poll, Veldemere? The survey was ended some time ago and planning is now being done mainly by the council, which consists of around ten people, including myself. Of course, we're still keeping an eye on what most people think, so that we don't go too far off.

In terms of diplomacy, I probably shouldn't be telling you this but it looks like (by which I mean it has not been technically agreed upon, but so far every member that's posted is unanimously for it) our policy regarding alliances will be -
1/ Non-aggression with the Empire, with the possibility of a defensive alliance to protect Imperial towns and villages.
2/ Non-aggression with the other 'good' races, on the condition that they do not threaten the Empire.
3/ Alliance with those who will against the 'evil' races.
4/ Destruction of the Nemesis Crown should it come into our possession.

Frankly, that's more sympathetic towards you than I thought we'd get. It is based upon King Louen's command that 'Bretonnia must rise to defend her cousin' (as the campaign booklet says). So that's where we're coming from and what we would ideally like. We are on your side, whether you like it or not.

The second point may need clarification. We do not consider simply walking about on Imperial territory to be threatening the Empire. If a 'good' race issues orders to attack an Empire town or village, for example, it would be a threat. In such a case we would send an emissary asking them to rescind the order. Should they refuse, the guilt of oath-breaking would be on their heads.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on May 22, 2007, 11:14:24 AM
What about Renegade Knights....any Bretonians who attack imperial troops on the March? Are they outside the protection of Leoncoeur?
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: wissenlander on May 22, 2007, 12:01:23 PM
Whilst I appreciate the fervor of everyone here...  Let me remind some that may have not been around through the entire thread.

We have tried to establish relations with every good race.  Everyone except the Bretonnians said take a hike.  Our old allies think we are a weak race, susceptable to chaotic powers.

Lizardmen shoo'd us away before we could really open up communications.

Wood Elves mainly threatened to shoot us where we stood.

Dwarfs demanded we step aside while they grab the crown.

High Elves think that the destruction of the crown is priority one, and they don't think that we have the mindset to do it.

Ogres sided with the Dwarfs from day one.

The discussions that took place between myself and my fellow ambassadors were long and at times extremely frustrating.  Now we're in the phase of 'fluff' alliances, and to be honest I have no idea how it's going to work out.  I'm popping my head around here and there to see if anyone's interested.

Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Veldemere on May 22, 2007, 01:09:49 PM
What about Renegade Knights....any Bretonians who attack imperial troops on the March? Are they outside the protection of Leoncoeur?

What about renegade imperial forces, not all Empire players are signed up to this. All we can ask is that the majority of members of the forums will adhere to the guidelines. I hope FVC and his council are able to get these agreements through and would happily sign up to such a pact. Please note I am not saying we give land away and we can work together to ensure this does not happen.

As Wiss said, compared to other races the Bretonnians have been the most welcoming and willing to listen to reason. Maybe there is a chance of closer ties following on from this.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Wyzer1 on May 22, 2007, 03:47:49 PM
Hopefully everyone will at least follow the plan once it is made

I for one will (for the sake of fun and fluff) follow any plan we agree on whether or not I agree with the plan itself

My vote: I for one wood rather a dwarf or WE alliance (although they dont want us)

Failing that, Bretonnia would be fine by me. no taking our territory though. Any other race (except a very remote high elves) and its a no go for my vote
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Mark Perry on May 22, 2007, 05:08:38 PM
Having read the threads on this subject in this and other forums, and being a student of history, Alliances like promises are there to be broken. They may start out with the best of intentions but the terms and conditions are subject to change as the fortunes of war dictate.

Alliances are also made so that they are mutually beneficial to both parties. The Brett's want Land, our Land to be precise, just like the Soviets moved into the East of Europe after WW2 to "Offer protection and stabilize / Liberate those countries from Germany". The Brett's move in protect those cities / villages in the region and then they err.. stay there and they become defacto part of Brettonia. In return we get there help defending those places.

The Dwarfs, Elves, Lizys and Wood Elves will probably make local alliances between themselves as they all want the crown destroyed, and concider us too weak to be of much help. If we stay out of there way they will probably stay out of ours - no guarantees though!

The good thing is that the above will certainly be hostile to most of the other races, especially those who want to take the crown for themselves or get in their way, ie O&G, Skaven, DE, etc.

I suggest that we accept the help from the Brett but be aware of what they want and be prepared to deal with it.

I suggest that while we can probably rely on the Brett's to help repell Chaos
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Sherminator1 on May 22, 2007, 08:05:22 PM
I am completely for an alliance with the Brettonians, it has been amde clear they only wish to take land that is not only not part of The Empire, but not even desired by The Empire.

If we can, we should try and make something with the High Elves, they are trustworthy, we owe them for the Great War, and it could help build something much more lasting.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Jerok on May 23, 2007, 02:49:06 AM
*BIG MOD VOICE* - All mention of the Dark Elves thing has been removed. Some people seem to have really taken offense, and it also spurred a long line of things inapropriate to this thread and board. In the original post it also talked harshly against that which the majority finds a potential ally, another reason why it was removed. I tried to leave everything that actually had reason to be here. Sorry to those who I removed stuff from, but I’d reather it not be here.

*Normal voice* - I want to remind everyone new to the thread that most ideas have been explored. Especially in most cases with the 'Good' Races. The Brettonions truly are the only viable option currently.

To Mark Perry - You make very good points, and I was thinking of this myself earlier. The problem with your analogy is that these alliances are only meant for certain circumstances (as well as a known amount of time.) We also have no REAL fear of things taking a big dive unless the Bretts, at a crucial point in the campaign (which really there won't be any specificly utterly crucial points) all turn against us as one. The likely of this happening is almost 0.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: CaptScott on May 23, 2007, 03:43:22 AM
Thanks to both Wissenlander and Jerok for clearing up what is actually going on with the other good races (its hard to keep up if your not very active on the sites).  At least the Bretonnians seem to have our backs.  (In general I am pro-Bretonnia, and feel they should be our primary allies alongside the dwarves - its just the GW campaign fluff that put me off the alliance)
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: FVC on May 23, 2007, 08:30:43 AM
In addition, Mark Perry's point does use a 20th century example - I'm guessing he is thinking about alliances in terms of 20th century politics, with a modern understanding of everything the term involves. Used in a medieval context, it doesn't quite mean the same thing. Remember that there is no conception of 'the state' as an abstract entity in Bretonnia. To an extent there is in the Empire, but there is not in Bretonnia. The idea of these villages becoming 'de facto part of Bretonnia' is not an entirely valid one because the word Bretonnia does not have that meaning, and in no way implies exclusivity. If you travelled back in time to the early 14th century and started talking about France, the locals would not understand the term in anything like the way we understand it now.

Of course, there is ambition. I understand that; I'm a realist. That ambition, however, does not take the form of a desire to expand the Bretonnian state. It is primarily a desire held by individual lords to increase their personal power and influence. Admittedly, this may provide an excuse for such lords to do so, possibly at your expense. Then again, if you think about it the other way around, this gives the Empire direct influence over Bretonnian lords, and through them, into Bretonnia itself. If they're living in the Empire, to administer new fiefs, then that means you can exert influence over them, and, consequently, over their fiefs in Bretonnia. The door swings both ways, does it not?

Naturally, GW will not notice that, as regrettably they seem to care little about the nature of medieval politics, but there you are...
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Schmeag on May 23, 2007, 08:39:13 AM
Quote
The Dwarfs, Elves, Lizys and Wood Elves will probably make local alliances between themselves as they all want the crown destroyed

We are trying to negotiate about how much we (the Wood Elves) know about the Crown. We also have a more overarching goal to drive the Beastmen from the woods, and, to a lesser extent, drive other races from the woods as well. At the moment, we are currently attempting to solidify some kind of outward stance to put everyone out of their confusion--if they were confused in the first place. Please be patient. :)

Quote
At least the Bretonnians seem to have our backs.  (In general I am pro-Bretonnia, and feel they should be our primary allies alongside the dwarves - its just the GW campaign fluff that put me off the alliance)

It's also the campaign fluff which means that GW will more than likely not be accepting something like the Men and Dwarfs allying together. ;)
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Mark Perry on May 23, 2007, 10:48:03 AM
With regard to my previous post, I would just like to clarify a few things. It boils down to this:

1) All nations will do what is in their own best interst.

2) All nations will concider alliances, treaties, pacts with other nations if they share a common goal or it is in their national interest.           

3) In our situation I agree that the Bretts will help us, and most likely remain loyal, But they will want something in return which is parts of our land. As long as we know this and are prepared to accept this (which I don't think is a good idea), or have a plan to deal with it later then ok, we know where we stand.

4) The other races are split into 3 camps
    Camp 1 those who want to destroy the crown
    Camp 2 those want the crown themselves
    Camp 3 those who have other reasons for being here

We have the entire Warhammer world slugging it out in our back garden. We cannot fight everyone, we don't have the strength, so we have to choose who we will fight.

Those in Camp 1 will probably not fight us unless we get in the way of them destroying the crown. Camp 2 will probably fight us as they look for the crown, but will more than likely be slugging it out with those in Camp 1 more than anything else.
Camp 3 will be fighting everyone.

I suggest we can act as "King Makers" - much like the Earl of Warrick in the War of the Roses (but without the same fate!!). We concentrate on those forces that are going to attack us anyway ie Camp 3 and to a lesser degree Camp 2. Camp 1 will do allot of our work for us as they fight everyone for the crown.

After a week or so the initial dust will of settled and we can see how each group is doing. More than likely the Dwarfs will have to realize that they will need help and we will then be in a much better position to come to some sort of arrangement, that is more beneficial to us, but that allows them to destroy the crown. Others of camp 1 will also probably realize that no single army is strong enough by itself and thats when the negotiating will start in earnest.

Until then I suggest nonaggression pacts with camp 1 and concentrate our power on those that are going to attack us anyway.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: wissenlander on May 23, 2007, 12:26:27 PM
It's a good strategy Mark, my only fear is that all of it won't work because of the game functions of the campaign.

The reason we can't ally with races is because it's every faction for itself.  In fluff terms we may be able to work something out, but it has to be supported by both sides and fit somewhat into GW fluff.  My thought the whole time has been to not work so dang hard on something only to have it tossed out the window because it contradicted completely what GW wanted.  Now, I don't think we should play the role of a pawn either.

If we had massive support from the Brewery, I'd be for an 'alliance' with the Dwarfs.  But it's tough to go it alone.

That being said, of the established fluff we're trying to work with, ie. the land issue with Bretonnia can be worked out in two ways.

1.  We cooperate civily and grant nobles who have helped us, giving them lands that they have helped defend or reach an agreement about the Marches of Corounne.

2.  Fight it tooth and nail.

The first option makes more sense (at least to me) because we can support one another and it doesn't stretch either one of us too much.  We both get something out of the deal here as well.

If we fight it, why do we fight it?  Pride?  Why should we turn our back on the one nation who said they won't turn their back on us?  The fluff presented shows that Leoun's crusade here isn't as bad as it was first made out to be.

I agree that we should have a stance of non agression towards the good races.  But remember that they may not be so accomodating.  Number of wins determines who will get the crown (at least that's the way I read it).  So if we win the most games defending our home, then we may very well find it.

The only way we can work out not actually attacking something is through reported fluff.

Oh, and thanks to Schmeag and FVC.  Your efforts on your respective forums have been very beneficial in clarification for us.

Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: FVC on May 23, 2007, 01:11:55 PM
1) All nations will do what is in their own best interst.

2) All nations will concider alliances, treaties, pacts with other nations if they share a common goal or it is in their national interest.

Bretonnia is not a nation. ;)

I'm being pedantic, I know, but in the strict sense of the word Bretonnia isn't a nation. It's a geographical and cultural term, not a political one. Here's a little quote from Knights of the Grail (WFRP sourcebook for Bretonnia) to that effect -

Quote from: KotG, p. 21
Noble politics take place within the feudal system, an archaic political system that was found across the Old World several centuries ago. Now, Bretonnia is the only land where it remains. The feudal system is based on oaths of loyalty between individuals and has no abstract conception of the state. Whilst Bretonnians think of themselves as a nation on a par with the Empire, there is no legal substance to "Bretonnia" beyond "all people who ultimately owe loyalty to the King of Bretonnia and the lands that they hold."

This is the justification for all that fun dual allegiance stuff I was talking about. Oaths of loyalty between individuals. A noble has an oath of loyalty to the Duke of whatever Dukedom he hails from, the Duke has an oath to the King of Bretonnia; said noble has a duty to aid the Duke, and as the Duke must aid the King the noble must effectively also aid the King. Nowhere in this arrangement does it say that the noble may not have an oath to anyone else. He is not allowed to have a contradictory oath, for obvious reasons, but there is no legal reason why a Bretonnian noble cannot also be a citizen (and a noble) of the Empire. His oaths would merely have to lay out clearly what his obligations are in the case of conflict between Bretonnia and the Empire. If you read some 12th and 13th century oaths of allegiance you can see this sort of law in action.

Anyway, that's not relevant because we've more or less given up on that idea, despite my liking of it. I just go on about it. If anyone wishes to discuss the concept further it had best go to PMs.

Now, as far as treaties go...

I don't think we of the Round Table have any problems with the possibility of an alliance that says that Bretonnian nobles cannot take any land in the Empire. We don't want it - we want to catch Settra and grab lots of land around Marienburg. However, GW does want it, and their opinions count for more than ours. Can we make a treaty that does not involve land? Something like -
1/ Bretonnia and the Empire shall cooperate and share information pertaining to the fight against evil races.
1/a) Bretonnian forces shall do all possible to defend the Empire and its people against enemies (certainly including evil forces, good races if and only if they are the unprovoked aggressors).
1/b) Imperial forces will help us in the search for Settra in particular.
2/ The Empire will raise no protest in defence of Marienburg.

I believe we can agree on those two points? If we take those as the bare minimum of an alliance, and only worry about the land issue if it becomes a problem (hopefully it will not for, as stated, we don't want to snatch your land and if lucky can convey this to GW in reports), would that be acceptable for now?
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: wissenlander on May 23, 2007, 01:23:29 PM
I think you know my thought.  I support it.  Your statement of GW's opinion counting for more than ours sums it up.  Like I've said before, the guys and gals over at the Round Table don't really want any land.  They're trying to work with in the confines of the fluff presented just as we are.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: farmer on May 23, 2007, 01:51:25 PM
We cannot fight everyone, we don't have the strength, so we have to choose who we will fight.

What!! :Ohmy:

We are the biggest powerful nation in the whole of the Old World. Our Armies are the best drilled and trained out there and are second to none. I think its about time we started to big ourselves up be pround of who we are. We are men of the Empire the Old World's only Super-power. I believe that we have the ability to put up a good fight on all fronts. You don't hear other races such as the Woodelves and the Tomb Kings worrying about who they fight. Alliances are good but we should not bend over backwards for them, and If it is indeed the Empire's time to end, then we should go out with such a bang that the Old World will never forget the name Sigmar.  :ph34r:
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Veldemere on May 23, 2007, 01:56:20 PM
Thanks for your thoughts FVC. I too would support this alliance, the only addendum I would like to see is purely a fluff thing that as many of your fluff posters as possible add something about being able to retire to their land around Marienberg etc, who knows 'they' may listen.

As for the points of the treaty they seem mutually beneficial although what support we can offer may be limited as we are beset on all sides. I am hopeful of a new dawn in relations between our people and yours.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Jerok on May 23, 2007, 07:00:48 PM
WHAT THE HECK!

It seems my Mod powers are limited to a Day at a time. Everything I disposed of came back! Aaaah!
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Gneisenau on May 23, 2007, 07:10:19 PM
I think those terms are fair.

And let's not forget one particular advantage of an alliance with the bretonnians:
If it is true that the overall number of wins will decide who's going to find the crown, then there's quite a good chance that our southern neighbours will be the lucky ones. A better chance than, let's say, the Ogres have (no offense meant, FVC, I don't question your tactical abilities, but you gentlemen do have quite a strong army in comparison).

Until, let's say, six weeks ago, I wouldn't have hesitated of naming the dwarfs as our closest ally in any respect. So much for that.
Oh, imagine the fun when we or the bretonnians would find it. How much would their pretty alliance be worth, then?

And if we were the ones to find it - what would their ambassadors be saying to get it from us?

"We saw the errors of our ways, now please negotiate and don't be short with us"?

Or: "Could you not try being the bigger man"?


Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Sherminator1 on May 23, 2007, 07:35:55 PM
and If it is indeed the Empire's time to end, then we should go out with such a bang that the Old World will never forget the name Sigmar.  :ph34r:
Ha-ooh Ha-ooh Ha-oooh! Aut Vincere aut Mori!
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Dendo Star on May 23, 2007, 07:50:39 PM
Ah, the Empire.

You may manage to kill us, but you will at least lose an eye.

May Sigmar's Hammer bash the soul the poor fool who thinks to undo us.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Sherminator1 on May 23, 2007, 07:59:52 PM
I do personally believe that we can stand on our own (well, almost). With the new book we've probably experienced a small surge in players, however, this will still leave us outnumbered without allying as our many enemies have. I believe that with Brettonnia we can hold our own (not win, but not get slaughtered either), however, we must reach out to the high elves.

I have been following their negotiations, there appears to be a 60/40 split within them on whether to ally themselves with The Dwarves, or us, with many wanting to make non-aggression pacts between the two of us.

I believe that we should aggressively pursue any sort of agreement with the HE. While most likely we won't give them the Crown outright, perhaps we can "test" it with teclis, or some representative of theirs near us. When Karl Franz realizes its evil, we can just turn it over peacefully(?).

But that's just my 2 cents.

-The Prince
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: wissenlander on May 23, 2007, 08:10:54 PM
That would include the Council of the Wise that Cisse was talking about so much early on.  I think that can still be a stance of ours.  Call everyone together to figure out what the crap it is, and point at it and say, "We all fought over this?"

Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Sherminator1 on May 23, 2007, 08:14:35 PM
What was I thinkingg? Sorry guys I was just hungover from Archaons rave, my b.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: wissenlander on May 23, 2007, 08:32:10 PM
No worries man.  I think that's a stance we can stick with, something to lean on throughout the campaign.  A way to wash our hands of the issue, defending our homes and we offered to convene a Council of the Wise in order to deal with it.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: cisse on May 23, 2007, 10:30:46 PM
That would include the Council of the Wise that Cisse was talking about so much early on.  I think that can still be a stance of ours.  Call everyone together to figure out what the crap it is, and point at it and say, "We all fought over this?"


Well... I still think it is a likely way for GW to solve the situation if the Empire gets the NC. Because, let's face it, they wont let Karl Franz use it and be corrupted: that'd mean the Empire gets corrupted as well, and that's a major change in the warhammer world. Not very probable. A Council does seem probable on the other hand, especially because the fluff prior to the Shower of Chaos campaign showed that it is possible to call together such a council.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: FVC on May 23, 2007, 10:36:30 PM
And let's not forget one particular advantage of an alliance with the bretonnians:
If it is true that the overall number of wins will decide who's going to find the crown, then there's quite a good chance that our southern neighbours will be the lucky ones. A better chance than, let's say, the Ogres have (no offense meant, FVC, I don't question your tactical abilities, but you gentlemen do have quite a strong army in comparison).

Until, let's say, six weeks ago, I wouldn't have hesitated of naming the dwarfs as our closest ally in any respect. So much for that.
Oh, imagine the fun when we or the bretonnians would find it. How much would their pretty alliance be worth, then? And what would their ambassadors be saying to get it from us?

Just for clarification, we're not promising to give you the Crown. Our policy is that, should we find it, we will give it to the Fay Enchantress and she will decide what to do with it.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Gneisenau on May 23, 2007, 11:02:14 PM
Yes, my apologies, I misphrased that (changed the wording right away). I think it is a general opinion on this forum that, contrary to GW fluff, we have no interest at all in this thing. There even was a poll on it, I seem to remember, with very definite results.

We'd just like to ensure that it isn't in the "wrong hands". In my opinion, we can safely assume that the fay enchantress will be the last to run amok with this thing.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on May 24, 2007, 07:18:24 AM
Hmmm I personally am not so sure about the Fey enchantress....I mean Men clad all in Steel ...awesome fighters mostly because of the blessing of some magical powers.....could be slaanesh could be the fey enchantress...
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Veldemere on May 24, 2007, 09:13:44 AM
I do personally believe that we can stand on our own (well, almost). With the new book we've probably experienced a small surge in players, however, this will still leave us outnumbered without allying as our many enemies have. I believe that with Brettonnia we can hold our own (not win, but not get slaughtered either), however, we must reach out to the high elves.

Sadly looking at the scoring system it doesn't work like that, they count wins and  losses. Whereas there are some of us who have played Empire for years there are also a lot of new players (probably more likely to take part in the campaign), I am not saying that all new players are bad, far from it, but many are less experienced and more easily surprised. It will do no good to rest on numerical advantage.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Veldemere on May 24, 2007, 04:52:55 PM
Things are looking more hopeful for a fluff accord with the Dwarves in the UK region, can I sugges our region commanders speak to theirs as it seems now things are clearer the goals are closer than you would think.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: wissenlander on May 24, 2007, 04:56:08 PM
Rufas has sent a message on my behalf to the Talabec region (US) Commander Daft.  Lines of communication will remain open, but due to their already stretched allegiances, will not be able to 'coordinate' at this time.  Any of the other commanders can give it a shot though.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Demonslayer on May 24, 2007, 05:24:00 PM
Something entirely different, from Carpe Noctem (VC-site);

Quote
Well...

The goals which seem to have been put forth so far are:

1) Expand Sylvania's borders further into the Empire, swelling the realm of the Undead. This movement will begin in the 'Taalford Lowlands.'

2) Destroying as many Chaos forces as possible.

3) 'Howling Heights.' Occupation of this area (notably Mandredsfeld) would be very beneficial for securing a permament foothold in this campaign, so if fluff could be written linking to this at all, then that would be a good thing.

So, these Chaos players are dead set against Chaos and the Empire, but will be most active in Taalford and the Howling Hills. Seems like I'll have to get my crucifix and garlic out, then!
At least this is what the players on that site will be up to. Just thought I'd inform you all.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: cisse on May 24, 2007, 05:46:48 PM
Rufas has sent a message on my behalf to the Talabec region (US) Commander Daft.  Lines of communication will remain open, but due to their already stretched allegiances, will not be able to 'coordinate' at this time.  Any of the other commanders can give it a shot though.
I'll try to at least get the dwarfs in the Howling Heights to not attack us directly... Could work, I suppose we can agree to leave the mine to them (it's not like the NC is still in there).
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: FVC on May 25, 2007, 05:50:28 AM
Two hypothetical questions. Note - only hypothetical, these are not serious requests yet, and they may not ever be. Just so we know how far we can go, is all. In honesty, I am expecting the answer to both to be 'No, sod off', so don't worry about endangering relations or anything like that.

1/ How do you feel about giving Bretonnia jurisdiction over the entire range of the Grey Mountains? They mark our border, but what if the border were to be redrawn so that the Grey Mountains are part of Bretonnia and the Imperial border lies in the foothills?

2/ How do you feel about allowing a Bretonnian Duke (or other noble) to take on the role of Elector Count of Averland or of a reconstituted Solland? Said noble would be required to marry into a major Imperial noble family and his final economic and military allegiance would be to the Empire. The point would not be to gain land for Bretonnia but to cement an alliance between us through blood, for greater unity between the nations.
2/a) What if, in addition to a Bretonnian lord taking up such esteemed rank, it were also agreed that a lord of the Empire should become Duke of Mousillon, or of a reconstituted Cuileux or Glanborielle? Would that change the equation any?
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Veldemere on May 25, 2007, 08:30:44 AM
I would never be so impolite as to tell you to sod off, but I did come close!

I have no issues with the grey mountains.

I think there may be a few who have issues with Averland

I take serious exception to Solland (although Wiss will probably disagree with me)!

These are just my opinions and do not reflect the opinions of w-e.com. The problem with anything like this is I think people will have issues with taking parts of the Empire (whilst I am conscious you are not suggesting Averland cedes from the Empire merely that the next EC comes from the lands of Brettonia, I still think it is stretching it slightly and not sure that GW would follow the fluff line of thinking), but also any of us with armies form the affected regions will rail against it.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: FVC on May 25, 2007, 09:19:59 AM
Fair enough. One of the council members suggested it on the Round Table. Thought it was a pretty crazy idea, but you never know.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Ostermarker on May 25, 2007, 10:19:46 AM
I think that number 2 could work, a noble from Bretonnia becomes an Elector Count (possibly of Wissenland if Emmanuelle has her way) while an Impirial noble becomes a noble in Bretonnia.

(Is it just me or does that sound like a medieval version of wife swap: Noble Swap. No, no, just me then?)

To 1. I would say, that we should split them in two. You have the north, and the south, which would be inaccesible due to the Loren Forest, is the Empire's. What are others' opinions?
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: wissenlander on May 25, 2007, 10:23:26 AM
What would be the advantage of gaining the Grey Mountains?  I'd be wary just from a tactical point of view, not that we'd be losing valuable territory.  I don't think many will like the idea.

Averlanders will flip if the next Elector is from Bretonnia.  I wouldn't mind so much if the next Elector of Wissenland was a Bretonnian persay...but I wonder if we would be trampled underfoot by the differing Bretonnian way of thinking about the lower class.  At least the Countess doesn't care and let's her people do whatever, allowing us to tend to ourselves (which we do nicely I think).  But in the end I would be a little wary of that situation.  We have been through hell and back, used to this sort of stuff...man if GW catches wind of this one...

I'm not down for a new Solland whether it's headed by a Bretonnian or Veldemere.  Sorry Veldy, nothing personal.

The intermarying thing sounds like something that would happen though in real life.  A way to cement the relations between the two in order to make sure that we don't rescend on our deal.

And yes, these are my opinions, so you'd have to wait and see what the general consensus would be.  But I would think it would be a 'no' and a 'no.'
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Veldemere on May 25, 2007, 10:36:46 AM
I am not rising to it Wiss, until the end of the campaign we fight shoulder to shoulder, but marrying Emmanuelle, never thought of that tactic! Do you have the number for your favourite girl Wiss?
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: wissenlander on May 25, 2007, 10:42:43 AM
No, can't say I do.  I lost my little black book in the Upper Reik one day while looking out over the ramparts of Brennenburg.  Oh well, my wife was pleased of that fact.

By now the Countess is at least in her 40s I think.  I'm sure she'd make some poor fool happy. :roll:
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: FVC on May 25, 2007, 10:51:26 AM
Of course we could never do it, but the idea of marrying Emmanuelle off to a Bretonnian lord, preferably the very gruff and puritanical type, does bring a smile to my face. Let's have a look at potential candidates... it would be particularly hilarious to give her Duke Alberic of Bordeleaux
(KotG - 'Duke Alberic is renowned for his personal courage and astounding self-discipline. He is also notorious for expecting all of his household knights to reach the same standard and dismissing those who do not. As a result, he has the smallest household of any of the Dukes...'
'"I spent three years in Duke Alberic's household. Hated every single second of it. But you know, no opponent scares me now."
- Sir Thopas, whilst fighting a horde of Beastmen)
It would be so right. It would be torture for someone like Emmanuelle, and come on, who wouldn't want to see that? Of course, I'm not entirely sure Alberic is single, but I can't imagine any noblewomen would be mad enough to marry him. Theodoric of Brionne is probably the one who would get along best with Emmanuelle - he's a patron of the arts himself, and said to be a fair minstrel. He also has a certain taste for adultery, so everything's all right there. I could imagine him riding off into the Empire to protect it and writing a few songs to woo the fair Countess.
Such a shame it can't be done...
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: wissenlander on May 25, 2007, 10:54:01 AM
Tis true, very interesting thoughts.  My choice would be for Duke Alberic, and I'd probably laugh the whole time.  Wissenlanders everywhere could get a good laugh out of that I think.  But it would depend on how well he would rule and if he would be iron fisted, which never bodes well for the lesser nobles.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on May 25, 2007, 11:04:05 AM
Hmm the idea about some imperial "Duke of Mousillon" is nice.....perhaps we could get some personal from Sylvanian nobles...they should know how to manage those kind of lands.  :eusa_clap:

But nope I think the idea of cementing an alliance of permanence between the Brets and our beloved Empire fail in the differences of religion, culture and most of all politics. We have no King and I don't think the feudal Bretons will ever get used to even the slightest sort of demcracy even under nobles. So from my point of view..no and no.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: FVC on May 25, 2007, 11:12:50 AM
Quote from: wissenlander
But it would depend on how well he would rule and if he would be iron fisted, which never bodes well for the lesser nobles.

Eh, my first thought was Duke Chilfroy, who's renowned for subtle and fair attitude to solving disputes. By which I mean he automatically declares the higher-ranking person to be right and hands out an extraordinarily brutal punishment to the other. (Though to be fair to him, he's not stupid. He does it in order to ensure that no one ever takes a case to him, because he hates adjudicating.) Alberic isn't quite that bad, but as mentioned he does have that puritanical streak. Plus he's advancing in age. He does have several children too, which would suggest he was married at some point, though I don't know if the wife is still alive.

In terms of caring for the lower orders, Folcard of Montfort is probably the best. He also seems to be single, as supposedly Montfortian women, peasant and noble alike, often dream about him in a romantic sense.

The other noble who comes to mind is Marquis Adalhard of Couronne. He's not a duke, but has definite ambitions on the whole 'becoming a duke' front. Specifically, he wants to conquer Marienburg and turn it into a new dukedom. Still, he's ambitious enough to leap at the opportunity to grab a province.

Quote from: Fandir Nightshade
Hmm the idea about some imperial "Duke of Mousillon" is nice.....perhaps we could get some personal from Sylvanian nobles...they should know how to manage those kind of lands.

Truth be told, it's not all that great a deal. Mousillon for Averland? Averland is a relatively wealthy province, a real prize, while Mousillon is, let's not mince words, a cesspit. Still, someone has to clear Mousillon out, so why not get someone else to do all the hard work fighting and dying?

Quote
We have no King and I don't think the feudal Bretons will ever get used to even the slightest sort of demcracy even under nobles. So from my point of view..no and no.

:Ohmy: You think the Empire is democratic?

Riiight.... the Empire is ruled by a hereditary aristocracy as well, you know. Both nations are quite autocratic.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Demonslayer on May 25, 2007, 12:24:44 PM
Quote
the Empire is ruled by a hereditary aristocracy as well, you know.

Hey! At least we go through a lot of trouble to make it LOOK like we're democratic. After all, we have an elected Emperor! Sure, there's only 15 people with a right to vote, but that's beside the point  :icon_rolleyes:.

Quote
Mousillon for Averland

Wissenland, not Averland. But truth be told I'd rather not be without Wissenland either.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: wissenlander on May 25, 2007, 12:32:11 PM
Well the main, origonal point was to put a Bret in place for the vacant Averland Elector.  Somehow we got into marrying off Emanuelle and all the diabolical consequences. :evil:

And I don't want to be without Wissenland either, can you imagine what that would do to my fluff?!
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Veldemere on May 25, 2007, 01:14:02 PM
Ahhh you could be "the artist formerly known as ......."

But I think mayhaps this conversation is getting a little off track as I am not sure we are in a position to manage arranged marriages.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: FVC on May 25, 2007, 01:24:56 PM
True. It is fun, though. We're not going to actually propose it.

Bringing the discussion back to more significant issue, though, what was the response to ceding the Grey Mountains? All this marriage-related fun overshadowed that issue.
(And yes, the Grey Mountains are significant. If Bretonnia were to own them, we could march over them whenever we liked. It's not quite to the level of asking you to cede Helmgart to us, but getting pretty close to it.)
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Gneisenau on May 25, 2007, 01:39:59 PM
Hey! At least we go through a lot of trouble to make it LOOK like we're democratic. After all, we have an elected Emperor! Sure, there's only 15 people with a right to vote, but that's beside the point  :icon_rolleyes:.


Terry Pratchett again:

"Ankh-Morpork, city of "one man, one vote". The Patrician was the man, he had the vote".

Up to now, I thought the Grey Mountains were part of neither Bretonia nor the Empire, the reason being that they are so full of Orcs that nobody really wants them. "March over whenever we like" seems not to hit the point, therefor. It's more "march in whenever we like, and get out alive if we are lucky". I guess the greenskins will not be impressed to hear that they are under your jurisdiction...

Nonetheless, it would be a strategical advantage against the empire, hence: no and no.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Veldemere on May 25, 2007, 01:42:35 PM
Once on has surrendered no-mans land it does tend to bring more bloody conflict.

But there again it would keep the Bretts bust trying to clear the mountains and reduce the threat on that border.

Not quite sure how well knights fight in mountainous terrain!
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Jerok on May 26, 2007, 02:09:34 AM
Guys, don't think the Marriage thing won't work.

You guys need to remember one thing, trust in your commanders. Aka. Me! I have the e-mail of the Head Narrator, and if we formulate it correctly and support it in our reports (not too hard, especially for those played Wissenland forces) it could be done. I have a feeling GW would like the thing with putting Emanualla (is that it?) in her place. While it is characterful that there is a flauncy woman in charge of the hard Wissenland, it is even more so for her to be put in her place by the Emperor/Other Electors. What if, rather than having a man who is already a Duke, we have the Noblest (Chivalrous etc.) knight of the Campaign win her hand in marriage?

That spurs the Brett campaign on more aswell with the young Nobles all wanting a Noblewoman as a wife, especially one that brings the command of an entire province of the Empire with her.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: FVC on May 26, 2007, 07:26:27 AM
If it possible, and there is support, then I would be all for the idea. Nor do I think there would be great opposition on the Round Table. Come to think of it, it would solve the land problem reasonably well too. Depending on how you want to do it, there's a good chance it would be implemented on the Bretonnian side as well.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Demonslayer on May 26, 2007, 03:25:32 PM
It won't work.

Emanuella is an Elector Countess. If she doesn't want to be married off (which I expect she doesn't want), then there's nobody with a right to force her. The other counts? Same rank as her. The Emperor? Possibly, but very unlikely. He just doesn't strike me as the man to do such a thing.

Besides, would a Bretonnian lord really even consider marrying her? After all, her reputation is not all that honourable...
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Lathaine on May 27, 2007, 05:28:46 AM
Hail Empire Generals of renown,

I am Earl Lathaine de Bastonne of Bretonnia and have come to discuss plans to ally our factions along with FVC. I am currently one of the council members supportive of an alliance of our forces and am leaning against a serious alliance with the Dwarfs. That said, I wanted to discuss terms of a treaty we might be able to hash out with you. This is by no means a final document or representative of what the council as a whole wants, these are merely terms I myself consider important to any alliance with the Empire. We are still discussing our options in full at the Round Table but I am doing this to see if there was opportunity for us to work more closely together on fluff and some game mechanic issues.

Here are some of the original points of a treaty I thought the Bretonnians would seek. I would urge you to list your own set of stipulations concerning us:

a) Unfettered access to Imperial lands as we fight evil armies.
b) The stationing of our army in Imperial lands as we fight evil armies and the ability to buy supplies from the Empire at a fair price.
c) Coordination with an equal say with the Empire on the direction of Bret-Empire alliance fluff.
d) Coordination with an equal say with the Empire on picking enemies to gear the most battles towards in an effort to lower our opponent's power rating by raising his number of battles fought and battles lost.
e) A NAP with Imperial forces so there are no battles between our factions which could hurt out power rating.

A and B is to allow our forces to move throughout the Empire unimpeded so that we may battle the dark forces in your country. C, D, and E are fluff and game mechanics issues we can work together on as allies to have a mutually beneficial outcome for our two sides.

Of course given GW's fluff for the Bretonnians I am unfortunately forced to ask for the concession of some Imperial land. FVC has already gone over this in detail but I wanted to offer some ideas concerning land that we may discuss further. To be honest I think GW did a pretty shoddy thing by in essence making it so that Brets need land to win and the only land available in campaign is Imperial land. If I could change things I would, as would most Brets it seems but we are being forced to work with the hand GW dealt us. I am personally sorry we even have to discuss this point but it is vital to the Bretonnians since it is our primary GW fluff goal and we don't want to ignore it lest GW be unkind to us fluffwise.

After some thought I decided these would be some early land related concessions I would like to address:

1) I ask the Empire not interfere if Bretonnia tries to take the Marches of Couronne. Furthermore I am personally interested in grabbing as much Marienburg land as possible to offset Imperial losses if GW agrees to this eventually. So furthermore, I also ask that the Empire not interfere should we decide to try and take more Marienburger lands like the areas south of the city or even the Wasteland.
2) I ask that the Empire not interfere if Bretonnia sends forces to the Border Princes in an effort to one day consolidate the territory in an effort to expand our offensive sphere southward towards Settra and the Greenskins. Thus Brets would be in better future positions to strike back at Settra should he pull another stunt like this since we could strike at Khemri from Araby and the Border Princes. Mainly this is to eventually strengthen the reach of crusading forces one day.
3) I ask that Brets be able to establish dual fiefdoms in the great forest wherever Imperial commoners ask Bretonnian knights to protect them during the campaign. This is to make sure such territory remains in some way Imperial should GW decide top reward the Brets at the end of camapign with Imperial lands. That way neither side truly loses. Furthermore, I ask what you would expect of such dual fiefdoms, how do you see them working within the larger Empire and what would they be like internally?
4) I ask that the Empire allow us to have the grey mountains with our new border being just west of Helmgart. This area is rather dangerous and currently almost a no man's land but it could serve to give Brets some territory that the Empire will find less strategically useful than anything in the Great Forest where the campaign happens.
5) Lastly, I wish to cement our alliance with a final act that will show our two countries wish to work together on a permanent basis. To this effect I offered the idea to FVC we ask about a knight elector, which is foolish I have to admit. But I still want to find some way to cement our bonds beyond just a treaty or written alliance. I ask the Empire if you have any ideas of your on that could serve this purpose?

That concludes the points I wished to address in this first offer. I wish to further discuss the terms of this offer and find out what you would require of us to be in an alliance. Thank you for your time and may the Lady bless you and give you victory against our mutual foes.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Otaku on May 28, 2007, 03:10:36 AM
Welcome Lathaine, I am not a grand negotiator but rather a simple sausage vender with love and pride for my homeland. My problem with what you offer is that everything is based on the Empire not losing too much. (speaking to everyone in a loud pasionate voice from the top of the city walls) Has the Empire completely given up on actually gaining something from this campaign? Are we that desperate? Even with the GW fluff as it is I don't think we are that desperate. What do you offer us other than help fighting the bad guys, which Brettonia will be doing anyway? I think a NAP is beneficial to both of us without the need for the Empire to give so much in return for it.

You want...
Land
fiefdoms in the heart of the Empire
free passage anywhere in the Empire
supporting fluff
a NAP deal
assurance that the Empire will let Brettonia expand its enfluance in the Border Princes and elsewhere.
A Night Elector :icon_eek: :icon_eek: :icon_eek: :icon_evil:
redrawing the boarders of the Empire to allow Brettonia greater control (at least on paper)  of the Grew Mountains

You offer the Empire...
supporting fluff (wont we do that anyway?)
a NAP deal (again, thats what an alliance means. Won't we do that anyway?)

I would like to add...
Brettonia agrees to hand over the crown to the Empire should you find it.
Aid us in our fight aginst other good armies such as the Dwarves and Elves should we be FORCED to fight them.
a seat at your round table (do you have one?I dont know your fluff. And why not if you ask for an elector vote)
Assistance fighting Marienburg, giving Brettonia lands south of the City and the Empirial Porvance of Nordland would retain the areas of and north of the city.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Lathaine on May 28, 2007, 04:57:31 AM
Well consider Knight elector dropped, it wasn't a workable idea and FVC did propose that if such a thing did happen an elector Bretonnian duke would have been made. It was just a crazy idea meant to get people thinking about innovative ways to solve the land problem but it didn't seem to pan out in the end.

As for your points:

I will take your recommendations on the crown to my council but I was thinking that endorsing the Empire idea of a council of wise persons would be a good option concerning the crown. It was and is still a good idea and the other races ignored it too quickly In my estimation. This would probably continue with Empire outcry against the GW fluff concerning Karl Franz and the council would almost certainly conclude the crown is evil and reseal or destroy it. However, I doubt that just giving the Empire the crown, no strings attached, will fly with the Bret council but will bring this to the rest of them.

I will take the idea of fighting the Dwarfs if they attack you to our council. There is currently some debate about what to do if that happens, which is likely given GW's fluff and heavy handedness.

Lastly, I see no problem with fighting Marienburg's south if you fight its north. I will take this to our council and it sounds like an excellent idea to take the city's territory from it in a more efficient way. It also means we both gain something from a Marienburg invasion and we can coordinate our fluff much more closely.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Otaku on May 28, 2007, 06:43:04 AM
Like I said, I'm just a sausage vendor. Just eat them mostly. You should talk to the ambassadors before you take anything back to your council. But hey, I got you to drop the Knight Elector. Yeah for me :icon_biggrin:
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: CaptScott on May 28, 2007, 08:09:07 AM
Could somebody please post (either here or in a new topic) how all the known current alliances/relations stand.   Both for us as well as the dwarves, elves, lizzies, etc..

Its really hard to keep up unless you are on all the sites, so if anybody can post such information I'm sure alot of us would appreciate it!
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Ostermarker on May 28, 2007, 08:51:29 AM
I think it would be better if the various alliances were a seperate thread, and then stickied themselves.

On the Wasteland issue, instead of saying north and south (where does north begin and south end? or vice versa) Why not split the wastelands based on the Reik? To the West becomes Imperial land to the East, Bretonnian.

This would leave us to a joint invasion of Marienburg, which could be a later campaign for GW, as it is bisectedby the Reik the above split could be worked. The side connected to the Middenheim road is Imperial and the side connected to the Gisoreux road becomes Bretonnian.

An idea merely, points that have to be thrashed out are most likely in large amounts.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Lathaine on May 28, 2007, 02:20:10 PM
Splitting our territory at the Reik sounds like an excellent idea, I'll let our fluff writers know and we'll start churning out Battle reports about the Marienburg invasion before the Nemesis crown campaign begins.

Also heres some links to alliance threads I know of:

The Asur alliance thread
http://www.asur.org.uk/ulthuan/viewtopic.php?t=21255
Dwarf alliance thread
http://www.bugmansbrewery.com/forum/Our-Allies-In-The-Nemesis-Crown-Campaign-t17264.html
Pyramid Vault Nemesis board with alliance threads interspersed:
http://www.pyramidvault.net/forum/viewforum.php?f=14

Last I checked the alliances were forming like this:
WE were a faction all their own who were gathering NAPs with the good races.
Dwarf alliance is forming with HE, Lizardmen, and Ogres backing them
Empire and Brets are now talking about a potential alliance

Hope all this helps
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Schmeag on May 28, 2007, 02:42:04 PM
Wood Elves at the moment would seem to be moving towards treating both Dwarfs and Men equally, if that's any consolation to you. All this is, of course, said in an unofficial capacity.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Lathaine on May 29, 2007, 04:08:46 AM
I have discussed Brian Lee's points with my council and theses were our conclusions and counter offers:

First, we will formally endorse the idea of a council of the wise to determine what to do with the crown should either of us find it. As Bretonnians we will also seek to be mediators for the good races so that this idea of a council of the wise may be seen as the best way forward for all good races.

Secondly, it was decided we will not openly attack the Dwarfs. However, our council did decide that we will give the Empire fluff help against those that attack you such as scouts, intelligence, and supplies. In addition we will not help the Dwarfs or any of their allies helping them should things come to blows between you and them.

It was also mentioned in our council that Marienburg itself is to the right of the Reik. Because of the serious loot and power seizing the city will give the Empire, I wanted to propose that Bretonnia will secure and administer over the Reik's mouth itself should the Empire march on the city so that our two sides gain roughly equal shares of loot and power.

I hope you find these terms acceptable and will await your response
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: FVC on May 29, 2007, 05:02:31 AM
Why not split the wastelands based on the Reik? To the West becomes Imperial land to the East, Bretonnian.

Just to be pedantic, Bretonnia lies to the west of the Reik, and the Empire to the east. I suspect you mean that Bretonnia should have the west and the Empire the east - otherwise we'd be jumping over each other's territory to get to our own!
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: wissenlander on May 29, 2007, 02:10:49 PM
Welcome Lathaine.  It's good to see you here.  I am in agreeance with the Council of the Wise and the mutual support given.  I too wish that others had listened to this proposal more before rejecting it, but it's the way it is.

I know there has been some outcry against movements against Marienburg by some of our members.  The reason for this is because we felt upset that the Dwarfs were handing over our lands without a care and we didn't want to do the same.  I'm not necessarily saying I'm one of them, but I know there is some of that going on.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Lathaine on May 29, 2007, 03:02:14 PM
Wissenlander, then does that mean your own council has rejected our offer of alliance?

If so, may I ask what points were seen as unworkable and killed the deal then? The Bretonnians are going to drop discussions of the Grey Mountains entirely and just concentrate on Marienburg and dual fiefdoms in regard to land, if that helps anything.

Furthermore, does rejecting this deal mean you will not support us as we march on Marienburg's western lands? Also what does this mean for fluff coordination and a NAP? In essence I am asking whether you have rejected the treaty as a whole or simply some of parts, perhaps we can work together in some way.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Ostermarker on May 29, 2007, 03:12:20 PM
Yes, FVC, that is what I meant.

Wissenlander, in the alliance I believe that this is merely an agreement on what we decide to split allowing the opponent to invade (we're not giving them the land, but merely, saying "We won't stop you invading")


Lathaine, according to my map (from Sold Down the River) Marienburg is on the Reik, practically cut in half by it.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: wissenlander on May 29, 2007, 03:17:26 PM
No no, we haven't rejected the deal by any stretch.  I apologize if I came off that way.

The only thing I find questionable is movements on Marienburg.  We've had certain members disagree with that fervently.  But we've also had some fervently disagree with dual fiefdoms in the Great Forest.

Being as I've been involved mostly with the Bretonnians and gauging what the majority (as I now know it, it could change) want.  This is what I'd say:

Mutual support can be agreed upon.  Movements through the Empire are fine.  Everyone will be moving through here anyway, and your honor will make sure that you won't do anything bad (which I know you guys won't).  

Defense of Imperial lands and citizens with the option of claiming lands offered (in what way I'm not totally sure yet) is fine.

Marienburg issues are up in the air at the moment.  We may be able to work something out (I think what you're talking about sounds good so far, but few have spoken on the issue as of now).  And I actually like the idea of saying, if you want to move on Marienburg we won't do anything to prevent you.  It gives you the right of way without dirtying our hands.

The Grey Mountains is a no, though.  I don't know anyone who would want to give that area away.

Fluff coordination is a big yes as well.  If nothing else can be worked out we can work together in fluff terms.

Sorry for any confusion.  Let me know what you think.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Lathaine on May 29, 2007, 03:31:34 PM
Thank you for explaining Wissenlander.

I believe that your points agree with what has been being discussed so far. In essence it sounds as if the Empire is ready to accept our treaty except we will now take out the grey mountains. However, Marienburg was important, especially at my community which is right now coordinating fluff for a pre campaign invasion of it. IMO invading Marienburg in a joint campaign serves both our interests magnificently and would be a wonderful way to claim new territory for both us of as well as a way to show we are mobilizing pre campaign. However, at the very least would the Empire be willing to not interfere if we invade Marienburg's western half? Bretonnia has fought battles with Marienburg for a long time over the Marches of Couronne and my community wishes to see these battles come to a decisive end.

Also Ostermarker, my map, which is in the Bretonnian army book close up of the area, shows that Marienburg is to the east of the Reik just north of where a tributary breaks off from it. Thus the city is on your side should you decide to invade the Wasteland.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: wissenlander on May 29, 2007, 03:54:12 PM
I find that agreeable.  If you make movements upon Marienburg that is fine with me.  As stated before I really have no issue with it since there has been issues present for some time between you and them and us and them.  But I didn't want to say yes to the whole thing, yet.  The rest I think will be met with a (nearly) resounding yes.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Ostermarker on May 29, 2007, 04:47:41 PM
Those darned moving cities!

Hmm, could it be that its on the mouth? And your map is slightly off?
Or is mine off, and it is off the river?

To other souce material!

Wiki: When the great port city of Marienburg lay within the Empire's borders, it was part of the province of Westerland, at the mouth of the river Reik.

Hive World Terra: Marienburg’s position at the mouth of the Reik means that for goods to reach the Empire from the far south, they must pass through Marienburg, or brave the Sea of Claws to reach Erengrad.

I'm not sure if there's more evidence for Marienburg being off the Reik or not, if you can find some then good on you, I'll try and find more for my point of view.


I think that if we use this as a pre-campaign invasion, we would be out of step when the actual campaign kicks off (especially if GW ignores it).

Although, if a unit does not pursue far, you have the second turn, your army doesn't deploy first etc, then the reason: they were still tired from their march from the invasion of the Wasteland.
Why are they so bad against these Bretonnians (or Empire depending on who you are)? They're unhappy, as they were fighting alongside them at the siege of Marienburg, and so on.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Lathaine on May 29, 2007, 05:35:20 PM
GW does move the city...Marienburg is in the Marches of Couronne in my VC book but the new Empire book has it at the mouth of the Reik just beyond the Reikland on the western side. If the new Empire book is to be believed because of how recently it was put out, that leaves the city on the Bretonnian side, which means the river Reik is yours should we march on the city. Which will not happen considering we are taking the Marches on our way to Settra's army and do not wish to stay and siege the city. That is also why we are gearing for pre campaign fluff on the Marches since we need to get past them to follow Settra in the campaign and Brets wish to take and hold the Marches of Couronne on the way.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Otaku on May 29, 2007, 10:10:34 PM
Marienburg is on the mouth of the Reik according to all the numerous Black Library novels which have taken place there as well as several maps. The Brettonians have asked for ownership of the mouth of the Riek which I feel would be very dangerous for the Empire. If we can agree that the river does run through the city than I suggest we split the city along the lines of the river and share administration of the mouth. The empire can not allow such a major entry way into the Empire to be held by a foreign power with an actual army book. We should either share it or control it completely.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Lathaine on May 29, 2007, 11:42:31 PM
If the city is split between the two sides of the river then I can agree to those concessions.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Veldemere on May 30, 2007, 08:29:06 AM
Is there any need to poll this to make it official? It seems we are all broadly in agreement, not sure how much will happen to Marienberg anyway, for 2 reasons. Firstly it is not in the contested area for the campaign, secondly if GW does eventually make (remake) the naval battle rules they will want an 'independent' port to fight round. Just my thoughts though. I would agree to the NAP and would not take much persuasion to sign a full treaty
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Ostermarker on May 30, 2007, 09:23:37 AM
Although I'm for the siege of Marienburg, I agree with Veldemere, it i highly unlikely GW would allow Marienburg to be taken, what we can do is mention that the soldiers are still tired from a forced march from the siege, and hope that it is mentioned in the sum-up.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: wissenlander on May 30, 2007, 12:55:07 PM
I agree.  I think the main thing the Brets wanted was the Marches though, and not really going to mess with Marienburg (at least right now).  If we didn't want to help out, it would be ok, as long as we promised not to interfere with their plans.  Maybe I'm wrong, but that's what I gathered.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Lathaine on May 30, 2007, 03:48:07 PM
At the Bret council it was decided we would take the Marches and leave the city be for now. However, what you could do is attack the Wastelands while we take the Marches to take back territory. We won't take the city because I doubt GW would allow it and Marienburg shattered a major VC army sieging it and I doubt we'll have that many forces given the search for the crown. However, taking all that hinterland form the city and leaving them just the river and city sounds like something GW might allow especially given the Bret need for land.

Although it has occurred to me we could mention how we will siege the city after the campaign to finish our efforts in our fluff.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Wyzer1 on May 30, 2007, 04:56:01 PM
At the Bret council it was decided we would take the Marches and leave the city be for now. However, what you could do is attack the Wastelands while we take the Marches to take back territory. We won't take the city because I doubt GW would allow it and Marienburg shattered a major VC army sieging it and I doubt we'll have that many forces given the search for the crown. However, taking all that hinterland form the city and leaving them just the river and city sounds like something GW might allow especially given the Bret need for land.

Although it has occurred to me we could mention how we will siege the city after the campaign to finish our efforts in our fluff.
Shouldn't be hard for us to do sieging...

*ring* *ring*
"Hello, this is nulns battery service, makers of the finest cannon batteries around, how may I direct your call"
"Hey, this is the Emperor, I need 200 cannons delivered to the mouth of the reik pronto"
"One moment please"
*Annoying hold music* 
"Ok, they should be there by friday"

Or something like that
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Dendo Star on May 30, 2007, 04:57:19 PM
God bless Nuln.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: clausewitz on May 30, 2007, 05:36:22 PM
I think we are over estimating the manufacturing output of Nuln somewhat.  :lol:

More like -

"Ok, they should be ready for your grandson's reign as Emperor"

Moving back on topic..

I am in agreement with the NAP and Marches agreement with the Bretonnians.  I would also be quite happy to agree places that are on the map for the Brets to defend and subsequently have their best knights be given as a dual-feifdom to rule.

Since those places are actually on the map I think the Brets have a better chance of actually getting some of these (assuming their win ratios meet GWs criteria for sucess).  Both sides can actually mention this in reports, while the Marches and so on can't really be referred to much.  Of course if the Bret council prefers to (IMO) gamble on GWs stances on the Marches, Marienburg etc that is their perogative.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Otaku on May 31, 2007, 06:06:41 PM
I also don't expect GW to change anything with Marienburg but if its in the Brettonian fluff I think it should be in ours as well just in case. And since GW set themselves up for having to redraw maps (Brettonia needs new land from somewhere) than we must consider it at least a possibility. And Id rather the Bretts get Marianburger land then Empire land.  So lets give their advance on the Marches  at least a mention in our fluff saying we support it rather than giving up our own land.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Jerok on June 01, 2007, 12:24:50 AM
Alright... this is getting WAY to hectic.

I'm going to instill some rules right NOW for this thread.

1) No one posts until someone from the original people in the thread (that means Wissenlander and Dendo, and FVC for the Bretts) message me a full avvount of what is being discussed at this moment. All of the terms and asking-fors.

2) Right now we are NOT open to alliances with anyone other than the Bretts. This is because all of our former partners have turned away from us other than our fellow man.
2a) IF we are approached by the HIGH or WOOD Elves we may speak with them, as they are possibilities and for the most part were civil with us
2b) We will NOT under any circumstance being allying with the Dwarfs. They have treated us disrespectfully and have allied themselves with dangerous counterparts. Note: This is only for the duration of the Campaign, we may or may not work with them in the future.

3) Keep this thread completly on topic. Any more posts about silly ideas or 'that shouldn't be to hard' things will be deleted.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Davros on June 07, 2007, 10:55:32 AM
As regard to NAPs  etc . I am in agreement in theory . Has there been  anymore official fluff from GW regarding reaction from the Bretts , Dwarfs etc . on the NC website yet ?  Or all this discussion is just  'what if ' before the site goes live on the 25/6/07 ? It is all very compelling but surely we should wait for the site to go live and see what results are posted for the various regions from the different races and the cordinate a response ie NAPs, battles , fluff etc . But I have been very impressed with all the discourse so far on this subject, much better than I could ever do  .
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: wissenlander on June 07, 2007, 01:38:19 PM
Nothing more has been leaked about fluff.  I don't think there will be anything else until the campaign opens, or at least until official registration starts which is 2 days before hand. 

We can't really wait for discussions until that point because it has taken us well near a month to get where we are at.  To hash out agreements in two days time would be impossible.  I believe that the easiest thing to agree upon was an alliance with the Brets but it got complicated quickly (and I understand the reasoning, so no attacks on anyone).

NAPs will only work in fluff regards.  The campaign is set up to where we can't really help one another.  Whoever has the most wins in the end will control the region and bring you closer to the crown. 

So basically the Dwarfs were telling us (whether they knew it or not) to throw our games so they could grab the crown.  Sorry, a little tangent there.

The fact that GW has stated that they're letting players dictate the fluff means we do have some flexibility in what we can do.  This is where we can make the alliances and agree to support one another.  Basically we do have a NAP with just about every good race, but they're strained in my opinion.  The only solid NAP is with the Brets.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Wyzer1 on June 07, 2007, 03:16:54 PM
So. Basically we are nearly allied with Bretonnia. Wood and High Elves (while unlikely) still remain open, but only if they approach us (and like I said unlikely IMO)

What happened to Lizardmen. Are we still open for negotiations from the Lizardmen, or did that break down to?

All others are a no-go

Just making sure i got some of this right (damn politics...)
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: wissenlander on June 07, 2007, 03:20:18 PM
You've basically hit it, Wyzer.  With the receptions that we got from both sets of good elves, it's up to them to make the next move.  I was hoping that we might be able to work something out with the High Elves, but at most a promise to stay away from each other for as long as possible seems the only outcome, at least right now.

The Lizards haven't been out to play for a while.  Our talks are still open, but they don't have an active rep that will talk with us.  Most of the talk in that thread has between our own members trying to figure out if we want it and what would we want to offer.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Davros on June 07, 2007, 03:31:52 PM
Thanks  wissenlander that has cleared up some confusion for me .
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Dendo Star on June 07, 2007, 03:32:59 PM
The Lizardmen envoy will return to us.  You know how the Slann work, heheh.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: clausewitz on June 07, 2007, 10:08:33 PM
The Lizardmen envoy will return to us.  You know how the Slann work, heheh.
That's just it... we don't know how they work!  :-)
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Veldemere on June 08, 2007, 11:15:22 AM
Just a point of note from the Dwarven forum, there is a discussion about forming a 'Council' to oversee destroying the crown, this will be made up of friendly races....hmmmm......

They say the clear difference is that they are only looking to destroy it. They will be studying how to destroy it, wonder if we will get an invite?

Perhaps they are not as disimilar as first thought, from our mouths to their forum!
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: wissenlander on June 08, 2007, 11:28:18 AM
Yeah, ditto that Veldemere.

Nice to see our idea got snatched up by someone else.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: clausewitz on June 08, 2007, 01:31:10 PM
In case you missed it Veldemere: Giladis (the HE ambassador) mentioned that the Council of the Wise and Powerful* would not be inviting the Empire to send representative(s).

(*as oppossed to our Council of the Wise)

The dwarfs are going well off the track of GW fluff IMO..

Quote
Now, dust rises over the Old Dwarf Road as a vast throng of Dwarfs marches to war, determined to stop those who would meddle in Dwarf business.
But with half the world tagging along to see what they do...

Quote
Thorgrim seeks to recover the Nemesis Crown and lock it away deep beneath Karaz-a-Karak.
Where apparently High Elfs, Slann and Ogres will study how to destroy it..
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Gneisenau on June 08, 2007, 04:23:13 PM
This makes the behaviour of the dwarfs at Bugman's even worse. They have argued that they are so aggressive since the GW fluff requires it, but now they are abandoning the fluff at the first opportunity. Weird, isn't it?

As to the council idea - they say envy is the greatest form of respect. Or getting copied.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: wissenlander on June 08, 2007, 04:25:17 PM
Well, at least they're sticking by the 'Empire attacked them first' fluff. :roll:
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Dendo Star on June 08, 2007, 04:39:16 PM
Then our choice is clear.

School the Dwarfs on what it means to be Oath Breakers.  Shove whatever sharp objects you can into any beardy face you encounter.  Seek out and destroy any Dwarfen army you find in your local game store or other venue of battle.*

Kick the Dwafs' asses.

*Remember, do NOT reflect any actions against Dwarfs or High Elves in fluff.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: clausewitz on June 08, 2007, 09:44:38 PM
This makes the behaviour of the dwarfs at Bugman's even worse. They have argued that they are so aggressive since the GW fluff requires it, but now they are abandoning the fluff at the first opportunity. Weird, isn't it?

As to the council idea - they say envy is the greatest form of respect. Or getting copied.

Indeed the dwarfs have done a few puzzling things in relation to this crown.  Is this actual evidence of the Nemesis Crown's evil power?  :-o

IMO they are taking a big risk.  By writing fluff that clashes with GW's plans they risk being vetoed by the powers that be.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Patch on June 13, 2007, 10:29:26 AM
Is this actual evidence of the Nemesis Crown's evil power?  :-o

IMO they are taking a big risk.  By writing fluff that clashes with GW's plans they risk being vetoed by the powers that be.
Darned things made of warpstone - even our best wizards won't touch that stuff without the REALLY thick gauntlets and the REALLY long tongs, and the dwarfs make it so they can stick it on your HEAD? Does not sound like a good idea to me.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: clausewitz on June 13, 2007, 03:30:43 PM
Is this actual evidence of the Nemesis Crown's evil power?  :-o

IMO they are taking a big risk.  By writing fluff that clashes with GW's plans they risk being vetoed by the powers that be.
Darned things made of warpstone - even our best wizards won't touch that stuff without the REALLY thick gauntlets and the REALLY long tongs, and the dwarfs make it so they can stick it on your HEAD? Does not sound like a good idea to me.

Some people would make reference to the thickness of dwarf skulls/heads..

I wouldn't of course... because thickskull was in bloodbowl  :-)
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: wissenlander on June 13, 2007, 03:34:48 PM
The question is, does the Emperor know it's made of warpstone?  He knows it's a crown and we have the benefit of having a broader perspective as players.  But IC Imperials may not know what the heck is going on, which has been one of my points as an ambassador to other forums.  It's easy for the Dwarfs or Elves to say how evil it is, but when one doesn't know what it really is (officially) we have every reason to go searching for it and trying to harness it's power for good.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Wyzer1 on June 13, 2007, 04:56:34 PM
Good point. And hey, maybe the warpstone crown isn't such a bad thing afterall... Who ever said Warpstone corrupted anything? *nervous glance at skaven player*

What are the odds we find it anyways? Seems pretty lousy to be honest....
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: wissenlander on June 13, 2007, 05:01:38 PM
The more wins, the more likely we are to take it.  Unless some sneaky skaven or night goblin snatches it out of someone's hand.  Most seem to think that one of the big three will win it, and we're one of the big three!  GW might want to throw a loop in there and give it to someone else...
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: clausewitz on June 13, 2007, 05:36:32 PM
I'll probably get lynched for saying this... but I think the dwarfs will be favourites to get the most wins.

Not that they are a better army than Empire or O&G, but for novice players they are easier to play.  And I fear that the numbers may favour the hordes of novices playing each other over more experienced players.*

(* If GW sells 50,000 Helstorm Rocket Batterys in the next month I will change my prediction to Empire  :-P )
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Wyzer1 on June 13, 2007, 06:27:06 PM
I'll probably get lynched for saying this... but I think the dwarfs will be favourites to get the most wins.

Not that they are a better army than Empire or O&G, but for novice players they are easier to play.  And I fear that the numbers may favour the hordes of novices playing each other over more experienced players.*

(* If GW sells 50,000 Helstorm Rocket Batterys in the next month I will change my prediction to Empire  :-P )
By your post I assume you weren't advocating the dwarves, merely saying they will win? Assuming so, then we might not lynch you...

I honestly have to agree with you that dwarves are one of the "easier" races to play, which will probably lend a lot to them winning. Like many other forum members I have taken up arms against them though, and hopefully the combined umph of our small forum will be enough to stop dwarf players in there tracks.

Really, the reason they will win is because of the plethora of new players who start by buying the battle for skull pass box, then the dwarves romp the gobbos, then they report. Thats the way I see it, but hey I have been wrong before

Either way I am going out of my way to beat on our local dwarf players, starting tonight....
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Gneisenau on June 13, 2007, 08:58:27 PM
I'll probably get lynched for saying this... but I think the dwarfs will be favourites to get the most wins.

Not that they are a better army than Empire or O&G, but for novice players they are easier to play.  And I fear that the numbers may favour the hordes of novices playing each other over more experienced players.*

(* If GW sells 50,000 Helstorm Rocket Batterys in the next month I will change my prediction to Empire  :-P )

That's what I've been dreading as well - that it comes down to "who has the most powerfull armybook".

But look at the bright side: If every race is able to find the crown, not just the three protagonists, then the brets do have a good chance, and the High Elves a very slim.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: MiB on June 13, 2007, 11:13:31 PM
I've done my best but I cant seem to prod the TK forum along to actually *doing* something regarding fluff or objectives from the campaign

However if someone with a Warvault account could please get them to change the link in this (http://www.warvault.net/nemesis/viewtopic.php?t=40) topic to this one (http://z4.invisionfree.com/Khemri/index.php?showtopic=5235), there should be at least 2 characters for people to go up against or name in their reports
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: clausewitz on June 14, 2007, 12:15:54 AM
By your post I assume you weren't advocating the dwarves, merely saying they will win? Assuming so, then we might not lynch you...
Absolutely.  I certainly don't want them to win, I'm all for the Empire.  Just, as you say, I think they are possibly favourites out of the "big 3" for the NC.
Quote
I honestly have to agree with you that dwarves are one of the "easier" races to play, which will probably lend a lot to them winning. Like many other forum members I have taken up arms against them though, and hopefully the combined umph of our small forum will be enough to stop dwarf players in there tracks.

Really, the reason they will win is because of the plethora of new players who start by buying the battle for skull pass box, then the dwarves romp the gobbos, then they report. Thats the way I see it, but hey I have been wrong before
Thats exactly what I fear.  In my area skull pass caused a surge in novice dwarf players.
Quote
Either way I am going out of my way to beat on our local dwarf players, starting tonight....
Good luck :)

Quote
That's what I've been dreading as well - that it comes down to "who has the most powerfull armybook".

But look at the bright side: If every race is able to find the crown, not just the three protagonists, then the brets do have a good chance, and the High Elves a very slim.
Somewhat.  I think it applies more to novice players.  IMO once people are beyond a certain stage its the better player that tends to win (with the usual element of fortune).

If the NC can be claimed by a faction outside the big three then I suppose one might guess that it would be one of the "usual" top 5 (WE, Brets, Skaven, LM, VC).  I'd say the NEB gives the Empire a decent chance on balance though.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Lord Alexander on June 27, 2007, 07:28:23 PM
You know what GW has already done the ending before the campaign was even launched. Thay don't care who has more wins and I'm sure that the crown will be destroyed or lost as not to disturb the current order of the world we know.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Dendo Star on June 27, 2007, 07:31:07 PM
True, mostly.

Things like the Skaven Doomsphere and Grimgor besting Archy-boy were written during the Storm Of Chaos by the fan communtiy after all.  And those were/are important events!
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: MiB on June 27, 2007, 10:36:22 PM
I've just noticed that there is no DoW or even Chaos Dwarf option in reporting battles, do you reckon we can bombard GW with requests to change this?
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Erwin Moltz on June 28, 2007, 01:43:04 AM
Ive read the first 3 pages of the thread and the last 3 this is what i got so far (please correct me if I'm wrong).

An alliance with the dwarfs if completely out of the question and hostility toward them is encouraged.

We are leaning toward an alliance with the bretts.

we don't trust the high elves and an alliance or non-aggression pact with the wood elves has not been ruled out.

we don't wont to work with lizard men.

Ogres have not been ruled out as an alliance. 

i just wanted to make sure all my data was accurate before i put my two cents in.

(once again please correct me if I'm wrong)
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Dendo Star on June 28, 2007, 01:53:24 AM
Actually, check the Sticky below this labeled below this labeled "Alliances, Diplomatic Relations, etc."  It should answer most of your questions.

Welcome aboard lads!
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Erwin Moltz on June 28, 2007, 02:23:38 AM
As much as a distrust the Brett's i will not be hostile toward them.

i will kill every stunty i see.


As far as the wood elves are concerned i do not trust them at all. They simple don't care about anyones reasons for entering the great forest (which i do not recognize as wood elf territory). They are too arrogant or foolish to care that we are trying to destroy the corrupt crown and stop any evil force from recovering it
(which would be disastrous for every one!).  They will only interfere with the forces of light on the grounds that we are "trespassing" in the forest that BELONGS TO US! This is why i say the wood elves should not be trusted and that hostility toward them (which i strongly advise) needs to be considered.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Dendo Star on June 28, 2007, 02:38:18 AM
As much as a distrust the Brett's i will not be hostile toward them.

i will kill every stunty i see.


As far as the wood elves are concerned i do not trust them at all. They simple don't care about anyones reasons for entering the great forest (which i do not recognize as wood elf territory). They are too arrogant or foolish to care that we are trying to destroy the corrupt crown and stop any evil force from recovering it
(which would be disastrous for every one!).  They will only interfere with the forces of light on the grounds that we are "trespassing" in the forest that BELONGS TO US! This is why i say the wood elves should not be trusted and that hostility toward them (which i strongly advise) needs to be considered.

I warn you.  Anyone who does not respecting the domain of Athel Loren and the Guardians within does so at their own peril!  :ph34r:
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Erwin Moltz on June 28, 2007, 02:42:29 AM
I never claimed that the forest of lorn was empire territory, i said that we own the great forest and that they cant call us trespassers for fighting in the great forest. If we entered the lorn forest THAT would be trespassing.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Dendo Star on June 28, 2007, 02:47:40 AM
I am more toward a policy that placates the Wood Elves.  They may yet come to our side. 

We must also remember, it is generally the grim and nigh-insane Forest Spirits that claim the most innocent lives of forest "tresspassers".
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Erwin Moltz on June 28, 2007, 02:52:36 AM
"We must also remember, it is generally the grim and nigh-insane Forest Spirits that claim the most innocent lives of forest "trespassers"."


The fact that the wood elves generally follow the example of the tree mutants does not make me want to kill them any less.
Title: Re: Foreign Ministry
Post by: Dendo Star on June 28, 2007, 01:35:51 PM
I see the Bretonnians are presently at #1.  Alright Bretts!