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The General Archive => Empire Army Book 8th Edition => Topic started by: osterknact on September 29, 2010, 05:32:47 AM

Title: Provincal Traits & The Flavour System
Post by: osterknact on September 29, 2010, 05:32:47 AM
hi all been reading some of the ideas in this forum and some of the stuff blew me away.  I want to expand on - and more importantly link - some of the ideas ie. Schola Bellator (Engineer School - think vampiric powers), along with possibly an SM style trait system for Knightly Orders and a new "flavour system" for every province. additionally DOW & new empire units are also on the agenda.

The Empire's real appeal and strength is the fact that in a fantasy world -  men with S3 and I3 - can be victorious by combining all their diverse training and skills. The key is diversity - the current empire army book allows us to do that but with no real incentive or bonuses for leaving behind powerful units such as Stanks and Arch Lectors for the sake of fluff.

The "Flavour System" that I'm tossing around has 4 characteristics applied to each province, in relation to:
For Example - The Characteristics of Ostermark:
1.Economy - Poor
2.Population - Low
3.Religion - Morr
4.Location - North
each of these characteristics unlocks traits not unlike Space Marine chapter traits. But whereas SM traits were optional, here the disadvantages are not. 2-3 disadvantages must be selected... from any of the above characteristics. eg. a Poor traits is; Few Relics 0-1 magic items for each character (Michael W).

For each disadvantage you unlock an advantage a one to one tradeoff.

The following is a table of each provinces characteristics (some of these are ?able - if you feel something doesnt fit let me know):
 
                           Economy         Population          Location          Religion
Reikland              Rich                 Many                   South             Sigmar
Wissenland          Rich?               Few?                   South             Sigmar?               
Averland              Rich                 Many                   South             Sigmar/Myrmidia
Stirland                Poor                Many                   South             Sigmar/Morr     
Talabecland         Poor                Few                      South             Ulrick/Taal    north/south line
Hochland              Poor?              Few?                    North             Taal/Rhya
Middenland           Rich?              Many                    North             Ulric                       
Nordland              Poor?              Many?                   North             Maanan                   
Ostland                Poor                Few                      North             Sigmar                           
Ostermark            Poor                Few                      North             Morr


Altdorf                 Rich                Many                     South             Sigmar
Nuln                    Rich                Many                     South             ?
Middenheim          Rich                Many                     North             Ulric
Talabheim            Rich                 Many                     North            Ulric

Economy Characteristic - Poor

Economy Characteristic - Rich
Location Characteristic - North

Location Characteristic - South

Population Characteristic - Few

Population Characteristic - Many
Religion Characteristic - x
* Sigmar
* Ulric
* Morr
* Myrmidia
* Taal
* Rhya
* Maanan
* Verenea+

? - okay so a signature prayer for each different religion + advantage and disadvantage for province as a whole. all provinces have access to Sigmar warrior priests - as shown in army book. However, provinces where Sigmar's faith is particularly strong notice that their prayers have greater effect.
(what do you guys think?)

Army Focus Characteristic - x
*The following is a list of WIP focuses; Holy Mission (w.priest army), Crusade (ie.foot knights), Engineers, Imperial Venture? -not sure about this one (karl franz and special characters), Hit and Run (Skirmishers), Gunline(blackpowder), 'Glorius Charge' (Cavalry) & 'Stand and Fight' (CC units) [/li]






if anyone has any suggestions/ideas on the system greatly appreciated.
sources & inspiration:
http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=4416.0 - Guide to the Imperial Provinces
http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=19151.0 - Provincial Traits* by Michael W
http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=28852.25 - search in post for Schola Bellator
http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=28528.0 - The value of weapons and training
http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=19226.0 - Characters for next book
http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=30341.0 - Education
http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=30799.0 - General and Captain: Imperial Doctrines
http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=34419.0 - Guide to the Empire*
http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=29639.0 - The Empire 7.5 Supplement

Title: Re: WIP: Province "Flavour System" linked to Knightly Order Traits, Engineer 8.0
Post by: osterknact on September 30, 2010, 12:03:42 AM
anybody? need some help coming up with ideas for advantages/disadvantages for a large population? the one I can think of right now is 'not enough to go around' along those lines but doesnt really fit? any help who be great
- also how do you make a table in this txt document? been trying but cant get it to work

??? - Questions about certain provinces and their characteristics. Im not sure about how to place some of these.
Nordland - Rich or Poor, Few or Many
Wissenland - Rich or Poor, Few or Many, Religion?
Talabecland - Rich or Poor, Few or Many
Hochland - Rich or Poor, Few or Many
Middenland - Rich or Poor, Few or Many

thanks ill be shortly psting ill the provinces characteristics which will be open for discussion... the ? need answering

                          Economy          Population          Location          Religion
Reikland               Rich                 Many                 South             Sigmar
Wissenland           ?                     ?                       South             ?               
Averland              Rich                 Many                  South             Sigmar/Myrmidia                           
Stirland                Poor                Many                  South            Sigmar/Morr                             
Talabecland           ?                     ?                       North             Ulric/Taal                       
Hochland              ?                     ?                        North             Taal/Rhya                               
Middenland           ?                     ?                        North             Ulric                       
Nordland              ?                     ?                        North             Maana                   
Ostland                Poor                Few                    North             Sigmar                           
Ostermark            Poor                Few                    North             Morr                               
Title: Re: WIP: Province "Flavour System" linked to Knightly Order Traits, Engineer 8.0
Post by: Prince_RothGaad on September 30, 2010, 04:45:06 AM
Very nice, this sounds full of potential, possably even could be used to fluff out a empire based BordePrince's Barony and such.

An example,
You could make a list to represent Stirland= poor, low population, little or no black powder units, very religouse. A few tweeks here and there and you have a list that would perfectly fit many barony in the Borderlands OR set up a list to represent Averland and a little imagination you've got a Tilian merchant prince setting up shop in the Borders' to start making profits from the local resources', bringing along a large force of supersticiouse Tilian mercenaries to protect his little enterprise.

Again lots of potential and very impressive :eusa_clap: :eusa_clap: :eusa_clap:
 :::cheers:::
Title: Re: WIP: Province "Flavour System" linked to Knightly Order Traits, Engineer 8.0
Post by: osterknact on September 30, 2010, 04:06:10 PM
thanks for replying could you think of any characteristics i missed that could be used to further this theme?
Title: Re: WIP: Province "Flavour System" linked to Knightly Order Traits, Engineer 8.0
Post by: Prince_RothGaad on September 30, 2010, 06:32:06 PM
Not at all. Nothing of real detail comes to mind at the moment.
But I must say that it would need to incorparate enough flexability to make fun fluffy lists.
Title: Re: WIP: Province "Flavour System" linked to Knightly Order Traits, Engineer 8.0
Post by: Prince_RothGaad on September 30, 2010, 06:49:37 PM
An idea just struck, it may not be worth anything but reading through the last edition codex for IG, mainly the doctrines, but what I've noticed is that some of the Doctrines would work well for an Empire version. I will consider this more and may even start a seperate thread, and hopefully see if I can come up with something that will be of use for you.
Title: Re: WIP: Province "Flavour System" linked to Knightly Order Traits, Engineer 8.0
Post by: osterknact on September 30, 2010, 07:17:30 PM
thatd be great i dont have the IG codex but it would be great to understand the system might generate some good ideas
* I really need some traits for population especially 'Many' = what are the dis/advantages of a large population...
Title: Re: WIP: Province "Flavour System" linked to Knightly Order Traits, Engineer 8.0
Post by: Prince_RothGaad on September 30, 2010, 07:48:22 PM
Quickly thinking about it this is what I would think(in general).
Advantages;
*large population= large intake of draftees when needed
                           enough men for standing garrisons' (state/militia)
                           (may add more to this)
Disadvantages;
                         plenty of misfits/brigands/organised crime
                         unless wealthy some/all resources would run low/run out
                          possability of rebelion.

appologies for nothing specific but thats all I can think of right now.
Title: Re: Province Trait 'Flavour System'
Post by: Gneisenau on September 30, 2010, 08:17:56 PM
I have only glanced over it, but you clearly made some effort, and I think it is a very good idea! Especially for campaigns. :-)
Title: Re: Province Trait 'Flavour System'
Post by: Prince_RothGaad on September 30, 2010, 08:26:54 PM
Agreed, we could have done with sometning like this for the Solland Effort last year
(I missed doing that :icon_cry:)
Title: Re: Province Trait 'Flavour System'
Post by: Sigurd Rose on October 04, 2010, 05:29:20 PM
Excelllent alternative rules osterknact. Fantastic job.

I dont really have time to help add to them rigth now, but I will get back to you soon.

Keep up the good work.
Title: Re: Province Trait 'Flavour System'
Post by: Zygmund on October 04, 2010, 06:14:50 PM
osterknact, pm me your e-mail, and I'll send you an army list I wrote for Stirland the other day.

I see we think similarly on some points. Perhaps the army list helps you to flesh out Stirland.

As for the advantages and disadvantages of a large population... I think we should approach the question theoretically, with some historical anecdotes. Here are some things to consider:

1. Every pre-industrial state wanted to have large populations, especially because of recruits for their armies. In this sense, small population is only a disadvantage. There's nothing to gain from a small population. (Anecdote: when a 17th century Swedish king finally had a very thorough census in front of him, he was superbly dissappointed because of the small population of his realm. In addition, the census was kept secret, because the Swedish were afraid their enemies would attack them knowing how weak the realm was.)

2. However, there's a limit to population: food. If the population is too large to be fed, people either need to migrate or starve to death. Usually, the adventurous poor migrate and the non-adventurous poor die. The elites, the middle classes, and the well-off farmers have the judicial system to protect their possessions, and will grab arms (ar call the military) to protect them, if the poor try to eat what is not righfully theirs. Popular unrest is a bad thing for any state. Thus grain supply became early on one of the main concerns of pre-industrial rulers. (Which doesn't mean they did any good to secure it.)

Now, we need to decide if the Empire is approaching its limits of population, or if the Empire perhaps still has room within the provincial borders to found new villages and colonise virgin lands. The existence of the vast forests makes it quite clear the Empire could do the latter. The existence of crowded cities suggests that at least in some regions people don't think colonisation could give them better life. This is of course the result of the chaos and greenskins etc. in the forests. The balance of danger is different than in early modern Europe. We need to ask, how much must be invested in a colony so that it will become secure and start producing something for the greater good (i.e. men can be enlisted and taken away from the colony without the colony becoming so weak that beastmen and goblins destroy it).

This, I believe, might hint to an altogether different effect the population might have on enlistment. Here are the options:

Colonists: the state is actively tied into a colonisation project, and this is reflected in the enlisting options. The new colonists need protection, and cannot be marched away from their homes without endangering the whole prospect of the colonisation project.
Advantage: Local Militia. The army gets one Militia Command Group for free. However, it must include at least one Militia contingent that is not a detachment, but a real independent unit.
Disadvantage: Dispersed Garrisons. The State Troops have a maximum unit size, perhaps 30. (Although this might be eased a bit by stating that one State Troop contingent has no limits.)

Urban Poor: the state is not taking care of its excess population, and so the poor gather in the cities. This opens good prospects for enlistment, but on the other hand, the cities need to be heavily policed also in wartime, tying up trained men.
Advantage/disadvantage: Cheap Militia. The army may buy Militia at a cost of 4 pts per model. (CG still costs normal.) However, the militia can never operate as detachments.
Disadvantage: Limited Detachments. The army may include max. one detachment per one unit of State Troops. This means that a State Troop contingent may still have two detachments, but for every State Troop contingent with two detachments, there must be a State Troop contingent with no detachments at all. (They're policing the cities.)

Of course, the third option is none of the above, in which case the province plays along the normal rules.

As of which province is in which state, I don't know. I guess Reikland could have Urban Poor while Middenheim/land has colonists and e.g. Stirland has no advantages or disadvantages in this respect (census).

I think this would be a fluffy way to incorporate some familiar themes from RW history.

-Z
Title: Re: Province Trait 'Flavour System'
Post by: osterknact on October 05, 2010, 05:19:37 AM
thanks zygmund great stuff there would love to discuss it more...  what are your thoughts on the trait system should each disadvantage be linked to an advantage? i was considering this but also wanted to have as much customization as possible
Title: Re: Province Trait 'Flavour System'
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on October 05, 2010, 03:17:30 PM
Lots of stuff but too much for a single army book

I would be happy with a flavour rare choice for each province

choose province get

Averland - Halflings

Ostland - Ogres

Middenheim - Wolfkin

Reikland - Reiksguard

Nuln - greater great cannon

Stirland - toothless peasants

Hochland - Jägers

etc. etc. etc.

done.
Title: Re: Province Trait 'Flavour System'
Post by: osterknact on October 05, 2010, 03:49:35 PM
i can see how there would be an argument for less stuff in army books but i think that adding 5 - 6 pages into the army book should not be the reason that this level of customization is dismissed.
Title: Re: Province Trait 'Flavour System'
Post by: Zygmund on October 05, 2010, 04:41:02 PM
thanks zygmund great stuff there would love to discuss it more...  what are your thoughts on the trait system should each disadvantage be linked to an advantage? i was considering this but also wanted to have as much customization as possible

In my own hobby, I prefer room for customization. However, if you hope to "sell" your idea to a broader public, you probably need to make a nice and easy package. This means ready thought-out advantage-disadvantage pairs, or perhaps a ready-made list of 'always on' advantages and disadvantages for each Province.

Thus, the question is not so much what my thoughts are, but what is your goal in general: fun for yourself and a couple of friends, or a broader movement towards fluff.

I'm always making my own adjustments in the end. Thus what you have ready now actually is all I'll need.

And then, of course, none of the Provinces are 'written in stone' to a degree that you couldn't argue for or against some advantages and disadvantages.  And even if you produce a widely accepted, balanced whole, a new Empire book from GW might shatter it overnight. This is, I believe, the reason why the creator of 'A is for Altdorf...' is happy with the 'product' as is: it's informative and flexible enough to be usable over edition changes, and to all interested.

-Z
Title: Re: Province Trait 'Flavour System'
Post by: osterknact on October 05, 2010, 05:33:16 PM
Zygmund - eventually i hope this to be something which would be considered by everyone to be something that could be included in the 8th Empire Army Book. I realized at the moment it is far to cluttered and needs much more work before it reaches this stage i hope that some members will help contribute their ideas to improving the system.
Title: Re: Province Trait 'Flavour System'
Post by: Zygmund on October 05, 2010, 06:05:07 PM
Right. :)

In such a case, I'd simplify things a lot.

1) Max three special rules for each Province. Two might be better still. Even one special rule for each Province would be enough to breath life into the Province fluff and make the province interesting.

2) Minimum overlap of rules from Province to Province. It would be best if each Province had a unique (set of) special rule(s).

3) Instinctive and clear special rules. So that the reader doesn't need to deeply understand the environmental, social or technical undercurrents determining the Province special rules.

4) Avoid special rules that only add colour: make each rule count.

5) Keep game balance in mind: no overkill rules.

6) Always allow the basic list for all Provinces. (Most of the players, even if they find the fluff fun, will want to create Empire lists along the general lines of other armies, with similar freedom and simplicity.)

This is not an easy task.

I'm sorry I don't have the time to go through the ideas now. I think you already have good advice in a couple of replies above. I do agree with the comments you've received thus far. My ideas, I believe, are a bit too complicated to be included in this project.

The best of luck for your project. It's definitely the funniest and fluffiest I've seen concerning the rules! :)

-Z