Warhammer-Empire.com

Hi, all fans of steadfast discussions.

The new FAQ was a great clarification!
EDIT
Summary here telling the interpretation of the new erratum, with its variants.


Empire's ERRATUM
Page 30 –Army Special Rules, Detachments.
Add the following after the second paragraph:
‘Whether or not a Detachment is Steadfast is determined by their Regimental unit.
This means that if a Regimental Unit is
either not engaged in combat itself,
or is engaged in combat and is Steadfast,
then all of its detachments are Steadfast, even if fighting an enemy with more ranks.
If the Regimental Unit is engaged in combat and is not Steadfast,
then none of its detachments can be Steadfast, even if fighting an enemy with less ranks.

WH BRB ERRATUM:
Page 54 – Loser Takes a Break Test, Steadfast.
Change the first paragraph to read “If a defeated unit has more ranks than its enemy,
it takes a Break test without applying the difference in the combat result scores.
You should include the front rank for the purposes of determining whether or not a unit is steadfast.”
Change the fourth paragraph to read “Steadfast units don’t apply the difference in combat result scores to Break tests.”

Other useful quotes:
AB, p.30
" Regiments and Detachments act together and are affected by the same psychology in combat.
If a Regimental Unit has any of the special rules below,
they confer the same special rule onto all of their Detachments,
whilst they have at least one model within 3”
(special rules analysis by Noght)
- Frenzy (only available to Empire via mystical Terrain effects)
- Hatred (WP and War Altar)
- Hold the Line (GotE/Capt. in the Regiment)
- Immune to Psychology (only available to the Empire via Marius failed stupidity test)
- Stubborn (Greatsword Detachment, Magic Item, Terrain effects)
- Steadfast (BRB pg 54, Terrain effects)
- Stupidity (see ITP above)"

BRB p.54. "Simply put, a unit is considered to be steadfast if it has more ranks than its enemy.”

 BRB p.11: AB>BRB whenever "On rare occasions, a conflict will arise between a rule in this rulebook and one printed in a WH AB. Where this occurs, the rule printed in the WH AB always takes precedence".

BRB p.10 Sequencing: "When () the wording is not explicit as to which rule is resolved first, then the player whose turn it is chooses the order."

1. Despite being much more clear than previously, there's still room for discussion.

if the parent unit has only 1 model left, if it's unengaged, the detatchements are steadfast.

You still need a single rank of 5 models, the BRB confirmed that in magenta also.

I don't see that.

So? Is it one model, or one rank which is necessary when the parent is not in a fight?

Do we have to read the new rule " if a Regimental Unit is not engaged in combat itself" as self-sufficient, therefore one model is enough,
or do we have to assume in addition that the regiment must be steadfast in the first place (therefore accepting that steadfast remains out of combat)?


2. What happens when a parent unit is in a building?
- zero rank, per FAQ,
- "always" steadfast (BRB p.129).
So? detachment steadfast or not?


3. What happens when a non-fighting parent unit is in a river/wood?
- cannot be steadfast
- has its ranks (or has one model, for those interested).
So? detachment steadfast or not?


4. What happens when a parent is steadfast for any reason, and the detachment is in a river/wood?
- steadfast per new rule
- but denied steadfast per river.
So? detachment steadfast or not?


5. What happens when a parent is denied steadfast, and the detachment is stubborn? Or in a building?
- always steadfast
- but denied steafast per new rule.
So? detachment steadfast or not?

I'd like not to spoil the couple of threads about the new FAQ generally speaking.
So here's the space to talk about steadfast, for you (and me) hard core rule lawyers! 

References:
steadfast detachments unofficial confirmation (10 pages thread, before FAQ)
Sharing steadfast (23 pages thread, before FAQ) and a summary of all definitions here
New faq & errata for empire comming up (mostly wishes, kept alive when FAQ arrived)
BRB FAQ up (newest thread about FAQ)

EDIT: jump directly to the summary => here

FAQ:
Q: If a Detachment has lost a combat, can it claim the Steadfast special rule for its Regimental Unit’s ranks even if that unit is either not in the same combat or is involved in another combat? (p30)
A: Yes.
Always use the Regimental Unit’s ranks to determine whether or not its Detachments are Steadfast.
However, if a Regimental Unit is involved in a separate combat in which it is not Steadfast due to the number of enemy ranks, then its Detachments are not Steadfast either, even if the Regimental unit has more ranks than the enemy unit actually attacking its Detachment.


Here are some understanding which I can make mine (with my changes in red):

So, the logical progression to determine who has steadfast goes like this;

Count parent ranks (call P)
Count ranks of enemy fighting parent (call E) (if any)
If E is greater than P, detachment does NOT have steadfast. End.
Count ranks of enemy fighting detachment (call e)
If P is greater than e, detachment has steadfast. End.
Else, detachment does not have steadfast. End.

If the Detachment is within 3" of Parent you have to count the ranks of the parent to determine if the detachment is steadfast.  The Parent does not have to be in the same combat or in combat at all.  The exception is if the Parent is in combat with an enemy with more ranks than the Parent (so denying the Parent unit steadfast) then you cannot use the Parents ranks, even though it may still be more than what the detachment is fighting.

The debate seems pretty closed on those cases.
I see no need for parent to be in melee at all indeed.


There are some situations not covered by the FAQ, where the AB/BRB ruling still apply and the FAQ is irrelevant:

When the parent is stubborn, then the detachment is stubborn regardless anything else:
- parent has "stubborn" special rule => detachment is stubborn
- parent is joined by "crowned" character => parent is stubborn => detachment is stubborn
- parent is in a building => parent is always stubborn, despite not having ranks => detachment is stubborn
- skirmisher parent is in a wood  => parent is always stubborn => detachment is stubborn

On that part, we could resume the heated debate about whether steadfast lasts permanently or not.
However, as nothing has changed with the last FAQ, it is not useful to rephrase the arguments.
I'd suggest just to refer to the links above and not to argue about that very specific issue.


When detachments are steadfast on their own merit, I believe that the BRB is clear enough, regardless about what happens with parent regiment.
Of course, this could be debated.
- detachment is joined by "crowned" character => detachment is stubborn
- detachment is in a building => detachment is stubborn
- skirmisher detachment is in a wood  => detachment is stubborn


On the other hand, there are cases which seem to be covered by the FAQ, but which could be debated.
This is when the parent unit has more ranks indeed, but has lost stubborness for other reasons than being in combat against an enemy with even more ranks.
What happens when the parent is in a river => never stubborn, regardless of ranks =>
1- use parent's rank anyway, as per FAQ RAW.
2- FAQ shouldn't be used, detachment could be stubborn on its own merit, i.e. using its own ranks
3- detachment can't be stubborn because parent has lost its stubborn ability, per FAQ RAI.
Personally, I'd be tempted to say that 1 is RAW but 2 is more reasonable. That's just an opinion.



Soooo?
What is your opinion?

There have been some analysis about individual units’ merits.
Empire Complete Tactica part 1:
http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=42301.0
Empire Complete Tactica Part 2:
http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=42308.0
What everyones 8th edition Empire army will look like.
http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=42174.0
And the evaluation after 3 months.
http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=43532.msg736036#msg736036

Here, I’d like to examine here the feeling of the army as a whole.

Please note that I don’t pretend to have extensive experience playing WHFB. I spend much more time analyzing than playing.
However, my analysis on Druchii.net have been met with interest, I hope that W-E readers will benefit from them as well.

There are other articles which have great interest as well:
The Tao of the Empire
Essential Tactical Manoeuvres


1.   Generic categories.
First, I’ll classify units in broad generic categories:
-   Melee units (infantry, heavy cavalry, STank).
-   Buffing units: most characters, buff wagons.
-   Warmachines + spells damaging at long distance.
-   Agile units (fast cavalry, skirmishers, flyers, sacrificial units).
-   BS shooters + spells damaging at short distance.

I attribute more or less the same categories for the opponent. Of course, we’re not playing only Empire vs Empire, but the generic categories should be more or less the same, with slight adjustments.

Next, I specify what can threaten some specific units, which are either too large or too agile, and what threatens characters hidden inside a unit.


1.1.   Melee units.
Infantry units absorb damage and provide ranks (buses, hordes). Most infantry units need buffing to avoid losing morale and to increase their fighting effectiveness. 
They are Halberdiers, Spearmen, Swordsmen, Free Company, Greatswords, Flagellants.

Heavy cavalry units escape damage thanks to the armor. They kill more than infantry, but may lack staying power.
They are Knightly Orders, Inner Circle Knights, Reiksguard Knights, Demigryph Knights, Steam Tank. I include also the Templar Grand Master, which main role is similar.

Melee units are likely to do most of the damage to the opponent, and to receive most of the damage.
Therefore, survivability and killing potential need to be the best you can get.

Melee has many flavours.
It could be made with large units (hordes or buses) or many small units (MSU).
EDIT: see can someone please explain how Empire MSU works?
It could be based on infantry, on cavalry, or a mix. Monsters ridden by mighty characters add another dimension.
These choices influence dramatically the army.


1.2.   Buffing units.
They allow melee units to be more efficient, in complement to command group and magic banners.
Some units influence mostly Leadership tests, especially as General and BSB:
-   General of The Empire, Captain of The Empire.
Some units provide permanent fighting buffs, and/or require powerdice for more buffs:
-   Arch Lector, Warrior Priest,
-   War Altar of Sigmar, Celestial Hurricanum, Luminark of Hysh,
-   Wizard Lord, Battle Wizard (with buffs & hexes, all Lores except Fire).

These units are normally not expected to do that much direct damage, however they are paramount to allow melee units to inflict effective damage and to resist the damage they receive.

They are always extremely high on the target priority of the opponent: not only they are worth many victory points, but moreover, when they are gone, the melee units are far easier to handle.

As they role is to buff, they should be geared defensively in order to fulfill their duty longer. They should be placed as far as possible from direct risk (melee, shooting).
However, they need to move along with the battle line in order to keep buffing it, so they are quite likely to find themselves in melee sooner than they wish. With the exceptions of Metal/Shadows/Heavens spell casters, who may safely follow the battle at 48”/36”/24”.


1.3.   Warmachines.
They kill far (48” or further) and they kill hard or massively. They are the best to threaten buffing units remaining in the back lines. However, they are vulnerable to very modest units in melee.
They are Helstorm, Mortar, Cannon (including STank’s), along with the Engineer who improves their performance.
Many spells have a similar range, be them magic missiles, direct damage, vortexes or damaging hexes. Especially Fire, Light, and, with a bit of luck, Heavens, which all have a typical range of 48” (plus move). They lack the sniping capability of some warmachines but are still welcome to get rid of an opponent’s buffing unit.
If they don't have a buffing unit to destroy, they can well serve to downsize the enemy's main units.


1.4.   Agile units.
They won’t survive shocks or shots. They serve to disrupt enemy’s plans, by attacking warmachines and interposing in the path of melee units.
Skirmishers and fast cavalry can double-move and shoot: Archers, Huntsmen, Pistoliers, for a total threatening range of 32” or 28”. However, their shooting hardly threatens anyone but lone mages.
Flyers can position where they want: Griffon, Pegasus.
Still in that category, you can find small detachments, whose role is to speed bump the enemy.
Witch Hunters could be considered in this category: they are not that likely to kill their target, but may well force it to react.

You want all these units as cheap as possible. Because they are much more likely to die than to kill anything except the crappiest fighters, i.e. warmachines.


1.5.   BS shooters.
They shoot at a rather short range (24” to 36”). They can kill agile units, but struggle to damage the largest melee units. Move-or-shoot and short range allow most targets to get out of range. All in all, they are more suited to interdict a rather small area than to kill nasty foes.
They are Handgunners, Crossbowmen, Outriders.
I include HelBlaster Volley Gun, which range is similar and which uses BS, too.
Engineers using Hochland Long Rifle or Pigeons are in the same category.
Wagons’ spells, Magic missiles, direct damage, vortexes or damaging hexes have a similar area of influence. Especially Metal, Life and Death, which typical range are 24” (plus move).

When there is no agile unit to shoot at, they may well try to downsize a larger unit. Don't expect much, though.


1.6.   Serial Killers, Mass Murderers, Bounty Hunters or Professional Assassins? Select the appropriate tool.
Size matters.
The opponent will not field only units of 15-20 infantry or 7-10 cavalry, which are rather easy to kill.
-   There will be immense Hordes & Buses – no matter how many are killed, there seem to be little difference.
-   Sometimes there will be Many Small Units (MSU): one unit is easy to kill, but there are so many of them that time is too short to catch them and kill them all.
-    Single Characters, the most rewarding targets, will be hidden amongst masses.

"One death is a tragedy; a million is a statistic" (Joseph Stalin).
-   The usual Serial Killers, who make most of WH armies, are best suited against medium units, but are insufficient against large units, have trouble to reach agile units and are not selective enough to kill characters.
-   Mass Murderers are able to cleanse out a large chunk of a horde – but have trouble aiming at the hero leading them, and are overkill against a Small Unit.
-   Bounty Hunters can look after evasive targets – they do marvels also to finish off the remnants of a larger unit.
-   Snipers are able to aim at a specific model – but struggle against small units and are hopeless against massive units.

The appropriate tool shows the good workman. Let’s review our tools (keeping in mind that they are also our opponent’s tools against us).


1.7.   Mass Murderers against Hordes & Buses.
The best way to kill them all at once is Melee – if they lose morale and you catch them.
-   To overcome combat resolution: Active Combat Resolution, helped with Buffs/Hexes, takes many models with many attacks and/or high strength; Static Combat Resolution is achieved with ranks, banners and side/rear charging;
-   To overcome steadfast, you can either use a longer bus yourself or kill so many of them that they are no longer steadfast (think about several sharks eating a whale). Alternatively, use terrain: fights in woods /rivers /buildings can impose or deny steadfast.
-   To hamper their morale test, kill the BSB, kill or lower the General’s Leadership, decrease their own leadership – but that’s no longer a task for Mass Murderers.

Magic offers a few genocide spells able to kill large parts of a Mammoth unit, whatever the size:
-   Fire #5 (all models suffer S4 if moving – 24”)
-   Metal #6 (all models have 2/6 chances to die, no WS – 18”)
-   Life #6 (all models test S or die, no WS – 24”).
Templates spell are weapons of massive destruction:
-   Fire #6 (small/large template, S4 – 30”)
-   Fire #3 (S4 line – 36”)
-   Shadows #5 (small/large template, I test or die, no WS – 24”)
-   Shadows #4 (line, S10, ~40”)
-   Death #6 (small/large template, I test or die, no WS – short distance)
-   Heavens #5 (comet, all units within 2D6” suffer 2D6+m hits, S4+m – infinite distance!)
-   Beasts #3 (S6 ballista – 24”)
Milder spells must be used repetitively before they can cause significant havoc:
-   Fire #0 (1D6 or 2D6 or 3D6, S4 MM – 48”)
-   Fire #1 (each unit in contacts suffers 2D6, S4 - touch)
-   Fire #4 (D3 per rank, S4 – 48”)
-   Metal #0 (2D6 – 24”)
-   Light #5 (2D6, S4 – 48”)
-   Beasts #1 (2D6, S2 – 24”)
-   Beasts #6 may allow a breathing weapon.
In summary, your best Magic Lores against Large Units are:
Fire (#5, 6, 0, 1, 3, 4) and Metal (#6, 0 – short range).
Shadows (#4, 5) is less powerful.
The following Lores can cause significant damage, but you’re not sure to get THE only single spell which works against large units, unless you take two mages with the same Lore: Life (#6), Death (#6), Heavens (#5).
Beasts (#1, 3, 6) might cause significant damage in the long run, but cannot be considered a mass murder Lore.
Light (#5) is near helpless against large units.

There is one more way to deal with superlarge überunits.
Some warmachines can kill many birds with a single stone, at long distance: Mortar (large template), Helstorm Rockets with 1D3 small templates. Their accuracy greatly increases with an engineer, and taking several of them increases chances to get the right target.

Overall, make sure you have at least two ways to deal with hordes/bus überunits:
-   Your own überunit of Melee (with buffs)
-   Many killer Melee Units (with buffs, attacking simultaneously)
-   Fire or Metal Lores, possibly Shadows, assimilated to warmachines.
-   One single spell of Life, Death or Heavens is in the same category.
-   Mortars or Helstorm.


1.8.   Bounty Hunters hunting Small Units.
The good thing with Small Units is that once they’re caught, they’re dead. The trouble is to catch them.
Some of them hide far behind the battleline (warmachines). Some of them are agile enough to evade threats (Agile units). Some of them are so cheap that there are just too many of them.
Mass Murder tools work against them but that’s overkill.

The ideal answer against them should be shooters.
The difficulty with our shooting is that it is mostly Move Or Shoot. Worse, most of our shooting has 90° LOS.
The way to overcome that limit is to take several units of shooters, each of them covering a specific location or a specific direction. If an intruder has to spend half the game getting around them or risking annihilation, that could be worth.
The best shooting unit is the HelBlaster, because of its 360° LOS and its high S.
Pigeons can be used after moving but they are unreliable.
Bows are very weak but they can be used after moving. Their effective range at 360° is 32”. In rather large units, that can be a significant threat.
Pistoliers offer a great alternative. With a double-move, they get a 360° range of 28”.
Other missile weapons are stronger but cover only a predetermined small area that the opponent can circumvent.

The best answer to Small Units is Magic Missiles, assimilated to Shooting but often more efficient – when winds of magic are sufficient.
They can be sent after moving, so they cover a very large area (all the more if their range is long).
They need no BS, so they are outstanding against troops benefitting from covers (skirmishers in a building anytime).
-   Heavens #4 (D6, S6 – 48”)
-   Heavens #2 (D6, S3 – 24”)
-   Heavens #6 (D6, S6, bounces – 24” – perfect against MSU)
-   Light #5 (2D6, S4 – 48”)
-   Light #0 (D6, S4 – 48”)
-   Light #4 (D6, S4 if moves – 48”)
-   Fire #0 (1D6 or 2D6 or 3D6, S4 MM – 48”)
-   Fire #4 (D3 per rank, S4 – 48”)
-   Metal #0 (2D6 – 24”)
-   Beasts #1 (2D6, S2 – 24”)
-   Life #1 (D6, S4 – 18”)
In summary, your best Magic Lores against Small Units are:
Heavens (#2, 4, 6), Light (#0, 4, 5) and Fire (#0, 4). A mobile Metal signature Level 1 could do the job, too.


1.9.   Professional Assassins sniping Leaders.
In melee, that’s easy: the character to kill is in base contact. But it’s risky, too, he could strike back – or worse, strike pre-emptively.
-   Many Rank & File attacks directed to the target and the help of buffs & hexes could do the job: they can take some punishment and strike back with ranks filled in.
-   A tailored killing machine such as The Grand Master with Runefang and Other Trickster Shard has great chances. He is well armoured and could benefit from a Priest’s 5+ ward save. He can challenge to become impervious to Rank & File attacks.
-   Another possibility is to aim for Killing Blows. A Witch Hunter can do that, the problem with him is to survive until his task is achieved. Fencing Blades could be determinant for that.

Some shooting attacks have the sniping capability, too.
-   Witch Hunters can snipe, but at a terrible short range. The brace of pistols is mandatory, and taking 2 of them is the best bet – but still, it’s hard to get good chances for an instakill. In order to bring them into range, a Magic Carpet, or Shadows #1 spell makes them fly. Alternatively, getting inside a unit of bowmen gives the skirmisher capability, allowing to double-move and shoot.
-   Hochland Long Rifles have the sniping capability. They can be given to Engineers, to Handgunners champions and to the Steam Tank. However, their chances to remove one wound are remote, let alone all wounds from a model.

Magic can do the trick. That’s the specialty of Death Lore. Metal has a single access to sniping.
-   Death #0 (24”), #2 (24”), #5 (12”) – as ranges are short, it is best done with a mobile wizard, on a Pegasus for example.
-   Metal #4 (24”).

A combination of Death #0 and Witch Hunter is possible thanks to the Ring of Volans. This increases a lot the chances of killing the desired target. However, the difficulty of getting in range remains.

Hi.

I was considering the following setting for a witchhunter.
Brace of pistols, and ring of Volans, taking Death signature spell.
Of course, that would mean no magic carpet, so the likely carrier unit for the witchhunter would be bowmen.

Rationale for complementing pistols with Death #0:
Both have range 12". They can be used in a row.
Both mean to target a single character inside a unit.
Both could kill, but both have good chances to leave the target just wounded (and mad).
Ring can be used once only. Pistols likely not to be used more than once (R.I.P.).

Withhunter is a nice carrier for the ring, with Ld8.
One trick pony: even if the opponent knows that the Ring is somewhere with Death #0, he may not guess that the witchhunter has it.

What do you think?

Disclaimer:
I know that many people hate the conga line.
If you are just able to express your hate with no added value, please don't, that would be trolling.

You're not a troll, are you?

If you are able to discuss tactical pros and cons without trolling, please do so.
In line with http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=41862.0

-=-=-

I was thinking about some way to protect characters that you wish not to see vulnerable in close combat, but who need to remain with the main line.

A conga line is a solution, however, it cannot be a detachment because of the need for a muso.
It may serve to protect magic users, or BSB, or general.

Problem: characters must go in front rank if there is room for them.
Solution: command group must go in front rank.
Solution is 10 spearmen with musician. The character to be protected goes behind muso. Cost 60pts, that seems reasonable.

S = spearman (musician goes first)
B = bus of whatever.
C = characters

BBBBB S BBBBB
BBBBB C BBBBB
BBBBB C BBBBB
BBBBB C BBBBB
BBBBB S BBBBB
BBBBB S BBBBB
BBBBB S BBBBB
...

Here, the characters cannot be touched in melee until the whole spearmen unit is gone.
The unit can be shot at, but is likely to get the +2 cover from two other units.
The unit can be charged by lone characters/monsters, but they will be countercharged quickly by your two main units.
Also, you can let the spearmen drag 1/2" behind.
Suppose the characters were a Lvl4 general and the BSB with Ld banner, all units are covered by the bubble. Add some MR for the pesky MM and that seems pretty solid.
Add captains in the nearby units and nobody's fleeing nowhere.


Thoughts?

This is my first analysis of the 8th ed rulebook.
I had the time to read it several times and to compare it to the previous one.
I did not play a game yet but I can tell already that I don't want to go back to 7th edition!
I may complement with new ideas as they arrive.
Your comments are welcome, of course.

1.   Biggest changes:
No more being totally and hopelessly prevented to move like you wish by march-blocking fast cavalry.
Move faster through terrain. Charge goes much further.
No more killing 1st rank on the charge to prevent all hits back.
Largest units are easily stubborn, using general & BSB nearby.
Magic is now best at medium level, powerful but not overwhelming.
Less importance of psychology.

2.   My feeling.
Armies using templates and cannons receive a great boost, so do armies with armoured troops and cheap hordish troops.
DoC and VC lost their psychological edge. Basically, all the underdog armies received a great boost. Hard to tell who will emerge, but overall the game is more balanced.

MSU is probably going to be very difficult.  MSU may be replaced by MMU (medium).

Fast cavalry and skirmishers lost a lot of their annoyance for the opponent.
However, they remain invaluable to hunt warmachines and lone survivors who deny us VP by their mere survival.

General, BSB and Wizards are more vital as ever.
However, all kind of characters are more vulnerable than previously, because of many reasons:
-   Many snipe spells,
-   Huge improvements of all warmachines,
-   Monsters are very hard to hide, and all templates hit both monster and rider,
-   A Monster has 0 rank, so any unit with 5 models remaining is steadfast (=stubborn) against it,
-   Charges easier to get,
-   Loss of “Look Out, Sir” if the unit has a different mount than the character,
-   6 models will usually hit any character in melee,
-   BSB dies automatically if the unit runs away,
-   Dangerous miscasts for magic-users.

EDIT: Superseded. See update 5 posts below.
initial thread title: Knights & Powder army - needs help finetuning

Hi!

I've recently registered in W-E, although I've been playing Empire for a couple of years.
I've never played 2000pts or more so far, and this is where I need your advice.
Specific questions below are numbered with a # mark.

My Averheim army is made half of cavalry, half of shooters, with wizards.
I have no melee infantry at all and I don't want to start with them. I'm not much found of Sigmarite fanatic craziness either.

I own:

18 knights (3 FC),
20 handgunners, 10 crossbows, 10 bowmen

7 pistoliers, 5 outriders,
2 cannons, 1 mortar,

1 hellblaster, 1 hellrocket
1 Stank

Many wizards, 2 mounted and 4 footed
1 mounted warpriest
1 Marius Leitdorf model.
Many engineers, one with a nice pigeon model, one with a Hochland, one on the mech horse, one with a pistol.
1 knight Grand Master and 1 knight BSB.


EDIT: thanks to the first two answers provided, I posted below an updated army list to discuss.


Here are the logical steps I'm taking to build my army list.
What I would like to field in a 2250 pts army, for home games (vs HE, Bretts, Dwarfs, Gobbos), is:


#1: Essential Core units.
I intend to take 3 smalls units of knights. They are the ones to go in melee and kill foes. In order to do that, they can sometimes be joined by a character.
- 5 with musician only? Or, for this style of play, is it more reasonable to give them full command and increase the size to 6 or 7?
See #6 for possible other core units.


#2: Which general?
- as a general, I'll most probably take the Grand Master of the Knight Order (of the Black Bear, actually)
- however, I did not exclude a level 4 wizard
- and I still consider Marius Leitdorf with the former GW rules.
Any advice?


#3: Other characters.
I intend to take 2 wizards, at least one being mounted.
That leaves me with a single other slot for character. I've considered, starting with the preferred:
- a pigeon/Hochland engineer, going with cannons (fun & fluffy but probably least efficient, isn't it?).
- a mounted BSB with a magic banner (banner to be determined - fluffy, but how efficient is it in a unit of knights?)
- a mounted warrior priest (provides hatred to knights, his prayer is usable in a magic-heavy army, he can carry a ring - probably efficient but not much in my fluff)
- one more wizard (if going more magic-heavy).
All 4 options seem more or less valid in my eyes. Your advice? 


#4: Rare units.
I will not take two Stanks, I just can't fluffwise, although Averland is rich enough to allow me one, or any other kind of fancy warmachine.
I've read in W-E some interesting proposals for dual Helstorm Rocket Batteries.
- Is it worth buying a second Helstorm Rocket Battery?
- Otherwise I could go for the Stank and a single one, for a while.
Recommendation?


#5: Special units.
I'm long convinced of the utility of fielding two great cannons.
I love my unit of 7 Pistoliers (champion with multiple pistol, musician), for bait & flee, harassing, lots of uses.
For the remaining special slot, I have to select among:
- 5 Outriders (Hochland champion), great to defend the warmachines, but tend to be shot to ashes in turn 1. I'm not really convinced about them except as excellent elite target for my foe's fire.
- Inner circle knights, I would need to buy more knights. Probably a unit of 8 would be enough? More fluffy, but it might be too many knights.
Your advice? would more knights just be too many? are outriders going to be any useful in my style of play?


#6: Complementary core units.
If any pts are left available, I am keen to take some more shooters, as I am used to.
Usually I take a unit of 10 Handgunners (HLR) / Crossbowmen, with two detachments of 5 Handgunners / Crossbowmen / Archers. This allows me to have the choice of concentrating or spreading fire, and the opponent has 3 units to get rid of.
These units should take care of light skirmishers/fast cavalry/flankers, acting as bodyguards to the warmachines.
If I don't take the outriders, then I feel I need one of these. Fluffwise, handguns are better than crossbows which are better than archers. Unfortunately, they are in the opposite order for being easy to use...
I could also take two of such 10+5+5 units.
Do I need 0? 1? 2?


#7: Using this army.
Warmachines are to take care of monsters and reduce blocks of infantry.
Knights are to charge whatever remains, with the help of characters.
Wizards are to resist the opponent's magic and, if possible, to enhance my shooting/charges. Ultimately, they may be used to cast magic missiles, but it's not my preferred use.
Shooters are there to protect the rears of the army from light flyers/fast cavalry.

How do you feel it may work?
I'm still worried about dragons and Brett's Peggies.
Also, I don't know how to take care of HE archers hidden in a building.

Otherwise, I feel it should be quite a balanced army, efficient in all phases.



That's all for today.
Than you for your time reading that and, if you feel so, providing an advice to questions #1 to #7.