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Messages - S.O.F

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1
You win for the sweet 4th edition Halberdier defending the War Alar. Though I would like to place odds that the armies on parade/GW guy doesn't realize that Theo is a real legit fig.....GW peons are poor at this sort of thing.

2
These Kislev fanatic models gave Kislev armies the ability to field units of Handgunners, Xbows, Halberds, Swordsmen with Shields,

It's pretty versatile

you could have a whole empire army in kislev

Yes and no. The different hand options were of course nice but the range had, including Youngbloods and Champs, 5 poses for regular troops and 3 poses for missile troops, always find a unit gets a bit dull if you start repeating the same figures over and over.

Also just the thought of amassing enough Mordheim Kislev mini for a whole army hurts the wallet...I ended up with a bunch spare and the average price on those babies is like $20 each.

3
35 for a captain and 50 for a grandmaster would be fine as the pegasus for the captain is the better choice and really it doesn´t add too mauch except 3 S5 attacks from the beast.

35 pts is way too low, +1 WS, +1 S, +1 A, Armor Piercing, barding, and Fear are not worth the same as Fly? Demi-Grif cannot cost less than a Pegasus.

4
How about playtesting allowing a Demigryph mount for Grandmasters and Captains? 50pts seems about right.

We could see if it is totally broken or not.

Well if you mess around a bit with the math in the army book as it is the Demi-Grif costs some 45 points. Now this is probably too cheap as is only 50 points but I think say 65 points as a character mount would most likely be fine.

5
I think there are reasons we do not see that many chars on monstrous cavalry (chaos excluded).

True but I wouldn't call the ludicrously undercosted price of a demi-grif mounted knight compared to one on a horse a 'right' reason

6
The Count's Tavern / Re: Signs you have a real model addiction
« on: May 21, 2013, 02:52:20 AM »
So essentially you leased them to the guy for $2 a month.


7
The Brush and Palette / Re: Pleasant Surprises VI
« on: May 20, 2013, 11:10:40 PM »
Yep the pre-shipping pic

8
The Brush and Palette / Re: Pleasant Surprises VI
« on: May 20, 2013, 12:53:28 PM »
Excellent  :-D

9
The Count's Tavern / Re: Rumours: Big Changes to Warhammer Fantasy
« on: May 19, 2013, 08:26:03 PM »
I should hope they'd eventually offer the Greek States as DLC at a later date...

But that isn't the real problem of it. See in Shogun 2 they did a bunch of the special DLC or pre-order Clan BS which by in large were just 2-3 different skinned units, which I don't think Greek Cities or Successor state will be much better than. Now if you are a modder that wants to release a better thought out and or superior skinned roster you have to have the DLC, if you don't have the DLC of the faction CA and Sega consider it 'piracy' even if you don't use or unlock anything they have made. I highly dislike this system as I really like some of the other factions not currently out so say Dacia, Pergamon, the Seleucids, now you spent a bit of time initially opening these up building a modding a whole roster and if CA makes them into a DLC at a later date you have to buy it or else you are a 'pirate'.

 

10
The Count's Tavern / Re: Rumours: Big Changes to Warhammer Fantasy
« on: May 19, 2013, 06:03:05 PM »
Philly, Rome 2 is fastest preordering game ever, so I think CA still have a certain cache

Being that the pre-order comes with 12 factions as opposed to 9 is probably the biggest factor....and one that is rather sickening.....

11
That is a very nice model. IS it mordheim too? I don't recognize it.

Yeah he is another one of the Ostland Warband


12
maybe the guy just has naturally blue eyes?

That glow in the dark...

Perhaps his been into the Spice...

13
The Brush and Palette / Re: Farmyard Animals
« on: May 18, 2013, 01:05:31 AM »
I think looking for children's toys perhaps may be the easiest option.

14
Various Artillery projects I've been on of late

GREAT Cannon




Siege Mortar


Some WIP Dwarf Guns


15
The Electors' Forum / Re: Magic Items
« on: May 17, 2013, 11:22:56 PM »
Keeping it to around the 9 item mark means we can have more thought out, balanced items without risking game-breaking items, whilst still keeping some great combo's with the items in the brb. White Cloak and Glittering Scales/Fencer's Blades? Runefang & Other Trickster's Shard? We still have combos, but now everyone is on a far more level playing field, and for those who dont tournament it up all the time they can actually have a decent grip on what your opponent might have. I know when I was starting out I had no idea whatsover what all the 30+ magic items from each army were, but now just having to remember basically 5 from each plus the BRB ones you're already familiar with, it has become a lot better for new players as well as the competitive. The new book was a fantastic breath of fresh air IMO.

Arfa

The problem has been though that nine would be a nice number (about the amount from any old book of items that are truly useful) many books have delivered 2 good items and 7 stinkers. I am highly doubtful of the degree of playtesting these items get that would ever prove a large number of current items are ever worth their points.

16
The Electors' Forum / Re: Magic Items
« on: May 17, 2013, 09:27:51 PM »
I imagine the whole Dwarf rune system will need to be overhauled and eagerly await it.

But to what extent can it be with that they cannot have BRB items.

17
The Brush and Palette / Re: Help me identify these. Thanks.
« on: May 15, 2013, 06:44:41 PM »
The first two are female barbarians that were in and out of the barbarian/norse/ 'big mommas' range.

The third mini is a damage Barbarian

The last is a late 3rd/4th edition Bretonnian Retainer. The 4th edition Brets only had a get you by list and the mini range from that era I've never seen in a catalog. One of the guys over at The Round Table has collected and taken pics of all of them, they are really nice minis and fetch a reasonable price on Ebay.

18
The Electors' Forum / Re: Great warhammer fluff
« on: May 14, 2013, 05:15:54 PM »
Anyone have any suggestions for Empire fluff I can access online?

Well if you've not looked at this.

19
The Count's Tavern / Re: Rumours: Big Changes to Warhammer Fantasy
« on: May 14, 2013, 04:38:40 PM »
I've thought a system along these lines was rather good for sometime.

The Kingdoms of Men: Army Lists for The Empire, Bretonnia, Dogs of War (Tilea and Estalia), Kislev, and Araby with allied contingents for Norse, The Moot, and Albion
The Elder Races: Army Lists for Dwarfs, Dark Elves, High Elves, Wood Elves, and Lizardmen with allied contingents for Amazons and Pygmies.
The Old Night: Army Lists for Orcs and Goblins, Ogres, Skaven, and Undead (Covering Vampire Counts, Necromatic, and Tomb Kings separately) with allied contingents of Hobgoblins and Fimir
The Hordes of Chaos: Army Lists for Warriors, Beastmen, Daemons (all interchangeable to a degree), and Chaos Dwarfs with Kurgan allied contingent options.

20
The Electors' Forum / Re: Religion and Knightly Orders (Fluff)
« on: May 14, 2013, 05:41:28 AM »
Honestly I find this a square peg and a round hole type situation where Darknight and I are arguing of the virtues of the square or the round being the correct answer. There is no way in order to harmonize 'Devout templars of Sigmar' with the secular bodyguard of the Emperor. In the 3rd, 4th/5th, and 7th the Reiksguard are portrayed as mere the core of the Emperor's army and having no religious importance where the 6th and 8th books have the notes on religion. WHFRP material and the novel Reiksguard are more in favor of the secular argument though are open to interpretation if you strain to make it so. It is my opinion that, like so many other random lines in the Empire army books, that the templars line was thrown in there for no reason other than the writer thought it sounded good and continuity be damned.

21
The Electors' Forum / Re: Religion and Knightly Orders (Fluff)
« on: May 13, 2013, 09:58:51 PM »
Very true - but that doesn't change the fact the current background (for the last three editions, presumably) contains an explicit reference to them being a Sigmarite order. There is no explicit reference in current fluff which contradicts this or denies it (no "they are secular" or "they are not religious" or even "they are not Sigmarite").

No-one has turned up a single reference in any of the first five editions which explicitly contradicts or denies their Sigmarite nature. Even if there was such a reference, a case could be made that the current background supersedes it.

The arguments being made are "I don't agree they are Sigmarite, and if I disregard the explicit references it makes sense for them to be ecumenical or secular" . . . . which is perfectly true and perfectly fine. If someone wants to play Reiksguard as secular or followers of Myrmidia or someone else, that is just dandy - that's the point of the game.

In the third edition Armies book Imperial Knights are separated into three classes: Temple Ritterbruden, Hohensknechtes, and Stadtsknechtes. The Ritterbruden represent templar orders which follow certain gods named with in the entry are Knights of White Wolf and Knights of the Fiery Heart in particular. Hohensknechtes are the largest and most influential of secular orders which are named to contain the Imperial Guard (Reiksguard) and Knights Panther.

Further if we go with quotes from the book Reiksguard:
Quote
“Emperor Wilhelm,” he began, “as much as any good man of Nuln should detest him, I cannot but admit that his creation of the Reiksguard was a masterstroke. Other emperors had founded knightly orders before, but none of them ever saw their true potential. Other orders…” Herr von Matz waved his hand dismissively. “The Order of the Black Bear want the strongest, the Knights of Sigmar’s Blood want the learned, even our own great Emperor Magnus,when he founded the Knights Griffon, asked only for the most devout. It was only Emperor Wilhelm who ever asked for the eldest. The heirs. More than any of the others, Wilhelm looked to the future; for after ten or twenty years, once their fathers were dead, the heirs were the nobles themselves. And each of them had been taught and drilled to have absolute loyalty to their Emperor. To leave the rule of the Empire to him. To shun politics altogether! Everyone knows that the Reiksguard have vowed to never interfere in the political world. Loyalty, first, last and always, isn’t that right? And an end to civil wars as well, because it is so much harder to shed the blood of one you have called brother.

Quote
The oaths of a brother-knight to the Reiksguard and to the order’s rule superseded any others that a warrior might take, whether to family, province, friends or gods, short of those he took to the Emperor himself.

The context of this is a statement by a member of the Order to a Witch employed by the order to divine the fates of its members and test that they will not betray the order.
Quote
Your ‘gift’ was not our concern, though there are witch hunters and templars enough to burn you for that alone. I would have cared not if you had spent your life where you were, reading commoners’ fates.
 

Other than the single line starting the 6th edition book nothing in the background links the Reiksguard to being Sigmarite Templars. They don't take special religious vows or training which is required of Templars. They are not part of the Sigmarite Cult hierarchy to which all other Templar Orders are. As there is nothing to back up the Sigmarite Templar statement other than the statement exists for the sake of congruency and consistency it is far easier to throw out the line rather than the wealth of information that is not in keeping with it.

22
The Electors' Forum / Re: Religion and Knightly Orders (Fluff)
« on: May 13, 2013, 05:44:57 PM »
I honestly can't recall a single reference to the Reiksguard being secular - they are a religious, Sigmarite, templar order in every piece of fluff I have seen.

And beyond the single line that began appearing in the 6th edition book nothing they do makes them particularly religious. They don't appear in WHFRP Tome of Salvation that has blurbs on all the Empire's major Templar Orders and their relation to their respective cults. The novel Reiksguard sets them up a formation designed to further the interest of the Reikland Electors and power of the Emperor. They are a means to keeping Imperial unity and why sons and heirs of important Nobles from other provinces for a time serve in its ranks.

Army Book fluff is some of the worst stuff GW puts out and it keeps get and less and less sensible. For example look at this gem that is in the 8th edition book:
Quote
To become a member of one of the Empire's select brotherhoods of Knightly Orders a noble must forsake his feudal responsibilities and rights of inheritance and then pass a rigorous right of initiation.

That is of course ludicrous. Certainly a number of Templar orders which have religious vows would require initiates to cast off their secular responsibilities, the context of the sentence is that all Knightly Orders must do so. In the previous book this stupid line wasn't even there but simply that nobles of the Empire often join Knightly Orders.

There is no canon to Warhammer background and you can place primacy of fluff on the increasingly dreadful Army Books if you like but they are far from the best source.

Current army book, page 44, second last paragraph talks about them being drawn from every state and only requirements being loyalty to emperor and martial skill. No where on the page does it mention anything about being a religious order.

It still includes the copy and pasted line from the 6th edition in the first column calling them 'Devout templars of Sigmar'. Of course the whole Reiksguard page in the new book is a frankensteined copy and paste from the 6th/4th/ and Enemy Within with slight alterations and fraught with contradictions from when compared to the previous page on Knightly Orders, the quote I already included about having to forgo inheritance yet specifically stating that many Reiksguard knights are heirs to Electoral seats.

23
The Electors' Forum / Re: Religion and Knightly Orders (Fluff)
« on: May 13, 2013, 03:17:32 AM »
I hardly think it is appropriate to call the current army book's words "erroneous"; that book is what is used to determine rules. One could hardly say "In the 4th edition, we were allowed to take Ogres - but in the 6th and onwards the erroneous entry in the army book does not allow this". Erroneous means "in error" - that is, incorrect. That isn't a word to be used to describe the current ruleset or background.

That said; can anyone offer an actually contradictory description of the Reiksguard? That is, something along the lines of an explicit "The Reiksguard are a secular order" or "The Reiksguard are not a religious order"? Or is it just assumed?

On the other subject; Blazing Sun are Myrmidia, so are Panthers. Unlikely to accept a devotee of Ulric into their ranks.

From the W-E Library page on Knightly Orders by Otaku:
Quote
The Grand Order of the Reiksguard
(Possibly a Sigmarite templar order. The fluff and referances are contradictory. However I have been told GW admitted it was a mistake in thier fluff to discribe this order as templars of Sigmar)

This has been my understanding as well that GW was in error and one they have not bothered to fix. It is not as if it the only one for example the Battle of Leitziger Ford could not have happened as the reigning Emperor Dieter IV in 2427 was the Elector Count of Stirland.

Also the Knight Panther are a secular order, it expressly says 'secular brotherhood' in the Empire Heraldry book.

24
The Electors' Forum / Re: Religion and Knightly Orders (Fluff)
« on: May 13, 2013, 12:24:19 AM »
I have no idea where people are getting the idea the Reiksguard are a secular order; I cannot remember that in older fluff (although I could be wrong)

The problem is it was in the 6ht edition that the 'devout Sigmarite Templar' bit first entered into the description. In the 4th edition book they are described as the Emperor's personal army and bodyguard made up of important young nobles from all over the Empire. In any of the Black Library works that have dealt with the Reiksguard, the book Reiksguard in particular of course, the treatment has been along the lines of the 4th edition presentation and not the erroneous entry from the 6th Army Book on. Further any of the WHFRP source material treats the Reiksguard as a secular order.

As to the OP Ulricans can join any secular order, the Knights Panther are a secular order and their number probably include a fair number of men who are of the Ulrican confession. I think the biggest problem in all this is that GW fluff, in the army books at least, don't understand the important difference between Templars and regular Knights.

25
The Electors' Forum / Re: 6mm Empire army.
« on: May 11, 2013, 06:27:11 PM »
Um, is Warmaster 6mm?

No it is 10mm, Epic is 6mm

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