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Quote from: Shadow_Zero on February 13, 2013, 05:41:08 PM

You still need line of sight for canons and hbvg's, else no aim.

As I said, that's considered a trivial prerequisite on the same level as the need for a model.

Now you make me wonder where you "said" that. Or is that reading between the lines? (or do I lack English?)

In any case, personally, I can't see it as a 'trivial prerequisite', since stuff blocking my canon's line of sight really can be a bother in a battle.

It seems like this is a typical 7th ed dwarf scenario. I've beaten gunlines many times. But in this case, with true LoS and no aiming for war machines, he kills just outguns me.

No aiming for war machines? What does he mean by that??

A Batallion box or Empire Army box?
That's not the one listed?

2000 - Empire Batallion
19 spearmen
18 handgunners
8 knights
1 general
1 canon/mortar

i wouldnt go below 8 myself if you're planning on main combats with them. i like 10 +2 characters as gives you a few wounds before losing the disruption bonus.

Two ranks, then you only have Steadfast against 1 ranked enemies...?

It would be nice and fluff if the first shot can be a 'move and fire' one. I mean, I would think x-bows and handguns are prepared for the first shot when the soldiers enter the battlefield. After reloading, make it 'move or fire'.

For these points the Kislev knights deserve full plate armour as well in my book. Fluff wise they shouldn't get barding I  guess though, so a slight difference with the Empire knights 

The main reason I use them is for a guaranteed use of the Hochland long rifle. If my Master Engineer has a Hochland long rifle he tends to only use it every other turn or less because I have to rely on his Master of Ballistics. This also frees up the option on the Master Engineer to take Pigeon Bombs instead.

Don't take them all the time but find they can still be useful in the right circumstances 

Master Engineer can use Pidgeon Bombs and Master of Ballistics in the same turn??

So far I still field Handgunners, 10 maybe 20 (2x 10 then). I've used them as detachment, or next to my canons, 'hiding' an Engineer. I don't like them in front of my canons, since it blocks line of sight. Shooting T3 enemies can be good. I often play against Vampire Counts and their infantry is slow as heck, so shooting them from a distance works out quite nice      (stuff like Dire Wolves and Spider Riders, T3 with no armour saves is nice canon fodder)
And fluff wise I just like em  ^_^

I really miss the fresh powder rule from the 6th edition book, it really made them an elegant choice.

What was the 'fresh powder' rule?

Battle report/summary/high-lowlights (Empire focused)
(photos: http://www.myspace.com/shadow_z80/photos/albums/album/1657270 )

DEPLOYMENT

Left Flank
Great Canon 1
HBVG
Handgunners + Engineer
Stank 1
Halberdiers + BSB + Priest + LV4 Wizard + Swordsmen detachment

Flamers of Tzeentch
Bloodcrushers

Center
Knights
Stank 2
Great Canon 2
Mortar
Engineer

Blood Letters
Pink Horrors

Right Flank
Daemon Prince
Daemonettes
Seekers of Slaanesh
Flesh Hounds


Left Flank
Pistoliers
I didn’t really know what to do with my Pistoliers. I wanted them warmachine hunting, but 12000 points and some scenery on the table doesn’t leave much room for maneuvering. BS3 shooting with 12” range, which pretty much makes most shooting long range is just pathetic. Some shooting and fleeing is all they did, but they survived till the end (and I didn’t fail any panic test for fleeing within 6” from friendlies). Used Vanguard before the start.

Lv4 Fire wizard
Rolled 6 dice for my first spell for the Fulminating Flame Cage against a Goblin Squigs unit (long range, so casting value was 14+), which went irresistible force. Rolled 4 on the miscast table, so I got a nice Dimensional Cascade (large template, S10 hits!) in my halberdier unit (15 hit, 11 wounded). Rolled 3 after that, so my wizard got removed as a casualty, ouch! Next time I should put my wizard and characters in a unit apart (the characters didn’t die, but it’s a risk). But since I learnt that in close combat and base contact you can choose to strike a rank and file  model or the character, I wonder if a Halberdier unit is good place to ‘hide’ a wizard…

In any case, Flame Cage did some damage with D6 S4 hits. Next turn however, the Goblin Squigs unit had to charge so the ‘whole’ unit got S4 hits from the Flame Cage, which pretty much obliterated the unit     (question: does the effect still continue after the casting wizard died?)

Stank1
Rolled a misfire first turn and 3 wounds, durrr… Wanted to move ‘a bit’, but pumping 2 Steam Points in the engine resulted in a 2x 6” random movement, doh! Canon shoots too short, doh again! Second turn rolled a misfire on the canon, doh!
Got charged by a Beastmen chariot after the Pistoliers fled. Destroyed it in CC, but that left the way open  for the 6x Minotaur (inc. Gorebull) unit to charge. 1+ AS did manage to keep it alive for quite some time, to annoyance of my Beastmen opponent     But it was just a matter of time before they’d destroy it (took a -3 toughness spell to really seal it’s fate, in turn 4). In turn 3 it took 4 wounds, which all got AS  ^^

Halberdiers
Since I had Stank and Pistoliers up front, backed up by the Bloodcrushers, I kept them in the back, waiting for whatever would break through. There was also not really room to move a horde unit with detachment and I didn’t want to get them in the line of sight of the artillery. After the Minotaurs (inc. Gorebull) destroyed Stank1 they (finally) got to my Halberdiers, countercharged with the Swordsman detachment. They killed my BSB, but since I was steadfast I passed my Ld (I lost CR big time). And that was the end of that.

Warrior Priest 1 (halberdiers)
Well, the halberdiers unit only got into combat in the end, so this Warrior Priest didn’t do much. Tried some prayers (since my only wizard send himself to the Realm of Chaos in the first turn anyway), 5+ ward save would be nice against Goblin artillery (though they never got shot), but most of the time it got dispelled.

Handgunners
Well, they were there to hide my Engineer, but no spells or artillery from the enemy in this direction. Shooting with BS3 on long range didn’t do much, but they survived till the end.

Canon 1
No bounce on the first shot, thus shooting too short on the first turn :/   Blasts a chariot to smithereens in the second and the Gors champion (+2 ranks) in the third.

HBVG
22 shots in the second turn (first turn enemy was in range), kills 10 Beastmen Gors! Turn three had 18 shots and 4 wounds (misses 10 hits :/ ).


Center
Warrior Priest 2 (knights)
First prayer resulted in opponent activating a Feedback Scroll, which killed my Warrior Priest (including Crown of Command)  :/ 

Knights
Knights did quite well (charged Bestigors in turn 2), but I might have been in luck because my opponents Bestigors attacked rank & file knights with his rank & file models, instead of my Grand Master. If all attacks were directed at GM, I don’t think he would have survived the two rounds of close combat. Runefang hit his character leaving 1 wound (unfortunately). His character hits GM, but 1+ AS saves all hits.
First CC round 7 Knights killed and 9 Bestigors plus 2 wounds against character 9 (but pass Ld test with Steadfast).
Second CC round Harpies flank charge. 5 Knights killed and 5 Bestigors, GM kills Beastmen character (last wound) with runefang and two more Bestigors.
Bestigors and Harpies fail Ld test and Flee! Goblin Doom Diver fails panic test and can’t shoot next turn. Ungors pass Panic test. Bestigors Caught in Pursuit and destroyed. (not sure if I got this part right) Pursuited into Ungors, destroyed 6, failed Panic test and also got Caught (or Flee off the field, not sure).

Oh yeah, Knights also got hit by Fanatics the first turn, killing 1 (1 saved by AS and 1 by Priest WS).

Turn 3 Knights reformed and I aimed for a rear charge against the Minotaurs (which failed, though I still wonder if we played that right). They took some arrows from an Ungor archers ambush killing 1 knight. Spear Chuka failed to wound.

Stank 2
Kept this in reserve for wherever it was needed. First turn misfire and 2 wounds, doh!
Did some canon shooting with various luck. Almost killed the Beastmen giant, which would have been nice, since with 2 wound left it was quite nasty when it got in close combat.

Great Canon 2
Was hard to get line of sight for this one (can it shoot over/through the Garden of Morr??). One of the reasons I didn’t want to move Stank 2 too much, or else line of sight would be completely blocked. First shot was too short. Almost killed the Beastmen Giant with a shot in turn 2 (took 4 wounds). Destroys a Doom Diver in turn 3. Did 2 wounds against the Trolls in turn 4, but one of them got regenerated.

Mortar
With all those horde units and no line of sight needed (and large template of course) I find it still fun to shoot this. Had a 6” scatter the first shot which I re-rolled using the Engineer, but it went off-table then. Turn 2 it scattered a bit and killed 3 Spiderriders. Turn 3 it scattered a bit and hits a Goblin unit, killing 8. Turn 4 it ‘hits’ and kills 3 Spiderriders which fail their panic test.


General
This battle was a good example of the randomness of the Orcs & Goblins army. Fanatics hit hard when they get launched, but after that, in this battle, they mostly did massive damage to their own units   ^^
In turn 2 they manage to blow up a Doom Diver and Rock Lobber in 1 turn, ouch (but that could happen to the Empire as well).

A 6x Minotaur unit (especially the Gorebull) is pretty scary. Destroyed Stank 1, Bloodcrushers and a lot of Halberdiers. I guess in general we should canon them before they get into close combat. I was curious if we played one more turn if the Halberdiers + Swordsmen would beat them or not (I think 2 were still standing, including the character). Is a 6x Stone Troll unit just as scary?

‘Luckily’ I wasn’t the only one who blew up a wizard. Turn 3 had a Beastmen and a Goblin cast irresistible force as well. The Beastmen had luck because of the Earthening scroll, being able to re-roll the 3 and avoiding the Dimensional Cascade. But the Goblin did get painful Dimensional Cascade.

Daemon Skulltaker had 5 hits in turn 3 against the Giant, but rolling no wounds! After that the Giant picked him up and threw him into the Pink Horrors, heh.

Pros
~2293 empire points left on the field (counting units fully)
Grand Master + Runefang
Didn’t blow up any canons (not even a misfire, only with the Steam Tanks)
Fulminating Flaming Cage on Goblin/Squigs
Knights overrunning Bestigors & Ungors

Cons
Again forgot to fire the Stank Commander’s repeater pistol most of the time  -_-
Pistoliers – how could I’ve used them effectively in this battle?
Forgot to move Stank 2 in Turn 3, so didn’t have a shot there (firing only straight ahead can be annoying)
Irresistible Force + Dimensional Cascade on lv4 wizard in turn 1
Priest prayer getting Feedback scrolled and killed
Lore of Shadow (Beastmen) can be quite nasty, nerfing stats on my knights and steam tank.

Quote from: Shadow_Zero on December 29, 2012, 01:27:39 AM

Failed dispel + dispel scroll possible?
Nope, used after dispel.

That's what I meant  ^^

Do Warrior Priests get hit by magical feedback?
Sadly, yes.

Kinda lame, since it's an innate ability and not a spellcaster, and cannot add any wizard level to the casting value  :/

Can wizards in Close combat only use hex and augment spells?
Any spell besides magic missiles so Direct Damage works as well.

Magical Vortexes can also be cast?

Does hatred still count when a Warrior Priest is slain by a higher I enemy?
Nope

Damn, really? Fluff wise I'd say a unit goes into battle in Hatred psychology and just keeps that even if the Warrior Priest gets slain first in the first combat round due to striking in Initiative order...?

Can characters switch from position in unit when charged?
Only via Make Way

Where is this explained in the BRB?

Wow, I read the Frenzy part, but not the cavalry part. I guess I kinda assumed the last line was about Frenzy as well. Fool me once, fool me twice!   

Too bad our knights don't get parry  ^^

When deploying the units with alternating turns, does the one finishing first wait for the other to deploy all his units before continuining with the war machines and characters, or does he continue with that when it's his turn again?

Oh, just got word I'm in alliance with Daemons this time, against Orcs & Goblins/Beastmen   

You think I should field the Halberdiers as horde or as bus?