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Every Empire list has at least one archer detachment of 5 models. Otherwise you are just doing it wrong

Care to elaborate one who hasn't used archer detachments so far?   
(so far I've been doing it with Handgunners and Swordsmen as detachments)

Ah, yes! I recall reading that, but never really noted it (it has never applied to me before in any case  ).
But now I notice that my O&G mate had an illegal list with 3 Doom Divers! (2500pts)  :O

or cannoned, or warp lighting cannoned, or trebucheted, or rock lobbad, or bolt throwered...

There is a reason you put characters in units!

Quote from: mr chumley warner on March 07, 2011, 03:22:48 PM

It's far too deadly , for 80 pts. In every game I ahve played , his Doom Diver takes at least 200-300 Pts of my knights/pistoliers/characters out of the game.

Ridiculous

Do you think its ridiculous when your cannon kills your opposition giant in one shot?

Looking at the point costs plus the fact it can correct 1D6 (plus hit every unit with that correction) and does not allow armour saves, I kinda have the 'ridiculous!' feeling. Also feeded by a battle experience where my opponent fielded 3 (behind a building, next to a giant spider) and pretty much wiped out my elite knights :/  (http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=40490.msg654592#msg654592)

With a flying wizard I'd use a 4+ ward item.

With the captasus- isn't hunting artillery one of his jobs? The doom diver will only get one shot to kill him.
It then needs to not misfire, not scatter too far, not roll a 1 or 2 to wound, and then not roll a 1 or 2 for number of wounds.

Why only 1 shot?

it is a rule the army gets the high elves right now are the only ones with the rule I think it is stated in their FAQ.


Here you go

Page 89 – Choosing an Army
Add “Elite Army
The High Elves are few in numbers, but their armies are
trained and equipped to standards so high that they are the
envy of all other races. To represent this, an army may include
up to 6 of each Special choice (up to 12 in a Grand Army) and
up to 4 of each Rare choice (up to 8 in a grand army).”

So other armies can have unlimited Special and Rare choices?? (I didn't quite get that part from these 2 posts...)

In two weeks I have a rematch against O&G + Daemons, so I'll have to prepare a strategy for (in any case) the Doom Divers   

PS: Sorry for the revive, but I stumbled across this interesting topic (google even)

I must say, last battle I didn't use the Stank, nor named characters. The Orcs and Daemons had named characters which did some big slaughtering. This time named characters aren't allowed for this 12000 point battle though 

Aside from that, a horde Halberdiers doesn't stand a chance against a horde Orcs or Daemons (in last year's battle in any case). I'm wondering if I should consider a bus formation or multiple small units?

My knights got blown away by the Doom Divers, which were heavily protected/guarded, so a cavalry of war machine hunters will have a hard time locking them up

I don't have any buff wagons or chickens, so I can't use those.
Warrior Priests are a staple yes   
I might consider fielding 2 Stanks, is that viable/fair?
Usually I field my BSB in my horde halberdiers. In such a big game, should I choose otherwise? As single character it'll probably be targeted by Doom Divers I reckon.

What do you exacly mean with "archers to re-direct"?
And someone last mentioned that a skirmish unit can be put in front of the canon line, as to block a charging enemy unit, but not blocking the canon's line of sight, so it can still shoot. Is that correct?

Guess I should max out my canon slots for this battle ^^
(could also try a horde of knights to see how it goes    )

Quote from: Warlord on April 24, 2012, 02:45:56 AM

Engineer - only useful on a helblaster, arguably an expensive combo
Cannon - despite point increase, still must take
Helblaster - reliable, good for killing knights and monster units

I'd recommand a battery of Cannon + Hellblaster with 1 Engineer. 305pts overall.
Align HB forwards, engie at 3" behind, cannon 3" behind engie.
When you start the game and as long as the HB's 24" bubble is free of enemies, the engie helps the cannon.
When the HB has a target, the engie helps the HB and let the cannon aim by itself.
When the HB is about to be charged, the engie remains in between, at the appropriate angle so the pursuit leaves the cannon out of threat. So much for 2 warmachines disabled in 1 turn.
When the engie has been killed in melee, the enemy can't overrun a second time, and stays there => grapeshoot them.

Sounds good!
But don't Engineer and/or HBVG block LOS for the Canon then? Or do we get in a TLOS discussion then? Well, my main question, can a Canon shoot 'over' a lone model or other canon?

Since I got back into WHFB I got 1 Whitedwarf, the 8th edition Empire release, which I read with much enjoyment.
I got a few back in the day (mid-end 90's). I think #200 had a White Dwarf figure and various issues had fold 'n glue scenery which I really liked!  Do they still come with a figure or scenery once in a while?

What did people like so much of the mid '90's White Dwarf?

I updated the list on the first page. Perhaps we can throw in on wiki somewhere?
(though I must admit, I haven't looked there for quite a while)

Quote from: Noght on September 07, 2012, 12:04:12 AM

Quote from: Grazhnakk on September 06, 2012, 11:56:03 PM

So trying to use weasel rules to hide a larger target is the same, exact thing on the other side of that coin.

Don't be that guy.

Um...how about you use the BRB rules rather than "vectors".

Rules are clear:  You can shoot at the Model OR you can shoot at a spot on the Ground that you can see.  Simple?  I think so.  AND you absolutely cannot target anything within 10" of your own troops.  Even a 1 in 6 chance of rolling 10 and bouncing into your own troops means you can't pick that spot.

Don't be that guy who doesn't read the rulebook....
Just to clarify, using BRB rules ain't being a Weasel.  Get a laser pointer skippy.
BTW I play that any Rank and File unit blocks ground LOS for my Cannoneers.  I'm not a peek under the horse's ass to see a spot kind of guy, maybe you are.

Just to be clear though, you don't see any rules problem with that right?

I mean the tlos rules mean if you can see it you can shoot it. And using the BSB rules isn't being a weasel. I just am confused as to your stance on that having just said that going by the rules is fine.

Quote from: Siberius on September 07, 2012, 07:41:45 AM

Just to be clear though, you don't see any rules problem with that right?

I mean the tlos rules mean if you can see it you can shoot it. And using the BSB rules isn't being a weasel. I just am confused as to your stance on that having just said that going by the rules is fine.

Graz's post #17 has it right.  You can see the target, see the "spot", or just the "spot".  What you can't do is see the target, NOT see the spot, and fire using the "see it shoot it" method.

It's galacticly hard to "hide" a Monster using TLOS, the "see it shoot it" method on cannoneering makes it impossible (and isn't what the BRB says).

Can't you target an enemy target if there's a risk a canon ball bounces 10" hitting a friendly behind the target?

Anyone has some links to TLOS articles, posts, threads? Still a bit unfamiliar with that.

Quote from: Shadow_Zero on September 19, 2012, 10:20:13 AM

My mate wonders if it's allowed to give a Warrior Priest a Great Weapon and a Sword of Swift Slaying. Is that allowed?

Yes, it is possible although it offers no advantage. A character will always use his magic weapon, so the points for the GW are wasted.

BRB says:

What's in a name?
The magic weapon listed below often have a name that describes them as specifically being a sword or another particular type of weapon. This doesn't mean that the model has to have a sword to use the 'Ogre Blade'. We can simply assume that his axe, hammer or other suitable hand weapon has the same properties and is, for example, an 'Ogre Axe'.

I read that as, if I give my Warrior Priest a Great Weapon, a magic weapon will 'upgrade' his standard weapon to the magic weapon (so Sword of Swift Slaying would be 'Great Weapon' of Swift Slaying).
It's not like that?

Tx for the reply! I have the 8th edition army book and pocket rulebook, but I'm still learning (and trying to memorize ).

Some additional questions on your replies:

Soul Fire hits command group & hero when in base contact (possible killing the Standard Bearer directly)? remove rank-file following rules for command groups

But if it's in base contact with a Lord/Hero, it will hit that model? Or also rank-file first then?

Can the Steam Gun be fired on a large enemy target if there’s a friendly unit behind the large target in the line of fire (of the breath template)? not completely sure if I udnerstand your situation completely, but you cannot fire in to close combat and you cannot fire hitting your own troops, the large target rule only affects cover modfiers

Ok. I was kinda thinking, with the Great Canon it has to kill a Monstrous Infantry or larger target before it travels further. I was kinda hoping there was something like that for breath weapon too. I had a unit (not in CC with the target) behind the target which was in the line of fire. Since it was Monstrous Infantry I kinda (idly) hoped it was, theoratically, big enough to catch the whole flame     (and thus, not hitting my unit behind it, again, which was not in CC). But we didn't play like that and decided I couldn't fire. But it feels to me it's kinda a mismatch in regards to the Canon ball rulings.

Is a ward save allowed with irresistible force spell? IF doesnt affect ward, if ward saves can be taken depends on the spell

I have to rephrase that. Is ward save allowed against wounds from the miscast table result?

Stank + enemy in the flank/rear,  grind possible? If yes, does Stank turn towards enemy unit? nyou don't turn it but you may grind it

Sounds weird, but good to know 

Letting the HBVG shoot more rounds? With only 24” range I have the idea it often won’t shoot the first round and since my mate usually has some canon hunters in his army it will be in close combat with the third round. use a screen, position a small unit of knight nearby or shoot the warmachine hunters

Perhaps I can place a detachment of Handgunners close to the canons. I'm afraid that knights who intercept enemy war machine hunters, or any close combat that takes place in front of my canon line, will block line of sight, thus rendering them pretty much useless.

EDIT:

Can Steam Gun & Commander fire other units when in CC? steamgun, yes, commander cannot shoot but has 1 standard cc attack

I just read online that in CC the Steam Gun has to roll 2D6 for hits, as stated in BRB p.67. Is that correct?
I must say, the rules for the new Stank could have been more clearer in the army book. But perhaps that was common knowledge around here already 

Report
(mates extensive photo report: http://www.vampirecounts.net/Thread-VC-versus-Empire-2000-points )

Intro
I rolled a 2 for my Light Wizard, which is The Speed of Light spell (+10WS, +10I till next friendly magic phase). A nice spell to have I think, I had my eye on it. But since I only have one Lv1 Wizard and two Warrior Priests and my opponent a Lv4 and a Lv1 I went for the magic missile which has a 5+ casting value. Also my mate used Ethereals for the first time, so that was another reason for me to go with the magic missile. Only other thing I had to fight Ethereals was my Warrior Priests Sword of Swift Slaying (and the Soulfire Prayer I guess).

Some pics of the starting layout:
http://www.myspace.com/my/photos/album/1657145

My canons on the far left, Stank and horde in the middle, Knights and Greatswords on the side. The plan was for the Knights to go around the tower for a flank/rear charge, but in the end it took too long for them to get in action. And the zombies were too slow to get near my Greatswords, so my first time fielding them didn’t result in any action (but the Handgunners detachment had fun). I get to start first!


Battle report (not fully accurate/detailed)

Turn 1 Empire:
Light Wizard got dispelled

Hellblaster out of range
Great Canon shoots Crypt Horrors, rolls miscast on bounce
Steam Tank canon hits Crypt Horrors (2 ranks)
Roll 2x 4, both hits, 5 wounds

Movement of infantry
Keeping knights in the back

Forgot Steam Commander pistol (AGAIN and AGAIN!)


Turn 1 VC:
Invocation of Nehek dispelled
Vanhel’s Danse Macabre  opponent rolled 3x1 and 1x2 (needed 12+)

Movement


Turn 2 Empire:
10 handgunners kill 4 zombies
Steam Gun hits 3 Crypt Horrors, kills 1 (no allocation of wounds)
Steam Canon rolls misfire, 3 wounds (meh)
HBVG kills 8 Graveguards (BS Master Engineer, rolled 10, 4, 10!)
Great Canon kills Fell Bat (2 wounds), 2 Grave Guards

Turn 2 VC:
Spirits Hosts charge Stank, fail (rolls 2x 1, ouch)
Fell Bat charges HBVG, successfully
Crypt Horrors charge swordsmen detachment successfully (Hold)

Hellish figure dispelled
Invocation of Nehek on Crypt Horrors dispel scroll (phew!)
Vanhel’s Danse Macabre succeeded, Fell Bat moves towards Great Canon

Fell Bat wounds HBVG
HBVG wounds 1 Fell Bat

Swordsmen wound 1 Crypt Horror
Crypt Horror wounds 2 Swordmen (1 saved by Warrior Priest Ward Save prayer)


Turn 3 Empire:
Handgunner shoot 3 Crypt Ghouls
Stank Commander wounds 1 Crypt Horror
Great Canon rolls 2x2, doesn’t make it to the bats (meh)

Stank 13 grind/impact hits, 9 wounds on Crypt Horrors (nice!)
Swordsmen don’t wound Crypt Horror
Crypt Horror wounds 3 Swordsmen
CR for Empire

BSB + Warrior Priest + Horde halberdiers has 20 hit. Grave Guards 15 wounds, 3 saves, 12 killed. CR +7


Turn 3 VC:
Spirit Host charges Stank, successfully this time (meh)
Invocation of Nehek on Grave Guards irresistible force, dice = 6 (ouch) + Lv 4 = 10 Grave Guards resurrected

Spirit Host wounds Stank (armour save roll 1 )


Turn 4 Empire:
Swordsmen flank charge zombies + Master Necromancer successfully (needed 12”, got 13”), 3 kills
White Wolf charge zombies successfully (needed 10”, got 11”), 7 kills

Handgunners kill 4 Ghouls

Vampire Counts throw the towel, victory for The Empire!



 
Some points that spring to mind of this battle:
+ Dice roll. Really, I don’t recall when my dice roll was so good. Had a miscast with the Stank canon once and  the Great Canon wasn’t that lucky most of the time, but aside from that I can’t complain at all in this department.
+ HBVG. First round it was out of range, second round I rolled a 10, 4 and 10 for 24 shots which was super! Third round he got in close combat with a Fell Bat (but survived till the end lol).
+ Handgunners (10x). Against T3 and T4 monster they did quite some shooting and not too shabby this time.
+ first time I field a Wizard, and thankful for the dispel scroll! (which was pretty much his only use, aside from wasting my opponents dispel dice to free the way for WP prayers).
+ I didn’t like the look of the Crypt Horrors, but the Steam Tank (and one successful  Great Canon shot) got rid of that unit. I think things would’ve looked bad for me if that got into CC with my infantry (and making way for a flank attack of his infantry)
+ Horde Halberdiers beat horde Grave Guards (WS3, S4, T4, Great Weapons, Heavy Armour)

- Right flank with Greatswords and Knights pretty much didn’t do anything. Knights had a long way to go with the flank charge plan and I kept my Greatswords behind so my Handgunners detachment could blast away (which went pretty well). Vampire Counts units move slowly with no march allowed when too far from the General.
- Ethereal enemies. He had only one unit and I was lucky his first charge on my Stank failed (2x 1, lol), but after a successful charge, I don’t know how to get my Stank free from an Ethereal enemy…
- Magic phases meh. His Lv4 Wizard makes it hard to cast successfully
- No use for the magic standards/magic armour/talismans


Any tips on:
To beat Ethereal enemies, or stop them from tarpitting Stank for example? (can Ruby Ring be used multiple times, not one use only?)
Letting the HBVG shoot more rounds? With only 24” range I have the idea it often won’t shoot the first round and since my mate usually has some canon hunters in his army it will be in close combat with the third round.
Anything else you can think of?


Questions (some might be obvious, but this is everything I wrote down)
Does detachment use parent units SB/BSB in Close Combat for CR?
Can Steam Gun & Commander fire other units when in CC?
In which phase do the Stank Grind/Impact Hits resolve?
Soul Fire hits command group & hero when in base contact (possible killing the Standard Bearer directly)?
Warrior Priest Battle Prayer can be dispelled?
Can the Steam Gun be fired on a large enemy target if there’s a friendly unit behind the large target in the line of fire (of the breath template)?
Each wound can be saved by Regeneration? (for example, Crypt Horror has 3 wounds total, gets 5 wounds from a Canon, can he roll 5 times for Regeneration?)
Each spell can only be cast once during each magic phase?
Dispel is also + Wizard level?
Is a ward save allowed with irresistible force spell?
Does Stank commander do close combat?
WS Stank = WS commander?
Wizard in CC, which spells (not) allowed?
Stank + enemy in the flank/rear,  grind possible? If yes, does Stank turn towards enemy unit?
(Heroic) Killing Blow against Stank possible?
Master Engineers don't have the Extra Crewman ability anymore?

Master Engineers don't have the Extra Crewman ability anymore?