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Author Topic: Real World Counterparts  (Read 9293 times)

Offline Zooooch

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Real World Counterparts
« on: May 17, 2006, 06:12:43 PM »
Orcs & Goblins: The Scottish highland raiders, prone to freezing in combat, and constantly fighting a better equipped army

Empire: The Holy Roman Empire, late period (modern day Germany area), Advanced tactics and Technology for the time, fighting chaos and lawlessness on all sides, also, who else has titles starting with "Von"

Bretonnia: The French Knights, and British Pennantry warriors of the 14th century (hundred years war), Peasants with bows firing accurately, who else but the British. Along with powerfull knights representing the French Nobility

Beasts Of Chaos: The Goths and Continental Celts of Central Europe, pre Roman Empire, present during the Empire

Kislev: Czar? Powerfull Horsemen? Northern Wastes: these all point toward Russia and Poland

Lizardmen: Incas, Mayans, and Aztecs of Central America (self explanatory)

Dwarfs: would be Scottish loyalists (loyal to england), with their clan structure

Tomb Kings would be the classical Egyptians, Pyramids, desert tombs, chariots, tonnes of gold

The High-Elves could be the classical Greeks, with the long spears and heavy calvary

Tilea: May have been the Swiss, with Pikes and Crossbows being the predominant weapon, along with a mercenary attitude

Cathay: China/Japan from the descriptions (warrior monks, golden palaces, large trade profit)

Araby: could be the Renaissance Egyptians, or the Arabs of the same time

DOW, Dark Elves, Wood Elves, Ogre Kingdoms, Vampire Counts, Skaven, and Hordes of Chaos seem to defy analysis.

Post any thoughts or additions,

Zooooch
« Last Edit: May 19, 2006, 07:38:26 AM by Midaski »
Live in the past, the present is too polouted.

Re: Real Wrold Counterparts
« Reply #1 on: May 17, 2006, 06:21:25 PM »
NOW I see...  :-o

Welcome aboard and please don't mind any sarcastic remarks...

Offline Fafnir

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Re: Real Wrold Counterparts
« Reply #2 on: May 17, 2006, 06:24:51 PM »
Orcs&Gobbos: The scotish highland raiders, prone to freezing in combat,

Well, it can get pretty nippy in Scotland in the winter. :-D
EDIT: see Africa for more examples ...

Offline Midaski

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Re: Real Wrold Counterparts
« Reply #3 on: May 17, 2006, 06:45:51 PM »
@Zooooch:

I have no idea what is your native language as you have chosen not to complete your location in your profile.

So little initial sympathy.

Secondly we provide a spellcheck facility for you when you post - which you seem to have also failed to use.

The post quality will have to improve or your stay here might be limited.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2006, 09:13:03 PM by Midaski »
Quote from: Gneisenau
Quote
Metal to Finecast - It is mostly a swap of medium. 

You mean they will be using Ouija boards instead of Tarot cards for their business plans from now on?

Offline Midaski

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Re: Real World Counterparts
« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2006, 07:40:38 AM »
Ok Zooooch has worked on his original post and done a positive edit, so the nasty man has relented.

Having said that this is one of those old topics that has been 'done' before, and provokes the usual love/hate reaction.
 :wink:
Quote from: Gneisenau
Quote
Metal to Finecast - It is mostly a swap of medium. 

You mean they will be using Ouija boards instead of Tarot cards for their business plans from now on?

Offline Donnachaidh

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Re: Real World Counterparts
« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2006, 10:13:35 AM »
Having said that this is one of those old topics that has been 'done' before, and provokes the usual love/hate reaction.
 :wink:

Urm, yes.

Quote
Dwarfs: would be Scottish loyalists (loyal to england), with their clan structure

Pish, pish, pish, and more pish.  What in the name of Alasdair Maccolla is that meant to mean?

Dwarf's are Nordic (ish) in style.
  • Vendal style armour
  • Runes

Appart from all the firepower which harkes back to the day when Dwarf's came in two flavours - Imperial (guns and stuff) and Norse (berserker's etc)

There was no such thing as a "Scots army loyal to England" before James VI of Scotland became James I of England and when his Son became King he ended up waging war on Scotland - the git
Without so much as a damn your eyes for the inconvenience

Offline Donnachaidh

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Re: Real World Counterparts
« Reply #6 on: May 19, 2006, 10:20:30 AM »
The High-Elves could be the classical Greeks, with the long spears and heavy calvary

Not as I see it.  Greek cavalry wasn't that strong and didn't have the armoured horses on the same level.

If I was to look at a counterpart, I would look at Late Roman eastern empire/Byzantine empire.

A lot more similarities, but still purely guesswork
Without so much as a damn your eyes for the inconvenience

Offline Demonslayer

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Re: Real World Counterparts
« Reply #7 on: May 19, 2006, 11:19:56 AM »
Kislev: tartars.
High Elves: Atlantis. C'mon they live on an island in the middle of the sea. An island, I hasten to add, does NOT exist (anymore?) today. AND high elf culture is very civilised, as was the atlantic culture.
VC: Gee, I dunno, maybe, Transylvania or something? Like, with that Vlad Tepesh Dracul guy? The one all vampires have been based on? The one using all his troops in very cruel ways? Like a vampires sending out mindless soldiers? :roll:

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Offline Konrad von Richtmark

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Re: Real World Counterparts
« Reply #8 on: May 19, 2006, 02:24:57 PM »
Apart from the ones already refuted by others,

Tilea: May have been the Swiss, with Pikes and Crossbows being the predominant weapon, along with a mercenary attitude

I'd rather say that Tilea is more based on Machiavellian Italy: Rivalrous city-states, some being principalities, others being republics. Just look at the city names, it should give you some clues. As well as that of a renowned engineer from there.
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Offline Zooooch

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Re: Real World Counterparts
« Reply #9 on: May 19, 2006, 08:01:43 PM »
I rather thought that the runes of the Dwarfs were reminiscent of the old Celtic writing of "Ogham". Secondly, Scottish troops fought alongside England since the fall of the Roman Empire, they were just so unpopular that modern History rarely includes this fact. The Celts also had some of the most wide ranging style of armour in the Medevil Ages, being as they were almost the best Metal workers, you may find that the Goths and Vendals coppied their workings. (a little known fact: the Celts inhabited manland Europe until the romans kicked them out)

Zooooch
Live in the past, the present is too polouted.

Offline RGB

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Re: Real World Counterparts
« Reply #10 on: May 20, 2006, 04:25:10 AM »
This is a fun game to play, but you always always always have to remember that GW does not draw directly from historical entities but from pop-culture percetion of said historical entities. Also, as it is a fantasy game I think it is more than fair to associate an army with a "Real World Counterpart" is the mythological basis for a WH army comes from a particular country - even if the actual soldiers of the country never looked or fought like that.

--------

So this is my reading of things:

Kislev - think Russian Empire in the late 1700s. Territorially. Now set everything back 200 years or so. There's Kislev for you.

SRiK clearly points out that Kislev=Russia, what with Norse-derived ruling houses, the Ungol Yoke, and the colonisation beyond the Urals ahem World's Edge. The 6th ed. Kislev is a gentler blend of Russian/Cossack, Polish, Tatar and (perhaps) Lithuanian. With bits and pieces of other things. Like Praag. And War Wagons.

Tilea - well, clearly it's Italy, when Italy was full of independent city states and not yet divided between France and Spain. They've got the Borgias (Lucrezzia as the Belladonna and Cesare as the Besieger) and even the names are easy. Verezzo = Venezia, Remas = Roma, Miragliano = Milano. Leonardo is very easily recognizeable as Italian.

Our beloved Empire - well, as the best candidate for a good historical match, Empire = HRE, for too many reasons to detail here.

Bretonnia - people always get into a lot of arguments of English vs. French, but all that needs to happen is that they need to step back a bit. Modern England and France with their percieved differences are not at all similar to how things were back then, which is what 5th/6th ed. Bretonnia represents.

Even King Arthur's story, Briton legend though it may be, actually came to England in French, written by a French author, from a Breton source. The two were very entwined quite significantly; so it's fair to say that Bretonnia is both France and England, but before the 1400s.

-----------------

As to the Fantasy races - VC.

Lahmians are Classical. Lahmia comes from Greek.
Von Carsteins are Transylvanian Germans, plonked right into Slavic legend.
Strigoi and Strigany - clearly, Eastern Europe, Tsigany and so on.

Blood Dragons seem hard to pinpoint, however. But in general, Vampires come from the "Balkans" and it is the same in WH.

Dwarfs:

Clearly Germanic and more precisely Norse. Runes, armour style, no horsemen, shieldwall tactics, the names! Point me to a born and raised Celt called Snorri Snorrisson and I will don a bear costume and dance at the spring fair.

Dark Elves and High Elves:

This is a tricky one. They clearly are a single unit, and exist as a single entity in fantasy fiction; they are Seelie and Unseelie and their equivalents from Germanic and later Gael-derived mythology of Britain. So you could say all Elves are British, in some sense. Even the Wood Elves (who have a god called Adam and Brian if you translate it from Gaelic).

However, the HE and DE fighting styles and some creatures in the DE bestiary are very classical Greek. Except the ranged weapons.

So basically, you can classify them depending on where you start. Fighting style and design style, HE are Classical, DE are also. But DE have a fair share of nondistinct "Oriental" influence (The curvy blades, ninja assassins, repeater crossbows, Baode Luan - like Black Arks) while the HE have a bit more Britain in them. In terms of mythology, both are British with narrative emplotments and several monsters lifted directly from classical literature. Including Atlantis.

Scaven - like the Beastmen they're lifted from a pan-european fear of the dark and furry toothed things that dwell therein. Except Scaven are set later on in history and in fact stem more from German literature than anywhere else. "Nutcracker", "Pied Piper" and the story of Bishop Hatto from Mainz come to mind. Plus there's like, the Rats of NIMH in there, and some Chinese overtones in the sense of the silly triads and the bad kung-fu/criminal gang movies, what with the delinquent clannishness etc.

So the Scaven are also German, with other influences. Tehee.


Hordes of Chaos: this one is EASY. They're Eurasian Steppe Tribes. Dolgans for example are a real people and live even today in the Russian Federation's north. Kurgans are burial mounds of all these steppe people. Hey, Abbnett gets it right, for example, in Riders of the Dead. The "Hung" and so on are "Oriental steppe people". Norscan Chaos peoples are clearly Norse, but not in the lengthy-poetry-making, taking-each-other-to-court-over-a-cow kind like they were in real life, more the pop-culture Vikings.

However, to make things completely simple, HoC are just Conan's Evil Cousins spread over all the Real World areas that the average English speaker cares nothing for.

Ogre Kingdoms - again, Ogres are English. Despite their Shrek-esque sculpts and their Manchu Wok moustache and Mongolie Grill All You Can Eat on Saturday Afternoon that passes for a central theme in the army book, and so on, Ogres and Giants in WH are a uniquely British interpretation of them, and the horrid comedy accents also provene from there. Ditto Orks and Goblins - they must stem from SOMEWHERE in the British Isles, given their origin in Tolkien's works, their "comedy" accents and all other things like that.

Lastly, TK are Egyptians as in Mummy Returns and not as in 1001 Nights. "Nuff said.

Chaos Dwarfs are a very interesting race and seem to have some generally Mesopotamian inspiration. If they make a comeback as Conan's Evil Cousin's Stunted Sidekicks, I shall weep and gnash my teeth.
------

So to sum up.

Elves of all Sorts - Vaguely British with veneer from other places.
Orks and Ogres - British
VC - "Eastern European"
Kislev - the lands of endless snow, ice and vodka. And bears.
Empire - HRE Germans; Scaven are from Germany too.
CD - Assyrians/Babylonians etc.
TK - Ancient Egyptians
Dwarfs - Norse and Germanic in general
BoC - Dark Age European plus 19th-20th c. pulp fiction
HoC - Eurasian Nomads; some are Norse.
Araby - 1001 Nights Arabs and other Islamic areas
Brets - Anglo-Norman, and French.
Lizards - Mesoamericans
Tilea - Italy
Estalia - Spain.

Well, that's that. It's no surprise the British are over-represented, given that most modern fantasy is British in origin and preconcieved notions. That and GW are HQd at Nottingham.
[in the good of life]

Offline Zooooch

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Re: Real World Counterparts
« Reply #11 on: May 20, 2006, 04:52:50 AM »
I must agree with all of the above, with the exception of one item. The Nordic Peoples were descendent's of the Continental Celts, though it is hard to imagine, the Celtic people inhabited all lands from the British Islands, down to Spain, north to Russia (present day) and east all the way to India. The Celts were later displace by their cousins, the Goths, and by an expanding HRE. The Goths and HRE drove the Celts west and north until they ended up being mainly predominant in the Areas of Western France (Normandy), Briton&Scotland, and in the northern Reaches of Europe (Finland, Denmark). In Finland and Denmark they culturally evolved into a vary unique brand of Civilization, the Viking, it was the Viking that later displaced the tribes in Normandy, but kept their Name (Normans). The Continental Celts and their sub-civilizations used an evolved form of Ogram, this language took the Runes of Ogram to a new level. Hence the "Norse" runes are actually Celtic in nature. As for the Names, i must admit that the writers took some liberty in choosing a diverse lot of them.

Zooooch
Live in the past, the present is too polouted.

Offline RGB

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Re: Real World Counterparts
« Reply #12 on: May 20, 2006, 05:14:55 AM »
Um.

You know, er. Not that I want to cause trouble but:

1) All WH dwarf names are Germanic. All of them. Except the Nameless One.
2) Germanic and "Celt" language groups are immediately distinct and one can assume the people speaking them were likewise distinct. The Romans certainly saw them as distinct.
3) It's Ogham, not Ogram
4) Runes, according to Snorri Sturlsson, were given to the Aesa when they were still in the steppes of Russia and en route to Pickled Herring Land. It's possible they are derived from Turcic alphabets of the area which are in turn derived from Greek.

Celts are not "Any Indo-Europeans" as you seem to be insisting. They are a specific European grouping and despite some similarities in weaving patterns with the Tokharians of Western China, they probably became a distinct language group already after settling in Europe. The farthest East they'd have gone in any numbers would be Galatia.

This is all easily available information, and wikipedia is a good place to start.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2006, 07:32:51 AM by RGB »
[in the good of life]

Offline Zooooch

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Re: Real World Counterparts
« Reply #13 on: May 20, 2006, 05:26:22 AM »
Language is not the only thing that classifies a group. Canadians, excellent example, forgeting official languages, their is no particularly "Canadian" language, in Ontario, it's English, in Quebec it's French, in Saskatchewan its Ukrainian, and in BC it's Chinese.

Their are many Historical Theories in contest of where the Celts came from, and who their decedents were, I happen to believe this one. If you believe otherwise, thats opinion and I won't hold it against you. Nobody can be truly wrong at this point, just in a smaller belief of and interpretation of facts. Hey, it's the soapbox, I'm just stating my opinion. (my bad on the labeling of the Celtic Runes, It's four am where I am right now.)

Zooooch

(my, this has gotten a little off topic, hasn't it?)
Live in the past, the present is too polouted.

Offline Fafnir

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Re: Real World Counterparts
« Reply #14 on: May 20, 2006, 06:58:12 AM »
Eh...I just have to shoot some of this down right away:

First of all, Finland was never a part of the Nordic civilisation, never extensively settled by Germanic peoples until the Swedish influence of the Middle Ages, at the earliest. The native Finno-Ugric peoples of Finland have been archaeologically estimated to have lived in the area for 10.000 years, i.e. since the ice receded. It is postulated that they were the first settlers of the region, together with the Sami peoples. Their's is a Uralic language and has little to do with the Indo-European languages of Europe. (RBG: I don't know enough about the Celtic ethnicity to argue against you, but Celtic language at least, is Indo-European. Proto-celtic is a destinct branch, an early branch, but a branch nonetheless.)

As to the Celts, it is true that there exist many theories concerning the Celts;whether they originated in the Caspian region, how long their "original" Proto-Celtic language was spoken, which "Celtic Culture" (Unetic, Tumulus and Urnfield cultures etc) of Central Europe is the oldest or the "original" etc etc. But no serious, recognised archaeologist claims that the Celts ever settled Scandinavia. The exact nature of the original inhabitants of the Scandinavian penninsula is debated, but not only had they lived there for much long than the Celts had lived in Europe, they were also supplanted and assimilated by the Germanic migrations to such a degree that a discussion of Celtic influence on Germanic languages and culture vis a vis inspiration for Dwarfs is moot, even if it is true.

And there is no 'Viking' civilisation, it is something you do and something you are while you're doing it. EDIT: Similar to Crusaders. There is no 'Crusader' civilisation, but there were Crusaders, and they were crusading.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2006, 07:01:49 AM by Fafnir »
EDIT: see Africa for more examples ...

Offline RGB

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Re: Real World Counterparts
« Reply #15 on: May 20, 2006, 07:28:14 AM »
Oh, no, what I meant is, "Celts" are a meaningful term only in Europe past a certain time period. Before that they were part of some kind of more broad language group.

I never denied that they were IE, what I meant to say was that Zoooch's post says the extent of "Celts" is far greater than historically certain. His "Celts" from India to Spain probably stems from classifying any non-mediterranean IE group as "Celts". But not all IE people even in Europe were "Celts" by any stretch of imagination.

--------------

Incidentally, I don't claim that the Norse actually migrated through Scythia or picked up the Runes there. But it is very likely that both Runes and Ogham have, ultimately, a Phoenician origin, via any of the alphabets that existed in the late antiquity, and runes may pre-date Ogham. Or vice versa. Or they may have independent origins.

Snorri Sturlsson was theorising about Runes and Odin anyway.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2006, 07:52:26 AM by RGB »
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Offline Fafnir

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Re: Real World Counterparts
« Reply #16 on: May 20, 2006, 07:36:02 AM »
Oh, my bad, I missed the "Any". :roll:
EDIT: see Africa for more examples ...

Offline Zooooch

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Re: Real World Counterparts
« Reply #17 on: May 20, 2006, 04:32:50 PM »
Never posting when I'm tired again, here are the corrections to my above posts:

-Vikings were a culture, not a civilization
-Finland and Scandinavia were not settled by Celts
-The Celts were not a Civilization when they stretched from India to Spain
-The Goths came after the Celts and were influenced by them, they were not descendent's of them

If I've missed one, i apologies.

Zooooch
Live in the past, the present is too polouted.

Offline McKnight

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Re: Real World Counterparts
« Reply #18 on: May 20, 2006, 08:25:27 PM »
the Vikings were a people and there for a civilization.
Crusaders were not a people but soldiers in an army who fought for a cause. The crusaders together didn't have their own land, but came from different countires.
Where the vikings fought not for a cause but for looting and trading, and to get protection money  :-D
The vikings did have countries (Denmark, Sweden and Norway)
The Vikings did not just fight, but also traded, explored and farmed their lands. (first to spot America)
The Vikings also had their own culture, laws and heritage, which crusaders did not.

This is what characterizes a civilization

Literally, a civilization is a complex society, as distinguished from a simpler society. Everyone lives in a society and a culture, but not everyone lives in a civilization. Historically, civilizations have shared some or all of the following traits:

    * Intensive agricultural techniques, such as the use of human power, crop rotation, and irrigation. This has enabled farmers to produce a surplus of food that is not necessary for their own subsistence.
    * A significant portion of the population that does not devote most of its time to producing food. This permits a division of labor. Those who do not occupy their time in producing food may instead focus their efforts in other fields, such as industry, war, science or religion. This is possible because of the food surplus described above.
    * The gathering of some of these non-food producers into permanent settlements, called cities.
    * A form of social organization. This can be a chiefdom, in which the chieftain of one noble family or clan rules the people; or a state society, in which the ruling class is supported by a government or bureaucracy. Political power is concentrated in the cities.
    * The institutionalized control of food by the ruling class, government or bureaucracy.
    * The establishment of complex, formal social institutions such as organized religion and education, as opposed to the less formal traditions of other societies.
    * Development of complex forms of economic exchange. This includes the expansion of trade and may lead to the creation of money and markets.
    * The accumulation of more material possessions than in simpler societies.
    * Development of new technologies by people who are not busy producing food. In many early civilizations, metallurgy was an important advancement.
    * Advanced development of the arts, including writing.

That went a bit off topic hehe  :-P


I think that HE are "from" Atlantis, because of their magical powers and sweet looking armour.
The VC would possible be around Romania or Transylvania (around there :-P )
Dwarves would be in Norway, Sweden and Finland after my oppinion.
But i don't think one should compare the two worlds, because they are different in many ways
"Me? I'm practically perfect in every way!"- Rufas the eccentric.
Rufas had Two Ton Sally. I have Silicon Sally!
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Offline Fafnir

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Re: Real World Counterparts
« Reply #19 on: May 20, 2006, 09:03:45 PM »
the Vikings were a people and there for a civilization.
Crusaders were not a people but soldiers in an army who fought for a cause. The crusaders together didn't have their own land, but came from different countires.
Where the vikings fought not for a cause but for looting and trading, and to get protection money  :-D
The vikings did have countries (Denmark, Sweden and Norway)
The Vikings did not just fight, but also traded, explored and farmed their lands. (first to spot America)
The Vikings also had their own culture, laws and heritage, which crusaders did not.

This is what characterizes a civilization

This is a common misconception, and a forgivable one at that, but one with which I have a particular pedantic pet peeve.

There isn't and has never been a "Viking" people, or a "Viking" civilisation akin to for instance the Roman people and the Roman civilisation or the Korean people and the Korean civilisation. There has been a Norse people and a Norse civilisation and while interchangable in popular culture, the two are not the same. The word "Viking" derives from the concept of "going a-viking", the process by which Norse warriors outfitted themselves to raid and trade in lands foreign to them and thus not under Norse law. Similar to a crusader a Norse warrior raiding the coast of Scotland was a Viking, but his wife back home was not. A Norseman sailing west to discover new lands in which to either raid or trade was a Viking, but his father on the farm back home was not (though he might have been some time during his life).

The terms "Viking" and "Norse" are interchangable in popular culture, in particular in the English speaking world, but if one is to be correct the two are not at all the same. It is a common misconception born of popular culture, much like the belief that Vikings had horns on their helmets, or that they were stronger than other people.
EDIT: see Africa for more examples ...

Offline McKnight

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Re: Real World Counterparts
« Reply #20 on: May 20, 2006, 09:35:14 PM »
hmm You seem to have inlightened me.  :mrgreen:
It is hard to see the difference though, or at least for me hehe. Never the less it is an interessting subject and i must study this when i have the time :-)

I have always been raised with the word Vikings and not norse, maybe because english is my second language.

The horns on the helmets where only used at ceremonies or not at all.
I personally think that the people were told by the christians that the vikings had horns on their helmet because of their pagan beliefs, and that way symboled as the devil. That making the christian people hostile towards them.  But thats just my thought.
"Me? I'm practically perfect in every way!"- Rufas the eccentric.
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EuroBashes attended: 1

Offline jack

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Re: Real World Counterparts
« Reply #21 on: May 20, 2006, 10:28:09 PM »
   Fafnir: as for the Norse\Vikings not being stronger  ,I just don't know.

 I did an exchange with Norwegian army years ago;and I can attest that the smallest guy in our host unit towered over our biggest man.

While hardly a conclusive study ,you have to admit there are a lot of pretty damn big and strong Scandinavians[witness the world strongman competitions].

While I'm on the topic of racial profiling:where did they hide the ugly women in Norway,because I never saw one.

  Please take this in the light hearted tone it was mean't in.
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Offline Zooooch

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Re: Real World Counterparts
« Reply #22 on: May 20, 2006, 11:04:16 PM »
I'm glad someone took world history in high-school.

Zooooch
Live in the past, the present is too polouted.

Offline McKnight

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Re: Real World Counterparts
« Reply #23 on: May 21, 2006, 10:14:47 AM »
hehe Jack the norweigans dont have women, they come out of the stones  :-P
Hmm I cant choose history on my school, because it is mainly a math/IT highschool. :x
"Me? I'm practically perfect in every way!"- Rufas the eccentric.
Rufas had Two Ton Sally. I have Silicon Sally!
EuroBashes attended: 1

Offline Zooooch

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Re: Real World Counterparts
« Reply #24 on: May 21, 2006, 01:31:26 PM »
Just to point out, if you were in the army, it would make seance that the toughest would be their.

Zooooch
Live in the past, the present is too polouted.