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Author Topic: Ways to improve the GoE  (Read 19814 times)

Offline Finlay

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Re: Ways to improve the GoE
« Reply #25 on: November 17, 2008, 08:18:12 AM »
Philly never said he was perfect just that hes still a valid and useful option.

*back away before Philly comes back*
you are wrong though.
to have any sort of decent magic defense, you need the AL.
or max out hero slots on 2 wizards and a warrior priest.
I don't care about the rules.

Pass the machete.

Offline Shadowlord

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Re: Ways to improve the GoE
« Reply #26 on: November 17, 2008, 08:20:55 AM »
you are wrong though.
to have any sort of decent magic defense, you need the AL.
or max out hero slots on 2 wizards and a warrior priest.

Yes and no.

Empire have a few items that serves that purpose so the general can be used.

But in the end, pure rule wise, as you say the AL is one of the best lords in the game on his ride.
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Offline Fandir Nightshade

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Re: Ways to improve the GoE
« Reply #27 on: November 17, 2008, 08:45:42 AM »
Hmm but if you drop in the war wagon where the AL receives a 4+ Ward save another bound spell and an ward save protectet unbreakable chariot with 5 T 5 wounds. If the griffon would come for +100 points the General also would be back in.

As he is he is third best choice in my view. You can make the AL even better on survivabilty because he can heal his own wounds each phase via prayer and improve his units even more by making them unbreakable or giving the unit champions and characters re rolls to hit and wound which is not so bad on a first knight in an inner circle unit either. To stick to the general is a fluff choice nothing more the points you save on the General have to be put in magical stuff to grant the magic defense back again and magic resistance is not as good as dispel dice.

I like the 18 inch rule, and greatswords as core.

Offline Finlay

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Re: Ways to improve the GoE
« Reply #28 on: November 17, 2008, 08:58:18 AM »
there is no reason to take the general other than cheapness, and in reality for the price, the DD the lector gives actually make him cheaper, regardless of the waltar
I don't care about the rules.

Pass the machete.

Offline Fandir Nightshade

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Re: Ways to improve the GoE
« Reply #29 on: November 17, 2008, 09:01:40 AM »
Dispel dice AND two bound spells that donīt hurt either hatred is a disadvantage for infantry units because you can pull them where you want them but in a unit of knights he rocks!


Offline Powder Monkey

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Re: Ways to improve the GoE
« Reply #30 on: November 17, 2008, 09:10:15 AM »
So, Sparkfire, concerning that conservative thing. I quote:

Quote from: Rufus
Also, I can't believe you called me a conservative. That was uncalled for.




GofE

GoTE

GotE

GotE

GOtE


The Elector Count
the Elector


Ching! Your Conservative-O-Meter just reached "1".  :icon_wink:



Your PM was right, after all
I'm pro-monkey. Anyone who isn't is evil.

Offline Mathi Alfblut

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Re: Ways to improve the GoE
« Reply #31 on: November 17, 2008, 09:49:43 AM »
You are amassing, Philly. Everyone agrees upon the GotE, who should by all rhyme and reason, be the most common commander of Empire forces, are the one least useful.

You say he is cheap... Well, how will cheap help against powerdice strong VC army? The General certainly will not help much there, neither against daemons, or would he be of any better use against WoC?
I think your very special gaming enviorment are biasing you, Philly. And your rather singular play style maybe.

The Arch lector is simply best. So what if he costs more, he bring magic defence with him! And the most important thing in Warhammer for me at the moment is magic defence.
So hatred can be used against you? Nevermind, it will help my fellows kill some undead, so much the better. And Undead will not drag you into any traps anyway, as will not daemons either. You have to take them down where they stand and hatred can help you a bit there.

In a comfy enviorment with only all-comer balanced lists facing all-comer balanced list, like the one you seem to be playing in, Philly, the General can still cut it. But in normal enviorments, he is just... cheap. And recent developments seems to signal being able to afford some more soldiers might not be of any real help.

By the way, in an infantry fight, in what way does it help that the general can stay alive, if you loose combat against those VC ahead. You will still break and run for it.

Mind you, I love the idea of a general leading the army, but if I take him, I may not be able to take anything else but people giving magic defence when my mate start picking forth his VC army. Two wizards with Rod of power and 2 scrolls might cut it for a while, but that is only temporary.

I feel you need a steady supply of preferably 6 dispell dice as your basic magical defence, before counting scrolls, going up against a VC army of unknown konfiguration, especially in the magical department.
Oh, and remember GW made it personal, not you!

Offline rufus sparkfire

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Re: Ways to improve the GoE
« Reply #32 on: November 17, 2008, 10:44:07 AM »
Ching! Your Conservative-O-Meter just reached "1".  :icon_wink:



Your PM was right, after all

Ah, but in 4th and 5th edition, the equivalent character was called a general of the empire. Only in 6th edition was he an Elector Count.

So in fact, all of the others are the conservatives!  :icon_razz:
Hey, I could still beat up a woman!
If I wanted to.

Offline Johan Willhelm

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Re: Ways to improve the GoE
« Reply #33 on: November 17, 2008, 10:45:02 AM »
So in fact, all of the others are the conservatives!  :icon_razz:

You take that back!  :ph34r:  :happy:
Rufas the Eccentric:
Quote
Some times there will be threads on controversial subjects . . . Reasonable people can disagree about these things . . . It is important to not make personal attacks or get drawn in to personal attacks.

Be it ethics or muppets. Rufas was a good man.

الني

Offline rufus sparkfire

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Re: Ways to improve the GoE
« Reply #34 on: November 17, 2008, 10:49:16 AM »
No way!

Blame it on the monkey.
Hey, I could still beat up a woman!
If I wanted to.

Offline Johan Willhelm

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Re: Ways to improve the GoE
« Reply #35 on: November 17, 2008, 10:55:48 AM »
No way!

Blame it on the monkey.

That's your answer to everything!
Rufas the Eccentric:
Quote
Some times there will be threads on controversial subjects . . . Reasonable people can disagree about these things . . . It is important to not make personal attacks or get drawn in to personal attacks.

Be it ethics or muppets. Rufas was a good man.

الني

Offline rufus sparkfire

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Re: Ways to improve the GoE
« Reply #36 on: November 17, 2008, 10:56:37 AM »
I'm pro-monkey. Anyone who isn't is evil.
Hey, I could still beat up a woman!
If I wanted to.

Offline Johan Willhelm

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Re: Ways to improve the GoE
« Reply #37 on: November 17, 2008, 10:58:45 AM »
I'm pro-monkey. Anyone who isn't is evil.

Do I detect an oblique Back Table reference?  :happy:
Rufas the Eccentric:
Quote
Some times there will be threads on controversial subjects . . . Reasonable people can disagree about these things . . . It is important to not make personal attacks or get drawn in to personal attacks.

Be it ethics or muppets. Rufas was a good man.

الني

Offline Lord Etharion

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Re: Ways to improve the GoE
« Reply #38 on: November 17, 2008, 11:03:43 AM »
The runefang isn't really worth one hundred points though. Not when you only have three attacks and lowish weaponskill.

True enough, although in fairness getting a powerful magic weapon and a full magic items allowance is a pretty neat ability. The exact cost is less important than the practicality of the idea.

I like that - some armies in WAB have rules along those lines ('master strategist'). But I bet we'd hear the usual whining from elf players about how elves are ten billion years old and thus should be best at everything.

But it comes from a magic item *wiggles his fingers* .... it's maaaaaaaaagic, so that's alright.

More pragmatically, elves have elites, we don't. Our need to control the battlefield in order to set up favorable combats is bigger than theirs. Also, no-one listens to whining elves anyway.

I'd like the Elector to be able to take a brace of pistols. Maybe even a repeater pistol or long rifle - if he can't afford to buy one, who can?

Yeah, that'd be sweet. It's kinda like the way warrior priests and arch-lectors, backed by the impossibly wealthy and extrodinarily dwarf-loving church* can't get expensive dwarf-made fullplate.

* I know what you're thinking. Yes, you, reading this right now. No, the post you have in mind is not as funny as you think it is.  :biggriin:
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Quote from: rufus sparkfire
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Offline patsy02

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Re: Ways to improve the GoE
« Reply #39 on: November 17, 2008, 11:12:11 AM »
I'm in favour of: 0-1 greatsword core and 18 inch LD. The latter would reflect the general's experience in commanding troops instead of running around hitting stuff, and the empire's presumably sophisticated and effective command chain.

I just had an idea: Runners. XX(15?) points each, 0-2 models per elector count. Normal human statline, light armour, unbarded horse, pistol, fast cavalry, hand weapon. If kept within the LD range of the general(12") the runner can act as a LD node, allowing anyone within X(12 inches? 8? 6?) of him to use the general's LD as if he was there himself.
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Offline Fandir Nightshade

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Re: Ways to improve the GoE
« Reply #40 on: November 17, 2008, 11:58:11 AM »
Nice idea for a skirmish game but not for something so rank and file and great battle like warhammer.

Perhaps as a unit champion upgrade like the radio team for the 40 K Imperial Guard. As long as your champion is in the generals staff you can use his leadership of 9.

Offline PhillyT

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Re: Ways to improve the GoE
« Reply #41 on: November 17, 2008, 12:03:10 PM »
You are amassing, Philly. Everyone agrees upon the GotE, who should by all rhyme and reason, be the most common commander of Empire forces, are the one least useful.

What am I amassind?  ;)

Quote
You say he is cheap... Well, how will cheap help against powerdice strong VC army?

If two more dispel dice makes THAT much difference, then you weren't in as bad a situation as you thought.

Quote
I think your very special gaming enviorment are biasing you, Philly. And your rather singular play style maybe.

Mathi, you keep referring to my 'very special environment' but you don't explain what that is.  HEre are the rules we have:  No DoW, no special characters.  If thats so special, then I have been in about 5 gaming store in Maine alone where thats the norm.

Quote
The Arch lector is simply best. So what if he costs more, he bring magic defence with him! And the most important thing in Warhammer for me at the moment is magic defence.

It is important, but not as important as people think.  Not in the 2 DD variety anyway.

Quote
In a comfy enviorment with only all-comer balanced lists facing all-comer balanced list, like the one you seem to be playing in, Philly, the General can still cut it. But in normal enviorments, he is just... cheap. And recent developments seems to signal being able to afford some more soldiers might not be of any real help.

We certainly don't play all-comer enviornments.  I play the same basic list, but nobody else does.  We know exactly who we are playing, modify the lists to match, then try to smash the enemy.  If you have read my posts, I actually argue against all comer tournaments since it favors one build type armylist.

Quote
By the way, in an infantry fight, in what way does it help that the general can stay alive, if you loose combat against those VC ahead. You will still break and run for it.

How does the AL help you in that case?  Challenge with the GoTE, use his high AS and ward to minimize damage, survive until you can challenege the VC and win on CR.

Quote
Mind you, I love the idea of a general leading the army, but if I take him, I may not be able to take anything else but people giving magic defence when my mate start picking forth his VC army. Two wizards with Rod of power and 2 scrolls might cut it for a while, but that is only temporary.

Again, its only two more DD.  You aren;t getting crap for magic off against power dice horde armies, so his added magic is a waste.  The best way to deal with it is to take out the wizards, whether you are using a GoTE or an AL.

Quote
I feel you need a steady supply of preferably 6 dispell dice as your basic magical defence, before counting scrolls, going up against a VC army of unknown konfiguration, especially in the magical department.

You shouldn't need more than 3 turns of magic defense before things start coming together.

Redflag:  Yes, the AL can get the same through the AOMI and the Relic, but thats 70 points of items for a toothless character.  He is 200 points by then.  With the Full plate, a warhorse, barding, enchanted shield, relic, icon, and sword of might, the GoTE gives a bump in combat, makes the unit immune to fear, and makes him VERY hard to kill with wounds.  He works great and offers a LD9, which is all I need to win.

Phil
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Offline Crimsonsphinx

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Re: Ways to improve the GoE
« Reply #42 on: November 17, 2008, 12:09:47 PM »
For me the general has slipped from first choice in 6th edition to 3rd choice lord in 7th. 

Reasons for me are as follows;

1.  No griffon banner.  This was probably the only reason to include the general before.
2.  Mighty characters in new armies.  Lacks the statistics to positively generate decent CR.
3.  TGM can now lead infantry.  As your elector was going to be mounted anyway, might as well take this.

If the Runefang was better, perhaps say 50pts then I might actually take it.  Actually make it 45 points and then combine it with laurels, and I would say he was worth it :)

Alternatively I would rename him elector, and give him a Runefang as base equipment.  Make him about 140 points base, and bar him from taking other magic weapons.  Still keep 100pt allowance.
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Offline Fandir Nightshade

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Re: Ways to improve the GoE
« Reply #43 on: November 17, 2008, 12:19:50 PM »
Philly if you start with magic items diversity the AL even gets better the Van Horstmanns Spec looks on him even better than on the General and against non challenge opponents you very seldon cut something out with three attacks S 5 anyway so in challenges the AL is better against rank and file the General is slightly better but as the AL gives hatred to the whole unit in greatswords and knights you get re rolls on more than 1 additional attack granting you in a unit with 5 knights with champion 6 attack with re roll in the stats as our knights are low on WS and hit almost everything on 4+ you have when the AL also strikes with his two attacks 8 attacks with re rolls that makes 6 hits the General does in the same unit 9 attacks with 4,5 hits. in greatswords the same the only place where the General excels in close combat is with swordsmen. So the AL bolsters not only his own fighting skills with the re roll he improves the whole unit. Drop in re rolls for hit and wound with the prayer it even gets better. If you switch profiles with a Vampire Lord it really gets nasty.

Other equipment options the AL doesnīt get the plate armour but with armour of dawn he gets the 1+ re roll armour save and can pray for the 4+ ward save AND try to heal himself each turn taking away 4 dispel dice from the opponent if he wants to dispel or 2 dispel dice and 2 power dice in his offense phase with his additional 2 dispel dice you can mount some magical defense. The War Altar for 100 points is way too cheap but still an option for the Lector that is barred from the General and another reason for the Lector. The Griffon compared to the War Alter is quite bad.

Offline blurred

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Re: Ways to improve the GoE
« Reply #44 on: November 17, 2008, 12:33:02 PM »
I have to agree that the General is definitely a second-rate choice nowadays. I almost always go for the Arch lector as two dispel dice and two bound spells is just too good to pass (hatred is also nice with knights and greatswords).

However, I wouldn't change the General (although I like the 'greatswords as core' suggestion). The banners should be better for his ancient heirloom to really have an effect: warbanner is pretty much the only viable one to give to your state troops. Here's a few suggestions:

1) Lower the Daemonslayer Banner to 30 points and let infantry have it. Also, add "The unit is immune to fear on the turn they charge".

2) Lower the Banner of Valour to 20 points.

IMHO the Griffon Standard is too good for 50 points so I'd keep it at 55 points.

Also, I agree that the Runefang is way too pricey for what it does. Maybe drop it to 60 points and make it "Generals of the Empire only".

EDIT: Ooh. How about this: General's troops: If an army is led by a General of the Empire all halberdiers are automatically equipped with heavy armour with no extra cost.

Two birds with one stone. ;)
« Last Edit: November 17, 2008, 12:37:06 PM by blurred »
...and hell came with him...

Offline Fandir Nightshade

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Re: Ways to improve the GoE
« Reply #45 on: November 17, 2008, 12:37:27 PM »
I donīt think the griffon banner is too good for 50 points the demons get a magical banner for 50 points that gives additional d3 to combat resolution. As you get the max. +3 with the griffon banner only if you are attacked in the front only and only if you have enough models left to have those three ranks and canīt chase after the opponent you have defeated it is VERY situational also it only makes sense on a great chunky slow moving infantry regiment where the demon can join a unit of those pesky moloch riders. Oh and he can get magical items in addition to his magic standard.

I would change the demon standard to 50 points unit causes fear and causes Terror while charging. There are some magic items that grant terror for 50 points.

Offline PhillyT

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Re: Ways to improve the GoE
« Reply #46 on: November 17, 2008, 12:57:03 PM »
Philly if you start with magic items diversity the AL even gets better the Van Horstmanns Spec looks on him even better

I don't use the speculum.

Phil
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Offline Fandir Nightshade

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Re: Ways to improve the GoE
« Reply #47 on: November 17, 2008, 01:01:06 PM »
why not? Too situational?

Anyhow gives the AL a greater bonus to the troops accompanying him and therefore equals out the lower Ws and 1 less attack. If you want to go that road the Grandmaster gets the 1+ armour save and ward save with one additional attack and even Ws 6 and if you want to you could always lead a cav charge with immune to psych knights.

Offline rufus sparkfire

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Re: Ways to improve the GoE
« Reply #48 on: November 17, 2008, 01:01:45 PM »
It's kinda like the way warrior priests and arch-lectors, backed by the impossibly wealthy and extrodinarily dwarf-loving church* can't get expensive dwarf-made fullplate.

Right! More stupid rules.  :icon_evil:
Hey, I could still beat up a woman!
If I wanted to.

Offline Fandir Nightshade

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Re: Ways to improve the GoE
« Reply #49 on: November 17, 2008, 01:06:31 PM »
Well I would say we shouldnīt complain the half warrior half mage thing worked with the empire way better than with the high elves....

"Oh look it is a fire mage, he is all reckless and dandy and whirling that deadly flame blade around!"

"Well just shoot him he has T 3, W 2 and no armour save! Otherwise our mighty helbardiers will smite him in combat to death!"