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Author Topic: How would you update the empire in 8th ed?  (Read 25318 times)

Offline Finlay

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Re: How would you update the empire in 8th ed?
« Reply #25 on: February 23, 2009, 01:54:55 PM »
we need a standardisation of equipment rules- ie our BSB should be able to have full mundane.
And Engineers should be improved
The Waltar's cost should go up.
and the GotE should have some kind of troop enhancing ability (some kind of LD boost and one unit of GS per GotE)

That's it.
I don't care about the rules.

Pass the machete.

Offline Lord Quiran de Lancastre

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Re: How would you update the empire in 8th ed?
« Reply #26 on: February 23, 2009, 01:59:12 PM »
I don't want tougher humans, I want proper points values.

take skinks for example vs a halberdier.

skinks have -1WS, -1T, and -1Ld. What they DO have is M6, I4, cold blooded, aquatic, poisoned attacks, javelins and can take Kroxigor.
All at the same point as our supposed mainstay troop.

our troops are too little for too much. I'm not saying make them stronger, I'm saying make them cheaper.

And yes, all of our characters are terrible leaders.

Offline vesrian

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Re: How would you update the empire in 8th ed?
« Reply #27 on: February 23, 2009, 02:05:51 PM »
I said it before and I say it again...

The only thing the EAB needs is a general who can fart lightning and spew fireballs.

It already has that - take a wizard lord as your general and you can choose whether you'd rather fart lightning or spew fireballs. If you take the ring of volans and get lucky, he'll be able to do both.
Just Say "No" to Pikes.

Offline Dannyfave

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Re: How would you update the empire in 8th ed?
« Reply #28 on: February 23, 2009, 04:13:02 PM »
Oh, a wish list?   :-D

Let's see:

- elector count: add a little extra to show he's a real leader of men. Re-rolling psych tests perhaps within his general's radius, or an 18" radius for his LD, or... Also, add some useful magic banners.

- bsb: normal equipment options likealmost allother armies, please.

- state troopers: add pikemen, rules as in DoW list, 9 pts, no detachments. Also, spears get three ranks and halberds two ranks to make them worth it and add something special.

- fast cav: I'd love to see a lancer-like unit. Perhaps light armour, shield, lance and pistol for equipment?

- make huntsmen useful again (and min size 5) please

- engineer: well... I'll shut up, best left alone.

- mortar: make a 2 for 1 special choice perhaps? In any case make it useful compared to the cannon. It's not bad, it's just in the special section and competing with even better choices.

Maybe just a brace of pistols upgrade for the champion, but just lance and shield for the troops.
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Offline v. Sturmfeld

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Re: How would you update the empire in 8th ed?
« Reply #29 on: February 23, 2009, 05:13:12 PM »
I really would like to see, that people here tell us WHY they want this and that changed.

Wishfull thinking is fine, but heck..I think one could do better than "Iwannastrength4forthisndthatandpaylessforit"..

e.g. halberdiers with armor piercing and /or heavy armor...would that really help (a lot)? Vs. most units this halberdiers would still die in drows and would never to be able  to beat back (for they seldom charge ).

I also would like to see some changes to the basic rules first (why is heavy cav. still faster in woods than infantry?) ...

Offline gladius

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Re: How would you update the empire in 8th ed?
« Reply #30 on: February 23, 2009, 07:17:47 PM »

v. Sturmfeld, here's why I'm wishing the below changes


- bring reiksguard on foot back. (0-1 max in core) - Full plate, shield and hw. 9 points each. Upgradeable to Inner Circle for 3 more points (and unit becomes a special choice)

Reason : We only have one "elite" infantry unit (GS)... I do not think another "elite" unit (with the best possible save) would hurt.

- replace spearmen by pikemen (same rules as DOW)

Reason : The pike makes a lot more sense than the spear. The Empire is relatively quite advanced and I believe the lance should have been long gone in most Imperial armies. (some will say we can play pikemen and 'count them as" spearmen, but why not have pikes for real?


- ogres, dwarves and halflings as rare. No giant.

reason : fluffwise, this makes sense and it clearly makes the Empire a real fantasy army (and not some pseudo-historical force in a fantasy setting).

- Make FC skirmish and give them dual pistol options (with all these options, they should cost about 12 pts each). If this one goes through, consider removing Archers from the list.

reason : fighting in regiments take a lot of practice and discipline. I cannot picture free companies fighting in ranks (even though they do so by the current rules). I think that there are the one unit in the whole empire army that should be skirmishing. I'm not going to deny that the pistol option is coming from DOW and it would make perfect sense for skirmishing units to use short range weapons such as pistols.


- drop the engineer from the Character choices and make it a unit upgrade.

Reason: do you need a reason for that???


- add witch hunter to the character list (hero choice). Gives special abilities vs undead and all things chaos.

Reason : with a useless character choice gone, we have some free space for something else, that might actually be useful... Now that the warrior priest gives hatred vs ANY enemy (and no longer chaos), it would be nice to have some specific "Anti-chaos" character in the army (should not be too powerful (eg:  limiting the choice of armour / giving them some drawbacks like needing to roll not to fail to chaos etc), but would be fluffy. Finally you have a full mordheim range that could be used to support this new character type, so why not?

- GotE. Agreed that this guy is not really worth it today. The other available choices are much better. Either give the chap a higher LD radius (as suggested by a few people already) or let him allow a different army composition (eg : allow one more special Choice per 1k tranche).

Reason :GotE are leaders, not fighters. Their lack of fighting skills are well reflected in their profile, however I think their leadership is not.  (and LD alone is not enough. Elves are supposed to be fast, but this is not only justified by them having higher I, but also some special rules. Why would it be different for us?

- overall point costs for core should go down significantly.

Reason : In terms of point cost, there is a clear gap between older books like ours and the newer ones. DE can now outnumber Empire or Orc players with superior core choices, I think everyone with sense will agree there is something odd there..


- mortars should be 1-2 per special slot.

Reason : Being a special choice, they have to compete with better / more interesting choices, we need to make them more attractive. I believe it's the same reasoning that developers have had with orc chukkas or dwarf bolt throwers. Had these been 1 per special slot, I guess we'd not see them very often.


- Stank with actual warhammer rules.

Reason : again, is a reason needed for that? The Stank is loathed by a lot of players because it is believed to be cheesy (I can't really judged as I have not used it enough to make my mind) and its rules are not in line with the "logic" behind the game system. Make it simpler to use, like a chariot and done.

- Bring back the cavalry hammer. (increase point cost if needed)

Reason : my white wolves want it back :-)

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Offline Shadowlord

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Re: How would you update the empire in 8th ed?
« Reply #31 on: February 23, 2009, 07:34:21 PM »
Reason : again, is a reason needed for that? The Stank is loathed by a lot of players because it is believed to be cheesy (I can't really judged as I have not used it enough to make my mind) and its rules are not in line with the "logic" behind the game system. Make it simpler to use, like a chariot and done.

Most of the stuff you want is something I don't, but this particular quote riddles me.

What?

Sure you ain't talking about the old Stank rules here?  :icon_confused:
My hood is my castle...

Offline Dannyfave

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Re: How would you update the empire in 8th ed?
« Reply #32 on: February 23, 2009, 08:21:59 PM »
One reason for Demi-lancers..... SO I CAN USE MY DAMED WINGED LANCERS RIGHT :-D
From feanor fire heart:


"In west virginia why couldnt they have sex ed and drivers ed on the same day?  Because its too much work for the donkey"

Re: How would you update the empire in 8th ed?
« Reply #33 on: February 23, 2009, 08:23:46 PM »
I think Empire Generals should have the option to equip all of their soldiers with mulberry pie, that way when they are engaged they can encourage their enemy to sit down and have a picnic instead of fighting.

Seriously though, the only change I need to see in 8th edition is a slight improvement on halberds on the whole...armor piercing might do the trick but actually it will probably help empire halberds the least for reasons stated in previous posts.

Also, if we are just wishlisting here, I want inner circle knights to revert to 0-1 core choice...so I can squeeze another cannon into my 2,500 pt list....but really that’s just me being greedy.

Offline Sir Falo

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Re: How would you update the empire in 8th ed?
« Reply #34 on: February 23, 2009, 08:47:17 PM »
The champion upgrade would be great (not so different in game play).

Give him the same equipment as the captain witout the mount and BSB options.
I would be awesome! Have you seen the pictures of The Empire? The campion always have a pistol or better armor.

On the infantry, down with the griffon banner to 50 and let the Elector/general to give 50 pts to a infantry or 75 pt to greatswords.
And then boost with some more banners and give greatswords 50 pts magic banner.

And the Reiksguard of foot must come back!

Give halberds 25 pts magic banner, and a banner only they can take like:
The Guardsman pride
Magic banner 25 pts; Halberds only

The unit gets bonus from one more rank (to max +4), will not work if The griffon banner is in the unit.
Not a big change and the name gets good with halbeards normal job (town guards)
« Last Edit: February 23, 2009, 08:57:15 PM by Sir Falo »

Offline gladius

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Re: How would you update the empire in 8th ed?
« Reply #35 on: February 23, 2009, 09:13:14 PM »
Reason : again, is a reason needed for that? The Stank is loathed by a lot of players because it is believed to be cheesy (I can't really judged as I have not used it enough to make my mind) and its rules are not in line with the "logic" behind the game system. Make it simpler to use, like a chariot and done.

Most of the stuff you want is something I don't, but this particular quote riddles me.

What?

Sure you ain't talking about the old Stank rules here?  :icon_confused:

I see what you mean.. It's true that the current Stank rules are better than the old ones (old being Ed 6th). This being said, I'm just observing that a lot of people are still finding the current rules to be difficult to play with. I'm sure the rules for the Stank could be simplified further and if they did so, the Stank would probably be more "accepted" by players than it is today.
The cost of Victory is blood. The cost of Defeat is everything.
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Offline GamesPoet

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Re: How would you update the empire in 8th ed?
« Reply #36 on: February 23, 2009, 09:33:16 PM »
I'd like to see a light cavalry unit with hand weapon as a given, but with options for weapons like lances, a single pistol, bows, and maybe even light crossbows.  The latter might need an option for armor since it would likely be "move or shoot".

I'd like to see the engineer improved, point cost reduced, or as an upgrade option for the artillery.  The last idea might be the best, because it is tough to justify taking one currently, since it takes up a hero slot, and the other choices are better of what we face from the other armies.
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Offline Dannyfave

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Re: How would you update the empire in 8th ed?
« Reply #37 on: February 23, 2009, 09:52:49 PM »
How about not making the engineer an upgrade, but rather for every engineer you have, you can take either a cannon or mortar for a core choice (though they don't count towards min. core choices)
From feanor fire heart:


"In west virginia why couldnt they have sex ed and drivers ed on the same day?  Because its too much work for the donkey"

Offline EriktheGreen

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Re: How would you update the empire in 8th ed?
« Reply #38 on: February 23, 2009, 11:48:07 PM »
Seriously, the only problem I see that even rises to the level of almost needing a fix is the unbalanced lord choices.  Everyhting else (halberds, engineers, etc.) is minor and doesn't affect how most Empire armies play.  We have 7 viable core choices and 3 viable hero choices.  In the grand scheme of things that's balanced.  I mean, are our core troops really that bad?

Offline Dannyfave

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Re: How would you update the empire in 8th ed?
« Reply #39 on: February 23, 2009, 11:59:00 PM »
I love our core troops!

I just want something to represent a basic light cav unit and I would be happy :-D
From feanor fire heart:


"In west virginia why couldnt they have sex ed and drivers ed on the same day?  Because its too much work for the donkey"

Offline patsy02

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Re: How would you update the empire in 8th ed?
« Reply #40 on: February 24, 2009, 12:00:01 AM »
Here's an idea for the General of the empire to make him useful: When joining a unit of state troops, that unit gains +1 armour save to the front -or- they choose to strike with +1 rank.
Example: GOTE joins a unit of halberdiers. They may choose to modify their save to a 5+ OR they can strike in two ranks. He joins a unit of spearmen: Spearmen modify their save to 4+ OR they strike in 3 ranks.

This is justifiable by fluff(inspired by his presence, general's drill etc), and possibly applicable to captains as well by giving the GOTE the ability to use both at once and the captain having to choose one instead.

It gives players incentive to make fluffy armies because regular captains and GOTE will be worth taking, our infantry will be able to stand up against anything better than a goblin, and they will have strong offensive as well as defensive capabilities. In addition there won't be any need to make point reductions or adding more special rules to our regular infantry.

Just an idea.
I agree with the inhumane treatment of animals.

Offline Dannyfave

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Re: How would you update the empire in 8th ed?
« Reply #41 on: February 24, 2009, 12:02:12 AM »
See , I love the idea of a GOTE, but I do think that something needs to be done with him...
From feanor fire heart:


"In west virginia why couldnt they have sex ed and drivers ed on the same day?  Because its too much work for the donkey"

Offline General E

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Re: How would you update the empire in 8th ed?
« Reply #42 on: February 24, 2009, 12:29:00 AM »
   I know were human and weak but for goodness sake give us some good banners and more of them within the 50 point range.  What we have now stinks to put it mildly other races are stronger and have better banners to boot.

   Empire needs some punch to our army other than only expensive knights, how about one core guard unit or do the strongest humans just switch over and become Chaos Warriors?

   Make Engineer usefull to artillery or get rid of them, I hate having lame choices.  

   Have the Ka-boom on the Hellblaster volley gun just heat up the barrel so much that you lose firing ability for the next turn instead of eliminating the gun and crew, that would make more sense, we have enough things that blow up on us already.

   Well that is just a few ideas and parden my venting.


Offline offroadfury88

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Re: How would you update the empire in 8th ed?
« Reply #43 on: February 24, 2009, 01:47:45 AM »
Here's an idea for the General of the empire to make him useful: When joining a unit of state troops, that unit gains +1 armour save to the front -or- they choose to strike with +1 rank.
Example: GOTE joins a unit of halberdiers. They may choose to modify their save to a 5+ OR they can strike in two ranks. He joins a unit of spearmen: Spearmen modify their save to 4+ OR they strike in 3 ranks.

This is justifiable by fluff(inspired by his presence, general's drill etc), and possibly applicable to captains as well by giving the GOTE the ability to use both at once and the captain having to choose one instead.


Thats the worst justification for the worst rule change

Just make his leadership bonus range increase and call it good. I like captains and the GotE just got screwed by the banners getting screwed. No knights on foot, we dont need better swordsmen. I do like the toughness four on Greatswords. In general make the Empire more fantasy, not industrial.
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Offline Packing Steel

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Re: How would you update the empire in 8th ed?
« Reply #44 on: February 24, 2009, 02:09:21 AM »
I like having weak, inferior human soldiers, thats what makes playing the empire so much fun.

You know what makes the Empire so much fun to play??

Its that you have to be quite a good general to use them - not just good at writing nasty army lists - which any gimp with £15 and a pen and paper can do.

2 things though

Robo horse can go away - its about as welcome as Jo Brand

And steam tanks, yeah I get it, they can be fun, but the bottom line is:

IF I WANT TANKS I'LL PLAY WARHAMMER 40'000 FFS!!!!! :icon_redface:


I received a reprimand for this post as my language, I admit was a bit on the crude side - which is a little 'not the done thing' for a general of the Empire(we're aristocrats after all) and I apologise if anything I said offended anybody, I kindly ask the moderaters to please inform me if any of my future posts contatins overly inappropriate language and I will happily modify it.

many thanks,

Dan Sanders

It wasn't a reprimand so much as a reminder to town down the off color a bit outside the Back Table. We got a complaint about the language in the post but it's all good.  :::cheers::: - Perambulator
« Last Edit: February 26, 2009, 12:54:07 AM by Perambulator »
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Offline Dannyfave

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Re: How would you update the empire in 8th ed?
« Reply #45 on: February 24, 2009, 02:18:42 AM »
Yeah I'm not to into the steam tank, but they most likely aren't going anywhere.
From feanor fire heart:


"In west virginia why couldnt they have sex ed and drivers ed on the same day?  Because its too much work for the donkey"

Offline riff100

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Re: How would you update the empire in 8th ed?
« Reply #46 on: February 24, 2009, 02:22:41 AM »
Oh Reiksguard Foot! I forgot all about those!

Dear GWSanta

I hereby recind my reqest for Halbadiers with Heavy Armour. In its stead i would really like Rieksguard foot back. Its not too much to ask to return what was stolen from me, give me some core heavy infantry.

Riff

-As swordsmen w/ LD 8 and full plate. 2+ save !!!! 8 pts a model.

Offline Ben

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Re: How would you update the empire in 8th ed?
« Reply #47 on: February 24, 2009, 02:58:38 AM »
I want changes that add little touches to our army. Things that most opponents would not even notice, rather than uber leet units.

Try to enforce the State troop element of Empire Armies. We have the detachment rules so little things to help enhance the flavour. Like State Regiments get free Commands if you take a unit of 20 (GW can sell more mini's which is what they want).

Engineers are not a character choice but simply an upgrade you buy for an artillery piece. That can reroll the artillery dice on a misfire.

Give the Elector Count 'command' abilities. Try to improve his roll as a commander maybe he could have a "rally' ability and rally one fleeing troop in 12 inches or a "defend' ability he could make one unit stubborn in a combat or a "engage" maybe he could allow a unit an extra move.

Again the idea being to give Empire tactical abilities, so your army is not about uber units but about using command and control to be effective. All units are needed to make up the sum of the army, each regiment operates in conjunction with other elements of the army.

This may effect the fantasy hero vs hero element of WHFB. But the idea would be to make players buy lots of figures (GW is a miniature company they make games so you buy figures).

Keep the skirmishing archers as the bow is actually the main weapon of the empire. Crossbows were mostly Tilean mercenries.

The robo horse should be a special character model. No one uses engineers except for a bit of fun.

Bring back War Wagons and you can keep Steam tanks (though you all seem to be like me and refuse to take them and use our infantry hoping to dazzle our opponents with our brilliant generalman ship). Though this is like a Dark Elf player saying "oh no I dont use the hydra it is to underpriced.... like anyone would do that).

Empire Handgunners have special 'volley' fire rules. They can shoot in a rear rank maybe at targets under half range. The idea being it is not about individual fire but massed volley fire satuating an area.

Mortars are a two for one special choice. Maybe even a rule to allow battery of units to be brought, 1-3 artillery pieces. Increase the costs and they must be played within 4 inches of one another.

Halberdiers actually have something to show they are the main stay of the Empire. Magic banners, heavy armour.

Free company allow these mercenary scum the ability to maybe move further when chasing down fleeing units. Maybe pistols and they fight as skirmisher in a mish mash of mixed weapons.

Yes and Rieksguard. So heavily armoured infantry who are stubborn. Basically Greatsword but called Rieksguard.

Try to encourage Empire armies to have standards (to enhance the look of the army) so maybe Empire banners are not worth any vps and the battle banner is worth double. Even maybe a rule to "defend the colours!" Empire standards are worth double in working out combat results (then of course they should be worth vp's).

The Empire army should all be about combined tactics. With a few gimmicks of flavour like Warrior Priests, Witch Hunters etc

So far about the only thing opponents hate about my army are 'cannons'. They ignore the fact that my most effective weapon has a 1 in 6 chance of destroying itself when ever it fires.


Offline General E

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Re: How would you update the empire in 8th ed?
« Reply #48 on: February 24, 2009, 02:59:24 AM »
Quote
I like having weak, inferior human soldiers, that's what makes playing the empire so much fun.

I liked the challenge too and that is why I took Empire but now in my club I'm having to play Daemons, Tomb Kings, Vampires and I getting sick of seeing my troops checking for everything, if they want to attack. if they are attacked, do they auto break etc. Can't rely on detachments, too many checks and no punch. Oh yea cannons are our punch if they don't blow up in our faces first. Am I alone in thinking we need an under 50 point banner that would make us immune to psychology?
« Last Edit: February 26, 2009, 12:52:14 AM by Perambulator »

Offline Dannyfave

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Re: How would you update the empire in 8th ed?
« Reply #49 on: February 24, 2009, 03:04:42 AM »
Ben said:
Bring back War Wagons and you can keep Steam tanks (though you all seem to be like me and refuse to take them and use our infantry hoping to dazzle our opponents with our brilliant generalman ship). Though this is like a Dark Elf player saying "oh no I dont use the hydra it is to underpriced.... like anyone would do that).



Hey I kinda do that.
From feanor fire heart:


"In west virginia why couldnt they have sex ed and drivers ed on the same day?  Because its too much work for the donkey"