home

Author Topic: How would you update the empire in 8th ed?  (Read 24960 times)

Offline NPC_Dave

  • Posts: 117
    • View Profile
Re: How would you update the empire in 8th ed?
« Reply #50 on: February 24, 2009, 06:26:54 AM »
Rather than extra special choices, have

Grand Master - one core Inner Circle unit
General of the Empire - one core Greatswords unit
Master Engineer - some core Cannons/Mortars

Detachments need to be able to strike first when making counter or supporting charges. ASF really hurt that. Don't know if that can be fixed though as ASF means they still lose to almost everyone else who has it.

Bring back Reiksguard infantry, halberdiers should get heavy armor and either armor piercing or WS4.

And drop the point costs for infantry.

Offline Shadowlord

  • Pure of Heart
  • Posts: 6059
  • ...
    • View Profile
Re: How would you update the empire in 8th ed?
« Reply #51 on: February 24, 2009, 07:04:11 AM »
I'm sure the rules for the Stank could be simplified further and if they did so, the Stank would probably be more "accepted" by players than it is today.

By players sure, by opponents not gonna happen.

If the Stank got normal rules for movement that does not use Steam Points, it would be easier to play with.

At the same time, more opponents would hate something that would get punished and yet come through their lines like a roller when it just had a few wounds left. I would prefer that because if you get two or more wounds knocked off from it, it becomes much less useful.

But I can see the opponents now - "oh no you trashed my BG unit, and even if I had two Hydras ripping all yours a new one, that is so unfair".
My hood is my castle...

Offline Mathi Alfblut

  • Posts: 6225
  • intres cum fixura sine misericordia
    • View Profile
    • Mattiknifes blog
Re: How would you update the empire in 8th ed?
« Reply #52 on: February 24, 2009, 09:23:29 AM »
I donīt think changing the steam tank again would be good. It would stop being a Steamtank to start with. Keep them steampoints!
Maybe enable you to make some Kustom jobz on it, that would be grand.
And re-introduce the War wagon for more conservative players.
Oh, and remember GW made it personal, not you!

Offline scarletsquig

  • Posts: 797
    • View Profile
Re: How would you update the empire in 8th ed?
« Reply #53 on: February 24, 2009, 09:25:53 AM »
Quote
I like having weak, shitty human soldiers, that's what makes playing the empire so much fun.

I liked the challenge too and that is why I took Empire but now in my club I'm having to play Daemons, Tomb Kings, Vampires and I getting sick of seeing my troops checking for everything, if they want to attack. if they are attacked, do they auto break etc. Can't rely on detachments, too many checks and no punch. Oh yea cannons are our punch if they don't blow up in our faces first. Am I alone in thinking we need an under 50 point banner that would make us immune to psychology?

If your club is loaded with the fear-causing armies, then the Imperial Banner is definitely one to consider. I agree that all those checks can be a pain.

Offline cisse

  • Posts: 3893
  • let the wookie win!
    • View Profile
Re: How would you update the empire in 8th ed?
« Reply #54 on: February 24, 2009, 09:59:12 AM »
At the same time, more opponents would hate something that would get punished and yet come through their lines like a roller when it just had a few wounds left. I would prefer that because if you get two or more wounds knocked off from it, it becomes much less useful.
Meh. I never understood why in WHFB a mechanical creation loses efficiency when damaged, whereas living creatures don't. A dragon on his last wound is just as effective and dangerous as a dragon with 6 wounds. Which is silly - make the damn thing lose a point of WS, A, I and whatnot for every wound it loses!!!
cisse

No matter how fast you run, your ass will always be in front of me...

Offline Merrick

  • Posts: 3304
  • I say!
    • http://www.facebook.com/WinHereWinThereWinWinEverywhere
    • View Profile
Re: How would you update the empire in 8th ed?
« Reply #55 on: February 24, 2009, 10:49:33 AM »
At the same time, more opponents would hate something that would get punished and yet come through their lines like a roller when it just had a few wounds left. I would prefer that because if you get two or more wounds knocked off from it, it becomes much less useful.
Meh. I never understood why in WHFB a mechanical creation loses efficiency when damaged, whereas living creatures don't. A dragon on his last wound is just as effective and dangerous as a dragon with 6 wounds. Which is silly - make the damn thing lose a point of WS, A, I and whatnot for every wound it loses!!!

What? And have the HE players whine because their dragon is nerfed whenever it gets hit by a nasty man with a gun?  :engel:

Offline MrDWhitey

  • Posts: 7330
    • View Profile
Re: How would you update the empire in 8th ed?
« Reply #56 on: February 24, 2009, 10:54:27 AM »
HE players whining is a beautiful music to be savoured like a fine wine.

Edit: Or it would be if it weren't common as muck  :engel:
I thought he should act responsibly and just kill himself.

Offline Uryens de Crux

  • Posts: 3740
    • View Profile
Re: How would you update the empire in 8th ed?
« Reply #57 on: February 24, 2009, 12:46:35 PM »
What about elite halberdiers, a perfectly reasonable and fluffy unit?

Spears = peasant/city milita, poor grade unprofessional troops
Swordsmen = elite skirmishers and detachment units (should be sword and buckler)
Halberd = professional retinue soldiers, civil soldiers and standing city army
Pikemen = professional mercenaries, standing army soldiery

Thats how I would like to see it.

Spears, cheap as chips and not very good troops, but safety in numbers.

Swordsmen, good troops as they are now, but acting as skirmishers or detachments only (and new models to show them as much cooler sword and buckler men), provide hard hitting melee backup to the core troops of:

Halberdiers - armour piercing halberds, options on armour type (light or heavy, no shields) - these units served as bodyguards to popes and kings, these dont get more elite.

Pikes - the mainstay soldier of the later medieval, early rennaisance europe, all armour options (no shields), these should be the bread and butter troop of the empire.

Greatswords, historically they are shock troops, no need to change anything about them, perhaps make one unit "unbreakable" to represent their real world use as the "Folorn Hope"

All my personal thoughts, and I am in no doubt it will be hated by some.

100% has to be done is Add pikes & give halbers armour piercing.
We go to gain a little patch of ground that hath in it no profit but the name.
The Free Company of Solland

The Barony of Wusterburg

Offline patsy02

  • Posts: 5489
  • Moderator in charge of Gender Equality (Honorary)
    • View Profile
Re: How would you update the empire in 8th ed?
« Reply #58 on: February 24, 2009, 03:46:10 PM »
Thats the worst justification for the worst rule change
Uh, why? And again, it was just an idea. I don't see how it's worse than an increased range for the general's LD. It allows our troops to actually do something on their own besides sitting tight, waiting for the cavalry and hoping the enemy doesn't cause fear.
I agree with the inhumane treatment of animals.

Offline kermitthefrog3

  • Posts: 122
  • For The Emperor!
    • View Profile
Re: How would you update the empire in 8th ed?
« Reply #59 on: February 24, 2009, 05:35:43 PM »
Characters:

General: +1 WS, units within 12" can reroll panic checks, 95pts

Arch Lector: +1 WS, 135pts

War Alter now 150pts

Master Engineer: BS5, if taken allows A selection of upgrades to be taken on Selected units:

Master Engineer - 60 points.

Master Engineer - 60 points.

Experimental Weaponry: Master Engineers are often seen carrying a range of new experimental weapons that make use of black powder. They are famously temperamental but when they do work they can be extremely effective.

Hochland Long Rifle - Same
Repeater Pistol - Same
Repeater handgun - Same
Pigeon bomb - same.
Any of the ones ive missed are the same.

Scout pigeon - pick a target unit in sight of the engineer, on a 4+ he may measure the distance that unit is from himself or any unit within 5". Can be used before guess range weaponry but cannot use any other weapon that turn regardless of whether it was sucessfull. - 30pts

Grenade Launching Blunderbuss - D3 shots, str 6, counts as multi shot however many shots are generated. May Fire 1 round at str 7 that does d3 wounds. 12" range. Move or Fire. - 30pts

Engineers armoury: Master Engineers can Bring special weaponry, ammunition and knowledge that can aid the missile troops and war machines of the empire. a Master engineer may take upto 50pts These. Special equipment that affects shooting units and war machines only effects shooting units with black powder weaponry, i.e not Crossbow or archers. The upgrades are bought by the engineers themselves but affect the units stated. If the engineer dies in the battle the upgrades on the units are not lost.

One unit or War machine/All units and War Machines.

Incendianary rounds - 5pts/20pts - The missile units/ war machines attacks count as flaming, does not affect hellstorm rocket batterys.

Long Rifles - 10pts/30pts - Outriders, Handgunners and Pistoliers only - the range of these units handguns are increased to 30" from 24", pistols are increased to 10" from 8"

Armour piercing rounds - 15pts/35pts - Not usable on war machines - This units weapons have an extra -1 armour penetration.

Reliable machinery - 20pts/50pts - Cannons and Mortars may ignore thier first missfire (The dice is not rerolled, the Machine does not fire that turn but the table is not rolled upon)

Exotic Weapons expert - 40pts - Hellstorms and hellblasters only - A hellblaster may reroll one of the artillery dice rolled every time it is fired so long as the dice was not a missfire. A hellstorm may reroll the scatter Dice each time it is fired.

Modified powder - 20pts - The master Engineers weapons are increased to str 5 (if not already str 5 or higher)

Wailing rockets - 35 pts - Hellstorm rocket batteries only - One use only - Fire the weapon as normal, if the rockets hit they are at str 3, but any unit hit by the rockets or within 2" of where the template landed they must take a panic test. Units under the hole must take the test at -1 ld (unless stubborn). Units immune to phychology/panic are unaffected as normal.

Smoke grenades - 25 pts per unit - May be given to any infantry unit - The smoke bombs can be deployed in the shooting phase by the unit, but they cannot use any other missile weapons that turn. Next turn, all shooting attacks are at -1 to hit on that unit. They can also be used when the unit flees as a result of panic or terror, in that acse they cannot be shot at at all next turn.



Core units:

Halberdiers: Armour piercing weapons, Heavy armour, 6pts, can no longer take shields.

Spearmen: Front rank get the +1 AS bonus for using a hw and shield even if using spears. (if they are equipped with shields)

Archers: 5 number minimum, Huntsmen are +2pts and have Longbows.

Special: New IC Knights:

Inner Circle Knights (new ones) 0-1

+1 WS +1 STR compared to normal knights, 31pts

Rare: Helblaster volley can can ignore the first missfire it rolls per turn (thought it is not rerolled, it just dosnt generate any shots). Hits on a 4+ at long range and 3+ at short it can be improved +1 by large targets and any other positive modifiers as normal, can only be lowered by magic items that confer to hit penalties. 120pts

''There are no problems that cannot be solved with cannons''

Offline unheilig

  • Posts: 209
    • View Profile
Re: How would you update the empire in 8th ed?
« Reply #60 on: February 24, 2009, 06:53:04 PM »
LORDS AND HEROES

General of the Empire allows greatswords to be core. (or at least 1 unit as core)

Engineers become upgrades to artillery crews. Helblaster and helstorm can have them too.

CORE

State Troops all get WS4 or BS4 as appropriate. and can have 25 pt magic banners.

Pikes as a 2pt per model upgrade to spearmen.

Pistoliers as core, but do not fulfill core requirements.

SPECIAL

Greatswords can have magic banner.

Mortars as a 2 for 1 slot choice

MAGIC ITEMS

drop the griffon standard back down to 50 pts.

"History has shown there are no invincible armies"

Offline Grutch

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 3818
    • View Profile
    • http://www.warhammer-empire.com
Re: How would you update the empire in 8th ed?
« Reply #61 on: February 24, 2009, 07:34:48 PM »
Why even talk about it? The next GW writer...errr game designer will ignore everything here in lieu of his superior ideas.

-Grutch

Offline patsy02

  • Posts: 5489
  • Moderator in charge of Gender Equality (Honorary)
    • View Profile
Re: How would you update the empire in 8th ed?
« Reply #62 on: February 24, 2009, 08:53:38 PM »
Bastard will probably introduce the Tesla coil shaped like a skull as an engineer weapon. Or something equally terrible. I don't know, I just can't imagine a good empire book anymore, my mind has been swamped by overwhelming pessimism.
I agree with the inhumane treatment of animals.

Offline PhillyT

  • The Old Ones
  • Posts: 18333
  • Watching... always watching...
    • View Profile
Re: How would you update the empire in 8th ed?
« Reply #63 on: February 24, 2009, 08:55:45 PM »
Has anyone thought of adding pikes, giving halberdiers unbreakability and heavy armor, and raising the engineers BS to 5?

Phil
Where did she touch you Eight? Show us on the doll.

Offline General E

  • Posts: 55
    • View Profile
Re: How would you update the empire in 8th ed?
« Reply #64 on: February 24, 2009, 09:13:39 PM »
Quote
I just can't imagine a good empire book anymore, my mind has been swamped by overwhelming pessimism.

Your not the only one.  I know humans are weak, and I could accept that, but do they have to be weak in army banners and magic items too. Lower Griffon banner back to 50 points, give Greatswords a banner, have a banner under 50 points that makes the unit immune to psychology. There are now too many fear causing armies out there and with the auto break rule that's too much.

Offline Michael W

  • Posts: 842
  • In the Name of the Emperor since 2001
    • View Profile
Re: How would you update the empire in 8th ed?
« Reply #65 on: February 24, 2009, 09:43:17 PM »
I like my WS3, BS3 humans.  Change swords, spears, halberds, and pikes to "State Troops" - WS3 BS3 guys, 4 pts each - with light armour and a hand weapon.  Options for shield (1 pt), spear (1 pt), halberd (1 pt), or pike (4 pts).  Each GotE allows you to upgrade one unit to "Veterans" at WS 4, I4, Ld 8 for +2 pts/model.  Halberds with the "step over the fallen" rule (the front rank always fights, regardless of casualties); pikes fight in four ranks and count as a defended obstacle.  Give all Empire State Troops the ability to gain up to +4 from ranks instead of +3, due to training and discipline, as well as detachments. 

Keep Greatswords as are, but add Dismounted Knights as Core, in Full Plate with hand weapon and shield, 10 pts/model; option to swap shield for Greatsword for free.  Dismounted Knights are NOT state troops and don't benefit from those rules; Greatswords are, but they are a Special choice.  Dismounted Knights keep the option for Inner Circle for +2 pts/model (and become Special).  Downgrade Knightly Orders' Inner Circle cost to 2 pts/model.  Both Dismounted Knights and Greatswords gain 50 pt magic banner option, and all Knightly Preceptors (mounted and foot) gain option for 25 pts of magic items.  Greatswords benefit from the General's leadership when rolling break tests (applied toward their Stubborn ability) if the General is in the unit.

Add Winged Lancers as a Rare choice, keeping their "Glorious Charge" rule, and make Gryphon Legion a 2 pt/model upgrade.

Remove the "Core Flagellants if a Warrior Priest is present" rule.

Add Demilancers as a Core choice.  Human on horse in light armour with a lance and sword.  Options for full command.

Give Free Companies option to purchase skirmishing (+1 pt/model) and light armour (+1 pt/model).

Some changes to the Steam Tank would be nice, but nothing terribly large.  It seems to work pretty well right now, at a good balance between insanely-complicated-but-somewhat-realistic and still-works-in-game.

A couple of new low-cost magic banners would be nice, but nothing game-breaking or have-to-take items.  Put the Griffon back at 50.

Lower Archers to about 6 pts/model.  Huntsmen at 8.  And back to unit size 5-10 for Huntsmen.

Add a Witch Hunter hero.  Master Engineer moves to a unit upgrade (for war machines) and one wound (and not BS 5), limit one per army or some such.  Add Marshal of Engineers as a Hero choice, who provides the option for more Engineers.  Engineers can reroll misfires for any artillery piece, not just cannons and mortars.

Just my thoughts...
Let them taste Reikland steel!
----------------------------

Offline GambitGriffin

  • Posts: 401
    • View Profile
Re: How would you update the empire in 8th ed?
« Reply #66 on: February 24, 2009, 10:35:52 PM »
Okey here s my insane thoughts...

GotE - 0-1 greatswords core, giant chicken 50 points cheaper
TGM - 0-1 IC knights core
War altar +50 points

Statetroops 1 point cheaper, and just for great looks, option for heavy armor +2

master engineer becomes a warmachine upgrade and allows 1-2 mortars or cannons to be field into small batteries (counts as only one special choice). Must be deployed 3" apart and at the same time.

change the BRB to allow 2+ CR for ranks.

Add some kind of light cavalry hopefully by, fluff wise, let the empire conquer and burn Kislev to the ground! :icon_twisted: ::heretic::  :mrgreen:

Offline Grutch

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 3818
    • View Profile
    • http://www.warhammer-empire.com
Re: How would you update the empire in 8th ed?
« Reply #67 on: February 24, 2009, 11:20:29 PM »
Has anyone thought of adding pikes, giving halberdiers unbreakability and heavy armor, and raising the engineers BS to 5?

Phil

Stop it PhillyT,  we don't need you're stinking common sense here!

-Grutch

Offline PhillyT

  • The Old Ones
  • Posts: 18333
  • Watching... always watching...
    • View Profile
Re: How would you update the empire in 8th ed?
« Reply #68 on: February 24, 2009, 11:21:55 PM »
Whoops!  Sorry about that!

Phil
Where did she touch you Eight? Show us on the doll.

Offline Gaare

  • Posts: 8
    • View Profile
Re: How would you update the empire in 8th ed?
« Reply #69 on: February 24, 2009, 11:45:55 PM »
- Our infantry boys are very cool. I just would like to have a few different types of officers for the army. You know, giving some types of abilities to our champions, captains or General.. Things like; for 30 pts as long as this 'ard arse sergeant is alive, his unit of spearmen can reroll panic checks. Or.. Like banner 10 points this sergeant's unit can reroll rally checks. This sergeant and his unit has been trained especially by sigmar priests and they are immune to fear while fighting undead, blah blah..

- Some Knight Captain hero would  be nice, giving some type of ability to knights. That's lame, a priest leads knights better then a captain.

- Engineer with BS 5 is logical considering our captains have 5 BS. On the other hand, it is way too powerful to have a 5 BS guy with longrifle or a BS 5 Helblaster. I dont know, maybe reduce of points of an engineer would solve the problem. Or having them as upgrades for machines.

- Adding a bit for our detachments would be nice. I like to see them using parent unit's musician and banner(at least musician)

- Every army is having some type of an object unit buffing others around itself(Couldron, Shrine, Engine of Gods, Corpse Cart, etc.). Maybe some type of BSB carrying unit buffing others around would be nice. (Like a unit carrying a large flag  giving imperial banner properties to units 12" or 18")

I can not see many changes I would like to see in Empire army list. Deamons, Vampires are very tough now, but well... They are still beatable, at least the ones in my gaming club.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2009, 11:49:46 PM by Gaare »

Offline Dannyfave

  • Posts: 2168
  • A.K.A Skabilly Takamaster.
    • View Profile
Re: How would you update the empire in 8th ed?
« Reply #70 on: February 24, 2009, 11:54:38 PM »
Okey here s my insane thoughts...



Add some kind of light cavalry hopefully by, fluff wise, let the empire conquer and burn Kislev to the ground! :icon_twisted: ::heretic::  :mrgreen:

Insane indeed......... :x
From feanor fire heart:


"In west virginia why couldnt they have sex ed and drivers ed on the same day?  Because its too much work for the donkey"

Offline Warlord

  • Global Moderator
  • Posts: 9217
  • Sydney, Australia
    • View Profile
Re: How would you update the empire in 8th ed?
« Reply #71 on: February 25, 2009, 12:32:12 AM »
For each General/Elector Count in the army, 1 unit of Greatswords to be core.
General can be upgraded to Elector Count (18" Leadership) +20pts. Only Elector Count can carry Runefang (75pts), but cannot ride a Griffon.
Halberd, Crossbow and Brace of Pistols options also.
For each GM in army, 1 unit of IC knights to be core.
For each High Priest (renamed Arch Lector) in the army, 1 unit of Flagellants to be core.
War Altar = 140pts, not 0-1

BSB to get normal equipment options
Captain to get Crossbow and Brace of Pistols option also.
Captain can be upgraded to Hunt Master, Witch Hunter or Seneschual (Do a search in the Imperial Office for my ideas on these)
Warrior Priest to be able to choose from various gods.
Warrior Priest to be able to be equipped with 'Talismans'
Engineer changes (also listed in the same thread as above in the Imperial Office) including equipment.

State Troop Options:
4pts, light armour, hand weapon. Champion upgrade gives better stats (+1 WS, BS, S, I, A). Command =20pts total. Must choose at least one, maximum of two from the following list:
Veterans: +1WS, +1I (1pt)
Armour: Shield or Heavy Armour (1pt)
Weapon: Halberd or Spear (1pt)
Missile Weapon: Handgun or Crossbow (if chosen, cannot take another option) (4pts)
State Troops can take any banner with a value up to 25pts.

Militia Options:
4pts, hand weapon. Unit can be ranked or skirmishers (but cannot change throughout the game. Skirmishers can only get champion upgrade). Must choose one from the following list:
Weapon: Extra Hand Weapon (1pt) or Great Weapon (2pts)
Missile Weapon: Pistol or Bow (4pts)

Huntsmen have Longbows, are 9pts each, and min unit size of 8. Can swap longbows for handguns at no additional cost.
Knightly Orders to use 6th ed WD traits system (or simpler version of)

Greatswords can take any banner up to 50pts.
Pistoliers may swap one pistol for a lance at no additional cost.

Helblaster back to 6th ed rules, 125pts
Flagellants 'Hatred' martyr rule re-write to avoid confusion. (9pts)
Steam tank to have proper rules (rather than poor adaption of steam point system, or alternatively should you roll over the steam point limit, the steam tank suffers 1 wound and -1 steam point to use, for another roll over the limit, suffers 2 wounds and -2 steam points to use, and so on). Can also attack in opponents turn.
Reintroduce the War Wagon. Not Experimental crew - 6 regular state troop crew with halberds and handguns. T5 charriot, 5 wounds, 3+AS vs shooting, 3+AS vs combat normal, 5+AS vs combat against monsters and bigger. (110pts) Mv7. Impact hits D6 S5.
Possibly add Kislev Winged Lancers /Gryphon Legion to the list?

Magic items across the board - some need to be dropped in points, most kept the same, and more banners.

Lots of minor changes, certainly don't break the list, and really only make it more interesting for Empire players. Plus a shiny new War Wagon / Altar kit for GW to sell.
Quote from: Gneisenau
I hate people who don't paint their armies, hate them with all my guts. Beats me how they value other things over painting, like eating or brushing teeth.

Offline PhillyT

  • The Old Ones
  • Posts: 18333
  • Watching... always watching...
    • View Profile
Re: How would you update the empire in 8th ed?
« Reply #72 on: February 25, 2009, 12:33:34 AM »
What the hell.  Did you copy and paste that from another post?  One from like 3 years ago the first time you wrote it?

:D

Phil
Where did she touch you Eight? Show us on the doll.

Offline General Blah

  • Posts: 84
  • Helblaster: The best medicine.
    • View Profile
Re: How would you update the empire in 8th ed?
« Reply #73 on: February 25, 2009, 12:33:59 AM »


1. Pistoliers get back Fulisade, 19pts.


What did the Fussilade rule even say? I asked GWD and they had no answer, saying they have never heard of this rule. I have seen it in the old rulebook, but never saw what it did.
Any army's a good army, if it's got Outriders.

Offline patsy02

  • Posts: 5489
  • Moderator in charge of Gender Equality (Honorary)
    • View Profile
Re: How would you update the empire in 8th ed?
« Reply #74 on: February 25, 2009, 12:39:20 AM »
Essentially, when the pistoliers charged they had 2 attacks in close combat and S4. In addition to the horses, they were made a quite nasty flanking unit.
I agree with the inhumane treatment of animals.