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Author Topic: Army Book: Magic Banners  (Read 4716 times)

Offline kk14

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Army Book: Magic Banners
« on: February 18, 2010, 10:31:46 AM »
Magic Banners.
My mission here is to rework the Empire's magic banners, making the choice between them harder, and providing many candidates for the 'Family Heirloom' ability of the GotE's.
There are many that I am putting here that won't make the final cut, I think. There are also many borrowed from the other banners thread. See if you can spot yours.  :icon_wink:

There is a dilemma where the Griffon Banner and Banner of Sigismund are concerned: they were obviously removed from the Heirloom's range on purpose. Should they perhaps be kept there, touchable only by a BSB?

I have tried to make it so that there are banners worth taking on every unit.
Comments and criticism please.

Magic Standards:
Imperial Banner: 100 points. Same as before

Emperor's Standard: 75 points. In all combats within 12" which include friendly Empire troops, the friendly Empire troops receive +1 to their total combat resolution. (The unit carrying this standard still gets +1 from the Battle Standard Bearer).

Griffon Standard: 50 points. Same as before

Banner of Sigismund: 50 points. Same as before

Banner of the Demonslayer: 50 points. No longer restricted to knightly orders. The unit carrying the Banner of the Demonslayer causes fear during the turn when it charges into combat. (From the moment it is found to be in charge range to the end of the turn. Additionally, the unit may ignore the results of any failed fear or terror check on the turn it charges.

Standard of Training: 40 points. State troops only. This parent unit counts as being a detachment to its detachments, who also count as each other's detachments. The parent unit still causes panic in other units.

Banner of Morr: 40 points. Undead units cannot be raised or healed of wounds within 6" of this unit. Undead units in base contact with the standard bearer lose twice as many models from combat resolution, and automatically fail regeneration saves.

Banner of the Line: 35 points. This unit and its detachments may re-roll failed rolls to hit with ranged weapons. Additionally, they do not suffer the usual -1 to hit from shooting.

Standard of Steadfastness: 35 points. The unit always retaliates with all possible models, regardless of casualties suffered. Note: if the Champion was slain before getting to retaliate, the unit does not benefit from HIS retaliations. (it makes 1 attack not two, for the champion).

Blessed Banner of Sigmar. 30 points. Bound spell, power level 4. This banner can cast any of the the Prayers of Sigmar from the Warrior Priest list with a range of 12". If the spell must be cast on the warrior priest, it must instead be cast on the standard bearer.

Banner of Valour: 30 points. This unit and its detachments are Immune to Panic.

Standard of Arcane Warding: 30 points. Same as before

Standard of the Glorious Charge: 30 points. Knightly Orders only. Enemy chargers stop 1" in front of the Knightly Orders unit that bears this standard, and the Empire knights move into contact as if they had charged. The enemy chargers strike first with all charge bonuses, but the Knightly Orders also count as charging. (Receiving, among other benefits, thei +2 S from their lances.

Burning Banner: 25 points. All attacks made by units carrying the banner are flaming attacks, and count as magical.

Steel Standard: 20 points. Same as before

Standard of Martyrs: 20 points. Heroes in the unit always pass their 'Look out sir!' rolls, and if they are singled out from the unit by shooting or magical attacks, they get a 'Look out sir!' roll, (which they do not automatically pass.

Banner of Duty: 10 points. This unit and its detachments may re-roll failed Rally checks.

Banner of Heroics: 10 points. If a champion in this unit declares a challenge, they select which enemy character or champion accepts, if any.
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Offline Warlord

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Re: Army Book: Magic Banners
« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2010, 04:59:29 AM »
Quote
Banner of the Demonslayer

Should still only be knights only.

Quote
Standard of Training: 40 points. State troops only. This parent unit counts as being a detachment to its detachments, who also count as each other's detachments. The parent unit still causes panic in other units.

I disagree with this is a rule in principle. Should be:
“Free Reform with no movement penalty” instead.

Quote
Banner of Morr: 40 points. Undead units cannot be raised or healed of wounds within 6" of this unit. Undead units in base contact with the standard bearer lose twice as many models from combat resolution, and automatically fail regeneration saves.

WAY too powerful. Especially the ‘lose twice as many models from CR’ part.  Should be:

Banner of Morr: 40 points. Undead units cannot be raised or healed of wounds, nor can they regenerate wounds within 6" of this unit. Any Undead units within 6”, should they lose combat, each suffer an additional 1 wound.

Quote
Banner of the Line: 35 points. This unit and its detachments may re-roll failed rolls to hit with ranged weapons. Additionally, they do not suffer the usual -1 to hit from shooting.
Do you mean -1 to hit from shooting at long range? And it should be reroll 1’s to hit. And be only 25pts.

Quote
Standard of Steadfastness: 35 points. The unit always retaliates with all possible models, regardless of casualties suffered. Note: if the Champion was slain before getting to retaliate, the unit does not benefit from HIS retaliations. (it makes 1 attack not two, for the champion).
I don’t like this one. At all. I know its intention, but I really don’t like it, and think it should be removed.

Quote
Blessed Banner of Sigmar. 30 points. Bound spell, power level 4. This banner can cast any of the the Prayers of Sigmar from the Warrior Priest list with a range of 12". If the spell must be cast on the warrior priest, it must instead be cast on the standard bearer.

Change this one to:
Bound spell, power level 4. This banner can cast any of the Prayers of Sigmar from the Warrior Priest list with a range of 6". If the spell must be cast on a Warrior Priest, or any character or champion with range.

Range is smaller, and targets are more broad.

Quote
Burning Banner: 25 points. All attacks made by units carrying the banner are flaming attacks, and count as magical.

Don’t like this one. Should be equipment option for free company, not a magic banner. Feels a bit too demonic. Alternatively, you could change it to:

Consecrated Banner: 20 points. All attacks made by the unit carrying the banner count as magical.

Quote
Banner of Duty: 10 points. This unit and its detachments may re-roll failed Rally checks.

In the case of detachments, it is only applicable if the parent is not fleeing (but range doesn’t matter)

Quote
Banner of Heroics: 10 points. If a champion in this unit declares a challenge, they select which enemy character or champion accepts, if any.

I think this one is perhaps a bit too overpowered for the cost. I think instead it should be if a champion accepts a challenge, the Champion is given a 4+ WS, and the banner should cost 20pts.
Quote from: Gneisenau
I hate people who don't paint their armies, hate them with all my guts. Beats me how they value other things over painting, like eating or brushing teeth.

Offline der Hurenwiebel

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Re: Army Book: Magic Banners
« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2010, 09:22:02 AM »
Banner of Faith. 

Rank bonus's count towards the power level of any warrior priests attached or within 6 inches of the unit.  1 rank = (+1 to WP's prayer power level) 3 ranks= (+3 to WP's prayer power level)

We can haggle over the cost.

 
"DEfighter wrote:
Hey, trolls stay the hell out, this is a serious thread. Empire are cheese. 2 steam tanks, a war altar and 4 cannons is so obviously overpowered. Anyone who thinks otherwise clearly hasn't had their dragon shot down on turn 1 yet."

oh really now.  LOL ROFLMAO oh the irony.

Offline Fandir Nightshade

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Re: Army Book: Magic Banners
« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2010, 09:34:44 AM »
I dislike army specific magic items. But that is just me

how about this one (I think there should be banners that improve all kind of state troopers so handgunners should get something too)

Colours of fire drill
25 points the unit can shoot twice this turn with an additional -1 to hit modifier.

Colours of nerves of steel
25 points the unit can always stand and shoot (the wood elves have the exact same banner)

Demonslayer should be (unit causes fear 50 points knights only)

I like warlords banner of sigmar suggestion right now we have no banner with a bound spell.

Also I would like a hatred banner perhaps something like

banner of Fury of the white wolf
30 points hatred

also peek into the middenheim list and pick out some of the banners there perhaps?

Offline kk14

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Re: Army Book: Magic Banners
« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2010, 07:19:09 PM »
I deliberately put the preliminary banners at more powerful than intended. Mostly, I am afraid that if the Griffon Banner is 50 points and you can take it with the Heirloom power, there is no cause to take anything else. Why would I take anything over +3 CR? for 50 points?

That is why the Demonslayer banner was made available to all: otherwise the Griffon standard has no competition for the 50 point banner spot. By putting both Sigismund and Demonslayer there, people will at least have to think twice.  Also, if the other banners are juicy, then there will be cause to take them.

No hatred: that's what warrior priests are for.

Banner of Morr: 40 points. Undead units within 8" cannot be raised or healed of wounds, nor can they regenerate wounds. Any Undead units in base contact, should they lose combat, do not reduce wounds taken from their Battle Standard Bearer.
- if it's only 6" then they can raise a unit 7" away and still charge, I realize.

Banner of the Line: 25 points. This unit and its detachments may re-roll rolls of 1 to hit with ranged weapons. Additionally, they do not suffer the usual -1 to hit from standing and shooting. *fixed*

Blessed Banner of Sigmar: 30 points. Bound spell, power level 4. This banner can cast any of the Prayers of Sigmar from the Warrior Priest list with a range of 6". If the spell must be cast on a Warrior Priest, it may instead be cast on any character or champion with range.

Burning banner: I think the flaming and magical are necessary in order to handle regeneration, as well as ethereal units. I agree that it seems too demonic. Why though, should it be an upgrade for free company? (and would it be flaming or magical or both, for them?)

Banner of training: The Tomb Kings already have a banner of free reform. Perhaps the parent unit gets a free reform immediately after either of its detachments are charged? But with a reduced cost.

Standard of Martyrs: 20 points. Heroes in the unit always pass their 'Look out sir!' rolls, and if they are singled out from the unit by shooting or magical attacks that deny a 'Look out Sir!' roll, they get a 4+ Ward Save.

I don't think the banner of Heroics is too strong, because the choice is never going to be that good. Only if they have a weak mage and a fighty character in the unit will you really devastate them. Otherwise they accept and you choose between a champion and a fighty character, or you send a champion to the back of the unit.

Banner of Duty: 10 points. This unit and its detachments may re-roll failed Rally checks. The detachments may use this ability regardless of distance from the parent unit, but may not re-roll at all if the parent unit is fleeing.

Banner of Valour: 30 points. This unit and its detachments within 3" are Immune to Panic. The detachments lose the benefit of this banner if the parent unit is fleeing.

Steadfast Ox: Sadly, Warlord, I agree with you. I disliked it as a halberdier fix and dislike it now. The worst part is, it only swings the CR average at most 1.5 either way, 2 for greatswords, making it little more than a chancy warbanner. It is to be removed.

The emperor's standard is also probably being removed. it should stay unique to Ludwig Schwartzhelm. (sp?)
If you can't convince the voters to accept your view, and you take to the gun, you are by definition anti-American.

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Offline der Hurenwiebel

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Re: Army Book: Magic Banners
« Reply #5 on: February 20, 2010, 03:55:12 AM »
So essentially the banner of faith performs the same role for priests as that which the rod of power performs for Wizards I propose 30 pts for it.  What do you folks think? 
"DEfighter wrote:
Hey, trolls stay the hell out, this is a serious thread. Empire are cheese. 2 steam tanks, a war altar and 4 cannons is so obviously overpowered. Anyone who thinks otherwise clearly hasn't had their dragon shot down on turn 1 yet."

oh really now.  LOL ROFLMAO oh the irony.

Offline Helgrim

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Re: Army Book: Magic Banners
« Reply #6 on: February 20, 2010, 06:13:59 PM »
I think the heroic banners would never not be taken. It's a perfect way to stop that uber killy character from destroying your ranks for the turn you need to bring support in. too cheap. especially if you consider that you could potentially put both a priests prayer of 4+ward, if dispelled then use the bound banner, etc.up its cost to 25.

Offline kk14

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Re: Army Book: Magic Banners
« Reply #7 on: February 20, 2010, 06:30:40 PM »
Banner of Faith: mulling it over, my impression is that it is slightly stronger than the rod, because a) the priest automatically gets the bonus, b) the priest automatically casts his spell, c) it allows an Arch Lector to cast two PL 7 prayers.

Against it: a) it is a banner (so more expensive and worth more VPs than the rod, as an item) and b) it is not as flexible as the rod of power.

Perhaps 35 or 40 points?
Or perhaps an amalgam of it and the above Blessed banner of Sigmar? A warrior priest can cast a bound spell again at a power level of 1+ rank bonus, value 25 points?
If you can't convince the voters to accept your view, and you take to the gun, you are by definition anti-American.

Veni, Vidi, domum meum redire volo.

Offline der Hurenwiebel

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Re: Army Book: Magic Banners
« Reply #8 on: February 20, 2010, 10:04:39 PM »
hmm no not an amalgam but I do think 35 points could do.  As you say it's worth something to the enemy if it's captured which the RoP isn't.

And in use with a WP in a unit of Greatswords with Full RB he'd suck up dispel dice like nobody's business. and may even get a prayer off once in a while.  Note I've NEVER gotten off a key prayer when playing against even a mid level opponent at current power levels.  Against a magic heavy Vamp or demon list this might even things up a touch.
"DEfighter wrote:
Hey, trolls stay the hell out, this is a serious thread. Empire are cheese. 2 steam tanks, a war altar and 4 cannons is so obviously overpowered. Anyone who thinks otherwise clearly hasn't had their dragon shot down on turn 1 yet."

oh really now.  LOL ROFLMAO oh the irony.

Offline Warlord

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Re: Army Book: Magic Banners
« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2010, 05:36:12 AM »
Burning banner: I think the flaming and magical are necessary in order to handle regeneration, as well as ethereal units. I agree that it seems too demonic. Why though, should it be an upgrade for free company? (and would it be flaming or magical or both, for them?)

No, you misunderstood. Free Company should have an option for flaming weapons, meaning having a banner which gives flaming attacks would not be needed.

A Banner which causes flaming attacks should not be an Empire item. Magic attacks, yes - definitely.
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I hate people who don't paint their armies, hate them with all my guts. Beats me how they value other things over painting, like eating or brushing teeth.

Offline Dezzo

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Re: Army Book: Magic Banners
« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2010, 09:39:58 AM »
How about a magic banner that grants the unit conditional Unbreakablilty?

Banner of Fanaticism. 50 points
Unit is Unbreakable. At the start of your turn, roll 1d6. On a result of 3 or less, this effect ends. One use only. The unit also loses this ability if the bearer of the banner is destroyed.

Offline Johedl

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Re: Army Book: Magic Banners
« Reply #11 on: April 06, 2010, 08:45:57 AM »
I posted this under Knights but here I go again.
Banner of the White Wolf. 30p IC knights only. In the turn the unit charges their opponents allways strikes last even if they have the ASF ability.
Fixes the disconcernes people have about GW and knights without having to make new rules for special weapons.

Offline GambitGriffin

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Re: Army Book: Magic Banners
« Reply #12 on: April 07, 2010, 04:52:47 PM »
How about:

Banner of the trusted shield: The unit gets a 4+ ward save against shooting.

Banner of the eagle eye: The unit get 360* LoS.

Standard of the adventure: The unit can allways march.

Just some ideas.

Offline drew

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Re: Army Book: Magic Banners
« Reply #13 on: May 27, 2010, 04:36:22 PM »
maybe a banner that lets characters and champions ignore ward saves in combat, something like 'the banner of exorcism'
« Last Edit: February 28, 2011, 09:53:02 PM by drew »

Offline Warlord

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Re: Army Book: Magic Banners
« Reply #14 on: May 28, 2010, 12:27:31 AM »
Not a bad idea drew!

I also like the one for the White Wolves mentioned by Johedl, and the Eagle Eye and Adventure ones from GambitGriffin.
Quote from: Gneisenau
I hate people who don't paint their armies, hate them with all my guts. Beats me how they value other things over painting, like eating or brushing teeth.

Offline Warlord

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Re: Army Book: Magic Banners
« Reply #15 on: September 29, 2010, 09:45:53 AM »
There are only a couple of Banners that aren't really applicable in 8th:
- Imperial Banner
- Standard of Steadfastness
- Burning Banner

Burning Banner already covered by the new banners.

I think perhaps the Banner of Heroics needs to be a bit more expensive...
Quote from: Gneisenau
I hate people who don't paint their armies, hate them with all my guts. Beats me how they value other things over painting, like eating or brushing teeth.