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Author Topic: 8th Ed BRB - 7th Ed AB Empire Handbook to Armylist creation  (Read 21865 times)

Offline jb7090

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Re: 8th Edition Empire Handbook to Armylist creation
« Reply #25 on: April 10, 2011, 12:46:16 PM »

General of the Empire
Pro:
+ Free banner for a core unit
Neg:


Please correct me if I'm wrong here, but to my knowledge that banner isnt free....you still have to pay for it but having the general as your general simply gives you the option to take it.

Offline StealthKnightSteg

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Re: 8th Edition Empire Handbook to Armylist creation
« Reply #26 on: April 10, 2011, 02:09:53 PM »
That is what I meant, but I can see the word "free" gives the confusion you describe, i'll change it.
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Offline csjarrat

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Re: 8th Edition Empire Handbook to Armylist creation
« Reply #27 on: April 13, 2011, 02:39:16 PM »
would be nice to mention in the TGM section as a positive, that he already comes with weapon + armour + makes his unit ItP
Compared to the state troops they are a gentle handjob on a friday evening - jaggedjimmyj in ref to knights

Offline StealthKnightSteg

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Re: 8th Edition Empire Handbook to Armylist creation
« Reply #28 on: April 13, 2011, 03:06:28 PM »
would be nice to mention in the TGM section as a positive, that he already comes with weapon + armour + makes his unit ItP

Good suggestion, I added it along with some obvious negative points for him aswell
Everyone is entitled to be stupid, but some abuse the privilege.

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Offline mcpolle

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Re: 8th Edition Empire Handbook to Armylist creation
« Reply #29 on: April 14, 2011, 08:31:37 PM »
Use exactly the two versions of the Captain on the peg, like them both, just a shame cannot fit them both into the army:-)

Otherwise a very good summary, not too sure on those pistoliers tho, real shame actually, as the models are very nice, but hitting on 5+ at short range, not even thinking on other modifiers, just ain't gonna do it. anything that is skirmishing, in a little bit of terrain, then you are screwed:-(

Outriders, are very terrain dependent, tried with two units of ten, on paper look great, but when you actually try it, first turn ,lots of dice, and only hitting on 5+ again, and again very dependent on terrain, a little of that and we are back up to 6+ again.

Have had a good lot of success, with 30 Gt swords, with an AL on foot, giving them STubborn LD 9 and hatred, works rather well. But then we do lose out on the War altar, which is pretty dandy.

Anyway, that is my two peneth:-)

Good thread, keep up the good work.

Polle


Offline StealthKnightSteg

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Re: 8th Edition Empire Handbook to Armylist creation
« Reply #30 on: April 17, 2011, 09:47:50 AM »
Updated the Heroes section to my intended standard, any comment or additions welcome!

Other sections will follow soon
Everyone is entitled to be stupid, but some abuse the privilege.

"Computer games don't affect kids; I mean if Pac-Man affected us as kids, we'd all be running around in darkened rooms, munching magic pills and listening to repetitive electronic music." -- Kristian Wilson, Nintendo, Inc, 1989

Offline StealthKnightSteg

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Re: 8th Edition Empire Handbook to Armylist creation
« Reply #31 on: April 21, 2011, 08:54:47 AM »
Up you go!
Everyone is entitled to be stupid, but some abuse the privilege.

"Computer games don't affect kids; I mean if Pac-Man affected us as kids, we'd all be running around in darkened rooms, munching magic pills and listening to repetitive electronic music." -- Kristian Wilson, Nintendo, Inc, 1989

Offline Swordthain

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Re: 8th Edition Empire Handbook to Armylist creation
« Reply #32 on: April 22, 2011, 03:57:13 AM »
As a long-time Dwarf player (so I know the exact post(s) you looked at when you got the idea to do this -excellent that you followed up on a good idea, by the  way), I am starting a campaign over this coming Summer using The Empire. I have my first game (it'll be my second game playing Empire) on Saturday. I've been running through the army book over and over, and I think I agree almost 100% on your assessments. In fact, it actually confirms a lot of my assumptions, so it's really helpful!

I'm so glad that I didn't waste my money or time on all those Bretonnian Men-at-Arms to serve as Halberdiers! LOL

Offline Enfant Terrible

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Re: 8th Edition Empire Handbook to Armylist creation
« Reply #33 on: April 22, 2011, 12:46:20 PM »
Excellent article .... I'm new to warhammer and was considering playing Empire. This article has given me invaluable insights - excellent job! Thanks.

Offline warhammerlord_soth

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Re: 8th Edition Empire Handbook to Armylist creation
« Reply #34 on: April 22, 2011, 01:14:32 PM »
I'll make it dissappear then...


I'll sticky the thread.
Have one  on Midaski's tab.  :::cheers:::
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Offline MyLittlePony

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Re: 8th Edition Empire Handbook to Armylist creation
« Reply #35 on: May 14, 2011, 08:49:53 AM »
This is soo useful wow thanks  :::cheers:::

Offline Cannonofdoom

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Re: 8th Edition Empire Handbook to Armylist creation
« Reply #36 on: May 14, 2011, 10:55:33 AM »
General of the Empire
Pro:
+ Banner option for a core unit
+ Cheap LD9 option.
Neg:
- Not much extra to offer compared to a TMG or AL
Mounts:
* Not really seen on a griffon, and when used with an Imperial Pegasus it is usually an improved version of a Captasus and then not as the General option.
Commonly used Items:
* A good option for great weapons, because Initiative 5 is not all that great for a character, so he'll be going last in most challenges anyway.
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Offline a18no

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Re: 8th Edition Empire Handbook to Armylist creation
« Reply #37 on: May 21, 2011, 11:53:27 PM »
I'm new here! I'm supposed to buy an empire army soon. It's gonna be my 6th army, 3 of those I own now, the others were traded.

Nice article by the way!

Too give a little hints: ALWAYS field a champion with handgunner. And give him brace of pistols for free. That way, they always stand and shoot at short range for only 5pts... a gift!

Good luck!

Offline StealthKnightSteg

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Re: 8th Edition Empire Handbook to Armylist creation
« Reply #38 on: May 22, 2011, 08:20:41 AM »
I'm new here! I'm supposed to buy an empire army soon. It's gonna be my 6th army, 3 of those I own now, the others were traded.

Nice article by the way!

Too give a little hints: ALWAYS field a champion with handgunner. And give him brace of pistols for free. That way, they always stand and shoot at short range for only 5pts... a gift!

Good luck!

It is a nice option for sure but too situational, as your handgunner unit needs to get charged from the front to do a stand and shoot even. In 6 games my handgunners took only one charge from the front.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2011, 08:45:56 AM by StealthKnightSteg »
Everyone is entitled to be stupid, but some abuse the privilege.

"Computer games don't affect kids; I mean if Pac-Man affected us as kids, we'd all be running around in darkened rooms, munching magic pills and listening to repetitive electronic music." -- Kristian Wilson, Nintendo, Inc, 1989

Offline Cannonofdoom

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Re: 8th Edition Empire Handbook to Armylist creation
« Reply #39 on: May 22, 2011, 01:01:07 PM »
I'm new here! I'm supposed to buy an empire army soon. It's gonna be my 6th army, 3 of those I own now, the others were traded.

Nice article by the way!

Too give a little hints: ALWAYS field a champion with handgunner. And give him brace of pistols for free. That way, they always stand and shoot at short range for only 5pts... a gift!

Good luck!

It is a nice option for sure but too situational, as your handgunner unit needs to get charged from the front to do a stand and shoot even. In 6 games my handgunners took only one charge from the front.
Plus, you are still paying the 8 points for the handgunner who will now not be shooting at long range, so it's 13 points for the ability to stand and shoot at short range.
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Offline Cannonofdoom

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Re: 8th Edition Empire Handbook to Armylist creation
« Reply #40 on: May 22, 2011, 01:10:42 PM »
Archers and their upgrade unit Huntsmen
They lost most of their usefulness in this edition, skirmisher line up is now too small to be real effective screens, their shooting ability is very low, march blocking and redirecting are also instances that are now lowered in their effectiveness and therefor they are very costly for the effective roles they now have. The best use of archers is in units of 10 as actual screening units granting hard cover to units behind them. Huntsmen are not completely useless, because a unit of 20 scouting can actually do some damage in round one. 200 points is an awful lot to spend on a unit that is almost assured to be dead swiftly, but if used properly it can be effective. Again, it is a specific role for which they are still too expensive, but they CAN be effective.
Detachments of 5 are still seen but usually only in special circumstances (pulling out goblin fanatics for example). It is never worth it to upgrade the unit with a Marksman.
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Offline Cannonofdoom

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Re: 8th Edition Empire Handbook to Armylist creation
« Reply #41 on: May 22, 2011, 01:39:02 PM »
A Note on Detachments in 8th Edition:

At first glance, detachments are a no-brainer instant addition to any list. They don't cause panic (which is amazing), they allow use of the many detachment rules which can change the course of an entire battle, and they offer a degree of flexibility that many armies merely WISH they could muster. In 7th Edition, if you didn't take detachments, then you were robbing yourself of the strongest Empire ability. I am in no way going to diminish any of these factors. Detachments can be extremely powerful additions to your forces, and you should strongly consider adding them to your list every time you begin building your army.

Unfortunately, there are now many reasons NOT to take detachments. 8th Edition changed the dynamic of the way the game is played in such a way that detachments are no longer an automatic inclusion in many lists. In fact, I have found myself leaving detachments out of my lists more and more. Let's run down the pros and cons of each detachment type.

Handgun / Crossbow Detachment.
Ballistic Skill shooting has lost a lot of it's glimmer with the advent of giant blocks of infantry all over 8th Edition. Whittling enemy blocks is now the purview of Mortars, Rocket Batteries, and mages, and the mighty Handgun has been relegated to a more pedestrian task of picking off cavalry and other shooting units. They are almost never worth it. The only task I think they would be useful for is protecting warmachines, and then you would be better off with a non-detachment unit that can take a banner and musician.

Archer Detachment.
Just .... no. Bows are move and shoot, and skirmish is nice, but these guys should be 5 points now, so 8 points is just too much for a throw-away screener unit that mostly gets sacrificed in a role that Free Company could do better.

Combat Detachment (Swordmen, Halberdiers, Free Company).
They get counter charge and supporting charge, which are still powerful. But in order to disrupt ranks, they need to have two full ranks themselves. Disrupting ranks does not negate steadfast, so hopefully your parent unit will be able to do that on it's own. For the most part, Swordsmen are now best for this task, because they have the best survivability to help keep their ranks. Halberdiers are good too, because they will help with some extra kills, but they will also take more in return. Free Company, which once held the rank of Best Detachment choice, are now rarely seen in my lists, and then only in 5 man detachments used to draw out or redirect nastiness such as fanatics or frenzied troops.

Finally, there is the Big Question. Can I include detachments, and still meet my Core requirement? They don't count towards your Core choices! This was not a big deal in 7th Edition, because you could field three core units with full complements of detachments no problem. In the world of 8th Edition, bigger units, more artillery, and more characters means fewer points to go around. That 25% Core Requirement has become a premium. This is the number one reason I find myself leaving them at home. Their benefits do not outweigh the extra Core Units I have to take to make up for their presence in my lists. It is unfortunate that this is the case, but the fact of the matter is that two units of 40 halberdiers with full command, and a unit of 20 Crossbowmen just does not equal 25% Core, and adding detachments will only make it MORE difficult to meet that requirement, not to mention that maneuverability seriously begins to become a problem with such large blocks all over the field.

Detachments have their place, and they are a great tool that we have in our arsenal. Just don't feel that you HAVE to use them, and if they don't fit into your list, don't feel that you have to force them in there even if they weaken your overall battle plan.
CannonofDoom spews his shit at me all the time and I haven't banned him.

Offline StealthKnightSteg

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Re: 8th Edition Empire Handbook to Armylist creation
« Reply #42 on: May 22, 2011, 02:16:42 PM »
very good addition Cannon! And even better sumup about the detachments.

Only reason for me with all your mentioned cases is a 6 man unit of Free Company.

It's only 30 points which doesn't hamper me too much in points. I field them in 2x3 and for two reasons.
First is screening of units next to my blocks, but only partially. More so to provide a bit broader Look Out Sir! protection for my wandering wizards.
Second and most important role is to provide me with extra combat resolution with a charge and flank.
I find it better to let the enemy test then I would need to test myself even if it is on a re-rollable Ld9. 2 extra points on combat resolution gives me just a bit more chance to let them test.
Any other reason for me to take a detachment is if I stil want something shooting in my list with only a few points left then I might add 5-8 handgunners orso.
Everyone is entitled to be stupid, but some abuse the privilege.

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Offline StealthKnightSteg

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Re: 8th Edition Empire Handbook to Armylist creation
« Reply #43 on: July 08, 2011, 12:09:23 PM »
editted Core post now completly for every unit their Pro, Neg and options.

Also updated a post that I had asking for a sticky to include Empire specific rules that influence your army building. First piece in here: Detachments with credits going to CannonofDoom.

Edit: Also updated Special section
« Last Edit: July 08, 2011, 12:41:43 PM by StealthKnightSteg »
Everyone is entitled to be stupid, but some abuse the privilege.

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Offline StealthKnightSteg

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Re: 8th Edition Empire Handbook to Armylist creation
« Reply #44 on: July 13, 2011, 10:46:18 AM »
editted Core post now completly for every unit their Pro, Neg and options.

Also updated a post that I had asking for a sticky to include Empire specific rules that influence your army building. First piece in here: Detachments with credits going to CannonofDoom.

Edit: Also updated Special section

Also Rare section updated.

Now the process can begin to add players findings on the units use. So please post any comments you have on them and if there are more people confirming those Pro's and Neg's (or other comments) I can then add them.

As for now I hope this list will help alot of (first time) Empire army list builders.
Everyone is entitled to be stupid, but some abuse the privilege.

"Computer games don't affect kids; I mean if Pac-Man affected us as kids, we'd all be running around in darkened rooms, munching magic pills and listening to repetitive electronic music." -- Kristian Wilson, Nintendo, Inc, 1989

Offline Heinrich_the_Grim

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Re: 8th Edition Empire Handbook to Armylist creation
« Reply #45 on: December 07, 2011, 12:49:13 AM »
recently came back to warhammer & the empire from a long exile, reading this post was invaluable for catching up even thou i daily read & re-read the armybook  :blush:, great initiative! keep it coming on Magic lores pro/con and i'll give you a cookie!  :smile2:
Kill them all, let Sigmar sort them out.

Offline TheElectorCount43

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Re: 8th Edition Empire Handbook to Armylist creation
« Reply #46 on: January 15, 2012, 04:22:35 PM »
A similar conversation occured like this one and I realised then after posting this post that I was wrong, never mind :eusa_wall:
« Last Edit: January 18, 2012, 04:57:45 PM by TheElectorCount43 »

Offline csjarrat

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Re: 8th Edition Empire Handbook to Armylist creation
« Reply #47 on: January 18, 2012, 11:42:39 AM »
no, they have repeater handguns which are move or shoot weapons. you cant ride and reload apparently
Compared to the state troops they are a gentle handjob on a friday evening - jaggedjimmyj in ref to knights

Offline stoiss

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Re: 8th Edition Empire Handbook to Armylist creation
« Reply #48 on: February 05, 2012, 05:26:23 AM »
Nice work :)

It makes it a lot easier for a new Empire player to understand what the different units do, their strengths and weaknesses.

One thing I would like added is some kind of rating of the different unit options.

Stolen from The Tyranid Hive:

A - Useful in almost every situation. Almost always worth the points cost.
B - Useful in most situations, but not all. Worth the points cost if used with proper support.
C - Situational usage. Handy in certain occasions, but those are limited.
D - Limited situational usage at best. You're better off avoiding these unless building a themed army or something similar.
F - Think of the kittens.

Offline StealthKnightSteg

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Re: 8th Edition Empire Handbook to Armylist creation
« Reply #49 on: February 12, 2012, 01:53:32 PM »
Thanks guys, I might pick up on the magic lores, but most have their own situational use and one a bit more then another so that will take some work..

Color coding might look usefull, but I'm trying to give objective and in practise proven facts, but want to keep the choices personal and not make it a do this and don't do that kind of list that will give standardized lists so you will see one list a few thousand times over and over....
Everyone is entitled to be stupid, but some abuse the privilege.

"Computer games don't affect kids; I mean if Pac-Man affected us as kids, we'd all be running around in darkened rooms, munching magic pills and listening to repetitive electronic music." -- Kristian Wilson, Nintendo, Inc, 1989