home

Author Topic: Do we have a cookie cutter list?  (Read 2840 times)

Offline Counts_Champion

  • Posts: 67
    • View Profile
Do we have a cookie cutter list?
« on: June 07, 2012, 01:12:49 AM »
Most other armies seems to have a standard list. Dwarves have the great weapon core and many warmachines, orcs and goblins have monster mash etc.

Do we have a stock standard list type? Or is the beauty of the empire is that we are so versitile that we don't have one?

Thoughts?

Offline Ambrose

  • Posts: 1264
    • View Profile
Re: Do we have a cookie cutter list?
« Reply #1 on: June 07, 2012, 01:58:30 AM »
I am still fairly new to the game (only played 8th edition) and have yet to play everything that is offered for the Empire.  I feel it is one of the most fun aspects of the Empire as it keeps each list new and versatile.

To answer your question, I have not found 'thee' list that works against all opponents.  If there was one, I think I would still be spending countless hours fiddling with ArmyBuilder making list after list.

Ambrose
"Faith, Steel and Gunpowder"

Offline Orcslayer

  • Posts: 570
  • I salute you
    • View Profile
Re: Do we have a cookie cutter list?
« Reply #2 on: June 07, 2012, 02:52:41 AM »
I am only going to do this once, so take very careful notes!

1. Cannon: A must for monsters and if you want to be that @#$^#^% that cannon snipes generals.
2. Core: Let's face it, you need 25% to play a legal game.
3. No mortars: Be real now, after the first few attempts you thought to yourself, "Why the hell are these even in the book?"
4. A BSB: If you are not taking one, my screaming scull catapults laugh at your fleeing units
5. Warrior Priests: The best 65 point unit upgrade ever; prayers, ld 8, and hatred make me very happy.
6. A stunning inability to make cookie cutter lists: Really now, if you want cookie cutter please pick another army. Go on, shoo!
7. A Wizard of some sort: I get that priests cannel, but that plus to dispel is invaluable.
8. Moustaches: For to stroke
9. Codpieces: For to woo the women of the Empire
10. Vollyguns: I couldn't see why you would not run one of these unless your game was so tiny you could not afford one.


There ya go~

W/D/L with new army book: 30/15/20

Offline Freman Bloodglaive

  • Posts: 1032
    • View Profile
Re: Do we have a cookie cutter list?
« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2012, 06:31:23 AM »
Three big blocks of knights and two steam tanks?

No, there are no cookie cutter lists for Empire. Nothing is so powerful that you must take it. Nothing so weak (except perhaps infantry shooting) that you can't consider taking it.
"Reason is a thing of God, inasmuch as there is nothing which God the Maker of all has not provided, disposed, ordained by reason - nothing which He has not willed should be handled and understood by reason" Quintus Tertullian

Offline The Peacemaker

  • Posts: 2074
  • Baron Karl von Balombine of Wissenland
    • View Profile
Re: Do we have a cookie cutter list?
« Reply #4 on: June 07, 2012, 07:07:34 AM »
Umm, here are the must haves for cookie cutter:

2 Hellblasters, each with engineer.
2-3cannons.
1-2 Stanks.
BSB
Priest

The above is pretty much non-debateable.
But in all honesty there hasn't been enough time for a cookie cutter build to take shape yet. It requires people making various army lists, seeing what works well in ALL situations then putting them all in one list.

Currently Core is up for debate. Go full knights or go big block infantry.
In truth, the mixed arms tactics seem feasable and give you the most flexibility. So a cookie cutter would probably have something like this:
40-60Halberds with the BSB + priest
20-30 Halberd detachment.
5 man archer squad? - a second halberd detach makes things unwieldy. Then the parent + detachs take up ALOT of space and you run into problems placing the Hellblasters.

10+ Squad of inner circle knights(or special knights) accompanied with priest.
Or Demi-gryph knights.


Honeslty I don't think enough people have played with the Newest toys: demi-gryphs, and the wizzard wagons to see if they are cookie cutter worthy. Although Demi-gryphs is getting positive feedback and could make it into the finals.
For Wissenland and the Countess!!!

My Painting Blog
My Entire Gallery

Offline Lord Solar Plexus

  • Posts: 3212
    • View Profile
Re: Do we have a cookie cutter list?
« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2012, 08:13:17 AM »
Umm, here are the must haves for cookie cutter:
...
The above is pretty much non-debateable.

Wow, a statement like that would be reason enough for me not to include any of those models.
Suppose you were an idiot, and suppose you were a member of Congress; but I repeat myself. - S. Clemens

www.tablepott.de - Wir sind das Ruhrgebiet!
www.rheinerftliga.haarrrgh.de

Offline warhammerlord_soth

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 10383
  • Eurobash : Looking for the right date. Be there !
    • View Profile
    • My home Forum (dutch)
Re: Do we have a cookie cutter list?
« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2012, 08:40:36 AM »
Have one  on Midaski's tab.  :::cheers:::
Famous last words. R.I.P.


Offline Counts_Champion

  • Posts: 67
    • View Profile
Re: Do we have a cookie cutter list?
« Reply #8 on: June 07, 2012, 04:39:48 PM »
What interesting replies from such a welcoming forum. A simple no would have sufficed.

I can see that the thoughts are that we do not have a cookie cutter list, which is great as I was looking for a versatile style of play.

Offline zifnab0

  • Posts: 2114
    • View Profile
Re: Do we have a cookie cutter list?
« Reply #9 on: June 07, 2012, 04:48:27 PM »
What interesting replies from such a welcoming forum. A simple no would have sufficed.
OK then...no.

Offline Derp

  • Posts: 90
    • View Profile
Re: Do we have a cookie cutter list?
« Reply #10 on: June 07, 2012, 05:28:27 PM »
The above is pretty much non-debateable.

I don't use Hellblasters anymore now that they don't blow up, takes all the fun out of it.  I never liked, nor do I use the Stank either.  Yeah it's cool as balls, but it just doesn't feel right.  I also think that my overwhelming hatred towards Warrior Priests is a well known fact on this board; they're too Catholic for my taste.  The way I play also isn't too conducive to the way BSBs are used, so that one's only a maybe for me.  The cannons, however, I agree with =P

Offline GenOmar

  • Posts: 408
    • View Profile
Re: Do we have a cookie cutter list?
« Reply #11 on: June 07, 2012, 05:46:06 PM »
horde O  halbs with detachment
block of knights (IC pts willing)
-WP for knights
WP/GotE w/ CoC in Halbs
Cannon(s)
DG's/Stubborn knights
HBVG w/ Engy
STank/Mage cart + 2nd HBVG
Lvl 4 Heavens
then sugar to taste. :biggriin:
Save the earth -- It's the only planet with chocolate!

Offline DonJulio

  • Posts: 324
    • View Profile
Re: Do we have a cookie cutter list?
« Reply #12 on: June 07, 2012, 06:29:15 PM »
Ok to answer in a more constructive way, I will recomend you to read this post by Calisson http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=42599.msg705513#msg705513

Offline Hetelic

  • Posts: 220
    • View Profile
Re: Do we have a cookie cutter list?
« Reply #13 on: June 07, 2012, 07:34:55 PM »
i really don't get hellblasters. They're counter-productive to my list.

The new empire is designed to strike out and attack. DGK excell in combat, and units like gS and halbs with WP all hold their own. Even if you go with Cavalry core, your taking units that want to attack and move forward; whereas the hellblaster is designed to sit and take off units coming at you.

You either build a defensive list around helblasters, and sitting back shooting; or you go offensive and forget them to take more offensive minded units. Doing both will get you caught out.

Offline Ambrose

  • Posts: 1264
    • View Profile
Re: Do we have a cookie cutter list?
« Reply #14 on: June 07, 2012, 07:45:35 PM »
i really don't get hellblasters. They're counter-productive to my list.

The new empire is designed to strike out and attack. DGK excell in combat, and units like gS and halbs with WP all hold their own. Even if you go with Cavalry core, your taking units that want to attack and move forward; whereas the hellblaster is designed to sit and take off units coming at you.

You either build a defensive list around helblasters, and sitting back shooting; or you go offensive and forget them to take more offensive minded units. Doing both will get you caught out.

I somewhat agree.  I find there are several armies that want to get into CC, so waiting two turns (I had a Vampire counts get to me in CC on turn two) and softening up their numbers is a legit tactic.  Also, having the knights/DG flank is a good tactic too.  We (Empire) has too much good artillery to simply leave it at home in my opinion.
"Faith, Steel and Gunpowder"

Offline Calisson

  • Bar Brawlers
  • Posts: 730
  • From Druchii.net
    • View Profile
Re: Do we have a cookie cutter list?
« Reply #15 on: June 07, 2012, 09:11:07 PM »
Ok to answer in a more constructive way, I will recomend you to read this post by Calisson Tactica: how to balance an army of the Empire.
Thanks for the quote.
In fact, I'm pushing for as much variety as possible and encouraging non-cookie-cutter lists.

An earlier attempt to define the cookie cutter was made by Warlord: What everyones 8th edition Empire army will look like.

Based on what I've read lately here, there are some unit settings which are more expected than others:

Core:
Infantry:
- 1-2 Large buses of Halberdiers, 5x8, FC, with GOTE (CoC), BSB, WP
- Detachments of Swordsmen, 5x4, or small detachments of 8 Archers.
Cavalry:
- One large unit of 10 IC Knight, FC, lances, with TGM, BSB, WP
- Several units of 5 vanilla Knights, muso, either lance or GW.

Special / Rare:
1-2 units of 4 DemiGriph, lances, muso, pennant
1-2 x {Cannons + Engineer + HVG}
1-2 STank
0-1 Hurricanum (especially with infantry)

Hero/Lord:
Either GOTE or TGM
1-3 WP
As many Engineers as HVG
1 Lvl4 + 1 Lvl1 - Lores are shifting fashion from Life/Shadows to Heavens/Light.

In addition, an Empire army should include either one fast cavalry unit (Pistoliers or Outriders) or a Captasus, but often they are missing.


Reversely, some units are less obvious to use and could raise interrogations:
- AL, especially without WA
- Griffon Beast Wizard
- Witch Hunters
- Several HLR (engineers, Handgun champions)
- Free Companies
- Flagellants
- Handgunners
- Mortars, Helblaster rockets
- Pigeoneers

There is one absolute no-take, that's the Robohorse.


Offline Derek Contyre

  • Posts: 1752
  • Duke of Nueremburg
    • View Profile
Re: Do we have a cookie cutter list?
« Reply #16 on: June 08, 2012, 10:35:29 AM »
The Usual lists we have up here revolve around walls of infantry with cav/war machine support, though with the only two good players being empire(myself and Davido also of this site) our armies invariably look similiar being fans of both infantry and combined arms forces, though he has a penchant for fielding captasus, halberd hordes and lots of handgunners(being nuln and an ex gunline army) whereas my empire seem to rely on more balanced forces without leaning towards one thing, though through seventh is had been combat orientated with demi gryphs and regiments of halberds, flaggies, greatswords and knights, now with 8th my spearmen and archers are coming out with multiple units of missile infantry and fast moving skirmishers and scouts.

That said though, one of the great things about The Empire is that we have such a huge and varied number of units to take to the field now we really have no "cookie cutter list". Other armies may have stuff they feel is needed as a generalised army, but one of the greatest strengths of the Empire is our diversity and the ability to not have everything the same.
We have good combat, good shooting and good magic. those three things make us the best at making balanced armies.

I think we have less of a "cookie cutter list" and more "cookie cutter units".
Everyone seems to think state troops in large units are a must have, while knights and a wizard lord/arch lector are needed also.
BSB's are a must include in many forces, while most will never leave without a warrior prist as part of their army.

Just my observations...
A man who builds his army around his fluff . . . respect . . .  :::cheers:::

Offline Counts_Champion

  • Posts: 67
    • View Profile
Re: Do we have a cookie cutter list?
« Reply #17 on: June 08, 2012, 12:46:57 PM »
That said though, one of the great things about The Empire is that we have such a huge and varied number of units to take to the field now we really have no "cookie cutter list". Other armies may have stuff they feel is needed as a generalised army, but one of the greatest strengths of the Empire is our diversity and the ability to not have everything the same.
We have good combat, good shooting and good magic. those three things make us the best at making balanced armies.

That seems to be a great observation. I really made this thread because it seems that many of the armies I play against have a cookie cutter list, that makes for a very predictable game. Hopefully the new army books will encourage more of a variety. I play Empire, and my LGS has a good deal of Tomb Kings, O&G, Dwarves, Dark Elves, High Elves and Warriors of Chaos. It seems that only the Tomb Kings player and the O&G player varying what they bring to the table while the others seem to field the same units and army composition over and over again. Is it because the Tomb Kings players and the O&G player have new books and the others do not? Possibly....possibly not.

Offline scarletsquig

  • Posts: 797
    • View Profile
Re: Do we have a cookie cutter list?
« Reply #18 on: June 08, 2012, 02:15:48 PM »
A pair of steam tanks is a definite must for any power list.

They are effective at shooting, close combat and points denial.

Solid core of buff-stacked infantry with a bare minimum of BSB, hold the line, and stubborn is also a must-have.

Cannons are variables, you've got a pair of them on the steam tanks already, but they're still powerful choices, especially if you take 3 of them plus 2 steam tanks and murder your opponent's monsters or artillery on turn 1, and then move on to targeting the head of their general (things get un-nerving when you start having enough firepower to not care about look out sir).
« Last Edit: June 08, 2012, 02:20:58 PM by scarletsquig »

Offline Derek Contyre

  • Posts: 1752
  • Duke of Nueremburg
    • View Profile
Re: Do we have a cookie cutter list?
« Reply #19 on: June 09, 2012, 09:52:04 PM »
That seems to be a great observation.

Thanks Counts_Champion  :engel:

I have the feeling that, with the older 7th ed books, the army lists that come popping out are the ones with the "best" units in them competetively, while the newer books have a far greater selection as everything is priced very well(I hope no one even thinks about bringing the swordsmen argument down here... They are priced well, leave it alone  :closed-eyes: ) and we as 8th ed army books have great selections when it comes to building an army now.

@ scarletsquig.
wow, you must play some real competetive people if you feel the need to include 5 cannons in your army lol.
But yes double steam tanks are a must for heavy competetive environs. and bsb's
A man who builds his army around his fluff . . . respect . . .  :::cheers:::

Offline Padre

  • Posts: 3127
    • View Profile
Re: Do we have a cookie cutter list?
« Reply #20 on: June 09, 2012, 09:58:48 PM »
Loads of you are saying we must have Steam Tanks. This saddens me. It is nothing to do with whether it is a wise tactical decision or not, but simply because I vowed a long time ago I would never take one. A LONG time ago. The sad part? It's just about the only vow I have never broken.

Don't make me do it. Don't make me untrue to myself.

Besides, I'd have to scratch build it and I have too many other projects on the go right now.
Photobucket has graciously resurrected my pictures, so my collected works thread is suddenly working again - see http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=38528.0. To see my slowly growing website go to https://bigsmallworlds.com/

Offline Derek Contyre

  • Posts: 1752
  • Duke of Nueremburg
    • View Profile
Re: Do we have a cookie cutter list?
« Reply #21 on: June 09, 2012, 10:09:33 PM »
Loads of you are saying we must have Steam Tanks. This saddens me. It is nothing to do with whether it is a wise tactical decision or not, but simply because I vowed a long time ago I would never take one. A LONG time ago. The sad part? It's just about the only vow I have never broken.

Don't make me do it. Don't make me untrue to myself.

Besides, I'd have to scratch build it and I have too many other projects on the go right now.

Ah padre i hope you didn't mean me did you?
I have never taken a steam tank in 8th edition and i have no plans too... (unless of course i include it in my campaign for a humongous climactic battle in a siege...)
A man who builds his army around his fluff . . . respect . . .  :::cheers:::