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Author Topic: 2400pts - Give Pistoliers a Chance  (Read 1115 times)

Offline patsy02

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2400pts - Give Pistoliers a Chance
« on: August 10, 2013, 08:57:02 PM »
It's time for the local annual tournament, and it wouldn't be the same without my spectacular failure. I've recently come across some pewter pistoliers, and though I think they're essentially shit, I really want make them work. List:

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0 Lord
4 Heroes: 383 Pts.   15.9%
3 Core Units: 724 Pts.   30.1%
7 Elite Units: 1042 Pts.   43.4%
1 Rare Unit: 250 Pts.   10.4%

***************  4 Heroes  *************** 

Captain of the Empire   60 Points
+  Armour of Meteoric Iron 50 Pts.
+ Battlestandard Bearer 25 Pts.
- - - > 135 Points

Warrior Priest   65 Points
+  Great Weapon 5 Pts., Heavy Armour 2 Pts.
+  Steed 12 Pts., Barding 4 Pts.
- - - > 88 Points

Warrior Priest   65 Points
+  Great Weapon 5 Pts., Heavy Armour 2 Pts.
+  Steed 12 Pts., Barding 4 Pts.
- - - > 88 Points

Warrior Priest   65 Points
+  Great Weapon 5 Pts., Heavy Armour 2 Pts.
- - - > 72 Points


***************  3 Core Units  *************** 

34 Swordsmen 238 Pts., Musician 10 Pts., Standardbearer 10 Pts., Champion 10 Pts.
- - - > 268 Points

9 Knights of the Order 198 Pts., Great Weapons free, Musician 10 Pts., Standardbearer 10 Pts., Champion 10 Pts.
- - - > 228 Points

9 Knights of the Order 198 Pts., Lances free, Musician 10 Pts., Standardbearer 10 Pts., Champion 10 Pts.
- - - > 228 Points


***************  7 Elite Units  *************** 

5 Pistoliers 90 Pts.
- - - > 90 Points

5 Pistoliers 90 Pts.
- - - > 90 Points

5 Pistoliers 90 Pts.
- - - > 90 Points

3 Demigryph Knights 174 Pts., Halberds free, Musician 10 Pts., Standardbearer 10 Pts., Champion 10 Pts.
- - - > 204 Points

Great Cannon   120 Points

Great Cannon   120 Points

23 Greatswords 253 Pts., Musician 10 Pts., Standardbearer 10 Pts., Champion 10 Pts.
+ 5 Handgunners 45 Pts.
- - - > 328 Points


***************  1 Rare Unit  *************** 

Steam Tank   250 Points
- - - > 250 Points


Total Points Empire : 2399

Here's the general idea:

1. 12" vanguard + 16" movement on pistoliers gives me the ability to limit up to three enemy infantry units to 1d6" of movement per turn.

2. It also gives me the ability to counter enemy light cav, and to maim chaff and small flying units like carrions and harpies before they can become a threat. If they break through, they can chase warmachines.

3. Lastly, they'll give my knights and demigryphs favourable engagements, hopefully opening up the sides of the enemy army for future flank charges

4. LD8 stubborn/steadfast Swordsmen and Greatswords w/re-rolls form solid core with knights orbiting them.

5. Steam tank is multi-purpose. Can be used as a spearhead into a squishy enemy, as a flanking element alongside knights, or as a tar pit against a particularly nasty unit.

6. Cannon are insurance against dragons, daemons, chariots and enemy warmachines.

7. Empire characters are shit except for when they make troops better. Priests make troops better.

8. Disregard wizards, acquire priests. My lv4 wizard was a 200 point dud last time I played, let's hope I don't need one to dispel things. Channeling dice from the WPs should help, right?

9. ???

10. Finish last.

Should the planets not align and grant me cosmic favour, I reckon most of my pistoliers will be dead within the first two turns having done nothing. Oh well!
I agree with the inhumane treatment of animals.

Offline Vargis

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Re: 2400pts - Give Pistoliers a Chance
« Reply #1 on: August 10, 2013, 10:43:20 PM »
Take my advice with a grain of salt please as I have not been playing for quite some time.

That being said I would at least give a 1+ armor save to the Priest that will end up being your General. 3 Pistolier units might be a bit overkill but then again might prove to be quite nice, I would however give them a musician so they can flee with them with peace of mind.

You mention priests being great because they make our troops better and I would have to agree but, hatred aside, you will likely not get a single prayer off if the enemy has a lvl 4 Wizard. OK maybe one prayer a turn if you drop 5-6 dice on it and hope for irresistible force. That +4 to the dispel roll from the Wizard will just be a nightmare for you.

Which brings us to the enemy magic. With no way to bring a Dispel Scroll of your own and no bonus to dispel you might find yourself pulling your hair out of your head and you models off the table. Magic is fickle now but with no way to mitigate even one good magic phase for your enemy might end the game for you.

If you want to go magic light I would maybe consider a few Witch Hunters to snipe the enemy Wizards and even up the playing field as quick as you can.

Hope my advice helps more than it hurts your list,
-Vargis   

Offline Mortim

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Re: 2400pts - Give Pistoliers a Chance
« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2013, 01:26:20 AM »
he will get many prayers off actualy

just roll 1 Dice per prayer

enemy wiz can roll 1 Dice, but he fails on 1-2 which also ends his dispel attempts. so he will roll 2 Dice just to be sure.

As long as you roll 3+ on every Dice, his dispel Dice run out easy.

Offline patsy02

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Re: 2400pts - Give Pistoliers a Chance
« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2013, 10:03:22 AM »
That's what I was thinking too. My biggest fear is the inevitable lv4 enemy wizard, though. I'm still on the fence about ditching a Pistolier unit and the Hand Gunners for a lv2 wizard.
I agree with the inhumane treatment of animals.

Offline Arfa

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Re: 2400pts - Give Pistoliers a Chance
« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2013, 10:59:04 AM »
he will get many prayers off actualy

just roll 1 Dice per prayer

enemy wiz can roll 1 Dice, but he fails on 1-2 which also ends his dispel attempts. so he will roll 2 Dice just to be sure.

As long as you roll 3+ on every Dice, his dispel Dice run out easy.

You're assuming that all three priests will be in combat (and thus justifying the use of prayers), and even then having targets that need soulfire. I agree with Vargis, a lvl4 will easily dispel anything as he'll just two-dice the important prayers and ignore or one dice the rest. This list will struggle big time against magic, no scroll and no bonus' to dispel is going to hurt like a mofo.

Arfa

Offline Vargis

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Re: 2400pts - Give Pistoliers a Chance
« Reply #5 on: August 12, 2013, 04:16:53 AM »
Here is a great video that highlights why lvl 4 Wizards are taken so often:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1AhutUWdvFg

Offline patsy02

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Re: 2400pts - Give Pistoliers a Chance
« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2013, 01:06:12 PM »
Alright, after some consideration I've decided not to risk being pummeled by enemy magic. I removed a Pistolier unit, a hand gunner unit, and cut some corners by replacing swordsmen with Halberdiers to afford a lv4 Wizard.

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1 Lord: 200 Pts.   8.3%
4 Heroes: 339 Pts.   14.1%
3 Core Units: 702 Pts.   29.2%
6 Elite Units: 907 Pts.   37.7%
1 Rare Unit: 250 Pts.   10.4%

***************  1 Lord  *************** 

Wizard Lord, Level 4 Upgrade
- - - > 200 Points


***************  4 Heroes  *************** 

Captain of the Empire
+  Full Plate Armour
+ Battlestandard Bearer
- - - > 91 Points

Warrior Priest
+  Great Weapon, Heavy Armour
+  Steed, Barding
- - - > 88 Points

Warrior Priest
+  Great Weapon, Heavy Armour
+  Steed, Barding
- - - > 88 Points

Warrior Priest
+  Great Weapon, Heavy Armour
- - - > 72 Points


***************  3 Core Units  *************** 

36 Halberdiers, Musician, Standardbearer, Champion
- - - > 246 Points

9 Knights of the Order, Great Weapons, Musician, Standardbearer, Champion
- - - > 228 Points

9 Knights of the Order, Lances, Musician, Standardbearer, Champion
- - - > 228 Points


***************  6 Elite Units  *************** 

5 Pistoliers
- - - > 90 Points

5 Pistoliers
- - - > 90 Points

3 Demigryph Knights, Halberds, Musician, Standardbearer, Champion
- - - > 204 Points

Great Cannon
- - - > 120 Points

Great Cannon
- - - > 120 Points

23 Greatswords, Musician, Standardbearer, Champion
- - - > 283 Points


***************  1 Rare Unit  *************** 

Steam Tank
- - - > 250 Points


Total Points Empire : 2398
I agree with the inhumane treatment of animals.

Offline swampsheep

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Re: 2400pts - Give Pistoliers a Chance
« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2013, 03:20:02 PM »
I use pistoliers extensively, and at 1500 points and above I have regularly used 2 units. I usually include a champion with repeater pistol as well. I also ought to include a musician, but those points are often used for other purposes.

I use them to win the chaff fights, hunt warmachines and even soften up tougher units. A champion might be expensive (a whopping 38 points in all!) but he can dish out serious damage with 4 pistolshots and BS 4. Statistically speaking, he will roughly deal the same amount of hits as the other 4 pistoliers put together (assuming a somewhat equal spread between long and short range shots).

My main advice is to regard them as a forlorn hope. Accept, that they might die and do not be afraid to risk them, to have them fulfill their goal. March-blocking infantry, charge-redirecting, hunting warmachines and lone characters are all tasks they excel at. 12 shots with S4 and AP are nasty against a lot of things. They can even handle charges from a lot of other chaff units; they always stand and shoot (quick to fire) and there are 10 WS 3 S 3 attacks and 5+ AS.

Another usage is to protect the war marchines. I have often used them to secure against scouts or infiltrators of different kinds and I have also often used their scout move to move them across the battlefield rather than forward towards the enemy.

Example of succesfull tasks in recent games (2 units with champion); kill 4 empire warmachines with shooting (and soften up a couple of other units), deliver the killing wound to a khemrian warsphinx, kill a mournfang cavalrist, delay a chaos warrior unit with marchblocking (and softening it up a bit), secure a flank against a unit of man eaters, kill a tomb scorpion sent to destroy my war machines, kill a couple of bretonnian knights and draw all bow fire away from more critical targets.

They won't win the game for you. But in my experience they will help you control the battlefield so that you can win the game.

Offline patsy02

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Re: 2400pts - Give Pistoliers a Chance
« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2013, 08:12:40 PM »
Quote
But in my experience they will help you control the battlefield so that you can win the game.

That was the idea. I hardly expect them to do much direct damage, and deliberately took them without champions/musicians to make them more expendable, and to save points. Hopefully they'll force some bad decisions out of the opponent.
I agree with the inhumane treatment of animals.

Offline grumpusbumpus

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Re: 2400pts - Give Pistoliers a Chance
« Reply #9 on: August 13, 2013, 05:42:48 AM »
Take musicians.  The 10 extra points per unit can save the unit and / or make it useful for an extra turn or more per game, which is totally worth it.  This is due to the feigned flight rule.  They regroup more readily if they flee, and they can march on a turn after they rally, allowing you to put them into an effective position.

Pistols will not deal out crushing damage, but can plink away at units or potentially kill light units, as others have pointed out.  Sometimes taking a wound or two off a unit matters.

Pistols can win the game for you.  My 100 point unit of pistols, or even the one surviving member of a pistol unit, can annoyingly interpose himself between an opponent's best combat unit, and the flank of one of my units, sacrificing himself to redirect the enemy unit, and there's nothing they can do about it!  This can decide combats, and win the game for you.

I write my pistols off before the game begins.  I take two units in my current list; one on each flank.  They have all died on the first turn against some armies, and against other armies, they've decided combat engagements in my favor.  They almost always die by the end of the game, but generally they get an opportunity to sacrifice themselves to benefit one of my more deadly combat units.

They are an excellent utility unit.  They can redirect, march block, flee to cause a unit to fail its charge, hunt warmachines, kill lone characters, attrit enemy units (even armored targets), kill chaff, charge-bounce fleeing enemies, give cover to your other units from missile fire, etc.  There's also the trick below:



The pistols charge the rear enemy unit while your combat block engages the enemy chaff/speed bump.  You resolve the speed bump fight first, overrun into the rear enemy unit, and fight a second fight with your combat block in a single turn.  Even if the pistols wouldn't stand up in a fight against the rear enemy unit, they let you potentially clobber two enemy units in one turn.

Given that I don't take them to cause serious damage, and given that I expect them to die, I don't take the Outrider with repeater pistol.  Even though it increases their damage output, it makes them pricey for a chaff unit.

The only other real chaff units the Empire has are detachments of archers, or cheap hero characters.  And while archers are cheaper, the fact that pistols are fast cavalry makes them much more useful, in my opinion.  While pistols can win the game for you, you don't build your army around them.  You need some halberds, knights, greatswords, demigryphs, or steam tanks to stand toe-to-toe with the enemy.  The pistols support these units.

Offline patsy02

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Re: 2400pts - Give Pistoliers a Chance
« Reply #10 on: August 13, 2013, 11:30:38 AM »
Quote
Take musicians.  The 10 extra points per unit can save the unit and / or make it useful for an extra turn or more per game, which is totally worth it.  This is due to the feigned flight rule.  They regroup more readily if they flee, and they can march on a turn after they rally, allowing you to put them into an effective position.

I was under the impression that the Fast Cav rule already gave them this ability, which is why I didn't invest in musicians for +1 to rally alone.
I agree with the inhumane treatment of animals.

Offline grumpusbumpus

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Re: 2400pts - Give Pistoliers a Chance
« Reply #11 on: August 13, 2013, 05:30:54 PM »
I feel like someone has pointed this out to me before, but I refused to commit it to memory  :Ohmy:.  Patsy, you sir just saved me 20 points.


Offline patsy02

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Re: 2400pts - Give Pistoliers a Chance
« Reply #12 on: August 13, 2013, 06:30:51 PM »


If I have points to spare, +1 to rally is nice. I never do, though.
I agree with the inhumane treatment of animals.

Offline Noble Korhedron

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Re: 2400pts - Give Pistoliers a Chance
« Reply #13 on: January 12, 2017, 04:54:32 PM »


If I have points to spare, +1 to rally is nice. I never do, though.
Yeah, having the points is often the problem; that +1 to rally can sometimes be a game-winner, though....