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Author Topic: 8th Edition mounted versus Ogres (2.5K)  (Read 1045 times)

Offline elfhunter

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8th Edition mounted versus Ogres (2.5K)
« on: June 05, 2016, 05:22:43 PM »
Hello,
I've never faced Ogres with my empire army, looking forward to it.
I was thinking gunline first but since he moves very fast and is a pretty good shooter himself, I started thinking armour!
The best way to get armour is to get on a horse so...how about this?
Oh, we don't allow casters above lvl 2 and no double steam tanks, no other extra rules.

New List:
Lords
Arch Lector ( Ironcurse icon+ Opal amulet+ Enchanted Shield+ Heavy Armour+ Warhorse+ Barding --> ICK
Grand Master (+ Cloak of Ulric+ Shield+ Sword of might) --> Reiksguard

Heroes
Battle Wizard (+ Level 2 + Earthing rod + Warhorse + Barding)
Battle Wizard (+ Warhorse + Barding+ Speculum+ Scroll of shielding)
Captain Peggy (+ Pegasus+ Lance+ Dragonhelm +Plate + Charmed Shield)
Captain BSB  (+ BSB+ Lance+ Luckstone + Shield +Plate + Warhorse+ Barding)

Core
5 Knightly Orders
5 Knightly Orders
14 Knightly Orders (+ Inner circle+ Champion+BS+ Musician+ Steel standard)

Special
4 Demigryph Knights (+ SB+ mus+ Standard of Discipline)
4 Demigryph Knights (+ SB+ mus+ Gleaming Pennant)
6 Reiksguard Knights (+ mus+ SB)

Rare
Steam Tank



Old list
Lords
Arch Lector ( Ironcurse icon ,Stubborn crown, Enchanted Shield, Heavy Armour, Warhorse, Barding)--> ICK

Heroes
Battle Wizard ( Level 2, Earthing rod, Ruby ring, Warhorse, Barding) --> 4 knights? Shadow?
Battle Wizard (Warhorse, Barding, Speculum, Scroll of shielding) --> ICK, Death?
Captain BSB ( BSB,Cloak of Ulric, Shield,Plate,Warhorse, Barding) --> ICK
Captain Peggy ( Pegasus, Skavenhelm,Plate , Charmed Shield)

Core
5 Knightly Orders
5 Knightly Orders
14 Knightly Orders ( Inner circle,FC,  Steel standard)

Special
4 Demigryph Knights ( SB,  mus,  Standard of Discipline)
4 Demigryph Knights ( SB,  mus,  Gleaming Pennant)
2 Great Cannon
6 Reiksguard Knights( FC, Banner of Swiftness)

Rare
Luminark of Hysh

« Last Edit: June 18, 2016, 06:20:08 AM by elfhunter »

Offline CarolineWellwater

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Re: 8th Edition mounted versus Ogres (2.5K)
« Reply #1 on: June 05, 2016, 09:10:07 PM »
(( Quick thoughts, more when I'm out of the airport.

1) Leadbealchers are highly dangerous.  Shooty, mobile, and competent in melee.  You  might want to look at some sort of screen unit.

2) Since you're on horseback, why not the Knight General, over the Super Priest?   

3) Shadow and Death are pricier to cast, and a bit trickier for level 2 wizards to cast.  They can do it... but you might have to overdice them to ensure a spell gets off.

3a) Bone cracker is a brutal gut spell.  S2, but completely ignores armor.

4)  Cannon is out of place.  Can't keep up with the knights, and easily separated.  You might be better served with one tank... or some Pistoliers.

5) With your LD 9 and BSB, you might be able to save some points and drop the stubborn crown.

5a) Related, it is unclear if Terror transfers to the unit.  You might be better served with a dragon helm instead, and that makes you highly resistant to fire ogres too.

Anyway more in a bit, and hopefully not as jumpy.  ))

Offline elfhunter

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Re: 8th Edition mounted versus Ogres (2.5K)
« Reply #2 on: June 06, 2016, 05:56:30 AM »
Thanks for the quick comments :smile2:
I forgot about the no armour save spell, that might hurt.
The cannons are weird but I need to get that ironblaster down. Hoping the captasus can do it but he might not be enough.
The arch lector saves me a priest. He can give the unit a 5+ save and flaming attacks which could be very useful

Offline CarolineWellwater

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Re: 8th Edition mounted versus Ogres (2.5K)
« Reply #3 on: June 12, 2016, 01:25:37 PM »
(( Hey elfhunter,

Okay, some more comments, hopefully these will be a bit more organized than my last.

1) I've never really been impressed with the Ironcurse Icon.  Your knight units are, overall, kinda small.  And, while if it saves one knight, it has paid for itself, it seems like a very weak type of protection.  Screening / Skirmish units might serve as a better way to block LOS to your knights, while they get into position... such as Huntsmen, who can Scout and Skirmish.

2) Remember, Ogers have high toughness and a number of wounds, and are decently brave.  Instead of a magic shield, you might want to get your Arch Lector a minor-magic weapon, like the Sword of Might.  That way, he offers a better chance to wound.  He does have a couple of attacks on his own, and him being able to reliably give 2 wounds each turn can be enough to take off 1 oger per melee (with wounds caused by the knights.)

3) For your BSB, I think you can still get him a pistol and lance.  The pistol gives him a 12" range to take pot-shots, while the lance lets him do a lance charge.  Strength 6 vs Strength 4 is a huge improvement against ogers for reliability of wounding... at least on the charge turn.

4) For your Wizard, he shouldn't really be anywhere near melee... even with the speculum.  Ogers, overall, rely more on bruteness than quality, and swapping stats may not be terribly useful.

4-a) You also don't have a dispell scroll on either wizard.

4-b) The earthing rod lets you re-roll miscasts, right?  Well... while the ogers might force a miscast on everyone, if you think about it, most miscast results really aren't that bad.  6 - 7 basically just loses you the magic turn... and 6 - 7 are your most often results on 2d6.  You might be able to save a few points, and not bring it.

4-c) Depending on what magic you pick, the Ruby Ring might be redundant.

4-d-1) Along those lines, Shadow, while a bit more to cast, is effective against Ogers; especially if you get the spell that lowers toughness.  Even still, the basic miasma can slow down ogers movement, as well as potentially reducing their WS to 1 (if you roll well).  WS1 vs WS4 means your guys will hit on 3+, but theirs will hit on 5+... causing them to lose some possible hits.

4-d-2) Fire might work decently against Ogers.  The fire would help keep regeneration down (which is a common theme for Gut Magic), Flaming Sword of Rhuin gives you a bonus to wound (meaning you'd be likely to wound on a 3+ instead of a 4+), and while the strength of Fireball is weak, you can get a series number of possible hits from it.

4-d-2-a) Also, Flame Cage works well on Oger units that have to move due to Frenzy, panic or whatever.  Flame cage causes a minor number of auto hits, and then if you can force the same unit to move, will cause a free hit to all models in the unit.  It won't kill the unit, but it may wound the ogers down to 2 wounds each, instead of 3.

5) If at all possible, make sure you get the charge.  Ogers get impact hits when they charge, which can ruin your knights before melee even starts.

5-a) Ogers can also Charge-slaughter-Charge in the same turn.  It doesn't happen often, but they can plow through units and get a second set of free, impact hits.

6) Again, Leadbelchers are an amazing Oger unit.  Competent at shooting and melee, and good at mobility as well.  Serious Oger players will often have Leadbelchers be their line infantry over the Bulls, as they are only a couple of points more expensive, but way more effective to their cost.

7) For your Pegasus Captain... he really has no way to reliably wound the Ogers.  And the Pegasus will not be able to Stomp an Oger.  Over the Skavenhelm and Magic Sheild, I'd suggest a magical weapon and basic shield, like an Oger Blade or something akin to that.  You'll still have a 2+ Armor Save, but now have a more reliable ability to wound the targets the Pegasus wants to wound, letting the Pegasus dart in and out of combat much quicker. 

7-a) With their 20" of movement, it is very easy for the Pegasus to get separated from the main line, and have to deal with troubles all alone.

8) Your IC Knight unit is pretty big.  Keep in mind that your third rank of knights is not going to be giving you much other than +1 to CR... and that's only if you have all 5 still left in that 3rd rank.  Not only that, IC point-upgrades do add up quicker than you'd think.  I'd max out your IC knights at 11 (total of 12 with the character).  You'll still get +1 to CR (since you'd have 6 knights in the 2nd rank), support attacks (from the knights in rank 2), and have some points left over you can put elsewhere.

8-a) Also since you do have IC knights, they can get a magic banner.  A Bannerman with the War Banner or Flaming Banner of Firey Attacks might be useful for the additional +1 to CR, or for helping to keep regeneration down.

9) You might be able to save a few points on your Demigryph knights by dropping the magic banner.  They shouldn't have to be rolling LD tests... let alone re-rolling them.  If you keep them within 12" of your Arch Lector and BSB, they'll get a base LD9 to re-roll anyway.

10) This might be one of the few times that I would suggest the Luminark over the Huricannum.  Why?  The Huricannum does help you hit, and can power itself... but you should already be hitting the Oger's on 3+.  The 6+ Ward Save the Luminark offers, may offer you a better protection against Gut Magic, Armor Pentriation Attacks, Impact Hits, and the sheer volume of attacks that Ogers can generate.

10-a) And the Magnifying Glass of Firey Ant-Burning Death, its ability to cause d3 wounds may actually kill an oger... more likely it'll just really piss an oger off, but it does have the chance to kill one.

10-a-1) If you do go for the Luminark, you might want to swap a wizard for a Light Wizard, just to power up the Luminark a spot.

11) Your basic knights are a bit on the small size.  Keep in mind that Ogers can pack quite a wallop on a small front, and are difficult to dislodge / destroy.  You might want to see if you can make your basic knights up to 7 (8 with character).  That way, they can take some wounds, and still be able to offer a good amount of damage on their own.  It'll also give them a bit more ability to jump in front of bullets for the wizard in their unit.

12) Still... for only a couple more points, you could mecha-robo-merge your two cannons into a steam tank.  The steam tank is a beast, and can still grind into Ogers with alarming effectiveness.  Not to mention that it does have a 1+ Armor Save, and the Engineer who can give you some free pistol shots.

12-a) And the tank is more likely to keep up with your knights, and have better LoS for attacks of opportunity.  At some point, your knights or melee will block LoS to your cannons.

Anyway, just some more quick thoughts.  Good luck! ))

Offline elfhunter

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Re: 8th Edition mounted versus Ogres (2.5K)
« Reply #4 on: June 18, 2016, 06:19:37 AM »
Hmm, thanks for all the input.
The ICK unit has a magic banner, the Steel Standard to make sure they finish the charge.
I think he'll use Firebellies since he cannot field a Slaughtermaster (lvl 4). If he does have regeneration, I have my Archlector who needs to survive.
The Reiskguard is too vulnerable on his own, I like your idea of the Grandmaster.
The Demigryphs have a SB because I like the extra CR, they need the cheap banners to make sure they don't break when one of them is shot. That would kill my SB.
The cannons are too static, I have no defense for them, so a Steam Tank it is.
Also, I'm like magic doing stuff so I don't use the dispel scroll. You might be right about the Earthing Rod, will think on that
So how about this:


Lords
Arch Lector ( Ironcurse icon+ Opal amulet+ Enchanted Shield+ Heavy Armour+ Warhorse+ Barding --> ICK
Grand Master (+ Cloak of Ulric+ Shield+ Sword of might) --> Reiksguard

Heroes
Battle Wizard (+ Level 2 + Earthing rod + Warhorse + Barding)
Battle Wizard (+ Warhorse + Barding+ Speculum+ Scroll of shielding)
Captain Peggy (+ Pegasus+ Lance+ Dragonhelm +Plate + Charmed Shield)
Captain BSB  (+ BSB+ Lance+ Luckstone + Shield +Plate + Warhorse+ Barding)

Core
5 Knightly Orders
5 Knightly Orders
14 Knightly Orders (+ Inner circle+ Champion+BS+ Musician+ Steel standard)

Special
4 Demigryph Knights (+ SB+ mus+ Standard of Discipline)
4 Demigryph Knights (+ SB+ mus+ Gleaming Pennant)
6 Reiksguard Knights (+ mus+ SB)

Rare
Steam Tank
« Last Edit: June 18, 2016, 06:21:41 AM by elfhunter »

Offline Noble Korhedron

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Re: 8th Edition mounted versus Ogres (2.5K)
« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2016, 09:51:23 PM »
Maybe I've gone rusty on the Empire rules, but the Cloak of Ulric....?!

Offline elfhunter

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Re: 8th Edition mounted versus Ogres (2.5K)
« Reply #6 on: June 28, 2016, 02:34:19 PM »
The white one (other colours available on request). It gives 5+ Ward save in close combat, 2+ vs flaming attacks and -1 to hit.

Offline elfhunter

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Re: 8th Edition mounted versus Ogres (2.5K)
« Reply #7 on: July 09, 2016, 07:05:52 AM »
FIGHT TILL THE END
That was a lot of fun. The battle went back and forth. He had a Firebelly, 6 leadbelchers, a Thundertusk, Ironblaster, Gutstar, 6 maneaters with poison and Stubborn, 4 Mournfang, 3 yetis, 20 gnoblars


Sigmar takes
My Steamtank had 3 misfires when checking the boiler in the beginning of the round. I rolled a 1 for movement 2 times in a row. He didn't kill the Ironblaster.
My first unit of Demis was stalled for 3 rounds by [BEEP]-ing Yeti's. Three rounds in a row where 8 attacks never did a wound. So many twos on those dice...
Lots of dangerous terrain tests, armour save tests with ones. As in 4 armour saves tests of 2+ and 4 ones. And this happened more than once.
My Archlector and BSB got killed by the ironblaster. They BOTH failed their look out Sir.
After the second round my Reiksguard was completely leadbelchererd, my general and BSB was dead, my Steamtank had 6 wounds and my demis were doing nothing.

Sigmar gives
He mispositioned his gnoblar and suddenly the demis broke his Yetis and overran into the Maneaters. ME broke and ran of the board.
My second unit of demi's fought the Thundertusk and leadbelchers and ran both of them off!
I multicharged his gutstar, miasmed the [BEEP] out of them and even the VHM Speculum got to challenge and give his Firebelly 2 S3 attacks.
He had only his Mournfangs and Ironblaster left.


Sigmar leaves
We decided to do one more round which let his Ironblaster fire one more time. This one shot killed 3 demis and ran my Captasus of the board.
According to victory points I won but we just cound the points left standing so he won by 110 points.
His Ironblaster killed over 900 points in one game, even with a misfire on the first roll.



Conclusion
A narrow loss but very even armies. The dice were very very weird. So many bad rolls, first for me, then for him, then the Ironblaster killing 270 points in the last round...
It was fun!