Topic: How would a war with Brettonia turn out?

[reiksmarshall]

Yeah, both empire and bretonnia get bored of kicking the smae old skaven, orcs and chaos chaps and start to wonder... how cool would it be to skewer small and furless things/blast men in tin hats from afar? The rest as they say is history (or the future in this case).

[Phydox]

Of course Sigmar could beat the lady of the lake.

In fact, if he did, he'd smash her so hard that it would go back in time and she would have been dead since before Sigmar punched his way out of his mother's womb.

And then, all past battles with Bretonnia would retroactively become Empire victories.

Thanks for the morning laugh Racticas.  I think a cool magic item for our heroes would be stretch crotch pants.  So, our knights could do roundhouse kicks too. mmmm roundhouse kicks in fullplate.  Who needs a sword of might when you have a foot of might?

[Raulmichile]

I wouldn't compare Chuck Norris to Sigmar...I'd say Chuck Norris is more like Khorne, sitting on a mound of skulls that stretch as far as the eyes can see.  That's all the people he has roundhouse kicked, in the last 10 minutes...

Well, I woluld compare Chuck with Sigmar and not with Khorne because they are always the good, handsome guys who invariably win and kiss the nice girl at the end of the story.       They are nice also, and Khorne isn't 

Anyway, seeing Sigmar roundhouse kicking the Lady of the Lake in the face and saying "Told ya, I'm rude baby" instead of kissing her would be nice.

[wisenheimer]

Don't forget, he'd urinate in the lake too. I don't think that Chuck Norris would go that far.

[Phydox]

Well, I woluld compare Chuck with Sigmar and not with Khorne...

Oh come on, where do you think Chuck Norris got his roundhouse kicks?  Martial arts?  I think NOT!  Well, he may have gotten the first one from martial arts but the other 17 into a writhing corpse are definitely Khorne Khnowledge.   

So, we're all in agreement that Chuck Norris would win a fight between the Lady of the Lake, Sigmar, and Khorne?

[duckman]

So, we're all in agreement that Chuck Norris would win a fight between the Lady of the Lake, Sigmar, and Khorne?

Not a hope in hell. Jack Bauer would slap em all silly (he saves punches for tough oppnents.
Remember, you're only alive because Jack hasn't gotten around to killing you yet.

cheers
duckman

[Gargoyle]

On the strength of the arguments placed forward so far, I have to say that Chaimo has carried the day convincingly in my book.
I believe that Bretonnia would wipe the floor with the Empire... at this time.

Bearing in mind that we are attempting to place a historical realism from our own history onto two separate fictional regions it's always going to be open to a variety of perspectives, all with different quantities of passion and fact.

Some people here are under a serious misconception about how far ahead of the Bretonnia the Empire actually are...
The Empire has 9 Steam tanks but they have NO steam trains, no steam tractors for the cultivation of intense production techniques, no steam machinery in factories.
This is not the Industrial Revolution complete with Dickensian tales of woe.
There is no Shropshireberg , there is NO Iron Bridge...
Yes.
They have black powder weapons but no breech loading weapons.
I maintain that the Empire is still very much a feudal economy based on a loose conglomerate of monarchies.
Apart from a few technological gifts from the Dwarves the Empire is very similar in it's make up to Bretonnia.

Bretonnia is not bound by chivalry in it's desires to stretch it's borders.
Chivalry exists at court, in the wooing of the fairer sex and at tournaments...
On the field of battle it's a bloodsport where no quarter need be asked for or given... ask ANY Templar Knight from Palestine to the British Isles.
They were not renowned for their forgiveness.

William the Conqueror was not short on strategy and he took England for himself and made it French.
Strike one for the Breton.

Lastly, the Empire is in such a state right now after the very taxing Chaos incursions that it is wobbling and it is ripe for the picking.

When it gets back opn it's feet it has every possibility of being the strongest nation in the old World but not right now.

[Guvnor]

We are not quite feudal, I stand by my analogy of the English civil war, with the empire being similar to the roundheads. Perhaps a little before his, say after Henry VIII.

I cannot see bretonnians getting into the forests. We would be able to take them down very easily when they have little space to maneuver their big horses.

Ican see the picture, a knight and a few men at arms are walking/trotting down a path, knight removes helet to wipe forehead, BANG BANG BANG, no more Mr knight,  and them some empire soldiers charge out from the trees and stab the men at arms.

I would accept brettonia could advance up to the reik, but not beyond.

It becomes too difficult for a horse based army backed up by badly trained footmen to fight effectively in a forest.

As carlo said we should use game mechanics, I will.

Skirmish/Mordheim style game, LOTS of trees. Only a thin path has no trees.

250pts either side.

Brettonia has to deploy on thin path. All empire men count as hidden (just like mordheim rules).  Empire can deploy anywhere. Empire can target anyone, brettonia can only target nearest seen model.

In this game, I would say the empire have the higher chance of winning, as they surprise, and they can surround the brettonians while powerful knights can't use all their advantages.

I think that we would win by stretching, raiding, ambushing. I'm sure both Carlo and Gargolyle will agree the empire can win by that. Look at the problems US/Uk are having in afghanistan, although it is a little different.

[Hagen_von_Loewenstein]

Also, the current state of the Empire can be pretty much left aside. Yeah, the northern forces are still occupied and had to pay quite a toll, but you will see that most of the southern provinces weren't harmed much by the gentle breeze of Chaos, and after all, that's more or less where the bretonnians would have to come across. Also, when discussing OUR current state, one should also consider that bretonnia wqas weakened as well, already because their King lead a crusade of their finest knights into the north. I don't really believe ALL of them came back, you know?

Secondly, all these debattes about campaigning IN the empire are rather pointless to me, since I don't see any way a reasonably big force could ever make it into the Empire. The only ways they can go are through marshes and swamps (having fun with their full armours and heavy horses) or through rather narrow mountain passes, guarded by strongholds stuffed to the brim with cannons and mortars, (cross)bowmen and handgunners. And even if they made their way past them somehow, they would find their force trying to pour out of a bottleneck, where they will already be expected by another gun-totting force who will feel like shooting fish in a barrel. As I said, in the end, some bretonnians might even break through them, but they certainly won't be enough to keep up any plans of advancing.
And THAT's the real "advancement" the Empire has over Bretonnia. Bretonnian knights know only one manouver on the battlefield - charge with flying banners and readied lances. Their not fighting after a concept of chivalry, but rather a codex of honour which at times is rather cumbersome. Many imperial generals won't have any problems ressorting to dirty, but effective tricks. Combine that with the factors mentioned above and you will see that there will never be a bretonnian force that can invade the Empire AND keep up a reasonable size to continue their campaign.

[Phydox]

I'll give a short war to Bretonia, where Bretonia forms up one massive army, makes a surgical strike at altdorf and kills the Emperor.  Once the Emperor was gone, you would have the Elector Counts trying to jockey for position, Sigmarites and Followers of Ulric at each others' throats, in fighting, and power struggles in the face of foreign invaders in their capital.  In this type of scenario, the Empire might be forced to sue for Peace, and give up some land. 

BUT, a long, drawn out, war of attrition, favors the Empire, for the simple reason that the Empire will be able to replenish their losses easier then the Bretonians.  The Empire would have its own human pool to draw from, and they would have tilean mercenaries.  The Bretonians would refuse to deal with mercenaries, and since their knights are mostly nobility, their rate of replenishment is restricted by Bretonian birthrates.

[Big Time]

I'll give a short war to Bretonia, where Bretonia forms up one massive army, makes a surgical strike at altdorf and kills the Emperor.

Bretonnia could win a short war, but it would be a land grab (a costly one at that) of border territory. They would never capture a major city, let alone Altdorf itself.

[Gargoyle]

Bretonnia could win a short war, but it would be a land grab (a costly one at that) of border territory. They would never capture a major city, let alone Altdorf itself.

I'm inclined to agree that the major cities would be a serious obstacle to the Bretonnian army.

I cannot see bretonnians getting into the forests. We would be able to take them down very easily when they have little space to maneuver their big horses.

If you are reduced to hiding in a forest like a bandit , then you've already lost I'm afraid.

[Guvnor]

Note my point about the taliban in afghanistan- guerillas win wars.

In addition, who says we have to hide? I can't see a brettonian lance charging into the edge of a forest as it is.

Most of our territory is forest anyway, so in effect the empire is holding 70%+ of its land, hardly a lost war in my opinion.

Remember that this tactic could be used not just in small skirmishs but in large battles, where the emprie will quickly sandwich those lances, and we all know how badly brets take flank charges.

@Phydox: They would never get somewhere like altdorf in a 'surgical strike'. Secondly, have you noticed eathclaw? Thats why Karl Franz can't be asasinated. He would be in talabheim before the brettonians had stromed a breach (if he wanted to, and if the bretonnians actually managed to get a breach)

It would be difficult to make such a strike against any such position due to the limited approaches for such a force (Gisoreux Gap, Axe Bite Pass, Marches) and all these locations are defended aenoguh to slow the bretonnians and cause losses.

Oh, and lastly, if the brettonian generals were sensible (like me  ) then they would take hordes ofd men at arms and not many knights. Luckily, they aren't like me, so woill take lots of knights, which makes it impossible to advance beyond the reik.

[Gargoyle]

In addition, who says we have to hide? I can't see a brettonian lance charging into the edge of a forest as it is.

I'm not sure what your point is here... but I can tell you this, my Empire army will NEVER cower in a forest like a Brigand.
The Empire meets the enemy on the field of battle, with pride swelling their collective chest. Wood Elves hide in Forests.

Most of our territory is forest anyway, so in effect the empire is holding 70%+ of its land, hardly a lost war in my opinion.

At least 50% of the Empire is indeed forest.
At least 20% of the forest is too dangerous to venture into because of robbers, brigands, nefarious lawless scum and even worse... Chaos Infestation , generally Beastmen.
So NO, the forests are not an option for hiding in as a strategy for defeating Bretonnia.
Bretonnians are not foolish, if you hide in the forest they will simply put it to the torch, and burn you out, or burn you alive.
As you flee the Beastmen will pick off the stragglers.

Remember that this tactic could be used not just in small skirmishs but in large battles, where the emprie will quickly sandwich those lances, and we all know how badly brets take flank charges.

I can't see this happening either.
Easy to talk about, but difficult to implement.

[reiksmarshall]

Note my point about the taliban in afghanistan- guerillas win wars.

Erm, no. Guerrillas annoy. Guerrillas harass. Guerrillas weaken the foundations upon which a country can be built. They dont win wars. Using your own example, we have won the war in Afghanistan, we just havn't killed them all, or converted them to ourway of thinking. There is no chance that the taliban will win in Afghanistan as they simply dont have the resources or pool of manpower to draw upon.

And to those saying the south is nice and safe, I point to the entire point of the Storm of Chaos, that of the relief forces going to the north. And as far as everyone is concerned, due to the almost total destruction of the northern armies in their desperate rearguard action, they are still there in the majority, as they cannot leave the north undefended (emperor's wishes overall petty count's objections). Therefore, the south is relatively undefended, and if they can get past the border forts, they could have a field day, as most of the knights did return home unlike our southern garrisons.

And if the bretonnians could capture the population centres in the south, it would be victory bretonnia. War is won on production facilities, not land held, and even if the empire held 70% of the arable farmland, and the bretonnian's strikes took the weakly held towns in the south, they would have the MASSIVE producing facilites boasted about as the empire's salvation (which i doubt verily much).  And if the bretonnians could get their hands on handguns and cannons... Remember that the southern towns dont have the massive fortifications that the northen ones boasted, and even bretonnians can win sieges (they are not the incompetents that you seem to think they are. Occasionally they do step off their horses ) With southern garrisons runningat an all time low, a besieging army could break into many fragments and take several towns simultaneously, building siege engines and running through most settlements.

Im not saying they could take the empire straight off. They would reach teh reik and be halted by logistics. But they could take most of the south, including our critical town of nuln. However, our culture and values are such that would provoke rebellion, not only in the empire but in bretonnia proper, and so the knights must adapt their feudal values or suffer a revolt, and the land would never truly be fully in their hands for several hundred years, as taking land always breeds recedivists - look at russia pre-communist for examples of autocratic regimes taking other lands (baltics, etc) and russifying them to no avail - hundreds of years later and there was still a freedom movement. Imagine what would happen of the north was still allowed to feed that feeling with propaganda and supplies.

Either way, it would pointlessly drain the resources when they need them most, so it probably wouldnt happen. But the Dark Lord of Moussilon is gaining power and influence, and he hungers for revenge... <insert plot line featuring a nice, shiny new capmpaign featuring zombie knights, zombie pirates and everything zombie relayed - huzzah!>

[Hagen_von_Loewenstein]

Whatever leads you people to believe that "the south" sent most of its forces north and left its own territories undefended... hey, it's not like a gigantic army of the Undead has just returned to Silvania and it's also not like a massive Waaagh! poured into the southern empire just recently, so there's no need for presence of armed forces there for sure...

and especially @ reiksmarshall: You know who was in Afghanistan before "you" got there? You know who got their a$$es handed to them by mere Mudjahedin-guerrilas? (that's not to say I actually support the "imperial guerrila"-idea in any way)

[Mystic Force]

The empire isn't a modern society, it may not be feudal but its not that different.  The majority of the population will be rural, and mainly concentrated in agrarian activities.  Production isn't concentrated in large factories but consists of "cottage industries" spread out across the land.  Yes there are concentrations of production but that will represent a small fraction of total output.  These might go into some of the more specialist war production such as cannon and plate armour.  But the majority of weapons are going to be made by skilled craftsmen distributed around the land.  So material production centers are not as big a factor in premodern societies.  Also as political centers cities arent a big factor.  At this time in european history (from 1100 to 1600) courts where constantly on the move, and holding of an opponents capital didnt gaurantee victory.  After all its was only really a symbol.  Undertaking a siege of a city the size of Altodorf or Nuln would be a huge undertaking just imagine the size of the circumvention lines, and both cities stradle navigable rivers which would alow for easy resuply, and the brettonians dont really have anything good for stopping ships (unlike us who could set up a cannon battery up or down stream from the city)  Such a seige would take years.  I dont really see Knights wanting to wait around for such an activity.  And Brettonian infantry are fuedal levies that have to return to work the fields else everyone back home will starve.  A state at this point in our history was more of an idea of loyalty to a overlord, you are tied to them by loyalty and they by loyalty to their supperiors.  To some extent this has broken down by the period our empire exist in, with a kind of merchantile class evolving, ie they dont derive wealth from land.  But many of these people want to be part of this old rulling elite not replace it.

I just think Brettonia could kick are butt a few times and after that they will be taught the folly of their way by being unable to gain any local loyalty and gradually bled dry.

[Big Time]

Using your own example, we have won the war in Afghanistan, we just havn't killed them all, or converted them to ourway of thinking.

You know who was in Afghanistan before "you" got there?

@ Reiksmarshall, he meant the Taliban vs. the Soviets, not the Coalition (the "us" you are refering to, Hagen?). But another example of guerilla warfare working is the Viet Cong vs. American public opinion.

The Empire wouldn't go to guerilla war anyway, we would hold the cities. Do we have any numbers about how many people we lost in the SoC? I don't think it is as bad as many people believe. Each city would have maintained more than enough of its soldiers to withstand an attack, for a while anyway. I still contend the Brets couldn't take a major city, they are outmatched in artillery. Even depleted garrisons could take disasterous tolls on a besieging Bret force with the edge in weaponry.

[Guvnor]

Another difference is that brettonia has hardly any extra manpower to draw on., What they send over the mountains will be pretty much it. They can't easily raise troops.

You can't burn that much forest.

My point is that as soon as you start crossing the reik (in your very heavy armour, slowly, under heavy fire from a dry, determined enemy in a defended position...) knighs and lance formation will have very ;limited uses. I know carlo has a good peasant army, but most bret generals would not do what he does, and that would be their downfall.

Juat thiking, brettonia against Empire. Wait a sec, we are the empire generals, right? That's why we are going to win, because we have us.

The brets don't have us.

[Grudgie]

I dont really see Knights wanting to wait around for such an activity.

Ofcorse you dont. You dont see you being drafted to a place you dont even know whats going on.

But Knights would wait. Your saying thel get bored and throw rocks at the walls?

And yes Guvnor, you can burn that much forest.

[Guvnor]

The empire is rather a wet place too. And we've been tryiong to burn down the forests to get rid of beastmen for a VERY long time.

[Gargoyle]

And yes Guvnor, you can burn that much forest.

Correct.

I still can't understand why any Empire hero worth his salt would be cowering in a forest in the first place.
Sounds cowardly to me.

[Guvnor]

Empire doesn't have conventions about cowardice. I am prepared to hide in a forest if it means I win.

Don't forget you won't get across the reik.

[patsy02]

Secondly, have you noticed eathclaw? Thats why Karl Franz can't be asasinated. He would be in talabheim before the brettonians had stromed a breach

And isn't talabheim even harder to take than Altdorf? It is in the middle of a gigantic crater, protected by mountains at first, which there is only one way to get through, then vast city walls, and then they have a constant supply from the river taal...

[Mystic Force]

No one said Robin Hoods a coward and thats exactly what he did.  Coward and being smart are two different things.  Using the terrain to your advantage is just the sensible thing to do.  I have to fight an all cavalry army, I know i will fight them in trees!  That way they can't stay formed up, or charge too fast or manoever.  I can stick people up in trees to shot them and put down pit traps so that their horses will break their legs as they charge!  Or I could find a nice big featureless plain just perfect for cavalry where they can outflank and surrond me due to superior mobility.  Which do you think the smart Imperial general is going to pick?

And no I dont think Knights are going to sit around and throw rock at the walls, but neither do I think they are going to cut wood, build trebuchets or operate them.  Neither do i think they will want to man picket lines in the middle of the night, forage for food and escort pack animals around the place.  I dont think they will want dig trenches, build siege towers, addemble pallaises, level ground for seige engines with a shovel under fire, dig tunnels under the wall to fire them.   Seiges are boring and monotonous, filled whith many degrading tasks.  Things I dont see noble brettonians wanting to do, which leaves them bored, and bored troops are a liability, they would start raiding for plunder and as they seperate up, going further and in smaller groups they become more vunearable, until suddenly the armies strength is being drained away by a thousand cuts.

So yes to forests and laughing at brettonians trying to surond a city the size of Altodorf which is itself built on a series of islands.  As for Nuln, that too stradles a river making circumvention difficult and also will have a LOT of cannons, perfect to defend itself from attack