home

Author Topic: How would a war with Brettonia turn out?  (Read 38404 times)

Offline Carlo Chaimo

  • Members
  • Posts: 203
Re: How would a war with Brettonia turn out?
« Reply #75 on: July 01, 2006, 03:08:21 PM »
Well, I just got back two days ago from vacation, drinking and crisping myself on the beaches of Connecticut and Rhode Island, and as I sober up and my skin rapidly returns to its natural ghoulish white I have slowly read this thread and have noticed some key errors which are repeated over and over here:

1)Bretonnia could/couldn't cut off our supply lines:
Either way you slice it this is nonsense. Medieval warfare didn't deal in supply lines. There was a reason why Medievals thought in terms of campaign seasons and that is because they plundered and foraged and needed to know when they could at least potentially count on there being the necessary raw materials. True, during the Crusades supply lines were often involved, but this was an exception, and for two reason:
a)They had sea access
b)They were in a desert and foraging was not a certain way to get supplies.

Even here, the Crusaders did not always have access to Italian shipping, and here they usually made do.

2)Bretonnia could/couldn't hold land
Vernichtungsgedanke, blitzkrieg, total war, all of these are primarily modern concepts. Medievals were not concerned with holding land. They were concerned with defeating armies. Once they defeated whatever armies were in the region, they then moved to fortify or build castles and then hunkered in for the next attack.

This would usually be at least months, waiting for the next campaign season, and could often take years when we look at political considerations. In any case, the land grabs that many of you are referring to have nothing to do with Medieval warfare.

Land grabs have everything to do with modern warfare where mechanized units and capitalist/commodities cultures are involved, but they have virtually nothing to do with Medieval warfare. Land might be the primary objective for political/economic/psychological/religious reasons, but only on rare occassions did holding land matter for military reasons, and here it would inevitably be for strategic reasons, and usually this would be decided before the battle if possible.

We simply have more men than the Bretonnians because we are a pre-modern, capitalist, bourgouis society with a "Whig-myth" understanding of liberty, whereas as they are Medieval and feudalistic

Now, if someone could cite fluff that Bretonnia was definitely smaller in terms of population then I would give you that part of this argument; however, without a direct fluff reference we cannot know that Bretonnia is necessarily smaller. Even with significantly higher infant mortality and a lower lifespan, pre-industrial nations are quite capable of maintaining adequate birth-rates and dynamic population growth.

Even the "Whig" history that most of you seem to subscribe to does not indicate that the Bretonnian peasant would not fight with vigour for his Lord. Although I do not subscribe to "Tory" histories of deference and ancien regime and more than I do to "Whig" liberal narratives of liberty and progress, nevertheless, conservative/reactionary historians such as J.C.D. Clark, Lord Elton, Peter Nockles and Gertrude Himmelfarb have shown how maliable the older formulations of Monarchy/Church/Parliament could be.

Jingoism knows no bounds and even today's modern peasant will fight unquestioningly for his/her master merely in the name of patriotism or a flag. Imagine the faith of the Medieval then?

In summary, then, some of you have argued that the "table top" experience of Warhammer is not a good indicator of who would win a war if these two nations fought one another. Those of you who have argued so have set forth a number of arguments which relate both to the "real warfare" and to the imaginary "Warhammer world". I bring up my insights not to argue that one side would or could defeat the other, but to suggest that real-life examples are not germaine here, and that Game mechanics should be primary. Even fluff should only be applied to when it is clear cut, as "real-life" is often difficult to apply and certainly requires a much, much, more sophisticated analysis than even I have given here.
I've traveled all over this world, from Alabama to Louisiana, and one thing I've found is that people always want to do good.
--Maxwell Custer

Offline Grudgie

  • Members
  • Posts: 324
Re: How would a war with Brettonia turn out?
« Reply #76 on: July 01, 2006, 03:34:06 PM »
O contrair! Mr. Carlo, yes they can cut off supply lines. They could put us under siege, the food cant come from the outside farms, and the inside couldnt possibly feed evryone. So that is what I mean. Yea, I figured borders didnt count for much.


Offline Guvnor

  • Members
  • Posts: 1791
  • I'm just north of London
Re: How would a war with Brettonia turn out?
« Reply #77 on: July 01, 2006, 05:21:28 PM »
Well, to address some of Carlo's points.

Yes, supply lines might not be involved. This would (probably) mean that the brettonians would make large incursions, but quickly become isolated, as their spearheads would move and defeat armies, leaving behind deserted land, much like an orc invasion. But, they would eventually be worn down, and if we assume the brettonians act in the feudal manner Carlo is suggesting, they would not be likely to be extremely cautious, making ambush easy.

We are a capitalist community, so commodities matter to us.


If I may I would compare the type of warfare the empire practises as similar to the English civil war. This is when land and location started to become important, and people focused on moving location, not defeating armies.
here, Charles' mistake was to act like a feudal lord, and this cost him, as though his victories were good, defeating an army isn't enough.

We can't rely on game mechanics because they do not work. If we were to fight a war with brettonia using tabletops we would undoubtedly lose to the million lances of doom.

To use game mechanics I would believe it to be a bit more warmaster style, and this is where brettonia slips a bit.

If Carlo is right, he is in fact suggesting that bretonnia could be defeated by guerilla warfare and raids, as they are only concerned with defeating armies.
I have one sentence in response to the engineer and mechanical: Empire is post-feudal age, not post-nuclear age!

Offline Vivendi

  • Members
  • Posts: 312
  • Belgium, land of rain
Re: How would a war with Brettonia turn out?
« Reply #78 on: July 02, 2006, 09:48:40 AM »
I think that we are looking over something, because the culture of Brettonia is located in the Medieval time and the Empire is located in the time of Holy Roman Empire. And at these times there where the wars different. In the medieval time the army had to look after themself, so they took from the land(farms, villages, ...). But later they the army where sometimes so huge that they need somekind of supply, because the land could not afford it anymore. Because of this the supply lines where created, the made carvans to supply there army's. Look to Napoleon in Russia, he lost because his men froze to dead or dead because there wasn't enough food to supply his army.
We worden geboren om te leven en leven om te sterven.

Offline Big Time

  • Members
  • Posts: 629
  • Resident alcoholist
Re: How would a war with Brettonia turn out?
« Reply #79 on: July 03, 2006, 04:50:45 AM »
Quote
Seriously, if you guys collectively were to defend against bretonnia, you would get nailed to the walls, and repeatedly prodded by lances. You SEVERELY underestimate bretonnia's capabilties and assume a doddery old halberdier could hold our keeps for several years whilst they futiley assault our walls with lances.


Ugh.  I hope you are joking with this post, your arguments are as lice ridden as the Bretonnians you are defending.

Quote
Either way you slice it this is nonsense. Medieval warfare didn't deal in supply lines.


Foolishness, Chaimo. Supply lines include lines of communication and reinforcements. Please tell me how the Brets would maintain a protracted invasion on the Empire without either.

Quote
Medievals were not concerned with holding land. They were concerned with defeating armies. Once they defeated whatever armies were in the region, they then moved to fortify or build castles and then hunkered in for the next attack.

They are still holding land here, you have contradicted your own flimsy argument. The only excuse I can think of for this ill-expressed argument is you are caught up in thinking of holding land in modern military terms. If the Bretonnians can't hold and consolidate the land they are invading, what would be the point of the invasion?

Quote
Even the "Whig" history that most of you seem to subscribe to does not indicate that the Bretonnian peasant would not fight with vigour for his Lord. Although I do not subscribe to "Tory" histories of deference and ancien regime and more than I do to "Whig" liberal narratives of liberty and progress, nevertheless, conservative/reactionary historians such as J.C.D. Clark, Lord Elton, Peter Nockles and Gertrude Himmelfarb have shown how maliable the older formulations of Monarchy/Church/Parliament could be.


Hahaha, you sound like a grad student. Stay focused, though, you are getting sidetracked and thinking far too deeply about a fantasy table-top wargaming world.

Quote
In summary, then, some of you have argued that the "table top" experience of Warhammer is not a good indicator of who would win a war if these two nations fought one another. Those of you who have argued so have set forth a number of arguments which relate both to the "real warfare" and to the imaginary "Warhammer world". I bring up my insights not to argue that one side would or could defeat the other, but to suggest that real-life examples are not germaine here, and that Game mechanics should be primary. Even fluff should only be applied to when it is clear cut, as "real-life" is often difficult to apply and certainly requires a much, much, more sophisticated analysis than even I have given here.

I agree that real-life examples are not germaine to this argument, for the most part. I disagree, however, that "Game mechanics" should be primary and fluff should only be applied when it is clear cut.

This argument, by itsvery nature, is extremely hypothetical. But that's the beauty of a forum like this. This isn't a study of of history or politics, it's an argument about which fantasy army would win in a war. The "real life" examples are useful as a guide, but nothing more.

Anyway, Chaimo, I'm not trying to be an ass or insult anyone. This argument is fun for me and should only be regarded as fun. I really mean no offense.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2006, 04:41:16 PM by Big Time »
Work is the curse of the drinking classes.
-Oscar Wilde

Offline reiksmarshall

  • Members
  • Posts: 1143
Re: How would a war with Brettonia turn out?
« Reply #80 on: July 03, 2006, 10:58:57 AM »
We are all peasants (slaves even) to money. There are very few that escape it's insidius tentacles. And we all know that the best fighters fight for money, so whack in some dosh and a coloured cloth, and you have a mighty fighting force!

I still maintain that bretonnia would beat us if they invaded tomorrow, simply due to logistics. If it was just empire vs bretonnia, then empire would triumph time and again (i think it is significantly bigger anyuway, but that may be spurious at best). However, currently the empire has to place a large holding force in the north that it CANNOT move. If it does, chaos would sweep down and destroy everything, including the bretonnians. Therefore, only a fraction of the total force available can be used against the whole of the bretonnian war machine. Even with ambushes, etc, they would probably outnumber us sometimes, and are far superior in that their staple knights are encased in armour, and our staple is the humble halberdier, which judging by many topics in this forum is enough said.

And this is assuming no ther force gets on in the act, and they would be stupid not to. The empire's gretaest strength (or difference) to most other countries is that it allows free trade and is capitalist. However, it is a double edged sword as it makes things a lot easier for spies. Although goblin and skaven spies are easily rooted out, marienburg and border prince ones are less so. Orcs and goblins will try to batter some of the outlying provinces, skaven will at least make some effort at ingenius destruction (with inevitable spectacular failure!), and bandit communities will stretch local defence forces to the hilt, as happens in during all forms of unrest.

I stress that bretonnia could never take empire fully, as i doubt they could take altdorf, and we all know how hard it is to take middenheim. But they could take the richer southern lands (until bandits make it a pain to do so), and let other armies chip away at barrier states, which will become their priority to protect. And the Emperor must protect the north (which has no armies of its own left), which makes the southern electors angry and confused, as they see their own lands destroyed and none of the help they gave to the north. So they may even split to a north-south divide, overthrow the empire or completely disintegrate as each elector tries to defend his province.

But the entire argument is hypothetical, so discussing political nuances may be alittle premature, but if an evil zombie takes over the bretonnian throne...... zombie knights!
Supreme Commander of the Emperor's glorious armies, Grand Marshall of the Guardians of the Reik and Founder of the Anti-Helbalster Foundation!

Offline Phydox

  • Members
  • Posts: 1096
Re: How would a war with Brettonia turn out?
« Reply #81 on: July 03, 2006, 01:53:46 PM »
As I said before, There's little chance Bretonia would win a full scale war against The Empire.

1.  Technology.  The Empire is more advanced then Bretonia.  The evolution of war went from a Knight on a horse, to a guy walking around with a gun/black powder weapons for a reason.  Its better.  I'm no historian but the term "Calvery", in the military today, is a reference to a helicopter, not a horse.

2.  Economically. - The Empire is more capable of mass production of supplies.  Bretonia isn't capable of creating the massive amounts needed for an extended war.  For a real world comparison, look at the American Civil War, who won, and why. 

3.  Mentality- The Bretonians are restricted by the code of Chivalry.  The Empire's goal is to win.  So, assassination, poison, flight (to fight another day) and other underhanded things would all be fair (It is war afterwall).

I could see the Bretonians being successful if the Empire actually fought on their terms, but they wouldn't.  An approaching Bretonian army would see the Empire army retreat into a walled city, with all their food stuffs, and then point all its cannon at them.  Lets see those Bretonians knights charge up walls. :-D

Also, an extended war of attrition favors the Empire, because they're not restricting themselves from employing mercenaries.  So, losses would be replenished faster.  I don't see it as being unrealistic for an Empire General to hire chaos marauders to fight with them against Bretonia.

And every other reason aside, the main reason is:  Sigmar definitely can beat up the Lady of the Lake. :-D
Gadzooks!!!  Release the Pigeon Bombs!

Offline Clarkarias

  • Members
  • Posts: 3576
  • Halton Hills, Ontario
Re: How would a war with Brettonia turn out?
« Reply #82 on: July 03, 2006, 03:07:26 PM »
...It is war afterwall...

Is that what the Empire will build after the war to keep the Bretonnians in Bretonnia?

And every other reason aside, the main reason is:  Sigmar definitely can beat up the Lady of the Lake.

Is it ok for a man to beat up a woman if she is a diety?
Actually, forget Karl-Franz. I want rules for Thyrus Gorman on a dragon. - Rufus Sparkfire

Offline Tom.von.Tarnus

  • Members
  • Posts: 110
  • Everybody loves greatswords
Re: How would a war with Brettonia turn out?
« Reply #83 on: July 03, 2006, 03:19:24 PM »
The empire could also hire an entire dogs of war army, which the brettonians wouldnt, and i agree, sigmar would beat the lady of the lake 8-)
sweden

Offline Carlo Chaimo

  • Members
  • Posts: 203
Re: How would a war with Brettonia turn out?
« Reply #84 on: July 03, 2006, 03:37:16 PM »
Quote
Anyway, Chaimo, I'm not trying to be an ass or insult anyone. This argument is fun for me and should only be regarded as fun. I really mean no offense. I only take exception to one statement:

Quote
Jingoism knows no bounds and even today's modern peasant will fight unquestioningly for his/her master merely in the name of patriotism or a flag.

I would ask that you keep your own political beliefs out of this argument. I don't appreciate being called a peasant, either. Feel free to email or message me if you wish to discuss this further.

What political beliefs did I express? "Peasant," "jingoism" and "patriotism" are all neutral sociological terms. Can I not say "communist", "Jacobite" or "poll booth" without offending you either? Do you have any idea what country I am from, let alone my history of voting? My statement can/could and was intended to be spread across the idealogical spectrum, so if that is all that it takes to offend you then I will make sure that I stay off of your threads.

(Or is it the picture of Trudeau doing a pirouette that offends you? Or the quote from prince Arthur? If so you totally misunderstand these, as Trudeau's pirouette was merely meant to question court protocol about differences of treatment between royalty and heads of state, and prince Arthur's quote is merely about him losing his virginity, so there is no reason for you to assume secret ideological assumptions behind these either.)
I've traveled all over this world, from Alabama to Louisiana, and one thing I've found is that people always want to do good.
--Maxwell Custer

Offline Phydox

  • Members
  • Posts: 1096
Re: How would a war with Brettonia turn out?
« Reply #85 on: July 03, 2006, 06:41:24 PM »
...It is war afterwall...

Is that what the Empire will build after the war to keep the Bretonnians in Bretonnia?

Oh how witty.  You discovered an error the spell check didn't catch.  I'm honored to be the recipient of your 2960th witty post.


And every other reason aside, the main reason is:  Sigmar definitely can beat up the Lady of the Lake.

Is it ok for a man to beat up a woman if she is a diety?

Spoken like a true witch loving, Bretonian kissing, chaos tainted, cultist.  Someone around here needs a visit from the priests, warrior priests.  Fire up the grill boys.
Gadzooks!!!  Release the Pigeon Bombs!

Offline General Helstrom

  • The Old Ones
  • Members
  • Posts: 5319
  • Chicks dig moustaches
Re: How would a war with Brettonia turn out?
« Reply #86 on: July 03, 2006, 06:57:11 PM »
Calm down guys. We're grown men who play with toy soldiers, talking about which fantasy country could kick which other fantasy country's ass - on the internet. If we actually start insulting each other over it we're no better than the Star Wars VS Star Trek crowd :wink:

* runs like hell before the Wars-VS-Trek crowd gets him *
I don't know what Caesar thought when he got to the Ides of March
Don't know what Houdini bought when he went to the store
But I sure do miss the eighties

Offline Phydox

  • Members
  • Posts: 1096
Re: How would a war with Brettonia turn out?
« Reply #87 on: July 03, 2006, 07:20:16 PM »
Calm down guys. We're grown men who play with toy soldiers, talking about which fantasy country could kick which other fantasy country's ass - on the internet. If we actually start insulting each other over it we're no better than the Star Wars VS Star Trek crowd :wink:

* runs like hell before the Wars-VS-Trek crowd gets him *

You can run General Helstrom, but you can't hide!  Admit it!  Spock's vulcan mind meld would so own Darth Vader's Force Choke!  and he wouldn't even break one shellac coated hair.  Admit it!!  Come on!!!

*runs after General Helstrom shaking fist*
Gadzooks!!!  Release the Pigeon Bombs!

Offline Grudgie

  • Members
  • Posts: 324
Re: How would a war with Brettonia turn out?
« Reply #88 on: July 03, 2006, 08:12:49 PM »
Quote
their staple knights are encased in armour, and our staple is the humble halberdier, which judging by many topics in this forum is enough said.

Hey now. Dont poke at the Halberdier. He never did anything to you. Without them, what would the empire have?

Quote
2.  Economically. - The Empire is more capable of mass production of supplies.  Bretonia isn't capable of creating the massive amounts needed for an extended war.  For a real world comparison, look at the American Civil War, who won, and why.  [/qiote]

Need I tell you the south owned at the beginning because they had better cavalry? Huh! Anyway, the South almost won, by a hair. But dont get me started.


Now, the Bretts would win, tell me why not. The empire is weaker than the bretts after the breeze, and the bretts are stronger. To the guy that said lets see them horses run up walls. Well, they wouldnt. Theyd wait till we surrender or starve. Simply put.

Brunth
« Last Edit: July 03, 2006, 08:17:30 PM by Grudgie »

Offline Midaski

  • Sunny Sussex, England
  • Administrator
  • Members
  • Posts: 11893
Re: How would a war with Brettonia turn out?
« Reply #89 on: July 03, 2006, 09:04:51 PM »
Quote from: Clarkarias link=topic=12298.msg137590#msg137590
Is it ok for a man to beat up a woman if she is a diety?


It's a bit unfair if she is watching her weight as she could be understrength. :wink:

Why on earth would Bretonnia make any concerted effort against the Empire - we are the buffer for them from a lot of nasties.
They have managed to stay coddled in their feudal medieval set-up precisely because they haven't had to grow up to modern warfare, because the Empire cushions them from it all.

You might get the odd local Bret Lord near the border who gets upset about his honour and sallies across into the Empire because his feelings are hurt, but the Kingdom as a whole knows the score.

The population count would be an interesting factor though - any of our fluff majors got any statistics?
 :?

What is the ratio of peasants per knight?
I would find it difficult to believe that they could raise any more knights than we could, and then our infantry is much better trained.
 :wink:
Quote from: Gneisenau
Quote
Metal to Finecast - It is mostly a swap of medium. 

You mean they will be using Ouija boards instead of Tarot cards for their business plans from now on?

Offline Raulmichile

  • Members
  • Posts: 639
  • ¡¡¡Ajua!!!
Re: How would a war with Brettonia turn out?
« Reply #90 on: July 03, 2006, 11:03:53 PM »

Why on earth would Bretonnia make any concerted effort against the Empire - we are the buffer for them from a lot of nasties.
They have managed to stay coddled in their feudal medieval set-up precisely because they haven't had to grow up to modern warfare, because the Empire cushions them from it all.

You might get the odd local Bret Lord near the border who gets upset about his honour and sallies across into the Empire because his feelings are hurt, but the Kingdom as a whole knows the score.


Agreed.  Plain as that.
"No 1000 year war veteran demon boom-blasting god-eating lord of the neverdying alwayscheesing can resist a 120 point cannon ball to the gut."

Offline patsy02

  • Members
  • Posts: 5724
  • Moderator in charge of Gender Equality (Honorary)
Re: How would a war with Brettonia turn out?
« Reply #91 on: July 04, 2006, 01:59:30 AM »
Quote
and then our infantry is much better trained.
Trained at all, against something else than a log with a smilie face drawn on it.
I agree with the inhumane treatment of animals.

Offline reiksmarshall

  • Members
  • Posts: 1143
Re: How would a war with Brettonia turn out?
« Reply #92 on: July 04, 2006, 11:36:52 AM »
Hey! Those logs are all too easy to outwit in a battle situation. Its easy to moan (fun too :-D), but at least those poor men at arms are trying...

Ive been saying it from the start that bretonnia wouldnt wge war on the empire, but we're dealing with hypotheticals. Could bretonnia beat the empire? Could sigmar beat the lady ofthe lake? Is she an elf? Does that mean man is better than elf? Does that mean we could invade ulthuan or athelorn? Does that make us evil? See the questions you raise by doubting the replies? :-D
Supreme Commander of the Emperor's glorious armies, Grand Marshall of the Guardians of the Reik and Founder of the Anti-Helbalster Foundation!

Offline Guvnor

  • Members
  • Posts: 1791
  • I'm just north of London
Re: How would a war with Brettonia turn out?
« Reply #93 on: July 04, 2006, 03:32:32 PM »
Where on earth did my post go? I am very sure I posted on this yesterday or the day before.

Oh yes, I was saying that bretonnia will find it harder to replace losses as they are restriced by the feudal system in how to train knights, and they can only raise so many peasants, as the more peasants fighting means less working the land, which leaves less food for teveryone, including the fighters, etc.

The empire is not as harmed by losses and can easily raise extra troops by making more weapons and searching for more mercenaries.
I have one sentence in response to the engineer and mechanical: Empire is post-feudal age, not post-nuclear age!

Offline Racticas

  • Members
  • Posts: 1067
  • The Anti-moderator
Re: How would a war with Brettonia turn out?
« Reply #94 on: July 04, 2006, 04:33:38 PM »
Of course Sigmar could beat the lady of the lake.

In fact, if he did, he'd smash her so hard that it would go back in time and she would have been dead since before Sigmar punched his way out of his mother's womb.

And then, all past battles with Bretonnia would retroactively become Empire victories.
Quote from: Atchman
He isn't afraid at all to try new things, sometimes with terrible results.  :roll:

Offline Raulmichile

  • Members
  • Posts: 639
  • ¡¡¡Ajua!!!
Re: How would a war with Brettonia turn out?
« Reply #95 on: July 04, 2006, 04:40:02 PM »
Just like Chuck Norris after all   :lol:
"No 1000 year war veteran demon boom-blasting god-eating lord of the neverdying alwayscheesing can resist a 120 point cannon ball to the gut."

Offline Sinister

  • Members
  • Posts: 111
Re: How would a war with Brettonia turn out?
« Reply #96 on: July 04, 2006, 06:23:54 PM »
New campaign bets against the Empire, that sounds cool. It will be interesting turn in the fluff. The interesting part is who will be bad?
Than the chaos take all over the old world, the lizards die and we start to play 40k.

Offline Clarkarias

  • Members
  • Posts: 3576
  • Halton Hills, Ontario
Re: How would a war with Brettonia turn out?
« Reply #97 on: July 04, 2006, 07:35:19 PM »
Just like Chuck Norris after all   :lol:

Made me choke on my drink....

I wouldn't compare Chuck Norris to Sigmar...I'd say Chuck Norris is more like Khorne, sitting on a mound of skulls that stretch as far as the eyes can see.  That's all the people he has roundhouse kicked, in the last 10 minutes...
Actually, forget Karl-Franz. I want rules for Thyrus Gorman on a dragon. - Rufus Sparkfire

Offline Hagen_von_Loewenstein

  • Members
  • Posts: 2113
Re: How would a war with Brettonia turn out?
« Reply #98 on: July 04, 2006, 08:08:54 PM »
New campaign bets against the Empire, that sounds cool. It will be interesting turn in the fluff.
Wow, a campaign against the Empire, how cool and original is THAT?

Offline Sinister

  • Members
  • Posts: 111
Re: How would a war with Brettonia turn out?
« Reply #99 on: July 05, 2006, 06:48:13 AM »
Good guys fight each other, thats cool.