home

Author Topic: Sob *** Not Quite Treachery ***  (Read 4395 times)

Offline Veldemere

  • Posts: 1279
Re: Sob *** Not Quite Treachery ***
« Reply #25 on: June 21, 2007, 10:21:33 AM »
Rufas, so unlike you to preach tolerance, maybe it is time to build a new pyre!

What disturbs me is not that it was written but more the feeling that it needs to be written, there is a significant difference between the players and the game (at least I hope so) it is fine to wish death to the orcs, but absolutely wrong to hold feelings against those who play these armies. I am sure that many here have more than one army anyway and it strikes me a lot of people have a 'good' and an 'evil' army.


Sorry back on topic now-

Blackthorn thanks for your efforts but maybe we need to clarify what is being offered here, initially the approach was for a fluff alliance but your proposals point more to a limited non-agression pact, with clauses that only you are able to break (ie significance of tower / village) this may be what would make people suspicious.

For me I would prefer to start with a straight fluff alliance and then discuss the terms for any limited NAP or the 2 issues will become quickly confused.

I am sure you meant the NAP section of your proposal as a 'sweetener' to the fluff, as our armies should not be fighting, but I think it confuses.
Veldemere, Elector Count of Solland (Elect)
Quote from: wissenlander
  I'm fine with Veldemere and his retinue of disgruntled's

Offline Blackthorn

  • Posts: 31
Re: Sob *** Not Quite Treachery ***
« Reply #26 on: June 21, 2007, 11:11:36 AM »
The reason for attacking inns & towers is to widen our scope of attack. Each region has only 8 battle sites, three of these are held by the Empire. (town, inn or manor & tower). Although at this stage I know of no region where Dawi are attacking a tower. Attacking inns is fluffy for us it’s the beer for the troops; also all inns are located on the road so we gain a tactical advantage by holding one.

With respect to the list of who I would prefer to win. I have only included those races which from a GW point of view will do something similar to the Dawi objective. I.E. Destroy the crown – Remove Alrics folly.
I don’t know what the Brets/Wood Elves or Ogres would do with the crown if they obtain it, GW have not given any indication of what these races would do with the crown – hence I can not include them in the list. Of course this may change once the campaign starts and if this information comes too light.

FVC, we will have to put that debate on hold, that’s one for after the campaign.

All in all there is not that much which divides us, there is much that we can build on.

Mutual Supportive fluff: - On a Global scale.
I: At this stage I would ask that you join with us in the Grudge Week and attack the Orcs where possible. Even if you don’t have an Orc player to battle, include fluff about finding slaughtered Orc warbands with Dawi axes and quarrels stuck in the corpses.
 Example:
“As our army move through the Great forest we are encountering many butchered bands of Orcs, from the signs of the conflict we have determined that this is the work of the Dawi “
II: Include fluff about our Ranger regiments moving freely and easily through the forests. We want to get the forestry ability back for rangers. (Having a scout regiment moving at half speed in woods –sucks, especially when your movement is 3.) 
Example.:
“Our Huntsmen have been tracking Dawi ranger regiments, great difficulty have they had in keeping pace with the swift and free moving regiments as they easily traverse the terrain.”
III: Raise the profile of the Hunters of Sigmar.
Example.:
“Dawi rangers report back, they have been tracking a large number of Empire knights. A rag tag Order going by the name of the Hunters of Sigmar, are fanatical in their searching for the chaos tainted. When and where possible they give battle with the warped ones.”

Once again if you don’t like, agree or want to add something else, please comment.

This can be further developed for a region bases.

Blackthorn

Offline Veldemere

  • Posts: 1279
Re: Sob *** Not Quite Treachery ***
« Reply #27 on: June 21, 2007, 11:21:29 AM »
For me that seems absolutely fine, I have no orc opponents but will include the fluff.

I hope this can be agreed and swiftly so we can progress from here to see what further agreements can be made.
Veldemere, Elector Count of Solland (Elect)
Quote from: wissenlander
  I'm fine with Veldemere and his retinue of disgruntled's

Offline wissenlander

  • Posts: 7162
  • The original Graf of Brennenburg
Re: Sob *** Not Quite Treachery ***
« Reply #28 on: June 21, 2007, 12:05:07 PM »
It does sound good.  If you have any more issues that you would like us to highlight, feel free to propose them.  Don't you guys have something going about the Royal Gryocopter Squadron as well?
Me and Wissenlander had babies!

not together.

finding photographic evidense that Wiss smiles is going to be hard...

Offline FVC

  • Posts: 1037
Re: Sob *** Not Quite Treachery ***
« Reply #29 on: June 21, 2007, 12:26:08 PM »
I don’t know what the Brets/Wood Elves or Ogres would do with the crown if they obtain it, GW have not given any indication of what these races would do with the crown – hence I can not include them in the list. Of course this may change once the campaign starts and if this information comes too light.

We've been saying we'd give to the Fay Enchantress all along, you know. No, that's not in GW background, but the idea of dwarfs destroying it isn't in GW background either (indeed, one might argue GW's portrayal suggests that the dwarfs would resist destroying it, as it is a priceless runic artifact, and that they only intend to lock it up), so it does strike me as a slight double standard. In any case, do you really think GW would have Bretonnia do something evil with the Crown? This is Bretonnia we're talking about - more stereotypical heroes I cannot imagine!

Quote
FVC, we will have to put that debate on hold, that’s one for after the campaign.

Bah, grumble grumble... debates like that are half the fun of the campaign. Okay then. I will track you down once the campaign ends and challenge you to that debate. I'll put it in my sig here to remind me. You're not weaselling out of this!

Offline Ostermarker

  • Posts: 190
Re: Sob *** Not Quite Treachery ***
« Reply #30 on: June 21, 2007, 03:26:25 PM »
I don't see why you'd attack the inns though. A Dwarf would most likely go to an inn and just make a deal with the barkeep, or say that the building was built by his ancestors (or relatives certainly) and demand some sort of beer payment.

Right, Mutual supportive fluff:

I: I'll probably mention the dead Greenskins, but I doubt any of my soldiers know the difference between a dwarven bolt and a human one, and my General would use this to boost morale by saying: Look what the Empire's done to these orcs!

II: Ooh, you want better units, Mister Reliable-War-Machines? Ok, maybe a bit harsh, but I doubt this would work, considering WE LIVE HERE! Most of the hunters, militia and some of the State Troops will have been brought up in this region, and will know all the shortcuts, and would be faster. However, it could be said:
"As we approached the <insert evil lair sounding name here> we met a group of Dwarven Rangers, they had arrived at the same time as our Huntsmen, and they communicated much helpful intelligence."

III: It may be a good idea that, if you have Heavy Cav from DoW, that they are Hunters of Sigmar, who fight Chaos. In fact, mention them coming to help you if your facing "evil" races. Why didn't a certain unit appear thoughout the game, they were fighting the Hunters, etc.

Personally, I'd like some kind of attack on the Wasteland mentioned, but I've been working on this with the Elves and the Brets in our negotiations. :biggriin: Maybe even Marienburg?
So, Ostmarkers wear purple, but it's manly purple, not like that Bretonnian purple.

Offline Blackthorn

  • Posts: 31
Re: Sob *** Not Quite Treachery ***
« Reply #31 on: June 22, 2007, 10:42:48 PM »
Wissenlander can you post me plans for the following:

Reik Marches
Great Confluence
Howling Heights

It's for the carving up of these regions. Once I have the necessary information, we can see what regional common ground we have and build on that.

On a personal note, a thanks for the co-ordeal hospitality you have shown.

I will take what we have discussed here and put it before the Brewery so that they can say no and ruin all of my work.  :icon_eek:

This is the close of phase 1. We need to embark on phase 2, regional supportive fluff.  :icon_biggrin:


Blackthorn.

Offline Ostermarker

  • Posts: 190
Re: Sob *** Not Quite Treachery ***
« Reply #32 on: June 23, 2007, 09:26:51 AM »
Just been looking on the NC site. Under the Dwarfs section their objective is:

"Thorgrim seeks to recover the Nemesis Crown and lock it away deep beneath Karaz-a-Karak"

Right, I don't see destroy. Now, this annoys me, because it stinks of hypocrisy. Burman's Brewery wouldn't ally with us (and interfered in our other negotiations) becuase it was in the NC fluff. But you want to destroy (and won't allow ny other outcome) when this IS against the NC fluff. *sighs*

Sorry, that may have seemed rude and harsh, but I've just looked at it, I'm tired, and it's a spur of the moment thing.
So, Ostmarkers wear purple, but it's manly purple, not like that Bretonnian purple.

Offline FVC

  • Posts: 1037
Re: Sob *** Not Quite Treachery ***
« Reply #33 on: June 23, 2007, 01:05:58 PM »
Y'know, Ostermarker, that exact point came up in an argument with a Bret knight I had over on the RToB. He claimed that the Empire's 'council of the wise' plan was too much a departure from the word of GW, and consequently that they should not be trusted. Yet it seems to me -

GW's stated Empire goal - Karl Franz wants to find the Crown, study it, and if it is proven safe use it for the good of the Empire.
W-E's goal - hold a Council of the Wise to learn as much about the Crown as possible and decide what to do with it.

GW's stated dwarf goal - Thorgrim wants to find the Crown and lock it up in a deep dungeon below Karaz-a-Karak.
Bugman's Brewery's goal - hold a Council of the Wise and Powerful to decide how to destroy the Crown.

W-E's goal seems pretty compatible with GW's statement, and is really the logical extension of what Karl Franz wanted to do. It's in character and reasonably logical. (Incidentally, this is what we were aiming for with Bretonnia - to broadly harmonise with GW while adding and changing details.) BB's goal looks to directly contradict GW's statement. When it comes to ignoring GW background, it looks to me as if the dwarfs are far greater offenders.

But then again, let's not turn this into a dwarf-bashing thread. There's been quite enough of that already. Regardless of how great/rotten the dwarfs are, cooperation can only benefit the Empire. Focus on that.

Offline Ostermarker

  • Posts: 190
Re: Sob *** Not Quite Treachery ***
« Reply #34 on: June 23, 2007, 02:56:34 PM »
I know that the Empire (IC) has to get as much co-operation with the other races, but (and this is quite a big but) I think that the dwarf online community has laid down double standards in this matter.

IC, my general, if he knew of this, would be bursting at the hypocrisy shown and be yelling and bawling at any (non-Imperial) dwarfs. These match my sentiments on hypocrisy, it's bad, hypocrites usually fit into the: "Do as I say, not as I do" section, like the Bugman's and Henry the Eighth.

I know that this shouldn't be a dwarf-bashing thread (I think we've got one somewhere else :biggriin:), but I think that they deserve it due to the way they've treated W-E ambassadors, and not just the ones to Bugman's, most times we've gone to someone to ask for alliances, then they (particularly Daft) have popped up and said:
"Oh, don't ally with them, they won't destroy it, they're weak, we're strong, ally with us"

The extreme anti-Empire sentiments which have come out from Bugman's warrant such insults, in my opinion. And if they can't take, they should give:

Do onto others as you would have them do onto you.
Judge not, lest ye be judged.
etc.
So, Ostmarkers wear purple, but it's manly purple, not like that Bretonnian purple.

Offline Tillmann Spyri

  • Posts: 47
Re: Sob *** Not Quite Treachery ***
« Reply #35 on: June 23, 2007, 04:49:00 PM »
Hmm. I've been thinking, and this raises an interesting question.

The dwarfs don't want the crown destroyed. Why? because , for all it's evil, it is a perfect etching of the greatest rune, of the greatest runesmith who ever lived. How could a race that thrives on their history destroy such an important part of it? Indeed, Thorgrim may well end up looking at it from time to time...

So, who is more likely to be corrupted? The Empire, who don't know what it is? Or the Dwarfs, who do, but won't destroy it? On fluff terms, there's a strong case for the dwarfs being the bad guys in this equasion.

Offline Jerok

  • Posts: 188
  • Captain Campaign
Re: Sob *** Not Quite Treachery ***
« Reply #36 on: June 23, 2007, 08:10:34 PM »
Right, i'm not seeing an real point to this thread, so i'll lock it. Message me if you want it open for a GOOD reason.....
_______________________________________
That's what she said