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Author Topic: Suggestion for week 5  (Read 2212 times)

Offline clausewitz

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Suggestion for week 5
« on: July 25, 2007, 10:13:34 PM »
Hi Folks,

I've been reading the week 4 dispatches and I had an idea that I though I would offer to my fellow generals of Helstrum's 4th.

In the Empire dispatches the conflict in the court is clear.  Luthor Huss seems to embody the ideas that we of w-e had in regards to the crown.  Yet there is clearly difficulty in getting this across to the Emperor, the Reiksmarchal and others in power.

In the Skaven dispatches make things very clear..
Quote
The Council know that should the Emperor wear the Crown, then disaster will befall his lands, and the Skaven Under-empire will rise.

It seems we should do something to support Luthor Huss and persaude Karl Franz to listen to him.

My suggestion it that, for this week, we all include in our battle reports something about "..leading the troops in a prayer for Luthor Huss..and let Sigmar grant his wisdom to our Emperor..".

Perhaps Michael, or another of our great writers, can compose something appropriate?
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Offline Michael W

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Re: Suggestion for week SIX
« Reply #1 on: July 25, 2007, 10:40:46 PM »
*Chuckle*

I'm actually leaning toward the Skaven reasoning.  The Warhammer World has become a little too happy-go-lucky for my tastes.  As a player (not as a General), I'd like to see the Empire break into a bit more fragmented society.  I was going to post this earlier, but I'll reply now...some thoughts for discussion on Week 6.

Premise 1:  Dwarves are stubborn, unrelenting, and downright tenacious.  They won't leave without what they came for.
Premise 2:  The Dwarves are and consistently will be ranked very high for the rest of the campaign.
Premise 3:  Karl Franz wants the Crown, approaching the point of obsession (or at least he has up to this point).
Premise 4:  Come Week 6, "the end of campaign season," the Dwarves will begin a withdraw to their Holds.

Conclusion (that Karl-Franz jumps to): "Thorgrim won't leave without the Crown...but he's leaving.  But he hasn't told us that he has the Crown...THORGRIM MUST BE TAKING THE CROWN TO HIDE IT."

This would be a coordinated Week 6 all-out Fluff offensive regarding a breaking of our treaties.  The Asur, Brettonians, Dwarves, and Skaven would all be involved (in advance)...the more races we could work in, the better. 

The overall premise:  Karl Franz orders all Imperial officers to concentrate their attacks upon the Dwarves (with no warning to them) and to take back the Crown, wherever it is (which the Dwarves probably don't have, but we disregard their denial as "lies").  The Asur (of course) aid the Dwarves, their allies; the Skaven jump at the chance to kill Dwarvenkind.  The Brettonians, with alliances to both, are stuck in a moral quagmire. 

I know that this violates our pre-campaign treaties; we would discuss this with those parties beforehand (ie, soon).  This also, I know, goes against many of our loyal Imperial officers' morals.  Many good men, thus, disregard orders; some choose to continue their operations from before, others openly fight on the side of the dwarves.  Many other loyal officers, placing Empire above alien races, conduct their operations despite their own consciences.  The Empire threatens to tear apart...

Personally, I think it's a great plot hook for GW's future.  The Empire's been lovey-dovey and happy and glorious for long enough; let's see a twist for the worst.  Give the VC a real chance at becoming a threat again; let's see a major city sacked, and the Empire disregarding the threat of Chaos (after all, their beaten and broken...right?) and at each others' throats instead.  More importantly, GW's been very compliant with the fluff that has been submitted up to this point.  If at least five races - maybe more - are suddenly contributing to this, they may accept it.  We may have a chance to have a real say in where the Warhammer World goes from here.  Years from now, when our kids are playing Warhammer, we can talk back about the "golden age" of the Empire, when everybody got along, and how we were part of the campaign that had the first big effect on the world. 

Storm of Chaos proved that the powers of evil can't break the Alliance of Light.  It takes infighting to do that.  I'm all for it.  Mind you, that's as a Warhammer enthusiast in general, not an Empire player.  As an Empire player, I'd love to see the Empire conquer all the known world...but that ain't happening.  But there's precedent for Civil War.  It's not beyond the scope of the game or the storyline.  It's something we can make real.  I think that's the most appealing part of it.

Anyway, that's all up for discussion.  But now it's out in the open.  If we're going to do something with it, let's do it soon.  Otherwise, this will just be another forgettable summer campaign conducted over some cheesy made-up artifact that will just conveniently disappear immediately after the summer, and nothing will really happen.  I want this summer to be different...
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Offline Wyzer1

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Re: Suggestion for week SIX
« Reply #2 on: July 25, 2007, 10:53:40 PM »
I'm actually leaning toward the Skaven reasoning.  The Warhammer World has become a little too happy-go-lucky for my tastes.  As a player (not as a General), I'd like to see the Empire break into a bit more fragmented society.  I was going to post this earlier, but I'll reply now...some thoughts for discussion on Week 6.
:-o
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Offline Michael W

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Re: Suggestion for week 5
« Reply #3 on: July 25, 2007, 11:05:45 PM »
Good heavens, Wyzer...I thought the Empire was a little more cosmopolitan and accepting than - *sees Brother Otto approaching* - right.  Nevermind. 

Eh.  The whole thing has been on my mind for a while.  It's just a suggestion, as a player of Warhammer, not of any army in particular. (Confessing to the Undead army also on my shelf at the moment would be a bad idea, right?)  I'm fine if we don't do it...I just wanted some other opinions.
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Offline FVC

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Re: Suggestion for week 5
« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2007, 01:50:59 AM »
What do you mean, Wyzer1? For me, I think Michael W's suggestion has merit. Storm of Chaos was quite happy, an example of bright and traditional high fantasy. The Nemesis Crown campaign strikes me as a deliberate attempt to darken the tone of the background, and while I do think it would be nice to give the Empire a chance to catch its breath, the prospect of increased factionalisation is also an intriguing one. It hearkens back to Mordheim - 'are you a Reiklander or a Middenlander?' becomes a much more significant question. The Age of the Three Emperors was an extremely interesting time, and I would certainly welcome the return of that sort of moral ambiguity, with different provinces and claimants all having supporters among the player base but none of them clear good guys or bad guys.

The problem with that, though, is that it does require Empire players to willingly self-destruct, to an extent. Most players, I think, would much rather see their faction win than see their faction lose for the sake of a good storyline. Regrettable, but there you are. If it could be done, though, I would support Michael W's outline in a shot.

On behalf of Bretonnia, though, I don't think you could get Bretonnia to support you in an offensive against the dwarfs. There's a slight chance... there is a reasonable amount of anti-dwarf feeling going around the RToB after they targeted us without provocation, but I'm not sure it's enough to help you attack them.

Offline Michael W

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Re: Suggestion for week 5
« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2007, 04:24:19 AM »
I think it would be great to have the Brettonians mentioning being stuck in a moral quandry..."We've been beating up all the bad guys...but now the good guys are beating on each other...and we're friends with everybody...WHO DO WE BEAT UP ON NOW!?!"
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Offline Nightshadow

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Re: Suggestion for week 5
« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2007, 09:25:41 AM »
Well, I actually like the idea of a shism in the empire. But with the emperor going together with Huss in meditation, I'd guess he magically makes a come around and sees that the crown should be destroyed.

I think it would be more logical if some rash generals wouldn't wait for Karl Franz to return from meditation, and decide to act now. They would assemble all stuntie haters and start an offensive against the dwarfs, taking back the roads for example.

Imagine the look on KF's face when he returns  :happy:
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Offline Veldemere

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Re: Suggestion for week 5
« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2007, 09:28:50 AM »
Hark, was that the subtle sound of KFs runefang against Luthors ribs, 'attacked by wild animals eh'!
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Offline wissenlander

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Re: Suggestion for week 5
« Reply #8 on: July 26, 2007, 12:16:54 PM »
Crap.  I should've looked here first, I could've answered your PM here Michael. :laugh:  I hope you don't mind, but I"m going to use parts of that PM here for lack of effort/time (yeah right, I know, it's really laziness).


The attack on the Dwarfs could still be done in week 6, however there are some problems with it.  The latest dispatch puts our position completely in the air.  Karl Franz going off for prayer and guidance from Sigmar means he's reconsidering, and let's be honest, he'll reach his senses and we'll end up aiding the Dwarfs as opposed to attacking them.  We could be an isolated rogue bunch, but being at Warvault and seeing a lot of the crap that Andy Hoare goes through (just a tiny fraction of it I'm sure) I don't know if he would write in an attack.

The reports for the most part have been extremely bland and there has been no attack on one good army by another.  I don't think that he will do it in the last week (could be wrong, but I'm just going by what I know/think).  This campaign has pushed their GW staff to the limit and right now I do think they just want to end this with as little problems as possible. 

I personally don't think that an attack on the Dwarfs would do anything for the long term.  At the end of this campaign everything will be as it was before it began.  If handled poorly we could piss off a lot of people (which I would do my best to avoid and think we could avoid with open discussion).

It is true that if we bump up a few nothches the Dwarfs won't hesitate to attack us.  This I know, but I don't think that it will get a mention in fluff either...just that tensions continue to mount.

That being said, I'm not saying no to your proposal.  I'm just completely up in the air about it honestly.  We can make plans for it, but if the final dispatch comes out and says that Karl Franz had a vision that said don't mess with the crown and to help Dwarfs, it will be hard for us to get up enough momentum in 1 week to get a mention of an attack on the Dwarfs.  If things go badly with Karl Franz's prayer session then it might be easier.

Basically what I'm saying is this:  I don't want us to work a lot on something that will be in complete contradiction with what Andy Hoare wants to happen.  Yes he's letting us decide to a certain extent but in the end GW wants to keep the status quo.  This is the biggest reason for me not pushing for us to hand the crown over to the Dwarfs in the beginning.  It wasn't supported in our initial fluff and we would've been head butting GW central the entire campaign.
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Offline wissenlander

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Re: Suggestion for week 5
« Reply #9 on: July 26, 2007, 12:22:56 PM »
Either way, this could be our big goal for the week...one way or the other.  In the US we've got the attack on Port Maw/Morr's Gate, but we need an overall storyline to follow. 

In the entire existence of WFB the Empire has been united with Karl Franz at the helm.  There is precedence in fluff for a schism, but in general gaming terms the Empire is united.  The army book just came out and a fracturing of one of the most popular armies wouldn't sit well with GW I don't think.

I like the idea though.  FVC, myself and a few others had a lengthy discussion about how cool it would be to have a darker more realistic Empire developing and found many reasons (before the crown came into play) of a schism to occur.

I really think that this storyline in particular is something that should be saved for an 'intersite campaign.'  Warvault could be the middle ground for us and we could set this whole thing up the way we want to.  GW won't rock the boat too much on this.  If we want a campaign of epic/tragic proportions we'll have to do it ourselves I'm afraid.  That being said we could have diplomacy without our hands being tied (as much) and it could be a lot of fun, and a lot of work.

I'm going to think this whole thing over a little more, but the dispatch really has me thinking that we will be supporting the Dwarfs soon.
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Offline Patch

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Re: Suggestion for week 5
« Reply #10 on: July 26, 2007, 12:25:10 PM »
Personally, I think it's a forgone conclusion now. Having Luthor Huss rant at him for four days, the Emperor is going to let the Dwarfs have the Crown, so long as they...

[Quick cough for Yorkshireman's accent]
"Git Orrrffff orrr lannnnnnddddd!"
[Cough]

Let's clear this non-human (and French) scum off our lands, in other words.
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Offline FVC

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Re: Suggestion for week 5
« Reply #11 on: July 26, 2007, 01:10:47 PM »
I think it would be great to have the Brettonians mentioning being stuck in a moral quandry..."We've been beating up all the bad guys...but now the good guys are beating on each other...and we're friends with everybody...WHO DO WE BEAT UP ON NOW!?!"

That's what we were going through, but the dwarfs solved it for us with their wonderful 'anyone who's doing well but isn't our ally is our enemy' logic... :laugh:

Offline clausewitz

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Re: Suggestion for week 5 (Warning contains seditious material)
« Reply #12 on: July 26, 2007, 01:11:53 PM »
As Wissenlander has mentioned, I think we need to be wary of attempting to take our fluff too far from GW.  While GW have been relatively accomodating in including fluff from forums etc, they have also made many subtle (and not so subtle) hints that those who veer too far from their ideas will not succed in their plans.

Examples:

DE, they have recieved several warnings about not following Malekith's orders and plans.  So now instead of achieving anything they have Shadowblade sent to kill one of their own commanders.

O&G, this week there was mention of some leaders still setting fires, but doing so against Grimgor's orders and a threat that if caught they are going to make Grimgor angry (you won't like me when I'm angry..)

HE, there was last weeks hint that Giladis was playing a dangerous game in his diplomacy (hint, HE are not going to conquer bits of the Empire).

The Tor Thana Heart Stone plan.. three weeks of fluff plugging.. no mention in dispatches.

I don't think we really want to end up with similar results.

I would also remind people of our stated objectives.  We never wanted the bloody crown in the first place.  So do we really care if the dwarfs get rid of it?

Our objective was to ensure that no evil forces managed to get it (with the good races winning at the moment that looks like it should be successful) and to protect the Empire.  To protect the Empire requires us to fight the forces of evil and do our best to retain good relations with our (traditional) allies.

I appreciate the ideas that Michael and others have put forth concerning making the Empire darker, more fractioned etc.  It is something that would be very interesting (and would certainly spice up the forum with inter-province rivalry) but I do not believe the NC campaign is a possible launch pad for such an idea.*

(*What I think we really want is a more complex, realistic, grown up version of the Warhammer world.  But I fear that this is not likely to happen, as GWs core market is not grown up etc etc)

I would rather that we predict what GW is going to do, act in support of this and claim the credit afterwards.  :-D

So we reckon that Luthor will win out and persaude the Emperor to reject the crown (and start behaving normally again).  So I suggest we make that part of our fluff and then claim the credit for it.  "Yes, it was our troops' prayers that influenced the Emperor and nothing to do with GW having already decided".
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Offline Giladis

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Re: Suggestion for week 5
« Reply #13 on: July 26, 2007, 02:41:44 PM »
Quote
HE, there was last weeks hint that Giladis was playing a dangerous game in his diplomacy (hint, HE are not going to conquer bits of the Empire).

I actualy saw that as an encouragement  :icon_mrgreen:
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Offline Michael W

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Re: Suggestion for week 5
« Reply #14 on: July 26, 2007, 04:13:45 PM »
My personal expectation is that Franz will indeed have a change of heart and we'll suddenly be all about just making sure the Crown is disposed of.  As has been pointed out, GW wants to keep the status quo.  But I'm still hoping for a bit of chaos and trouble, otherwise this campaign is going down as another "Storm of Chaos - good guys smash all comers"
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Offline wissenlander

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Re: Suggestion for week 5
« Reply #15 on: July 26, 2007, 04:22:19 PM »
I think the best way to get the chaos is to do our own campaign...

We could split into differing factions based off of what we thought were the reasons for a split (religious, political, etc.) and make the factions from there.  Then each faction of the Empire could have it's own allies pulled from other forums or each forum could pull it's own agenda.

This campaign is so limited in scope it would be fruitless to try it I'm afraid.
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Offline scrivener

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Re: Suggestion for week 5
« Reply #16 on: August 02, 2007, 02:53:25 AM »
The campaign is indeed quite limited in scope as wissenlander says, but it's not impossible to make nudges in certain directions. The emperor's change of heart is more the work of you guys than a GW pre-planned story arc. I agree with Michael and the others when they say that warhammer has become too happy-go-lucky, where the good guys are all sweetness and light and the bad guys are incompetent. The Skaven came up with their plot for that reason, to turn our objective away from the too-cliched "me want warpstone!" premise we always get dumped with. There might still be room to darken the story even in this final stretch.