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Author Topic: Latest on HE changes  (Read 16853 times)

Offline CaptScott

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Re: Latest on HE changes
« Reply #50 on: September 13, 2007, 02:55:36 AM »
I hate to break with tradition but the new HE list looks pretty reasonable to me.  Sure they got alot of improvements but they needed alot of improvements as HE have generally been considered to be the weakest army for quite a while.

And consider the following:

- they are still primarily a lightly armored and low toughness army
- looks like there will be alot of competition for rare and special slots, so we won't be facing all the nasties at once even with the extra choices
- everything looks expensive, so there won't be alot of them
- considering they are so fast they would usually be striking first anyway
- 9 point ASF spears seem overpowered, but only if we charge them.  I they charge us they only get the usual 5 attacks (and would be stiking first anyway).  If they don't, we shoot them
- with 3 dragons, at least two of them will probably be pretty weak (possibly only fear causing)
- sure there may be room for exploitation (like skaven/WE/Empire/ Bret/Chaos lists), but most gamers won't take advantage of it, especially at tournaments
- HE might actually be competitive now, and thats good for WFB!

And lastly if worst comes to worst, Empire can one day reclaim the title as having the weakest army book like we used to (and thus the underdog status that initially drew me to Empire!)

By the way

Quote from: Marcus_Octavius
I'm pretty happy with the results, HEASF rules shouldn't make too much of a stink once players get used to it... I think it'll just be a tough learning curve players will have to face, but isn't that the point of these forums... to help each other learn tactics for facing those tough situations?

here, here!  :eusa_clap:
2010 - The year of Empire.
2011 - The year of Empire!

Offline Dendo Star

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Re: Latest on HE changes
« Reply #51 on: September 13, 2007, 03:35:54 AM »
I disagree with Dragons only as Fear causing models.

Surely Dragons universally cause Terror!
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Offline cisse

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Re: Latest on HE changes
« Reply #52 on: September 13, 2007, 03:41:31 AM »
be striking first anyway
- 9 point ASF spears seem overpowered, but only if we charge them.  I they charge us they only get the usual 5 attacks (and would be stiking first anyway).  If they don't, we shoot them
No, they get 11 attacks (assuming ranks of 5 wide and a champion). Unless their special rule has changed, they get to attack with an extra rank, which means the second rank gets to fight on the turn they charge. Not that bad against swordsmen, but spearmen or (sigh... they're still useless, why couldn't they come up with a nice special rule for them?) halberdiers will suffer.

I'm still not entirely convinced that ASF rule is the best solution they could come up with, but as you say, it's not too bad. It's only the swordmasters and dragon princes with two attacks that worry me... And ASF is just the icing on the cake for these units, especially swordmasters, to make them quite powerful.

Overall, I'm excited to see the new HE's. To play against them, for one, and I do hope it'll be a balanced book. Not only the units themselves, but also magic items and such. If it's a good book, I'll perhaps start HE's - I've played them a little before, but never got around to buy the miniatures myself. Rest assured though, Empire will always remain my first army.

Oh, and it's "hear, hear" and not "here, here". :wink:
cisse

No matter how fast you run, your ass will always be in front of me...

Offline CaptScott

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Re: Latest on HE changes
« Reply #53 on: September 13, 2007, 04:15:04 AM »
be striking first anyway
- 9 point ASF spears seem overpowered, but only if we charge them.  I they charge us they only get the usual 5 attacks (and would be stiking first anyway).  If they don't, we shoot them
No, they get 11 attacks (assuming ranks of 5 wide and a champion). Unless their special rule has changed, they get to attack with an extra rank, which means the second rank gets to fight on the turn they charge.

Can spear elves fight in two ranks on the charge now?  I thought their special rule was to fight in three ranks when charged?

Quote from: cisse
Oh, and it's "hear, hear" and not "here, here". :wink:
  :blush:
2010 - The year of Empire.
2011 - The year of Empire!

Offline Dendo Star

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Re: Latest on HE changes
« Reply #54 on: September 13, 2007, 05:21:17 AM »
Any unit that fights in multiple ranks loses one rank on the turn they charge.

Our Spears fight in 1 rank when they charge, 2 normally.

High Elf spears fight in 2 ranks when they charge the enemy, 3 ranks normally.

Dogs Of War Pikemen fight in 3 ranks when they charge, 4 normally.
I'm in college!

Offline CaptScott

  • Posts: 1198
Re: Latest on HE changes
« Reply #55 on: September 13, 2007, 06:06:42 AM »
Any unit that fights in multiple ranks loses one rank on the turn they charge.

Our Spears fight in 1 rank when they charge, 2 normally.

High Elf spears fight in 2 ranks when they charge the enemy, 3 ranks normally.

Dogs Of War Pikemen fight in 3 ranks when they charge, 4 normally.

Well smack my arse and call me Cindy!  I always assumed that only one rank could fight, its just one of those things thats never come up against my regular opponents.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2007, 01:54:29 AM by CaptScott »
2010 - The year of Empire.
2011 - The year of Empire!

Offline patsy02

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Re: Latest on HE changes
« Reply #56 on: September 13, 2007, 07:49:16 AM »
I think some of this is just pre-book anxiety(except maybe the strike first crap  :icon_evil:), but
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-Below 2000 pts, 1 core is required, and maximum 5 special and 2 rare choices are allowed. For 2000 army size, 2 core units are required, while maximum 6 special and 4 rare choices are allowed.
Sounds so inhenrently f*cked up I can't possibly imagine even GW's infamously inept "play-testers" would let this pass.
I agree with the inhumane treatment of animals.

Offline Johan Willhelm

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Re: Latest on HE changes
« Reply #57 on: September 13, 2007, 08:40:29 AM »
Well smack my arse and call me Cindy!  I always assumed that only one rank could fight, its just one of things thats never come up against my regular opponents.

my comment isn't in realtion to the above quote - I just thought it deserved to be in every post

Aprreciate this isn't with the general run of the thread but personally I'm sad to see the honours go, I was kind of liking armies having alternatives to magic items as options for their characters. And of course the charming combos that can ensue

Never played against Tomb Kings (relevant honest) - mainly VC, HE and Dwarfs in my group - but I know there magics a bit odd BUT will the vortex thing cancel their magic phase?
Rufas the Eccentric:
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Offline Ratarsed

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Re: Latest on HE changes
« Reply #58 on: September 13, 2007, 08:54:56 AM »

Sounds so inhenrently f*cked up I can't possibly imagine even GW's infamously inept "play-testers" would let this pass.

How so? It would appear that High Elves are only going to get 2 core options, Spears and archers, everything else will be competing for the specials and rare slots. I dont see what people are worried about by this.

Ratarsed

Offline Warlord

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Re: Latest on HE changes
« Reply #59 on: September 13, 2007, 09:00:24 AM »
but I'm surprised noone has mentioned the two attacks for Swordsmasters yet.
I mentioned my concern for this in the other 'whining' thread.

I believe that all other changes are fine and justified, but this unit makes me worry.

For us, I think we can handle them. I do agree that Skaven will probably have the hardest time, and Dwarves will proably have just as easy of a time.

The Commander is the HE's combat hero. He can ride an eagle but not a Dragon (it seems).

I think that the 3 different sized dragons is foolish. Most likely the options are:
Hero level Fire-Mage rides small dragon
Lord level Mage rides middle dragon
Lord level Prince rides big dragon

To be honest, I think that a unit of 0-1 Rare Drakes would not have been out of place, and that the Fire-Mage could ride a drake. Whats more, then there would only need to be the big dragon (because a wizard lord riding a dragon is pure Hero-Hammer IMO)

What happened to the Reavers? Do HE not have Light cav anymore - is that what Silver Helms have become?

I think the Core/Special/Rare slots are relatively balanced. What I don't think is balanced is what someone already mentioned... 4 DoW choices. In this way HE players can get around some of their Restrictions, such as Duelists as missile screens, extra Heavy cav, etc.

I foresee HE's playing very similar to MSU DE's actually... maybe just a little punchier.

Anyway, thats just a few of my thoughts. I am actually excited to play them / see the new book.
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Offline patsy02

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Re: Latest on HE changes
« Reply #60 on: September 13, 2007, 09:10:46 AM »
Quote
How so? It would appear that High Elves are only going to get 2 core options, Spears and archers, everything else will be competing for the specials and rare slots. I dont see what people are worried about by this.
Because it's like begging players to make cheese-lists.
Imagine the empire list that way, the ability to fit 4 steam tanks and 6 outrider units in a 2000 point list, with an unhealthy two core hand gunner units.
I agree with the inhumane treatment of animals.

Offline Midaski

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Re: Latest on HE changes
« Reply #61 on: September 13, 2007, 09:54:12 AM »
The only plain silly thing that I see being added is the second Dragon slot;

What second slot -  :icon_question:

Quote
- Commander cannot mount any dragon

He needs 5 hero slots for two dragons. :icon_exclaim:

SO 3000pts before it happens.

« Last Edit: September 13, 2007, 09:56:18 AM by Midaski »
Quote from: Gneisenau
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Metal to Finecast - It is mostly a swap of medium. 

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Offline Davido

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Re: Latest on HE changes
« Reply #62 on: September 13, 2007, 11:41:41 AM »
The only benefit I can see of this new book is that high elves will actually start taking infantry. It's not like they'll be we'll just have to be careful with our cav as the dragon princes will rip them up.

That said my pistoliers are going to have fun with the princes, God I love fast cav.

I think the trick will be to take second turn against high elves. let them advance into weapon range and them blast them with cannons/handguns. Hopefully the nastier thing will be dead by the time they charge you on turn 3. If not redirect with archers and shoot some more.

Not a fun way to play but very possible with a balanced list.
Yay my rocket battery finally killed something.What do you mean those are my halberdiers.

Offline mlepkows

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Re: Latest on HE changes
« Reply #63 on: September 13, 2007, 12:15:41 PM »
Quote
What happened to the Reavers? Do HE not have Light cav anymore - is that what Silver Helms have become?
Reavers are still here, with bows as standard and options to swap/add a spear, IIRC. They are special, as all HE nowadays are  :icon_wink:.
Quote
Imagine the empire list that way, the ability to fit 4 steam tanks and 6 outrider units in a 2000 point list, with an unhealthy two core hand gunner units.
The "trouble" is that HE have nothing like STank in their rare choices, nothing that really compares with Outriders in special slots and expensive S3 shooting as core. Your analogy is seriously flawed. Such Empire list would be the ultimate gunline, while elves can make only a mediocre one.
Quote
He needs 5 hero slots for two dragons.

SO 3000pts before it happens.
I think that you are reading too much from the (unverified) phrase "commander cannot ride a dragon", Midaski. I'm fairly sure that it simply means that the normal fighty hero doesn't ride a dragon. You can bulid a two-dargons list by puting your Lord on a dragon and adding a Dragonmage.
Quote
I think the trick will be to take second turn against high elves. let them advance into weapon range and them blast them with cannons/handguns. Hopefully the nastier thing will be dead by the time they charge you on turn 3. If not redirect with archers and shoot some more.
I don't think that the tactics will change much. I'm certainly not giving away my precious first turn opportunities to shoot down RBTs, chariots and some freaking dragons... By swapping handgunners for crossbowmen (entirely reasonable, given elvish armour saves) you don't need to go second unless you really, really must shoot with helblaster since turn 1.

Maciek


Offline cisse

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Re: Latest on HE changes
« Reply #64 on: September 13, 2007, 01:26:38 PM »
It appears that the name "commander" is going to change into "noble", there was a data sheet I saw on Asur.org that had the inf on the stats and special rules concerning each unit. I'll see if I can dig it up.
Quote
Imagine the empire list that way, the ability to fit 4 steam tanks and 6 outrider units in a 2000 point list, with an unhealthy two core hand gunner units.
The "trouble" is that HE have nothing like STank in their rare choices, nothing that really compares with Outriders in special slots and expensive S3 shooting as core. Your analogy is seriously flawed. Such Empire list would be the ultimate gunline, while elves can make only a mediocre one.
Still, he has a point. The system with core/special/rare is intended to keep the more powerful (and expensive, and fluff-wise less numerous) troop types appear less seldom than the core choices.With the new HE's, it'll be the other way round... This special rule is just another easy fix that says "we can't come up with a decent division into core, rare, special and we don't want to do the 0-1 thing anymore, so let's do something entirely wacky".

The special choices I can live with, since most of the HE elite infantry resides there, as well as the chariots and cavalry. Still stupid, but okay. But giving them 4 rare choices? Hello, care to consider the possible abuse with this? DoW units can be pretty nasty and hard to deal with in large numbers (giants, DoW cannons, etc). This opens up a lot of options to abuse the list, and that's just sad.

Quote
To be honest, I think that a unit of 0-1 Rare Drakes would not have been out of place, and that the Fire-Mage could ride a drake. Whats more, then there would only need to be the big dragon (because a wizard lord riding a dragon is pure Hero-Hammer IMO)
I'm with you on the wizard riding a dragon; characters that can both fight and cast spells are very powerful and should be reserved for big games only. Save vampires perhaps, since it's built-in. But drakes? No thanks, no units of flying half-monsters or flying cavalry anymore, the last try-out (pegasus knights) was bad enough. :wink:

Quote
How so? It would appear that High Elves are only going to get 2 core options, Spears and archers, everything else will be competing for the specials and rare slots. I dont see what people are worried about by this.
And Lothern Sea Guard. Three core choices, but still not a lot. That's why I said I could live with the extra special slots.

Quote
Well smack my arse and call me Cindy! ...
*smack*
Hello there, Cindy! :-D
cisse

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Offline embir

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Re: Latest on HE changes
« Reply #65 on: September 13, 2007, 03:13:57 PM »
I see 3 broken things in new HE:
- ASF(remember my words, it will be the most hated rule)
- lack of any cavalry in core
- army composition rules

What is good:
- core infantry is cheaper
- elite infantry is worth taking and doesn't take away rare slots (but with ASF is way too good)
- seer council is gone
- there are finally some strong units which also keep the feeling of HE army overall (dragons, lion chariots)

All in all this book isn't perfect. Fix many HE flaws but also add new, just like Empire army book.
5 stars out of 10.
man these ratings go up and down like a bretonian Lady's Chastity belt

Offline mlepkows

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Re: Latest on HE changes
« Reply #66 on: September 13, 2007, 03:14:26 PM »
Quote
Still, he has a point. The system with core/special/rare is intended to keep the more powerful (and expensive, and fluff-wise less numerous) troop types appear less seldom than the core choices.With the new HE's, it'll be the other way round... This special rule is just another easy fix that says "we can't come up with a decent division into core, rare, special and we don't want to do the 0-1 thing anymore, so let's do something entirely wacky".

The special choices I can live with, since most of the HE elite infantry resides there, as well as the chariots and cavalry. Still stupid, but okay. But giving them 4 rare choices? Hello, care to consider the possible abuse with this? DoW units can be pretty nasty and hard to deal with in large numbers (giants, DoW cannons, etc). This opens up a lot of options to abuse the list, and that's just sad.
4 rare choices was a dumb decision, I agree. Still, I can guess that they assumed (pretty correctly, IMHO) that 95% of the games will be played with armies straight from the book and thus the situation won't be different from the one we have now.
On the other hand, 6 specials are a blessing. If that was made the usual way, GW design would have to put something else as a core. What would you put into core section to make the army balanced? What would you leave as special (assuming normal 4 slots are aviable) to retain the "elite" feel of the new HE? I don't think there are good answers for those questions.

Maciek

Offline cisse

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Re: Latest on HE changes
« Reply #67 on: September 13, 2007, 03:43:58 PM »
Yes, you're probably right. Making silverhelms core again would only lead to the same cav+magic armies as before, making chariots core is just dumb (look at BoC and the Chaos chariots... stupid things should be special), and the other choices are clearly elite choices and thus don't belong in the core section.

But I said I could live with the extra specials. The 4 rare choices is just asking for abuse in my opinion. Probably not in friendly games, but in tournaments and such... oh boy. Can you imagine fighting against two dragons with mages on top, two repeater bolt throwers and two DoW cannons?
cisse

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Offline PhillyT

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Re: Latest on HE changes
« Reply #68 on: September 13, 2007, 05:25:22 PM »
I find it remarkable that few people have skipped over the fact that the HE have no Fast cavalry option (that we know of).  Lacking this key peice of strategic weapondry I think they suffer considerably for the fairly good melee bump they have received.

I only have one person in my group that plays HE (his other army is Ogre Kingdoms.... poor boy) so I am not really all that worried.  That being said I play an inordinate number of games against DE so if they get ASF then I will need to examine my tactics (if they don't he will probably off himself in a jealous rage).

Phil
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Offline Victor

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Re: Latest on HE changes
« Reply #69 on: September 13, 2007, 05:49:48 PM »
This new high elf army doesn`t look right to me.

Let me get this straight: I charge an Elf Swordmaster unit with a unit of knights, and there is a good chance that all my knights are dead before they even get to attack the elfs? 2 attacks + WS 6 + Str 5 + first strike?

Offline mlepkows

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Re: Latest on HE changes
« Reply #70 on: September 13, 2007, 06:24:58 PM »
Quote
I find it remarkable that few people have skipped over the fact that the HE have no Fast cavalry option (that we know of).  Lacking this key peice of strategic weapondry I think they suffer considerably for the fairly good melee bump they have received.
I'd refer you to my post, not so far above. Reavers are still in the book.
Quote
Let me get this straight: I charge an Elf Swordmaster unit with a unit of knights, and there is a good chance that all my knights are dead before they even get to attack the elfs? 2 attacks + WS 6 + Str 5 + first strike?
Let's say you fight with 6 knights against 6 swordmasters (front ranks only). 12 attacks, 8 hit, 6,67 wound, 2,22 get past saves. Your 4 remaining knights have 2 lance hits, 1,67 wounds. Horses have 2 hits, 1 wound, 0,67 gets past saves. 2,34 wounds done by knights. It's all up to outnumbering and magic/mundane standards. Your knights are still more mobile, resilient and core. 6 knights cost less than 12 swordmasters, too. Of course, knights lose in following rounds, but that's how things should be.

Maciek

Offline cisse

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Re: Latest on HE changes
« Reply #71 on: September 13, 2007, 08:03:15 PM »
I find it remarkable that few people have skipped over the fact that the HE have no Fast cavalry option (that we know of).  Lacking this key peice of strategic weapondry I think they suffer considerably for the fairly good melee bump they have received.
Erm... Ellyrian Reavers?  :wink:
cisse

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Offline Michael W

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Re: Latest on HE changes
« Reply #72 on: September 13, 2007, 08:32:31 PM »
I've been working on putting together a Goblin or DoW (undecided as of yet) fast cav army focused on bows - the general intention being to shoot the enemy to death, run when charged, and generally avoid all but the choiciest melees at all costs.  Sounds like it's time to finish it up.  And back it up with Bronzino.
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Offline PhillyT

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Re: Latest on HE changes
« Reply #73 on: September 13, 2007, 09:03:32 PM »
Quote
I'd refer you to my post, not so far above. Reavers are still in the book.

Ahhh... yeah... sorry about that Maciek.  I should have known really, I mean its not as if GW would cut an entire unit out of an army when it has existed for so long...

Quote
Erm... Ellyrian Reavers?

 :icon_redface:  I am just going to go lay down in the corner and not get in the way anymore....

Phil
« Last Edit: September 13, 2007, 09:06:32 PM by PhillyT »
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Offline Finlay

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Re: Latest on HE changes
« Reply #74 on: September 16, 2007, 05:46:33 PM »
the army composition is lame and unfluffy.
there army is meant to be mostly the citixen levy, now they can take 2 units of 10 archers for all their levy requirments?
lame.

sword masters.. 6 wide, will be near invincible. 13 str 5 attacks, there will be nothing left to kill them.

maybe it is time to sell the 25 swordmasters i have on ebay...

ASF i dont think will be too overpowered for most units, but ti think it takes a lot of skill out of the game, which is lame also
I don't care about the rules.

Pass the machete.