Topic: Sex and the Maw Pit (and beyond)

[Rufas the Eccentric]

I posted this on Ogre Stronghold and it's had a good reception.   The topic goes beyond Ogres to all WFB races.

Anyone who knows anything of history knows that great social changes are impossible without feminine upheaval. Social progress can be measured exactly by the social position of the fair sex, the ugly ones included.

A quote from Karl Narx of Altdorf, a nineteenth century Imperial historian and philosopher.  For this and other statements Karl was convicted of treason and heresy a ordered burnt at the stake.  Such was the danger of his writings that the four great chaos powers submitted Amicus Briefs arguing for the most painful of executions.  Still his teachings continued to have adherents, particularly throughout Kislev until fading into irrelevance at the end of the 20th century.

The quote is provided to to open discussion on the issues of females in the Warhammer world.  This is partly inspired by the figures of Vichor and DontheDime (Great OGRE female conversions), but I would like to see the discussion include Ogres and go beyond to other races.  In a world of nonstop war, each race's approach to the role of women in society and to child rearing, will have a profound impact on their very survival.

With respect to Ogres, I think it is relatively easy to assume that they would be an integral part of the tribe fighting power.  In a society where one's status is influenced by how much one can eat and how loudly one can belch, the logical assumption would be that the female Ogre can keep up with all but the most disgusting of their male companions.  Likewise, the relative small size of the tribes and the sheer bulk of a female Ogre compared with their likely foes, argues for the fact that they are need to fight. 

Given the approval of the figures mentioned above, I do not think that there is controversy concern Ogres.
Surprisingly there was..

But what of other races?  It is hard to imagine Malekith letting Dark Elf women off the hook with respect to military duty just so they can shop for Prada drink Latte's at  Starbucks.  Witch Elves aside, Elf females may be exempt for corsair duty in order to raise the next generation, But it would seem certain that all would be impressed into service should one of the cities be threatened.

With High Elf females, Prada and Latte's are certainly more likely (or watching Oprah and eating bon bons).  An yet with the "dying race" concept, how can they justify exempting 50% of the population from military training?  For all branches of Elves, it appears that child birth is a rare event and child rearing a tiny portion of the Elves life.   

Humans have a far shorter life span and child rearing takes a much greater effort.  Women in the ranks of the Imperial military would be the extreme exception.  Still, if I were a minor noble responsible for guarding a village on the edge of the Drawled, the thought of providing weapons and rudimentary training to  the woman of the village has a logical appeal.  Who else will fight more fiercely than a mother to protect her young?

However, the humans have a far more pressing problem.  The T3 WS3 light armored humans drop like flies in battle.  After an event like the Storm of Chaos, their must be hundreds of thousands of widows and orphans across the Empire.  Not only do they need to be taken care of, but a young widow is no longer producing the next generation of cannon fodder.  Although the Empire is modeled after a northern European society, does polygamy exist, either as an official policy, or unofficially with a wink from the powers that be?

There are additional questions concerning other races, but I just wanted to open the conversation.

[Dendo Star]

   Wow.

I need to think this bit over.

[EskimoBob]

Interesting concept.  I have seen some people post pics of female characters and such, but for the most part they are the exception.  Usually they are heroes, champions etc, not the common fodder.  I know in my army I recently added Ulrika Magdova Straghov as a boyar/cote.

Oh yea, hello everyone... been lurking for a while, decided to come on and actually post.

[offroadfury88]

  Wow.

I need to think this bit over.

Yeah me too, lets answer it after I take a shower (its my thinking time )

Oh and by the way, some of the Dark Elf torsos are female and it says in the book that the females join the army just as often as the males.

[Pierro911]

wow great stuff

I agree with the Ogre fems being similar to the males in thier tribal societies.

As for the High Elf fems - I bet they only learn civilized High Elf fem things which to answer your question about 50% of the population not fighting helps explain the dieing race thing! Besides Elves have the same T3S3 problem Hummies have.

Speaking of Hummies I would bet that it would be very very common for widows to remarry. Espcially if the Empire follows European history. European widows had no rights to own property, enter into contracts etc, if they didnt remarry they could loose everything to a male relative - even a very distant male relative. So pressures to stay married and social accpetance of it was very different from what we have today.

The dark Elf fems being active in combay certainly fits my image of them, I origionaly played D&D and all those sexy fem Drow pics left an impression on my young mind LOL

great topic to discuss - I cant wait to hear everyone elses ideas.

as for Lizard men _ have no opinion....(since they are born in spawning pools - I think?)

P

[sandman]

Welcome to the forums EskimoBob.  

Both dark elves and High elves have female models.  As for my orcs and goblins, I don't know, I respect their privacy.  Females in the armed forces of the human nations are few and far between.  I would guess that your reasoning is sound on that one.  They are needed to make babies.

As for lizzies, I would say the skinks probably do it the normal way, and how do you tell anyway.  The Saurus may be another matter, spawned off of some giant momma lizzard lurking in a temple somewhere.  Or mabey they are the dung of the old ones, dropped in a "spawning pool".

[Big Time]

It has also been said you can judge a society by how it treats its women.

That being said, this is an issue that has many real-world parallels, if you wish. Keep in mind the sci-fi/fantasy genre is the same that gives you characters like those of the Tomb Raider and Resident Evil. So what do we make of this?

In the Western world we accept a higher level of equality in regards to women in our society. This is a recent development, on most counts. We have come far in the last century.

At the beginning of the last century, women in the military were relegated to medical positions, for the most part. By WWII we had women pilots as well as other posts in the military being filled by women. Now, even though women technically are not supposed to fill combat roles in the U.S. military, we have women fighting the war every day, even in quasi-combat positions. In fact I recently read a press release where a woman was awarded a Silver Star (a pretty high-level medal for valor in the U.S. military) for a combat mission she took part in. In Soviet society women were filling true combat roles in WWII, though arguably out of necessity. After the war you see a drop off in the inclusion of women in the Soviet military. Both of these examples go to show that necessity will win out for a reasonable society.

I'm sorry, and I do not want to come off sounding like a chauvinist, but men and women are physically, mentally and emotionally designed for different roles. Men are in general stronger than women, pound for pound, and capable of taking more physical damage. Are there women built for war? Of course, just as there are men more fit to tend house and rear children. But men cannot carry children, and if you have ever lived with a pregnant woman; after a while their mobility, and subsequently their ability to defend themselves, is diminished.

However, modern is a modern term. For tens of thousands of years in human prehistory, women did the majority of the "work," as far as we can tell. Men just did the hunting and fighting, which required very little time, only a few hours a week. But to say men "just" did the hunting and fighting is unfair. Hunting was very physically demanding and quite dangerous, not to mention fighting other people. Thankfully in the real world our professions are not limited to war and child rearing. I see no indication men are any more fit for business than women. The benefit of the modern world.

But the Empire is not the modern world. I do not see women filling significant combat roles in the Empire, even in times of need. The society is too archaic for that at this point.

An yet with the "dying race" concept, how can they justify exempting 50% of the population from military training?  For all branches of Elves, it appears that child birth is a rare event and child rearing a tiny portion of the Elves life.

They can justify exempting 50% of their population from military training because there is thousands of years of precedence to the contrary. And how long does it take for an Elf to reach maturity? What is considered maturity in the elven realms? And, if their race is so dying, perhaps there is a fertility issue that would preclude women from combat. Who knows, Elf fluff doesn't say either way. That being the case, how do we know it takes only a tiny portion of Elf life?

Still, if I were a minor noble responsible for guarding a village on the edge of the Drawled, the thought of providing weapons and rudimentary training to  the woman of the village has a logical appeal.  Who else will fight more fiercely than a mother to protect her young?

A fair question, but ask any minor noble in our own history the same question and see what their answer is.

[offroadfury88]

all Lizardmen are asexual, they are spawned in pools. It says so in the Army book.

In the Empire women don't fight, all the men do.  Read any warhammer book about the old world and you will see that only men do the grunt fighting, there may be a female fighter but she is most likely the only one and is the main character.

[Sig]

http://uk.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.uk?do=Individual&code=99060213013&orignav=13

That should end the argument on female ogres.

[Big Time]

That should end the argument on female ogres.

On the contrary, my friend, that only serves to bring up so many more questions...

[Warlord]

I think the question of reproduction should be asked / applied to all species in the Warhammer World. Most we already know the answer, but perhaps I bring up some that you hadn't thought of...

Humans - Physically we know the differences between our own species
Greenskins - Spores. nuf said (search the CT for older discussions on this subject)
Lizardmen - Spawning pools and therefore similarity in gender
Ogres - well presented by Rufas
Skaven - not yet discussed, are there female rats amongst the clanrats? The stormvermin?
Beastmen - are predominantly mutations from humans - mutations could mean that either a/ cannot reproduce, or b/ product of reproduction would be equally mutated. Potentially ungors are the females?
Vampires - still possess strength of the undead and reproduction is down by siring mortals
Elves - potentially they are a dying race because reproduction takes so long. It could take decades / centuries for babies to be born - and if women go to war like they currently are, the race would be bound to be dying along with the un-born because of the long gestation.
Dwarves - Females don't have beards, however would most likely be just as stout as the males Are they busy making the stonebread for the males? Maybe all Ironbreakers are women with 'beards attached to the helmets?
Trolls - maybe they spawn like lizardmen? Maybe there is no physical difference between gender.
Giants - a more appropriately named dying species, the invasion of the Ogres killed off most of their people, and the rest inbreed, creating genetic deformities
Dragons - another dying species, spending all their time sleeping doesn't allow much time for mating
Minotaurs - I wonder if the humans knew what they cattle got up to at night...
Tree Spirits - Are these perhaps created every time a species cuts down a tree? Would explain all those Dryad armies out there...
Dragon Ogres - Can't remember the fluff for these guys, but just imagine...
Ogre: So, I, uh, saw you wit yor shiny teef.
Dragon: Raaargh!
Ogre: Wat duz dat mean?
Dragon: Rarrgh!
Ogre: Pleaz don't blow in me' ear.
Dragon: RAAARRGH!!
Ogre: What are you doin!?! AARGH!!!

[Sig]

On the contrary, my friend, that only serves to bring up so many more questions...

I'm not sure I want the answers to those questions...

[offroadfury88]

Skaven - not yet discussed, are there female rats amongst the clanrats? The stormvermin?
They have there own female rats that just give birth, there fat bloted and hairless. Read Skaven Slayer and Grudge (the book about the dwarves)

Beastmen - are predominantly mutations from humans - mutations could mean that either a/ cannot reproduce, or b/ product of reproduction would be equally mutated. Potentially ungors are the females?
I think they are there own breed, they females I belive

[Crimsonsphinx]

Beastmen are both male and female, if anyone reads any slaanesh fluff it should be very clear.  Of course you have to read between the lines as GW is rarely explicit.

I suspect most females of most races, elves perhaps the greatest exception, do not go to war.  Skaven have giant female breeders, its in all the skaven books. 

Do orcs breed or are they spores like orks?

Wood elfs have plenty of female warriors, more so than everyone else!

[FVC]

Skaven - not yet discussed, are there female rats amongst the clanrats? The stormvermin?

They exist, but have no rights. Skaven call them 'breeders' and treat them as nothing more than baby factories. To the stage that all breeders are locked up in their own section of the city and do nothing but raise young. The skaven are very sexist in this regard. However, far fewer female skaven are born than males. Only, oh, about 10% of the skaven population is female. They give birth to large litters, though.

To the High Elves, there was an interesting discussion about this at Asur.org a a while ago. You can find my thoughts from about the third page on. To summarise, it is my opinion that the High Elves, when it comes down to it, have a very strong sense of gender roles, and it is quite likely that they, as a patriarchal society, believe that women are inferior to men.

I would say the same applies to Bretonnia and the Empire. They are patriarchies. At their level of technological development, it would be damn weird if they weren't. In both of them, and in all the other human nations, women are considered inferior to men. Obviously the degree to which this is true changes from nation to nation. Bretonnia is quite conservative, while Tilea is on the progressive side of things.

Speaking of Bretonnia, actually, KotG describes this at some depth, which I enjoyed because most Warhammer materials refuse to even mention these issues. In Bretonnia, women are considered weaker than men. The code of chivalry dictates that the strong protect the weak. The way this works out is that Bretonnian men, specifically knights, are required to be extremely courteous and accommodating to any woman they may meet. They are expected to bow and scrape and open doors for them and pull out chairs and always give them the best of everything, for which the women are supposed to be grateful. 'Great!', women might think, and indeed women of other nations usually feel quite flattered and pampered the first time they come to Bretonnia. It will be soon be noticed, though, that this is done under the understanding that women are going to meekly accept this treatment, sit down, and shut up. If a women has an idea that she wants to put forward? 'Please, Lady Annette, the men are talking.' Very patronising, and the woman will immediately realise that, for all the deference she may enjoy, she has no actual power. Many Bretonnian women think that this is right and proper and balk at the notion that the two genders should be treated equally! Others don't like it, and have figured out that the only way for women to get out there and actually achieve anything is to pretend to be a man. This is surprisingly common. There are female knights, female lawyers, female minstrels, and so on, and nobody bats an eyelash.

It's a cultural thing. People get very good at seeing only what they want to see. A foreigner might say 'what? But look at her! This knight is obviously a woman!', to which a Bretonnian might say 'bah, nonsense! Look, this person is clearly a knight. I have seen this person slay enemies on the battlefield with my own two eyes, and have noticed that he is very valiant and bold. No woman could possibly do that. Therefore, this person is clearly a man.'. Despite this, many people, especially peasants, do in fact notice. There's a town in Gisoreux, I think, or maybe Artois, that used to have a problem with a Chaos cult. Cult members were marked on hidden places on their body to show their allegiance to Chaos. To solve this problem, the villagers simply had everyone in the town strip naked and parade through the village square, which made identifying the cultists quite easy, and it became a tradition that if any person from outside the village wanted to stay in the village (maybe overnight, on a trip?), they would have to strip naked and be examined, to prove that they aren't cultists. When the person is a woman masquerading as man, the examiners have gotten very good at saying 'right, not a cultist, off you go, and no, I did not notice anything strange about that man's body'.

It is obviously not as bad in the Empire. It is nonetheless, I would suggest, a stratified society where women are viewed as inferior to men.

[Midaski]

There's a town in Gisoreux, I think, or maybe Artois, that used to have a problem with a Chaos cult. Cult members were marked on hidden places on their body to show their allegiance to Chaos. To solve this problem, the villagers simply had everyone in the town strip naked and parade through the village square, which made identifying the cultists quite easy, and it became a tradition that if any person from outside the village wanted to stay in the village (maybe overnight, on a trip?), they would have to strip naked and be examined, to prove that they aren't cultists.

Sounds like a valid test that should certainly be employed at this event ..................

"Mid-Atlantic Empire Bash"

[FVC]

Ah, for completeness, here's the quote about that specific ritual -

These customs even extent to the more civilised parts of the Forest of Arden, but there, new arrivals are expected to begin their visit with a bath, in which they are supervised constantly by armed villagers. The bath is, of course, a courtesy, and the guards are for the guests' protection, and the fact that it is impossible to hide most mutations while naked is pure coincidence. Attractive female visitors may find many, many men are eager to protect them. Women pretending to be men find that people in this region are generally good at overlooking such things.

...come on, you know you want to join us...

[mlepkows]

Speaking of Hummies I would bet that it would be very very common for widows to remarry. Espcially if the Empire follows European history. European widows had no rights to own property, enter into contracts etc, if they didnt remarry they could loose everything to a male relative - even a very distant male relative. So pressures to stay married and social accpetance of it was very different from what we have today.

Not exactly right, at least not in regard to urban communities. I've recently read a book about medieval cities and it stated that ~1/5 of all records in municipal chronicles regarding various conflicts resloved by court (or it's equivalent - some kind of council) mentioned women as business"men" (ie. owners of a shop or something). Sure, women had less rights and often just remarried if young enough but they weren't excluded from inheritance or legal activities. Things were probably different in the countryside, though. OTOH, children were usually expected to move out and make a career on their own.

Maciek

[Rosencrantz]

With the human races it's basically a comparison to some real-world societies. I suppose GW hasn't entered this subject because of three reasons a) They're not very good at writing this sort of thing seriously b) The game began as a way of playing battles, and therefore the fluff reflects mainly that c) They didn't want to contemplate female Ogres

Greenskins - Spores. We assume so anyway

Lizardmen - Discussed and solved

Ogres - Rufas poses a good hypotheis

Skaven - FVC says it all. Also see the Loathsome Ratmen and all thier Vile Kin

Beastmen - Think about it, they're mutated humans or possibly animals. The status  quo and reproduction would be similar to either species, and most likely as loathsome as on;y Chaos can be

Vampires - Assuming they'd want to ... think about it. Why would a Vampire want to have kids when he could grant the Blood Kiss to someone more deserving? You don't need a new generation when you're immortal

Elves - Could be subject to a lot of discussion, so I'll mention what happens with the Wood Elves. Wood Elven women are afforded the same rights as men - if anything they're valued as better leaders as they are supposedly more rational. The only sexism, if you like, in Wood Elf society is among the Wild Riders I'd imagine, but then Orion can choose his drinking buddies as he pleases

Dwarves - Who knows? No doubt someone will suggest something Tolkien-esque

Trolls - More a case of who cares. Troll's a Troll

Giants - We wouldn't really know ... they don't have a society to call thier own anymore so we can hardly say what thier position would be. Presumably they get together somehow and disturb people for miles around when they do, for there are still Giants around the place

Dragons - They're lizards. They lay eggs. What more do we need to know?

Tree Spirits - We really, really don't know. They do reproduce somehow (Pollinate maybe, it would seem most fitting), and to ask a Dryad about it would probably result in her taking offence over it

I think thats enough now

Rosencrantz 

[wissenlander]

Sounds like a valid test that should certainly be employed at this event .................."Mid-Atlantic Empire Bash"

I don't think I'd be showing up if that were the case.  Don't ruin what's supposed to be a merry occasion Midaski, please.

[Crimsonsphinx]

Theres no mention of half this kind of thing because the game is being dumbed down to be more attractive to kids.  Even my Slaanesh background book mostly side steps it.

Personally I don't agree with the censoring that is happening.  The new daemonettes are a prime example of this happening and its both annoying and upsetting.  Most miniature companies happily produce nice female models, but no longer for GW unless you collect woodelves.

The older Konrad books and Genevieve quite happily dabble in these areas with chaos and vampires respectively.

[Rufas the Eccentric]

Do Orcs breed or are they spores like Orks?

Buried somewhere in the BRB (P.124), the Spore Theory arrived in the WFB world.  The Ork Spore Theory kinda works in 40K to explain how so many planets are colonized by such a mentally deficient race, but even then why do the Orks command their own ships when launching a Waugh?

For the longest period of time GW maintained that 40K and WFB were completely separated, but they seem to have forgot the party line.  I don't like the fungal theory.  Why do so many tribes live in arid locations, the Badlands, the slopes of the Worlds Edge Mountains, etc.  It does explain Night Goblins and Squigs, but why should the NG's ever want to leave their nice moist caves? 

GW has been so inconsistent with their fluff, that I feel no obligation to follow it to the letter.  Rather, I see it as a starting point for my own fluff. My Ogre bulls will be about 50% female If I can master the secrets of greenstuff.

Leaving aside our green skinned friends, what of the other races.  Skaven fluff clearly states that the females are huge bloated breeding and nursing machines.  Rising to the top of Skaven society gives one the "dubious pleasure" of breeding with one of these things.  Still this makes sense for a hoard army.  They ramp up breeding as fast as the food supply allows.  It has an advantage in a world of incessant warfare.  The danger is that if an opponent can penetrate a Clan Breeding Warren, it is possible to eliminate the clan in one stroke.

Chaos in all of it's forms seems to be exempt from most rules.  Beasts may just as well develop from corrupted humans as being bred in the Drakwald.  In "Paths of the Dead" there is a description of a temple where the Warriors winter and mate with priestesses.  The more accomplished the warrior the more opportunities are available.  While many beasts, are merely corrupted Midaski's, Gors and Ungors seem to be a distinct race or races.

The Undead are even more exempt.

The Bretonnians present an interesting case.  In the mode of 1200-1400 century French background, one could expect the nobles to take advantage of the perks of their office and exercise their seignorial rights with the peasant lasses toiling on the  manor.  The opportunity clearly exists, and the long term result would improve the overall fighting quality of the population as a whole.  Yet such is the antipathy that Bretonnian nobility holds for the peasants who support their society, perhaps the lances loose their spring at the mere thought of such an encounter?

What I am trying to get to with this thread is that the breeding strategy of each species, has a direct relationship to their long term chances for survival.  Skaven present the simplest example.  Females are mere breeding machines.

Elves are the extreme opposite.  Their warriors, male or female are far superior to Skaven, but they reproduce so slowly, even a victorious battle is cause for mourning.  In many ways it seems similar to the current situation in Japan.  For many sociological reasons, the Japanese are not reproducing in numbers sufficient to support their aging population.  This combined with their inability to accept immigration is leading to a potential population implosion.

Just my humble opinion.

[offroadfury88]

the current situation in Japan.  For many sociological reasons, the Japanese are not reproducing in numbers sufficient to support their aging population.  This combined with their inability to accept immigration is leading to a potential population implosion.

well if they put more people on that island it might sink.

[Crimsonsphinx]

UK is heading the way of Japan, apparently it can only sustain 36 million but is heading towards 75 million.  That makes all kinds of sense doesn't it?

I think the RP books have more this kind of background because it is more relevant.  The fantasy battle game is a game, not a way of interaction.  It would be mighty odd to visit towns and never see a female, as is the case with most armies on the tables these days.

[Rosencrantz]

Just one question, new Daemonettes? I wasn't aware they'd done some new ones, could anybody send me a link?

Rosencrantz