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Author Topic: Provincial Traits  (Read 8578 times)

Offline Michael W

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Provincial Traits
« on: November 30, 2007, 03:33:27 AM »
The Empire is a diverse place; our armies are varied, our tactics differing, our styles of play often very different.  More to the point, even sources like the Empire Army Book emphasize differences between the military forces from different provinces and city-states.  Yet the fact is, the difference between a Reikland professional army and a Stirland militia isn't really that big. 

I've seen a few mentions of desires for stronger differences between provincial armies.  I've come at it from a few angles, from varying the Army List based on the province to unique units for each province.  But I think that 40K's system of Traits or Doctrines may be the best solution.

Below is a list of suggested Advantages and Disadvantages to be applied to armies, using the Traits style (as opposed to Doctrines).  This isn't a declaration; I'm just trying to facilitate discussion.  In short, an army can have up to 2 advantages, but each must be balanced by a disadvantage.  Ideally, we at W-E would finalize a list of Ups and Downs, and then cement traits for the provinces and city-states, to be used universally by W-E members in friendly games (obviously, I'm not expecting this to make it far past our community...but it could be lots of fun for us).

So, without further ado, here's the suggested ups and downs that I came up with thus far...

ADVANTAGES
* Elite State Troops
   Some forces include elite regiments, such as the Stir River Patrol, Averland’s famed Mountainguard, or Altdorf’s Palace Guard, who are better trained and drilled than normal Empire soldiers.
   0-1 unit of Spears or Halberdiers may have +1 WS and +1 Ld for +2 pts/model, or 0-1 unit of Swordsmen may have +1 Ld for +1 pt/model.
* Specialized Huntsmen
   In more rural and northern regions, archers are usually grouped into smaller and more flexible contingents to facilitate stealth.
   Huntsman units may be 5-20 men instead of 10-20, and may exchange their bows for crossbows or handguns for +2 pts/model.
* Militia Equipment
   Some wealthier or more violent regions have more heavily armed and armoured militia forces and bandit gangs.
   Free Companies may have light armour (+1 pt/model) and may trade their second hand weapon for pistols    (+3 pts/model).
* Demiliancer Contingents
   Though most young nobles join the Pistolier Corps, some second sons and veteran soldiers form demilancer forces: small, fast units of hard-hitting cavalry that excel at breaking small units and running down broken regiments.
   Any units of Pistoliers may be upgraded to Demilancers.  They lose their second pistol, but gain lances.  Normal command options apply, but the Outrider may not carry a repeater pistol.  Any other provincial traits which apply to Pistoliers apply to Demilancers as well.
* Veteran Officers
   In places where combat is fierce and frequent, the officer corps has become a veteran institution of professionals who inspire men and calm shaking nerves when the heat of battle grows intense.
   Captains in this army cost +20 pts, but are Immune to Panic and bestow this ability upon any unit they join.
* Crusaders
   Though entire armies of knightly forces are uncommon, they are not unheard of, and it is not infrequent for contingents of the Orders to dismount and fight on foot with great two-handed swords.  Most commonly, such forces are found in crusading armies, when an Order deploys the bulk of its manpower toward a single objective.  In these cases, the army is usually comprised primarily of knights, with some state troops or militias filling out the ranks.
   The army may field Greatswords as Core; however, these Greatswords are not stubborn and are not State Troops, and so cannot use detachments, nor can they be detachments.  In addition, Inner Circle Knights are Core (limit 0-1 per Grand Master in the army).
* Gunnery School
   Forces with close ties to the foundries or the Imperial College of Engineers often include officers dedicated to particular cannons.  These men have considerable field expertise and are often quite proud of the weapons which they service.
   Any Cannons or Mortars may have a Master Engineer added to their crew for +50 pts.  The Engineer has access to all weaponry and upgrades provided in his profile, but cannot voluntarily leave the war machine – he is a permanent member of the crew.  He does not use up a Hero choice.
* Heavy Plate
   Particularly wealthy provinces, or sometimes simply eccentric nobles, will sometimes outfit their halberdier contingents in heavier plate armour to increase their survival rates and decrease the number of new recruits needed each year.
   Any Halberdiers in the army may exchange their shields for heavy armour at no cost.
* Sharpshooters
   Areas where handguns are a primary or frequently-used weapon often have veterans grouped into contingents of sharpshooters, who are capable of delivering more accurate or a faster rate of fire.
   Any Handgunner units in the army (not detachments) may be upgraded to Sharpshooters for +2 pt/model.  Sharpshooters benefit from +1 BS.
* Long Guns
   Some foundries build handguns of longer barrels, often braced with stands.  Though more expensive and harder to carry, such guns grant increased range for the deadly shot.
   All handgunners in the army gain +6” range (30” total) and cost +2 pt/model.
* Master Bowmen
   Regions where the bow remains a primary ranged weapon typically carry superior weapons, which take longer to craft but are much appreciated by their bearers.
   The army’s archers and huntsmen are equipped with longbows and cost +1 pt/model.
* Fevered Devotion
   Particularly religious or afflicted regions become practically renowned for their flagellant bands, and those who take the call are even more ferverent and eager to suffer than most flagellants in the Empire.
   Any Flagellants in the army benefit from +1 Toughness, but cost +2 pts/model.
* Leader of Men
   The army is led by a particularly well-known or commanding officer, who has quickly earned the respect and often the devotion of his men.
   The army general has a leadership range of 18”, but costs +35 pts.
* Fearsome Reputation
   The army includes a unit of hardened veterans with a legacy of ruthlessness or viciousness, whose reputation has spread considerably beyond the borders of their province.
   Any single unit in the army may cause Fear for +2 pts/unit strength.
* Half-pikes
   Southern regions of the Empire often employ a longer and more cumbersome weapon than the spear of the north, called the half-pike, adopted from Tilea.
   Spearmen may not carry shields, but fight in 3 ranks instead of 2.  They cost +1 pt/model.


DISADVANTAGES
* Little Blackpowder
   Some regions are too poor to afford much blackpowder weaponry, while others simply disdain it.  Whatever the reason, the army includes considerably less powder weapons than normal.
   Cannons, Mortars, and Outriders use Rare choices, and Handgunners use Special slots.  Steam Tanks are limited 0-1.  If Handgunners are taken as detachments (regardless of how many such units), a single Special slot is used up.
* Conscripts
   Many regions forcibly supplement their infantry corps in times of war or plague, finding a need for men more pressing than their experience.  Such forces are less reliable than more professional Empire armies.
   All Empire Core Infantry loses the State Troops special rule and become Militia, and thus cannot serve as Parent Units.  Up to 1/2 of the Core melee (Halberdiers, Swordsmen, and Spearmen) infantry units in the army may buy the rule back (representing regular infantry supplemented by conscripts) for +40 pts/unit.
* Cultured
   More developed regions find that they have a growing middle class, which results in a sizable economy but tends to drive away the rough men who take to a life of banditry and war.  They usually must rely on trained soldiers rather than hurried recruitments when drawing men for battle.
   All Militia units use Special slots.  If Militia are included in the army as detachments, regardless of how many such detachments, one Special slot is used up.
* Civilized and Reasoned
   When prophets are driven from the street by philosophers, and priests take the duties of administration before that of the battlefield, it becomes much harder to find a raging mob led by a cold priest with a hard hammer.
   Flagellants never use up a Core slot – they are always Rare, even if the army includes a Warrior Priest or Arch Lector.  Warrior Priests are limited to 0-1 per 2000 points, Arch Lectors are 0-1, and neither may ever be the Army General.
* Superstitious
   Some regions are still backward, or strict, and treat magic as the tool of the demons of the north and the disloyal elves.  Wizards in such places, regardless of their credentials, are unwelcome at best.
   The army is limited to 0-1 Battle Wizard per 2000 points, and 0-1 Wizard Lords.  Wizards of any type may never be the Army General.
* Poor Province
   In some places, the money simply doesn’t exist to easily recruit men or forge armour in great numbers.
   Greatswords and Pistoliers cost +2 pts/model, Knights and Outriders cost +3 pts/model.
* Small Population
   In regions of low density populations and few cities, or in heavily developed areas, militiamen are available for duty, but it is difficult to keep a full garrison of state troops on permanent standby.
   All State Troops in the army cost +1 pt/model.
* Overconfident
   Whether pride, history, or simply naiveté, the troops in this army are supremely confident of regular, easy victory; finding that they must pay in blood is often an uncomfortable discovery.
   The entire army suffers -1 Leadership on Break Tests.
* Few Relics
   Recently raided or poor regions often lack the magic arsenal that wealthier areas can put together. 
   Limit 0-1 magic items per Character.
* Poorly Equipped
   Troops that are hurriedly assembled or conscripted often don’t even receive basic equipment for survival on the battlefield.
   Halberdiers, Swordsmen, and Spearmen do not come equipped with Light Armour.  This trait cannot be taken by an army that has taken the Heavy Plate rule.
* Fresh Recruits
   When rebuilding an army, or assembling a new one, the force often includes considerable numbers of new faces; young men who have not yet seen true battle, and who may be prone to fleeing at the sight of monsters, dragons, and bloodthirsty, well-nigh invincible foemen.
   All Militia and State Troops suffer -1 Leadership on Fear, Terror, and Panic tests.
* It Looks Better in the Hall
   Some places have few, if any, magical standards, and they are jealously guarded and rarely used.  In other cases, an inept noble just thinks it looks better on the wall than on a flagpole.
   The army may not include any magical standards.
*Pomp and Ceremony
  In the more peaceful regions of the Empire troops are often equipped for pageantry and ceremonies, rather than actual combat.
  All State Troops and Militia units must contain a standard bearer and musician if permitted by the standard rules.  In addition, the army must be led by a General or Captain of the Empire.
*Cheap Quartermaster
   The supply officer for the army went with a human bidder instead of a dwarven one. 
   All units listed as having 'Full Plate Armour' (Knights and Greatswords) instead only have Heavy Armour, and characters may not take Full Plate Armour at all.
* Glorious Expectations
   The horsemen in the army are full of themselves and their duty, and jostle to be the first to engage the enemy in battle.
   All cavalry units in the army suffer from the Impetuous rule and must make a Leadership test to avoid charging an enemy within range at the beginning of the Compulsory Movement phase (if they have not already moved or attempted to charge).
* Inept Commanders
   Whether by birth or breeding, many of this army’s top officers are less than perfect for the job of leading an army into battle, and have difficulty enforcing their will (if they have one at all) in the chaos and confusion of combat.
   The Army General’s leadership range is limited to 6”.  This trait cannot be taken in conjunction with Leader of Men.

Feedback?    :happy:
Thanks in advance!
 :::cheers::: :::cheers::: :::cheers:::

Edit 12-1-07:  The above list has been modified per the suggestions below.  Further thoughts and options?
...and thanks to Wissenlander for getting started on the actual Provinces.  I'll do some sketching while I'm gone this weekend, but please put in your own thoughts! 
 :happy:  Thanks, all, and good work!
« Last Edit: March 05, 2009, 01:50:12 AM by Michael W »
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----------------------------

Offline Warlord

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Re: Provincial Traits
« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2007, 04:57:11 AM »
First of all, great idea. Something I had always been an advocate of, but never been bothered to write up. Not quite the same style – yours is more simplistic, however I think it works a bit better….

A question first, are these ‘Provincial Traits’ mandatory – can you just use the normal Empire list too?

There are a few areas I really don’t think are appropriate / could do with some tooling.

ADVANTAGES
 * Specialized Huntsmen
   In more rural and northern regions, archers are usually grouped into smaller and more flexible contingents to facilitate stealth.
   Archer units may be 5-20 men instead of 10-20.
This rule is about Archers, not huntsmen. I believe this rule should be in relation to units of Huntsmen only, and that Huntsmen may be equipped with Handguns or Crossbows instead of bows if you so choose.

* Demiliancer Contingents
   Though most young nobles join the Pistolier Corps, some second sons and veteran soldiers form demilancer forces: small, fast units of hard-hitting cavalry that excel at breaking small units and running down broken regiments.
   Any units of Pistoliers may be upgraded to Demilancers.  They lose their pistols, but gain lances, and    decrease to 15 pts/model.  Normal command options apply, but the Outrider trades his lance for the    repeater pistol.
I believe they should swap their second pistol (so no longer brace) for a lance or light lance(spear) rather than remove pistols all together. Price stays the same. Outrider is just a simple upgrade of BS and WS – no special equipment.

* Crusaders
   Though entire armies of knightly forces are uncommon, they are not unheard of, and it is not infrequent for contingents of the Orders to dismount and fight on foot with great two-handed swords.  Most commonly, such forces are found in crusading armies, when an Order deploys the bulk of its manpower toward a single objective.  In these cases, the army is usually comprised primarily of knights, with some state troops or militias filling out the ranks.
   The army may field Greatswords as Core; however, these Greatswords are not stubborn and are not State    Troops, and so cannot use detachments, nor can they be detachments.  In addition, Inner Circle Knights are    Core (limit 0-1 per Grand Master in the army).
This rule has the potential for abuse – I see lots of Knights, Greatswords and Cannons - with the ability to pick and choose disadvantages, this is too powerful.
I would change this to be something like – if a GM is your general, IC knights become Core.

* Heavy Plate
   Particularly wealthy provinces, or sometimes simply eccentric nobles, will sometimes outfit their halberdier contingents in heavier plate armour to increase their survival rates and decrease the number of new recruits needed each year.
   Any Halberdiers in the army may be equipped with heavy armour (+1 pt/model).

This shouldn’t be part of provincial traits, this should be part of the real list. However, you need to also state that they cannot have shields. Because couple this, with ‘Elite State Troops’ and some people will never take Swordsmen again – because they have halberdiers (not using the halberd) with a better AS and LD.

* Sharpshooters
   Areas where handguns are a primary or frequently-used weapon often have veterans grouped into contingents of sharpshooters, who are capable of delivering more accurate or a faster rate of fire.
   Any Handgunner units in the army (not detachments) may be upgraded to Sharpshooters for +2 pt/model.  Sharpshooters benefit from +1 BS.
* Long Guns
   Some foundries build handguns of longer barrels, often braced with stands.  Though more expensive and harder to carry, such guns grant increased range for the deadly shot.
   All handgunners in the army gain +6” range (30” total) and cost +1 pt/model.
These 2 combined would give a huge advantage / incentive to Gunline armies. Both IMO are overpowered and inappropriate. The Sharpshooter rule IMO should be dropped, and the LongGuns rule should be an additional +D6 first shot of the game like the old handgun rules…

* Master Bowmen
   Regions where the bow remains a primary ranged weapon typically carry superior weapons, which take longer to craft but are much appreciated by their bearers.
   The army’s archers are equipped with longbows and cost +1 pt/model.
Need to also mention Huntsmen.

* Fearsome Reputation
   The army includes a unit of hardened veterans with a legacy of ruthlessness or viciousness, whose reputation has spread considerably beyond the borders of their province.
   Any single unit in the army may cause Fear for +40 pts.
Considering the banner of the Demonslayer is 50pts, I would suggest raising this to 50 or 60pts.

DISADVANTAGES
* Little Blackpowder
   Some regions are too poor to afford much blackpowder weaponry, while others simply disdain it.  Whatever the reason, the army includes considerably less powder weapons than normal.
   Cannons and Mortars use Rare choices, and Handgunners use Special slots.  If Handgunners are taken as detachments (regardless of how many such units), a single Special slot is used up.
No mention of pistoliers, outriders, Helblasters, Helstorms, Engineers, Steam Tanks and gunpowder weapons for characters.
I think there needs to be…

* Conscripts
   Many regions forcibly supplement their infantry corps in times of war or plague, finding a need for men more pressing than their experience.  Such forces are less reliable than more professional Empire armies.
   Swords use up Special slots, and Greatswords use up Rares.  Spear units suffer -1 Leadership.
I think this rule is good in principle, however the execution is wanting. I think that it should simply be a ‘No detachments’ special rule – because conscripts would have no idea how to work in unison with State Troops.

* Cultured
   More developed regions find that they have a growing middle class, which results in a sizable economy but tends to drive away the rough men who take to a life of banditry and war.  They usually must rely on trained soldiers rather than hurried recruitments when drawing men for battle.
   All Militia units use Special slots.  If Militia are included in the army as detachments, regardless of how many such detachments, one Special slot is used up.
 * Civilized and Reasoned
   When prophets are driven from the street by philosophers, and priests take the duties of administration before that of the battlefield, it becomes much harder to find a raging mob led by a cold priest with a hard hammer.
   Flagellants never use up a Core slot – they are always Rare, even if the army includes a Warrior Priest or Arch Lector.  Warrior Priests are limited to 0-1 per 2000 points, Arch Lectors are 0-1, and neither may ever be the Army General.
I think these 2 should be combined into 1 disadvantage.

* Superstitious
   Some regions are still backward, or strict, and treat magic as the tool of the demons of the north and the disloyal elves.  Wizards in such places, regardless of their credentials, are unwelcome at best.
   The army is limited to 0-1 Battle Wizard per 2000 points, and 0-1 Wizard Lords.
This should be 0-1 Wizard Lords allowed in battles greater than 2500 pts.

* Small Population
   In regions of low density populations and few cities, or in heavily developed areas, it can be difficult to round up enough militiamen for duty.
   All Militia cost +1 pt/model.
Again, I don’t believe this is a big enough of a disadvantage. I think it should turned around to be something along the lines of – "because of the small population, militia men are always ready to defend their homes because there are not enough state troops allocated to the region" – all state troops +1pt.

* Overconfident
   Whether pride, history, or simply naiveté, the troops in this army are supremely confident of regular, easy victory; finding that they must pay in blood is often an uncomfortable discovery.
   The entire army suffers -1 Leadership on Break Tests.
I would insert an impetuous type rule here rather than leadership modifier…

* Fresh Recruits
   When rebuilding an army, or assembling a new one, the force often includes considerable numbers of new faces; young men who have not yet seen true battle, and who may be prone to fleeing at the sight of monsters, dragons, and bloodthirsty, well-nigh invincible foemen.
   All Militia and State Troops suffer -1 Leadership on Fear, Terror, and Panic tests.
Needs to mention even when taking into account modifiers for Characters.

Otherwise, I think the rest are balanced and well thought out. Once again Well done – and I look forward to other members feedback…
« Last Edit: November 30, 2007, 05:01:55 AM by Warlord »
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Offline CaptScott

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Re: Provincial Traits
« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2007, 05:51:31 AM »
I can see a problem with two of the disadvantages

Quote
* Cultured
   More developed regions find that they have a growing middle class, which results in a sizable economy but tends to drive away the rough men who take to a life of banditry and war.  They usually must rely on trained soldiers rather than hurried recruitments when drawing men for battle.
   All Militia units use Special slots.  If Militia are included in the army as detachments, regardless of how many such detachments, one Special slot is used up.

This disadvantage could be abused if you don't use militia, as it will have no impact.

Quote
* Little Blackpowder
   Some regions are too poor to afford much blackpowder weaponry, while others simply disdain it.  Whatever the reason, the army includes considerably less powder weapons than normal.
   Cannons and Mortars use Rare choices, and Handgunners use Special slots.  If Handgunners are taken as detachments (regardless of how many such units), a single Special slot is used up.

Once again if you don't use blackpowder then this has no impact.  Furthermore this one is actually more of an advantage than an disadvantage in that it allows you to free up some special slots, I for one would love cannons and mortars to be rare.  As Warlord suggested, including outriders and pistoliers etc may improve this (i.e. cannons, mortars, pistoliers and outriders are rare choices, handgunners are special)

Another intersesting disadvantage would be:

*Pomp and Ceremony
  In the more peaceful regions of the Empire troops are often equipped for pageantry and ceremonies, rather than actual combat.
  All units must contain a standard bearer and musician if permitted by the standard rules, in addition the army must be led by a General of the Empire.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2007, 06:01:24 AM by CaptScott »
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Offline BAWTRM

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Re: Provincial Traits
« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2007, 07:46:08 AM »
Like the others I see a lot I like and a few things that need some work.

Quote
* Veteran Officers
   In places where combat is fierce and frequent, the officer corps has become a veteran institution of professionals who inspire men and calm shaking nerves when the heat of battle grows intense.
   Captains in this army cost +15 pts, but are Immune to Panic and bestow this ability upon any unit they join.

An immune to panic ability for just 15 pts is really cheap. How about +1 Ld for the purpose of Panic tests?

Quote
* Heavy Plate
   Particularly wealthy provinces, or sometimes simply eccentric nobles, will sometimes outfit their halberdier contingents in heavier plate armour to increase their survival rates and decrease the number of new recruits needed each year.
   Any Halberdiers in the army may be equipped with heavy armour (+1 pt/model).

I'd simply allow them to swap their shields for HA at no cost

Quote
* Sharpshooters
   Areas where handguns are a primary or frequently-used weapon often have veterans grouped into contingents of sharpshooters, who are capable of delivering more accurate or a faster rate of fire.
   Any Handgunner units in the army (not detachments) may be upgraded to Sharpshooters for +2 pt/model.  Sharpshooters benefit from +1 BS.
* Long Guns
   Some foundries build handguns of longer barrels, often braced with stands.  Though more expensive and harder to carry, such guns grant increased range for the deadly shot.
   All handgunners in the army gain +6” range (30” total) and cost +1 pt/model.

I actually see no problem at all with these 2 abilities, I think they are fairly priced for what they do. Maybe disallow all non-black powder missile weapons in the army as well?

Quote
   The army includes a unit of hardened veterans with a legacy of ruthlessness or viciousness, whose reputation has spread considerably beyond the borders of their province.
   Any single unit in the army may cause Fear for +40 pts.

Like said this is too cheap, I'd change it to +2 pts/model and models on foot only

Quote
* Little Blackpowder
   Some regions are too poor to afford much blackpowder weaponry, while others simply disdain it.  Whatever the reason, the army includes considerably less powder weapons than normal.
   Cannons and Mortars use Rare choices, and Handgunners use Special slots.  If Handgunners are taken as detachments (regardless of how many such units), a single Special slot is used up.

I agree with what the others have said here.

Quote
* Superstitious
   Some regions are still backward, or strict, and treat magic as the tool of the demons of the north and the disloyal elves.  Wizards in such places, regardless of their credentials, are unwelcome at best.
   The army is limited to 0-1 Battle Wizard per 2000 points, and 0-1 Wizard Lords.

I'd add the 'Cannot be the army general' thing here as well

Great idea this traits system, really adds some diversity to an army.
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Offline rufus sparkfire

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Re: Provincial Traits
« Reply #4 on: November 30, 2007, 11:24:30 AM »
I don't have any specific comments at the moment, but I do think this is an excellent idea!


Quote from: Michael W
then cement traits for the provinces and city-states

I think making certain advantages go with certain disadvantages would go a long way to balancing the system (by avoiding the dreaded 'min-max' approach).
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Offline Sir Lukas von Markov

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Re: Provincial Traits
« Reply #5 on: November 30, 2007, 11:42:12 AM »
I myself think this is really awesome :biggriin:

But wasnt there like a kind of army planner in the back of the old empire book with crusader armies and coll stuff like that. Has that now been reduced to fluff only :?

If yes that really really really sucks :icon_evil:
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Offline Rusty

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Re: Provincial Traits
« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2007, 12:43:39 PM »
I think any worries about players abusing these traits as currently written are a little unfounded. Any opponent is obviously going to have to agree to the player using these rules anyway, so if the player picks a disadvantage that doesn't affect them (e.g. Cultured in an army that doesn't even field Militia) or that can actually work out as an advantage for them (e.g. Little Blackpowder) then the opponent is surely going to just say no. It's not like the Empire player can use "But this Empire online community says I can!" as a get-out clause. :icon_wink: There is also the hope that any Empire player using these rules is doing so for character rather than for power, and so will happily choose disadvantages that will affect him negatively, but maybe I just have my rose-tinted eyes in this afternoon.

As for an actual system for chosing the traits, I think a list of Provinces (and City States) and which traits they may choose is a really good way to go, e.g. "Averland may have this or this advantage, but if so must take this or this disadvantage." Obviously some (dis)advantages would apply to more than one Province, but it shouldn't be too hard to get a unique set for each Province. It would be a list for guidance only, since clearly anyone can go away and do whatever the hell they want anyway, but I think it would be a great rule-of-thumb kind of thing, plus a helping hand for a new player or one who just doesn't know much fluff yet.

[/£0.02]

Quick ideas for additional traits:
- The number of State Troops models in an army may not outnumber the number of Militia models?
- Restrictions on cavalry/war machines/both for particularly wooded/mountainous areas?

[edit]Apologies if parts of this post aren't clear or have repeated what others have said, but I've ran out of time to change it and/or read through the thread again. :icon_razz: [/edit]

[edit2]Remembered how to spell "choose".  :icon_rolleyes: [/edit2]
« Last Edit: November 30, 2007, 11:43:15 PM by Rusty »
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Offline wissenlander

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Re: Provincial Traits
« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2007, 02:32:26 PM »
Like the idea a lot.  FR1DAY's got a Wissenland specific list that he has come up with which I think is very good.  It's not done in the same fashion, but still good.

There could be issues of min/maxing as people work on a good build, but this is supposed to be an issue of fluff being shown in the gaming.  It would be nice if people would play fluffy, but that's a problem that GW has...assuming that people will play that way just because they do. 

A list for each province in what characteristics they could and couldn't take would be good, but it might limit those who haven't got a strict fluff parameter (new province, unique town in a province, etc.).

I think the one that probably would be abused the greatest would be the crusader trait.
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Offline Michael W

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Re: Provincial Traits
« Reply #8 on: November 30, 2007, 06:40:28 PM »
A question first, are these ‘Provincial Traits’ mandatory – can you just use the normal Empire list too?
If you take no advantages, you take no disadvantages...so yes, you could always use an unmodified Empire list.  I'm not proposing rewriting the rulebook or anything.

* Specialized Huntsmen
   In more rural and northern regions, archers are usually grouped into smaller and more flexible contingents to facilitate stealth.
   Archer units may be 5-20 men instead of 10-20.
This rule is about Archers, not huntsmen. I believe this rule should be in relation to units of Huntsmen only, and that Huntsmen may be equipped with Handguns or Crossbows instead of bows if you so choose.
Since Huntsmen are now just an upgrade for Archers, I was actually thinking that both this and the "Master Bowmen" rule would just apply to both.  That said...how about "Huntsmen may be in units of 5-20 (instead of 10-20), and may exchange their bows for crossbows or handguns for +2 pts/model"?

* Demiliancer Contingents
   Though most young nobles join the Pistolier Corps, some second sons and veteran soldiers form demilancer forces: small, fast units of hard-hitting cavalry that excel at breaking small units and running down broken regiments.
   Any units of Pistoliers may be upgraded to Demilancers.  They lose their pistols, but gain lances, and    decrease to 15 pts/model.  Normal command options apply, but the Outrider trades his lance for the    repeater pistol.
I believe they should swap their second pistol (so no longer brace) for a lance or light lance(spear) rather than remove pistols all together. Price stays the same. Outrider is just a simple upgrade of BS and WS – no special equipment.
Awesome, and fine by me.  And probably a "Any other provincial traits which apply to Pistoliers apply to Demilancers as well."

* Crusaders
   Though entire armies of knightly forces are uncommon, they are not unheard of, and it is not infrequent for contingents of the Orders to dismount and fight on foot with great two-handed swords.  Most commonly, such forces are found in crusading armies, when an Order deploys the bulk of its manpower toward a single objective.  In these cases, the army is usually comprised primarily of knights, with some state troops or militias filling out the ranks.
   The army may field Greatswords as Core; however, these Greatswords are not stubborn and are not State    Troops, and so cannot use detachments, nor can they be detachments.  In addition, Inner Circle Knights are    Core (limit 0-1 per Grand Master in the army).
This rule has the potential for abuse – I see lots of Knights, Greatswords and Cannons - with the ability to pick and choose disadvantages, this is too powerful.
I would change this to be something like – if a GM is your general, IC knights become Core.
How many non-stubborn, detachment-less Greatsword units are you going to field?  I was trying to come up with a way to allow a player to take an all-knight army that wasn't all mounted, but by taking away the chief ways that Empire infantry wins combats (easy CR), it wouldn't be much different from an army you could build with the core rulebook anyway.

* Heavy Plate
   Particularly wealthy provinces, or sometimes simply eccentric nobles, will sometimes outfit their halberdier contingents in heavier plate armour to increase their survival rates and decrease the number of new recruits needed each year.
   Any Halberdiers in the army may be equipped with heavy armour (+1 pt/model).
This shouldn’t be part of provincial traits, this should be part of the real list. However, you need to also state that they cannot have shields. Because couple this, with ‘Elite State Troops’ and some people will never take Swordsmen again – because they have halberdiers (not using the halberd) with a better AS and LD.
Point.  Per BAWTRM's suggestion, it should be modified to "Halberdiers in the army may swap their shields for heavy armour at no cost."

* Sharpshooters
   Areas where handguns are a primary or frequently-used weapon often have veterans grouped into contingents of sharpshooters, who are capable of delivering more accurate or a faster rate of fire.
   Any Handgunner units in the army (not detachments) may be upgraded to Sharpshooters for +2 pt/model.  Sharpshooters benefit from +1 BS.
* Long Guns
   Some foundries build handguns of longer barrels, often braced with stands.  Though more expensive and harder to carry, such guns grant increased range for the deadly shot.
   All handgunners in the army gain +6” range (30” total) and cost +1 pt/model.
These 2 combined would give a huge advantage / incentive to Gunline armies. Both IMO are overpowered and inappropriate. The Sharpshooter rule IMO should be dropped, and the LongGuns rule should be an additional +D6 first shot of the game like the old handgun rules…
How about Sharpshooters being limited to 0-1 per army (like Elite State Troops)?  They're basically dismounted, non-armoured, not-as-well-armed Outriders...not an unbelievable stat line for Empire troops.  Regarding Long Guns, how about costing +2 pts/model instead of +1? A player will have a real choice between 8 pt Crossbowmen and 10 pt Handgunners, with AP being the only difference.  And if he wants BS4, 30" range handguns, he'll be paying 1.5x the price of standard missile troops.

* Master Bowmen
   Regions where the bow remains a primary ranged weapon typically carry superior weapons, which take longer to craft but are much appreciated by their bearers.
   The army’s archers are equipped with longbows and cost +1 pt/model.
Need to also mention Huntsmen.
As above...anything that applies to Archers applies to Huntsmen.  I probably should have clarified that immediately.

* Fearsome Reputation
   The army includes a unit of hardened veterans with a legacy of ruthlessness or viciousness, whose reputation has spread considerably beyond the borders of their province.
   Any single unit in the army may cause Fear for +40 pts.
Considering the banner of the Demonslayer is 50pts, I would suggest raising this to 50 or 60pts.
60 is fine by me.  This rule would, theoretically, allow a player to add a bit more flavor to units like the Carroburg Greatswords.

* Little Blackpowder
   Some regions are too poor to afford much blackpowder weaponry, while others simply disdain it.  Whatever the reason, the army includes considerably less powder weapons than normal.
   Cannons and Mortars use Rare choices, and Handgunners use Special slots.  If Handgunners are taken as detachments (regardless of how many such units), a single Special slot is used up.
No mention of pistoliers, outriders, Helblasters, Helstorms, Engineers, Steam Tanks and gunpowder weapons for characters.
I think there needs to be…
Hmm.  So much Blackpowder.  Pistoliers should stay Special, Outriders move to Rare, and Steam Tanks to 0-1.  I don't want to blatantly remove anything from the army list, but in a 2000-pt battle, a player will be facing 2 slots for all his artillery and specialized ranged shooters.  As for characters...Engineers bring their own equipment, and most nobles and officers, I would imagine, can still afford a pistol or handgun.  I'm not trying to ban Blackpowder - if you want that, just don't take any - but to restrict it instead.

* Conscripts
   Many regions forcibly supplement their infantry corps in times of war or plague, finding a need for men more pressing than their experience.  Such forces are less reliable than more professional Empire armies.
   Swords use up Special slots, and Greatswords use up Rares.  Spear units suffer -1 Leadership.
I think this rule is good in principle, however the execution is wanting. I think that it should simply be a ‘No detachments’ special rule – because conscripts would have no idea how to work in unison with State Troops.
Ouch.  How about "All Empire Core Infantry loses the State Troops special rule.  Up to 1/2 of the Core melee (Halberdiers, Swordsmen, and Spearmen) infantry units in the army may buy the rule back (representing regular infantry supplemented by conscripts) for +40 pts/unit."?

* Cultured
   More developed regions find that they have a growing middle class, which results in a sizable economy but tends to drive away the rough men who take to a life of banditry and war.  They usually must rely on trained soldiers rather than hurried recruitments when drawing men for battle.
   All Militia units use Special slots.  If Militia are included in the army as detachments, regardless of how many such detachments, one Special slot is used up.
 * Civilized and Reasoned
   When prophets are driven from the street by philosophers, and priests take the duties of administration before that of the battlefield, it becomes much harder to find a raging mob led by a cold priest with a hard hammer.
   Flagellants never use up a Core slot – they are always Rare, even if the army includes a Warrior Priest or Arch Lector.  Warrior Priests are limited to 0-1 per 2000 points, Arch Lectors are 0-1, and neither may ever be the Army General.
I think these 2 should be combined into 1 disadvantage.
One giant disadvantage, or toned down and combined?  For me, I like them separately, though they both hurt. 

* Superstitious
   Some regions are still backward, or strict, and treat magic as the tool of the demons of the north and the disloyal elves.  Wizards in such places, regardless of their credentials, are unwelcome at best.
   The army is limited to 0-1 Battle Wizard per 2000 points, and 0-1 Wizard Lords.
This should be 0-1 Wizard Lords allowed in battles greater than 2500 pts.
Hmm.  Same for the Arch Lectors in "Civilized and Reasoned?"  How about just saying that neither Wizards nor Wizard Lords may ever be the Army General?

* Small Population
   In regions of low density populations and few cities, or in heavily developed areas, it can be difficult to round up enough militiamen for duty.
   All Militia cost +1 pt/model.
Again, I don’t believe this is a big enough of a disadvantage. I think it should turned around to be something along the lines of – "because of the small population, militia men are always ready to defend their homes because there are not enough state troops allocated to the region" – all state troops +1pt.
Score.  Totally like it.   :::cheers:::  (Barkeep, PIOMT)

* Overconfident
   Whether pride, history, or simply naiveté, the troops in this army are supremely confident of regular, easy victory; finding that they must pay in blood is often an uncomfortable discovery.
   The entire army suffers -1 Leadership on Break Tests.
I would insert an impetuous type rule here rather than leadership modifier…
How about a new, different disadvantage that confers Impetuous upon all State Troops (or Knights?) in the Army?

* Fresh Recruits
   When rebuilding an army, or assembling a new one, the force often includes considerable numbers of new faces; young men who have not yet seen true battle, and who may be prone to fleeing at the sight of monsters, dragons, and bloodthirsty, well-nigh invincible foemen.
   All Militia and State Troops suffer -1 Leadership on Fear, Terror, and Panic tests.
Needs to mention even when taking into account modifiers for Characters.
Cool.  No problem there.


Quote
* Cultured
   More developed regions find that they have a growing middle class, which results in a sizable economy but tends to drive away the rough men who take to a life of banditry and war.  They usually must rely on trained soldiers rather than hurried recruitments when drawing men for battle.
   All Militia units use Special slots.  If Militia are included in the army as detachments, regardless of how many such detachments, one Special slot is used up.
This disadvantage could be abused if you don't use militia, as it will have no impact.
True.  But most players seem to, and this is for fluff and character, not pure competitiveness.  That said...how about a "You can't take a disadvantage that applies to a specific troop type if you don't field any of those troops in your army" overarching rule, just for those who have to power game on every level?

*Pomp and Ceremony
  In the more peaceful regions of the Empire troops are often equipped for pageantry and ceremonies, rather than actual combat.
  All units must contain a standard bearer and musician if permitted by the standard rules, in addition the army must be led by a General of the Empire.
Just change to "All State Troops and Militias" (the Knights being pretty much do-it-themselves-ers), and I love it.

Quote
* Veteran Officers
   In places where combat is fierce and frequent, the officer corps has become a veteran institution of professionals who inspire men and calm shaking nerves when the heat of battle grows intense.
   Captains in this army cost +15 pts, but are Immune to Panic and bestow this ability upon any unit they join.
An immune to panic ability for just 15 pts is really cheap. How about +1 Ld for the purpose of Panic tests?
I was just trying to replicate the old Middenheim Seneschal, actually.  Maybe 20 pts instead of 15?


Quote
* Sharpshooters
   Areas where handguns are a primary or frequently-used weapon often have veterans grouped into contingents of sharpshooters, who are capable of delivering more accurate or a faster rate of fire.
   Any Handgunner units in the army (not detachments) may be upgraded to Sharpshooters for +2 pt/model.  Sharpshooters benefit from +1 BS.
* Long Guns
   Some foundries build handguns of longer barrels, often braced with stands.  Though more expensive and harder to carry, such guns grant increased range for the deadly shot.
   All handgunners in the army gain +6” range (30” total) and cost +1 pt/model.
I actually see no problem at all with these 2 abilities, I think they are fairly priced for what they do. Maybe disallow all non-black powder missile weapons in the army as well?
I thought about that, but I'd qualify that as a disadvantage, and I was trying to keep away from traits that balanced themselves out.

But wasnt there like a kind of army planner in the back of the old empire book with crusader armies and coll stuff like that. Has that now been reduced to fluff only :?
Yes, yes it has.  Sorry.

@ Rufas Sparkfire, Rusty, and Wiss - AWESOME suggestions.  I was thinking of a dedicated province system (ie, "Reikland benefits from Sharpshooters and Long Guns, but is Cultured and Civilized & Reasoned), but the idea of even provinces having a selection of advantages and disadvantages - and having certain ups tied to certain downs - is phenomenal.  And a lot of work.  I'll start brainstorming...now.

One last thought.  How about another disadvantage:  "Cheap QuartermasterThe supply officer for the army went with a human bidder instead of a dwarven one.  All units listed as having 'Full Plate Armour' (Knights and Greatswords) instead only have Heavy Armour, and characters may not take Full Plate Armour at all."

 :::cheers::: :::cheers::: :::cheers:::
Drinks for everybody!  On Midaski.
Let them taste Reikland steel!
----------------------------

Offline Hawillis

  • Posts: 116
Re: Provincial Traits
« Reply #9 on: November 30, 2007, 08:39:13 PM »
Well done for the effort. I love the idea. Advantages seem fine.

Disadvantages need tweaking, eg. as pointed out if I have no milita anyways I can basically just get a free advantage.

Offline wissenlander

  • Posts: 7159
  • The original Graf of Brennenburg
Re: Provincial Traits
« Reply #10 on: November 30, 2007, 09:12:54 PM »
This would depend on the set limitation based upon provinces.  I'll use Wissenland as a starting example.

Advantages:
Specialized Huntsmen, Master Bowmen, Half Pikes and Demilancers.  (Could potentially have Leader of Men, Fearsome Reputation,  and possibly Veteran Officers, but I could be pushing it a bit on that last one).

Disadvantages: 
Little Blackpowder, Superstitious, Poor Province, Small Population, Conscripts (Potentially Few Relics, Poorly Equipped and Fresh Faces as well.  Pomp and Ceremony would also work for the Wissenburg Greatswords that don't get into battle much anymore).

If you really want to min/max that bad, it still can be done...but this way it puts you into a tighter restraint in what you can and can't do.
Me and Wissenlander had babies!

not together.

finding photographic evidense that Wiss smiles is going to be hard...

Offline Rusty

  • Posts: 48
Re: Provincial Traits
« Reply #11 on: November 30, 2007, 09:50:42 PM »
A couple more things:

* Heavy Plate
   Particularly wealthy provinces, or sometimes simply eccentric nobles, will sometimes outfit their halberdier contingents in heavier plate armour to increase their survival rates and decrease the number of new recruits needed each year.
   Any Halberdiers in the army may be equipped with heavy armour (+1 pt/model).

This shouldn’t be part of provincial traits, this should be part of the real list. However, you need to also state that they cannot have shields. Because couple this, with ‘Elite State Troops’ and some people will never take Swordsmen again – because they have halberdiers (not using the halberd) with a better AS and LD.
Perhaps a couple of additional restrictions can be made to prevent overpowering, e.g. you can't take two advantages that affect the same unit type. That way if you take Elite State Troops (stat increase for a unit of Spearmen or Halberdiers), you can't also take Heavy Plate (heavy armour for Halberdiers). Alternatively, just saying that an individual unit can't benefit from two advantages may also work, e.g. one unit of Halberdiers can be Elite State Troops, and another unit can have Heavy Plate. This also works for Sharpshooters + Long Guns.

I also agree with BAWTRM in that Fearsome Reputation should be on a points-per-model basis, since its effectiveness will increase with unit size, so its cost should follow suit too.
Remember: fluff before you buff.

Offline Kingwithoutacrown

  • Posts: 15
Re: Provincial Traits
« Reply #12 on: November 30, 2007, 10:04:08 PM »
Also, some of these should probably be of the 'must be shown on the model variety'. Fearsome reputation, for example. Human skulls mounted on helmets and necklaces of ears, etc. Likewise with armour upgrades. Hurts the min-max if people have to show it.
There's always a bigger fish

Offline offroadfury88

  • Posts: 1889
  • Und die Vögel singen nicht mehr
Re: Provincial Traits
« Reply #13 on: November 30, 2007, 10:21:41 PM »
The advantages are way better then the disadvantages. you need to make the players feel the pain when they have to take a disadvantage.

Quote
* Fearsome Reputation
   The army includes a unit of hardened veterans with a legacy of ruthlessness or viciousness, whose reputation has spread considerably beyond the borders of their province.
   Any single unit in the army may cause Fear for +40 pts.

I dont like this one. Lets keep men just men, their not huge chaos warriors, their not undead their not half dragon things, their just men, there is no reason to make them cause fear

Quote
* Half-pikes
   Southern regions of the Empire often employ a longer and more cumbersome weapon than the spear of the north, called the half-pike, adopted from Tilea.
   Spearmen may not carry shields, but fight in 3 ranks instead of 2.  They cost +1 pt/model.

I really like this one, makes sense since we dont have pikes, coupled with the haleberdiers you could start seeing armies that dont use swordsmen any more.
Happiness never decreases by being shared.
 -The Buddha

An act of kindness surpasses a thousand prayers
 -Sa'di

Offline Rufas the Eccentric

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Re: Provincial Traits
« Reply #14 on: November 30, 2007, 11:05:27 PM »
Excellent work, but some of the details could be ironed out.

One suggestion on Demilancers.  By definition, "demi" means half.  I would allow the Demilancers to carry a single pistol and a spear.  This also is consistant with the Demilancers as described in the "Paths of the Dead"

I might suggest incorporating the rules published in WD 309 (U.S.) for alternate Knightly Orders.
Sigmar on a sling, the stuff some people come up with. . . .

Doop123

  • Guest
Re: Provincial Traits
« Reply #15 on: November 30, 2007, 11:18:11 PM »
Good job.

Offline offroadfury88

  • Posts: 1889
  • Und die Vögel singen nicht mehr
Re: Provincial Traits
« Reply #16 on: November 30, 2007, 11:24:12 PM »
One suggestion on Demilancers.  By definition, "demi" means half.  I would allow the Demilancers to carry a single pistol and a spear.  This also is consistant with the Demilancers as described in the "Paths of the Dead"

That was a good book.

It would make them an closer to the pistoliers of the 6th edition which could help break units or even take smaller units on their own. If we had a demilance unit I would use it everytime.
Happiness never decreases by being shared.
 -The Buddha

An act of kindness surpasses a thousand prayers
 -Sa'di

Offline Wyzer1

  • Posts: 3479
  • ^My Pic - Stuff I say ->
Re: Provincial Traits
« Reply #17 on: November 30, 2007, 11:25:56 PM »
I love this idea!

One suggestion when designing which provinces get what: Make the disadvantages a slightly worse trade-off than the advantages, that way off-site opponents are more likely to allow them to be used
Long time Wood Elf and Empire player with newly acquired High Elves

Offline Michael W

  • Posts: 843
  • In the Name of the Emperor since 2001
Re: Provincial Traits
« Reply #18 on: November 30, 2007, 11:29:04 PM »
Perhaps a couple of additional restrictions can be made to prevent overpowering, e.g. you can't take two advantages that affect the same unit type. That way if you take Elite State Troops (stat increase for a unit of Spearmen or Halberdiers), you can't also take Heavy Plate (heavy armour for Halberdiers). Alternatively, just saying that an individual unit can't benefit from two advantages may also work, e.g. one unit of Halberdiers can be Elite State Troops, and another unit can have Heavy Plate. This also works for Sharpshooters + Long Guns.
I was hoping to at least reduce that (in effectiveness, if not in practice) by making advantages still cost points.  Sure, you can have WS4, Ld8, 5+ save Halberdiers - at 9 points a model.  Same with 12-point Handgunners.  And we are the Empire - we're hard pressed to be a one-trick pony (in fact, we specialize in NOT doing so), so betting all your advantages on one unit or unit type probably isn't the best idea.  The fact is, we are still talking about Halberdiers here.

I also agree with BAWTRM in that Fearsome Reputation should be on a points-per-model basis, since its effectiveness will increase with unit size, so its cost should follow suit too.
Fine by me.  2 points per model, or per "unit strength"?  (ie, Cavalry +4 pts/model, infantry +2 pts/model)

Also, some of these should probably be of the 'must be shown on the model variety'. Fearsome reputation, for example. Human skulls mounted on helmets and necklaces of ears, etc. Likewise with armour upgrades. Hurts the min-max if people have to show it.
Lol.  Since this is all for friendly games anyway, maybe an "it would be highly recommended...your opponent is obligated to smack you upside the head if you don't represent the trait somehow.  And you can't use Heavy Plate if your halberdiers aren't clearly wearing heavier armour than your other infantry."

One suggestion on Demilancers.  By definition, "demi" means half.  I would allow the Demilancers to carry a single pistol and a spear.  This also is consistant with the Demilancers...
Ah-ha!  But a "Lancer" is not a "Lance."  Half a lance would, unarguably, be a spear.  But half a lancer could mean a hard-hitting horseman without all that extra armour and shield business.  And, the more I look at information about the time period, the more I think that means the latter.  Demilancers, like our old Pistoliers, hit awfully hard...but sneeze at them and they fall like bowling pins.  When someone other than me is bowling.

I might suggest incorporating the rules published in WD 309 (U.S.) for alternate Knightly Orders.
Is that the one?  I've got a hundred WD's on my shelf and I can't seem to find those rules, though I've been looking!  Thanx!
Let them taste Reikland steel!
----------------------------

Offline ant7

  • Posts: 105
Re: Provincial Traits
« Reply #19 on: November 30, 2007, 11:37:09 PM »
I really like the idea and great work on everything you have put together. This is something that should have been in the army book in my opinion. I haven't played fantasy enough to say whether some are overpowered or underpowered so I will not comment there. I am kinda leaning toward set traits for provinces as opposed to random traits but I don't know if that would be too restrictive, I am seriously looking at Ostland and I like the idea for the huntsmen/archers. Also the black powder trait, but maybe that wouldn't appeal to everyone.
Maybe, like the IG codex you could take an already established province and their respective traits or create your own city or regiment and customize them. What about a trait that removes the 0-1 limit on huntsmen? or is that something that is changing the army structure too much. 

Offline Rusty

  • Posts: 48
Re: Provincial Traits
« Reply #20 on: November 30, 2007, 11:41:34 PM »
Perhaps a couple of additional restrictions can be made to prevent overpowering, e.g. you can't take two advantages that affect the same unit type. That way if you take Elite State Troops (stat increase for a unit of Spearmen or Halberdiers), you can't also take Heavy Plate (heavy armour for Halberdiers). Alternatively, just saying that an individual unit can't benefit from two advantages may also work, e.g. one unit of Halberdiers can be Elite State Troops, and another unit can have Heavy Plate. This also works for Sharpshooters + Long Guns.
I was hoping to at least reduce that (in effectiveness, if not in practice) by making advantages still cost points.  Sure, you can have WS4, Ld8, 5+ save Halberdiers - at 9 points a model.  Same with 12-point Handgunners.  And we are the Empire - we're hard pressed to be a one-trick pony (in fact, we specialize in NOT doing so), so betting all your advantages on one unit or unit type probably isn't the best idea.  The fact is, we are still talking about Halberdiers here.
True, and this is probably more of a personal thing: I just wouldn't want my units straying too far from the norm. You're right about the points.

I also agree with BAWTRM in that Fearsome Reputation should be on a points-per-model basis, since its effectiveness will increase with unit size, so its cost should follow suit too.
Fine by me.  2 points per model, or per "unit strength"?  (ie, Cavalry +4 pts/model, infantry +2 pts/model)
I think 2 points per unit strength.

I wonder, would anyone choose to put Fearsome Reputation onto a war machine? Is a 106 points enough for a Great Cannon that needs a leadership test to be charged? :icon_razz:

Damn, I already can't wait to see a finished list of Provinces/traits in the War Room or Library or wherever it would go.
Remember: fluff before you buff.

Offline Michael W

  • Posts: 843
  • In the Name of the Emperor since 2001
Re: Provincial Traits
« Reply #21 on: December 01, 2007, 12:15:04 AM »
I wonder, would anyone choose to put Fearsome Reputation onto a war machine? Is a 106 points enough for a Great Cannon that needs a leadership test to be charged? :icon_razz:
How about combining that with Gunnery School?  158-points for a Fear-causing Engineer and his mighty cannon!

Heavens.  Did I just say "Fear-causing Engineer"?   :blush:
Let them taste Reikland steel!
----------------------------

Offline Rufas the Eccentric

  • The Old Ones
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Re: Provincial Traits
« Reply #22 on: December 01, 2007, 01:20:22 AM »
Why could not GW put the Knightly order rules on their web page?  All they have is Fluff.  Lots of people dont have the White Dwarf from 2005.  And unfortunately, we cant put this on our site without GW's approval.  :eusa_wall:

However, If we can come up with a defined set of these rules, it would be great for Empire v. Empire matches like the Mid Atlantic Bash tomorrow.

OMG! I need to get my sleep.
Sigmar on a sling, the stuff some people come up with. . . .

Offline Michael W

  • Posts: 843
  • In the Name of the Emperor since 2001
Re: Provincial Traits
« Reply #23 on: December 03, 2007, 11:17:38 PM »
Okay.  So, suggestions for Provincial Traits below.

Questions:  How many Traits should an army be allowed to have? (I was thinking 2, but feedback would be good)  Should they be tied together?  (ie, "If you take 'Crusaders' as a Reikland army, then you must also take 'Pomp & Ceremony') 

Any other thoughts?  Should we do something with this? ...   :smile2:  Thanks for the thoughts so far everybody!

 :::cheers::: :::cheers::: :::cheers:::  PIOMT.

The Reikland

* Crusaders, Long Guns, Sharpshooters, Fearsome Reputation, Half-Pikes
* Cultured, Civilized & Reasoned, Pomp & Ceremony, Glorious Expectations, Fresh Recruits

Wissenland
* Specialized Huntsmen, Master Bowmen, Half-Pikes, Demilancers, Veteran Officers
* Little Blackpowder, Superstitious, Poor Province, Small Population, Conscripts

Averland

* Elite State Troops, Demilancer Contingents, Half-Pikes, Fevered Devotion, Long Guns
* Pomp & Ceremony, Glorious Expectations, Overconfident, Superstitious, Inept Commander

Stirland
* Fearsome Reputation, Militia Equipment, Half-Pikes, Specialized Huntsmen, Fevered Devotion
* Conscripts, Poorly Equipped, Poor Province, It Looks Better in the Hall, Few Relics

Talabecland

* Fevered Devotion, Elite State Troops, Heavy Plate, Veteran Officers, Demilancer Contingents
* Small Population, Cultured, Superstitious, Little Blackpowder, Few Relics

Hochland

* Sharpshooters, Long Guns, Master Bowmen, Specialized Huntsmen, Fevered Devotion
* Small Population, Few Relics, Poor Province, Inept Commander, Fresh Recruits

Middenland
* Specialized Huntsmen, Demilancer Contingents, Veteran Officers, Leader of Men, Militia Equipment
* Little Blackpowder, Conscripts, Superstitious, Fresh Recruits, It Looks Better in the Hall

Nordland
* Sharpshooters, Master Bowmen, Militia Equipment, Veteran Officers, Leader of Men
* Conscripts, Poorly Equipped, Superstitious, Small Population, Few Relics

Ostland
* Master Bowmen, Specialized Huntsmen, Fearsome Reputation, Veteran Officers, Demilancer Contingents
* Little Blackpowder, Poorly Equipped, Poor Province, Inept Commander, Cheap Quartermaster

The Ostermark
* Heavy Plate, Master Bowmen, Elite State Troops, Leader of Men, Crusaders
* Fresh Recruits, Small Population, Overconfident, Few Relics, Small Population

Altdorf
* Elite State Troops, Militia Equipment, Leader of Men, Gunnery School, Sharpshooters
* Civilized & Reasoned, Pomp & Ceremony, Cultured, Overconfident, It Looks Better in the Hall

Nuln

* Sharpshooters, Long Guns, Gunnery School, Half-Pikes, Demilancer Contingents
* Superstitious, It Looks Better in the Hall, Overconfident, Cultured, Fresh Recruits

Middenheim
* Crusaders, Fearsome Reputation, Demilancer Contingents, Leader of Men, Veteran Officers
* Little Blackpowder, Glorious Expectations, Conscripts, Superstitious, Fresh Recruits

Talabheim
* Elite State Troops, Fearsome Reputation, Demilancer Contingents, Militia Equipment, Gunnery School
* Cultured, Few Relics, Pomp & Ceremony, Overconfident, Inept Commander

Sudenland
* Half-Pikes, Demilancer Contingents, Veteran Officers, Specialized Huntsmen, Militia Equipment
* Small Population, Cheap Quartermaster, Little Gunpowder, Poorly Equipped, Glorious Expectations

Marienburg

* Crusaders, Sharpshooters, Militia Equipment, Gunnery School, Fearsome Reputation
* Poorly Equipped, Inept Commander, Pomp & Ceremony, Civilized & Reasoned, It Looks Better in the Hall

Let them taste Reikland steel!
----------------------------

Offline Karl Voss of Averland

  • Posts: 4729
  • Captain of Loningbruck
Re: Provincial Traits
« Reply #24 on: December 04, 2007, 12:36:40 AM »
Best. Post. Ever.

I can't really judge other provinces, so I'll judge the one I know - Averland. Hopefully other people knowledgeable on fluff throughout the empire will add in their comments for their provinces.

Quote
Averland
* Elite State Troops, Demilancer Contingents, Half-Pikes, Fevered Devotion, Long Guns
* Pomp & Ceremony, Glorious Expectations, Overconfident, Superstitious, Inept Commander

Advantages
*Elite State Troops, Demilancer Contingents, and Half pikes are great, perfect for the province
*Fevered Devotion doesn't sound much like Averland to me, as the southern provinces are more "civilized" so Flagellants are more rare (more common in the north like Middenland). I would exchange this for Militia Equipment as Averland is wealthier and could outfit militia with better equipment.
*Long Guns sounds fine for Averland, as there wealth and proximity to Nuln would allow this.

Disadvantages
*Pomp & Ceremony- Fits Averland well. This rule only applies to parent units correct?
*Glorious Expectations- Again, good for Averland's fine horsemen.
*Overconfident- I would think that Averland is indeed Overconfident. I guess the best way to simulate this would be the -1 on Leadership.
*Superstitious- The people of Averland are Superstitious so the limits on Wizards fit well
*Inept Commander- I see no rules for this above (opposite of leader of men)? Being bordered by Blackfire pass, Averland will have good generals leading her armies- but not "leaders of men". I would apply Cultured instead as Averland shares traits with Reikland and Altdorf.

I just finished reading "Sigmar's Heirs" and am surprised how accurate you are and perfectly balanced the Advantages and Disadvantages.

Amazing Job!!!!  :eusa_clap:

Someone contact GW and have them put this in the back of the next empire book, like the space marines have the custom chapter creator. This would be amazing

~Karl Voss
« Last Edit: December 04, 2007, 03:46:48 AM by Karl Voss of Averland »
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