Topic: Mortar Metagaming?

[Twiggle]

So I was playing against some friends the Other day ( 2000 pts game, they had orcs and wood elves at 1000 each) and I had 2 rocket batteries and a mortar ( never play them so ... Why not I thought). To my great satisfaction, they deployed all of there troops on one side and they tried the "refused flank tactic". But, the orc player deployed a line of 20 goblin archers in front of his 2 regiments with general and great banner, his chariot and trolls. He claimed that by doing so, I couldn't try to aim his orcs, only the goblins. Then we entered a long debate...

First off, I told him that in the case of a cannon, yes he'd be right. But even at that, orcs are 6f 5 ,if not , more, and goblins maybe 4 feet if I'm REALLY generous. They may block line of sight for archers or musketeers ( in the warhammer world apparently XD) but a mortar ...and even the rockets? They have an arc trajectory. The guy aiming knows there's a big group of orcs behind the goblins, and being an artillery crewman, he wants to aim towards the middle of his enemies forces, right?

I didn't want to metagame, but hell NOBODY( not even in warhammer) is dumb enough to not guess , in this case, that an orc army is behind a thiner-then-paper line of goblin archers ( that, by the way, didn't have any fanatics XD and it took him 5 rounds just to get to base contact because of them XD)

I pounded him the whole way ( which hasn't as fruitful as I thought it would be, thanks to the amazing accuracy of the rockets)

[t12161991]

Well... I hate to break it too you... but... he's right. Unless you are on a hill. In which case he's wrong.

[Twiggle]

So I was supposed to try and aim for his goblins... hoping that they would hit orcs? ... I guess your right. But it's the kind of thing that is so illogical that on the flow of the moment my mind refuses to accept.

v.8 correction I hope.

[Marwynn]

By the rules he's right. Of course, these aren't exactly precision weapons. Aim a little closer than you would normally. I mean, the warmachine crews aren't stupid, they can see the orcs behind the gobbos, they just can't aim at them.

[WallyTWest]

This topic makes my ears twitch! In my humble opinion the above ruling is crap.

WHAB 1E, P. 10, 'Be Prepared to Improvise', Jervis Johnson

"We cant possibly give rules to cover every circumstance. Nor would we want to try. Players should feel free to invent and improvise..."

Guess weapons are exactly that, a guess. A guess is not targeted, it only has a vector. Therefore he can not dictate at what you aim. In these situations we have used house rules.

House Rule Solutions (That I have used)
Mortars- Roll 2 scatter die, your oponent may choose the result.
(Prefered solution, causes mortars to be in-acurate but a good rule for bombing fortifications and giving covering troops a purpose.)
Cannnons- Roll the second misfire die twice, your oponent may choose the result.
(Again a prefered solution, allows you to target the cannon strike but prevents it from being very deadly when shielding troops prevent line of sight.)

[CaptScott]

You can't target units you can't see, plain and simple.  There might not be a unit behind those gobbos afterall, or the unit could be a long way behind, or close to it, or behind to the left, behind to the right...  The fact is if your actively targeting the unseen unit (centering the aim on the orcs, and guessing to hit them) then your pushing the rules to far.
(imho)

 

[Jimmy Invictus]

Fraid everyone is right: you do have to target units you have a LOS to, but considering (at least in my experience) the tendencies for Helstorms to be wildly inaccurate, you're better off targeting units you can trace a LOS to in the general vicinity of the area-not the unit-you wish to hit. Consider the following: you have two units of Orcs side by side screened by a line of goblin archers-you must target the Goblins but your rocket barrages are going to hit somewhere in that general vicinity based on the vagaries of the artillery dice. You are just as likely to hit the Orc units (or blow the hell out of some innocent hedges!) as the goblin unit so in practice this isn't really an issue.

I don't use mortars, only Helstorms. I'm sure mortars aren't quite as random but Helstorms make up for their randomness with their template and their strength. Remember: target areas, not units, and you'll be a happier camper! 

[sniperjolly]

yea, helstorms are fun... you just point them at some orcs, skaven or annother horde army and let them fly... they won't hit what your aiming for, but they'll hit something mortars, however, seem to be pretty unforgiving, from my (rather limeted) experince

[phillyt]

CAPTSCOTT!  You live!!

 

Back the question.  Unless you are a large target, you cannot be shot at over interveneing troops unless the shooter is on a hil.  Don't be a dick and overguess.  Thats for sally players who are too cowardly to smash what they can see and want to smash what they cannot.

Phil

[Siberius]

Maybe the confusion is because back in the day, didn't mortars used to not require line of sight in the same way as cannons?

It's a vague and confused recollection, but there is something there on the edge of my memory...

[rufus sparkfire]

I find it much easier to hit things with rocket launchers than mortars, because I always guess short.

Maybe the confusion is because back in the day, didn't mortars used to not require line of sight in the same way as cannons?

No. They were once inexplicably overpriced stone throwers though (4th edition). 

Plus, cannons do need line of sight. 

[Lord Tilioth]

Well i would have to say your friend is technically right if you were not on the high ground you can't shoot his troops but there is a way around every rule....say you'll shoot the goblins and add on inches so you can pound his orcs  they can't make your guess for you so wahla! you win

[Siberius]

Sorry, I phrased the sentence wrong. I know cannons need line of sight  .

I just remember seeing some overcomplicated tactical article in White Dwarf... man, if only I knew where it was...

[Warboss Niblet]

Its not like a goblin screen is hard to panic anyway.  Even if its on the generals LD its not hard to do enough casualties in one round of decent shooting to make the screen ineffective.

[Lord Tilioth]

that true blast them away and wow..nothing left or they lost so much they panic hopefully lose LD test and flee into the orcs dieing and causing panic

[McKnight]

Goblins dont cause panic in orcs.

[Lord Tilioth]

oh lol sorry i haven't played orcs in years 

[Hauptmann Tim]

If he places his orcs very close to the goblins shoot on the goblins and forget some of the extra inches for the jumping cannonball, so that the cannonball hits on the gobbos and jumps into the orcs.
Or charge the goblins with something small an weak (huntsmen!) and use his screen as a big barricade for his big units.

sincerely
Tim

[phillyt]

To all of you that are suggesting purposefully overguessing:

Die.

Phil

[Uryens de Crux]

To all of you that are suggesting purposefully overguessing:

Die.

Phil

Indeed.

Just dont do it. It is cheating.

[sniperjolly]

I think that as long as you intend to hit bouth units, there is no problem with it. I guess thats my twisted sense of morality ar work.

[Folken]

Meh, my group said that they could aim rocks at my BsB behind my archer screen specifically as he is mounted waving a big flag.  They lost all their rights to generous guesses especially if I have a trooper who can report in the whereabouts of juicy targets.  Its rare my mortar doesn't have a target to go with already when I deploy it.

[phillyt]

You can't hit both units.  You can only hit the front one.  IF you scatter into the other, thats another story.

Phil

[sniperjolly]

... with a cannon I mean. I thought you were addressing this post...

If he places his orcs very close to the goblins shoot on the goblins and forget some of the extra inches for the jumping cannonball, so that the cannonball hits on the gobbos and jumps into the orcs.

[Endgame]

To all of you that are suggesting purposefully overguessing:

Die.

Phil

That rather extreme.  All overguessing is, is another reason all guess weapons should be removed from the game.  If you really want to force someone to follow the targeting rules, ditch the ability to overguess.  Since guess ranges weapons exist in the game, and overguessing is an obvious way to use the rules, I'd think there shouldn't be much problem with it.

If one unit is screening another unit 3" back, how would you ever prove that someone was overguessing anyway?