Topic: Mortar Metagaming?

[phillyt]

I would know.

And you heart would know.

Your heart.

 

Phil

[WallyTWest]

To all of you that are suggesting purposefully overguessing:

Die.

Phil

Despite its intended audience... That’s an awful statement and does not bellong on this forum.

[Archaon]

To all of you that are suggesting purposefully overguessing:

Die.

Phil

That rather extreme.  All overguessing is, is another reason all guess weapons should be removed from the game.  If you really want to force someone to follow the targeting rules, ditch the ability to overguess.  Since guess ranges weapons exist in the game, and overguessing is an obvious way to use the rules, I'd think there shouldn't be much problem with it.

If one unit is screening another unit 3" back, how would you ever prove that someone was overguessing anyway?

I totally disagree with all the naysayers about overguessing with artillery weapons. I've experienced it on both sides and I just plain do not see the argument against it. Ruleswise it is perfectly legal I think it is a very viable tactic. Fluffwise it is historically accurate for cannonballs to target commanders and to be selective with artillery fire.

[Lord Tilioth]

ok phil that was very low and immature....to say just go die isn't right for one but seriously if he wants to play cheap and use goblins which are like 1 point (exagerration) and shield better guys thats as cheap to me as overguessing 3-5 inches....and guessing weapons make fantasy fantasy.....withoutt guess weapons it's like 40k because in fantasy medieval times their weapons aren't accurate or reliable so there has to be guessing and everyone does something cheap so because you don't like the prospect of over guessing a few inches maybe you should re-read your post and think about what you just said

[Jimmy Invictus]

Whoah Tigers! I'm sure Phil was joking!

[Shadowlord]

Despite its intended audience... That’s an awful statement and does not bellong on this forum.

Nor lack of humor...

I agree with PhillyT about the overguessing. I am not ready to go to jail yet to the die part will have to be his solely.

 

[Siberius]

I think part of the problem is that the thing Philly seemed to be responding to was using a cannonball to hit both the front unit and the unit behind which is not only fair, it is what they are meant for!

But I'm thinking that what he was actually talking about was the over-guessing with the weapon (mortar or cannon - though with the bounce factor on cannon it is harder to tell when someone is purposefully doing it unless they are really obvious) so that you don't even hit the first unit. Now that's not so cool.

And I am sure he means that he hopes your army dies in the WH world, not you personally  .

[Sig]

Actually back in the day, overguessing was explained as a perfectly legitimate way of using stone throwers. This is going back a bit, but it's explained in Chronicles of War p15 by Rick Priestly. There's diagrams and everything. Some players might have hangovers from that, I know that I thought it was still legal because I hadn't read the warmachine rules in subsequent editions. The basic idea was that you could see the enemy army advancing and you were choosing to target the back of his line despite not strictly being able to see what was there.

These days I'm pretty sure you can't do it, though I still haven't bothered reading the new rules. It's a bit shit when it's midget goblins supposedly blocking LOS by standing in front of massive hulking orcs but that guy is right, despite probably being a bit of a dickhead.

Don't do it. Though personally I think it should be allowed.

[phillyt]

You kids need thicker skin.

I don;t have an issue with cannons, they are made toi bounce through units.

I was talking about mortars and other arcing shot items.  Back in the day, if a crew member could see something, then it could be shot at.  Not, warmachines need line of sight.  If you cannot draw line of sight to a target, you cannot shoot it.  Plan and simple.  So no Archaon, it is not perfectly legal to fire at units the warmachine cannot see.

Phil

[warhammerlord_soth]

I'm fine with "slight overguessing", say maximum 3 inches...

Overguessing by say 10 inch should deserve capital punishment.

[phillyt]

Well, in fairness, nobody would be able to know when someone has over guessed by anything less than 6" unless they were a guessing god, like myself.

But the cases were someone is overguessing are generally fairly obvious to the trained eye, like when they are lining up their shot in a way not to maximize their hits on the target unit but rather to line with a unit behind it...

Phil

[Kaptajn_Congoboy]

The whining about overguessing sounds extremely odd to me. People are allowed to use dicey and "unrealistic" (always a tricky word in fantasy gaming) meat shield tactics (no way in hell a unit of Night Goblins completely obscure a unit of Black Orcs behind, but according to the rules, they do) but people are not allowed to use a perfectly, rules-wise, legal tactic to hit said Black Orcs because it is "cheating"?

[phillyt]

Again, I don't know where this mispreception that it is legal came from but you MUST be able to draw line of sight from the shooting object, either a unit or the barrel of the warmachine, to the target you are shooting at.  If line of sight cannot be drawn, the target is not legal.  Simple as that.

As for night goblins blocking black orcs, the idea is that as they move accross the field, they are kicking up dust, their spears are in the way, and they block enough line of sight that no clear shots can be taken at the orcs who are behind them. What would make sense to you, you need to be exactly the same height as the shielded unit to block line of sight? 

Phil

[Von Breden]

To all of you that are suggesting purposefully overguessing:

Die.

Phil

The only time I did that I was playing with my O&G, and my (proxied) Doom Diver slew my Giant, who was in combat with a bunch of Tzeentch Horrors. That day I learned that the dice gods immediately punish cheating.

[Mathi Alfblut]

Indeed, you MUST see what you shoot at. Period. This is WHFB, not 40K. In 40K, that is more close to modern warfare, the concept of indirect fire exist. However, indirect fire was not a concept back in time and the Warhammer fantasy rules reflect that!

As for screening your harder troops with lighter or expendable ones, THAT has been done since the dawn of time almost. It is standard tactics. And for greenskins it is a fluff tactic.
Also, it is called attacking in waves, another well-known tactic.

It is also about sense. 6th ed. had restrictions on what you could fire at based on the proximity to the target, just like 4th ed 40K. Now, it has been lifted there too, replaced with a models eye view rule of shooting, meaning there is few places where you can hide, but the cover saves have gone up in accordance.

Warhammer is still more abstract. And that is bloody good. Accept that. You CANT see what is beyond the front units clearly. Dust, spearpoints, tunnelvision etc works against that. You must either be on a hill OR the units behind better be a big ugly dragon or similar that you simply cannot avoid to see.
And who knows, those orcsies my be hunkering down abit, using the gobbos as a way of getting at your cowardly warmachines. And gobbos are meant to be used like that.

[Sig]

Like I said, it used to be legal, which is a good reason why some people will think it still is. There is no argument - it was legal, plain and simple. Now it's not. I prefer the old way but as the game has rules, preferences don't matter and the simple answer is no.

[Kaptajn_Congoboy]

So it is illegal to fire at a target and purposefully overguess it, hitting something behind it instead?

Where does that come from in the rules? "Trying to guess the range as accurately as possible"?

[Mathi Alfblut]

YES!
That and the fact you CANNOT fire on something you cannot see.

[phillyt]

Its right in the main warmachine rules.  A warmachine must be able to draw line of sight from the machine to the target.

Phil

[Victor]

My goodness ... I wish I had problems like this .........

[Siberius]

Wahey, so I was right. It did used to be legal and they did write an article about it. 

It's always nice when you find your brain isn't totally melted. 

[Kaptajn_Congoboy]

Its right in the main warmachine rules.  A warmachine must be able to draw line of sight from the machine to the target.

Phil

But the target is the model in front, which you have LOS to....you're just overguessing. That would mean that if you overguess without intending to and hit something behind, the shot is cancelled? That sounds absurd.

Damn, I remember why I gave up GW and their inability to write concise rules...

Ah well, if that is how it is...

[Obi]

Overguessing is absolutely lame. Anybody that overguesses should be removed from the game, not the artillery weapons. You can, however, guess at the line in front of the unit you want to hit and hope it scatters past that. (Or, with a cannon, it bounces ten inches). That is legal, and the way to go.

Everytime you overguess, your soul dies a little. Just like with special characters.

I find it much easier to hit things with rocket launchers than mortars, because I always guess short.

Well, I remember one certain 24" guess, that was, if anything, perfect in almost every way.

[ZeroTwentythree]

So if I fire at a unit of 25 guys (5 wide by 5 deep) and it's very obviously 16" to the front rank, if I guess 18" so that I can hit the center of the unit and max out on the number of guys under the template, that's cheesy because I can't actually see those back ranks?

 

[phillyt]

But the target is the model in front, which you have LOS to....you're just overguessing. That would mean that if you overguess without intending to and hit something behind, the shot is cancelled? That sounds absurd.

You can see the front rank, you can see the unit.  If you see a part of the unit, you can shoot the unit.  You do not only need to target the models you can see, you can hit any part of the unit once it is spotted.

Damn, I remember why I gave up GW and their inability to write concise rules...

What can be clearer than "You cannot shot a unit your warmachine cannot see"?

Phil