Topic: Mortar Metagaming?

[Mathi Alfblut]

Probably not, Philly. I fail to see what Kaptajn have problems with... I guess he objects to the fact that you cannot know totally for sure that your opponent was deliberately overguessing rather than just being crap at ranges. But it should become clear during the game.
So he objects because you cannot strictly enforce the rule if you face an overguesser.

The thing is, Kaptajn, it is a rule that also take into account that a gamer should not be a dick. Infact, the rule is based on you being an honest person and having a conscience. Not your opponent, but you yourself. It is a rule that primarily is meant to be enforce by onceself. It is rather simple, because it do not want to distract the players from the battle.
It assumes you are a nice guy and not a cheater. A nice guy does not think "Wohaa, that is openended. I can use that to my advantage!" but a cheater and unsporty fellow thinks that way. He just wanna win and do not give a fuck about your feelings. He is not a Warhammer player and should stick to chess or something. He misuses the thruts the game developers have put in the players to make sure both are having a good time.

IF you deliberately overguess, you are NOT targetting the unit you aim for. Simple as that. It does not matter what you say, or where you claim to aim. If you do that, but overguess hoping to hit something else, you are a cheat and a fraud and would deserve my blunt viking sword on the head or over yer buttocks!

[Kaptajn_Congoboy]

I like consistent and clear rules with little room for interpretation and open-endedness. It is quite possible to write such rules. That's all there is too it. Unless there is some extensive errata not in the rulebook, there doesn't appear to be anything in the 7th edition that prevents you from overshooting with cannon and stone throwers/mortars as long as you nominate a target in LOS. I do get that this is considered bad sportsmanship, and I don't have a problem with that.

Mathi, a headshot would take you out of the match (unless we're doing Huscarl, of course, in which case good luck) and I don't go down to runners or kissy-killls much these days  . Which group are you with?

[Lord Tilioth]

ok....so i got a question my friend is horrible at guessing range in 40k before the new rules he would miss everytime almost he hit more when he scattered into a unit then landing on them...so what about him? say goblins are 20 inches away and 1 inch behind their last rnak the orcs are lined up what if he guessed 26 inchs....you just going to be like oh your shot is cancelled and void hahaha i am a dick of a gamer who won't let your shot count? no...Mathi Alfblut is right it's more like if the shooter wants to be gay and a dick he can be or he can be like oh i will be honest and humble and shoot at something not worth shooting at....

this game is a competition to destroy your enemy and become a mastermind tactician...me and my friends love this game and have a blast but we don't bend over and take it in our arse's just so a complainer who is losing a game can get his way....

most of you can't grasp this concept i know i'm sorry your to whatever you are....but the game was made to well lets be honest to be a game and what are games about?....proving your better and winning it's a competition just like football....you don't see a college football coach go ok we won't do a reverse play because that would be tricky and low handed and we want to make sure they can tackle us....

hahaha seriously?

i understand it's not right i understand the rule says only shoot what you can see but if you overguess there is no way to prove you shot wrongly...next time i underguess well shoot...i missed my target lets add on a few inches!?!?....sounds fair to me....

no you see you can be a jerk and overguess but in reality there is no way to stop that they are guess weapons for a reason the most you can do other than complain and show how unsportsman like YOU!!! ARE!!! is take it like a man and be like fine you want to play dirty do it i will play honestly and open, when you do this....

then...then you become the real man!

[phillyt]

That whole post needs a capital letter somewhere in it to be coherent.

You know when someone overguesses because they suck and when they do it because they meant to.  You just know it.  Think back, 90% of the time you knew it when it happened.  Lacking a referee, you need to call cheating when you see it.  If you are unwilling to, let it go.  The scatter/guess rules are fine and aren't poorly written to the point of not working, they are just a tad open ended because they rely on player input rather than just naming a target and rolling a dice.

Phil

[Mathi Alfblut]

Oh... can I take the ear protection of, Lord Tilioth?

Firstly, Warhammer is not really designed like you describe. How runs the most important rule in Warhammer? The number one rule players should abide with all the time, if you really want to follow GW:s rules. Still, it is possibly the rule people breaks the most.
Well, I await your answer.

While doing that, I will talk to Kaptajn:
A headshot delivered with a mace will take anyone out of the match, thanks. And yes, I prefer Housecarl over normal re-enactment fighting, since I really do medieval mostly, and then, people had helmets anyway. And I would prefer it doing migration period too, that is closer to the viking fighting when it comes to the general kit of the combattants. Despite that, I prefer the whole body as target, since it does not favour an unrealistic fighting style and does to much favour to the swords or axe visavi the spear.

So what do you say? If not Housecarl, Norwegian medieval re-enactment fighting rules, with upper arms and cutting spears please.

Oh, and at the moment I am not training that much, but I trained together with the vikings in Gothenburg before. Now we are going to start some Housecarl and medieval re-enactment training in our own group, Jacobs Ledung.

[Kaptajn_Congoboy]

To clarify further, my need for precice rulings probably comes from my Warmachine/Hordes playing these last two years.

So what do you say? If not Housecarl, Norwegian medieval re-enactment fighting rules, with upper arms and cutting spears please.

Since I am one of the original Norwegian reenactment fighting guys, yes please. I'm with Kongshirden 1308 and Gråsida.

Maces don't work properly in reenactment fighting, sadly.

[Warlord]

most of you can't grasp this concept i know i'm sorry your to whatever you are....but the game was made to well lets be honest to be a game and what are games about?....proving your better and winning it's a competition just like football....you don't see a college football coach go ok we won't do a reverse play because that would be tricky and low handed and we want to make sure they can tackle us....

I thought games were about having fun

[ZeroTwentythree]

I thought games were about having fun

Um, no. They are about crushing your enemies, seeing them driven before you, and hearing the lamentations of their women.

[Lord Tilioth]

Games are for fun, did anyone see that in my last post? apparently not....Maybe i stressed the whole it's about competition thing to much...Well it's about winning to me and my friends at least

Mathi,
To have fun above all else thats the rule it's in the first few pages of the rule book i'm not stupid...but thanks for your concern...

Back to the rest,
games are about having fun, and dominating...

Phil,no comment be more poilite seriously i am tired i work 8 hour shifts after school for 8 hours and today i pulled a double so i pretty much worked all day though i managed a few breaks and hey that was me yesterday too...so yeah i'm tired and puncuation doesnt matter sorry

[sniperjolly]

I thought games were about having fun

Um, no. They are about crushing your enemies, seeing them driven before you, and hearing the lamentations of their women.

naw, thats whats best in life!
I think games are about having fun, I have crushed small children underneath my boot with swift harshness, but got no real satisfaction from it...

[Lord Tilioth]

sniper but that is not fun at all....when i verse little kids i help them out and encourage them to play to have fun....i am talking about people your own age who are your close friends....it becomes a competition then when i verse random people at GW or especially little kids who are trying to learn i might even make stupid mistakes to get them pumped and wanting to play more...i don't go and walk all over them lol

you made your point for sure

[Mathi Alfblut]

Sorry Kaptajn and Tilioth for my earlier haughty and arrogant tone. I was not in my best condition and really tired.
I realize that some find fun in the competitive side, and if you and your friend are in agreement, then you are doing it right, Tilioth. I merely want to say that it is not necessarily the norm among players.
I play Warhammer in fluffy competitive mode. Yes, I like to win, but I do not want to go cutthroat to do it. My friend was not really cutthroat before, but he suddenly became more cutthroat when he got the new VC books. But it is partially because he fails to see the huge increase of power in the book and see huge among of magic as necessary to play at all now.
My reasonably competitive but also themed WE list suddenly became mediocre against him.

But in the end, it is about having fun and a great exiting game for me. I love it when things end around a draw or a hard won minor victory for either, then you usually have had a really tight game down to the finish.

I also select my army based on the units I like, rather than one that I know technically always would be the best. Hence I would rather take Waywatchers over a treeman, for example.
To me, I find it equaly true to find this themed & competitive approach among older persons, like me, instead all getting fully competitive. To me this is a story game, a fantasy game, not a win at all cost.

When I play historical wargames I play to win, as do most other gamers. You want to try and change history or you want to make sure history happens as it should. Then me and my friend play just as you and your friend. Same with Chess or Hnefatafl. But Warhammer is much more for me, since it involves painting nice regiment with personal standard, creating histories for them and their heroes, maybe even recording their great deeds from battle to battle etc...

[cisse]

First of all, Lord Tilioth, learn to use capitals. It's not that hard, many people can manage it, I'm sure you can too.

Tilioth, no-one is saying you shouldn't play to win... But a game is, in the first place, about having fun. Not about winning, winning and winning again. Sure it's a part of it, and the competition in it is what keeps us playing over and over again. We all like to win, after all. And certainly against people with the same mindset, there is no harm in being very competitive - as long as you both have fun.

Also, no-one is saying that a shot that is overguessed and hit something behind the intended target, shouln't count... Of course it does. But on the other hand, itstates in the rules that deliberatly over-guessing is cheating, so, well, don't. If it happens, good for you, but you have to be a bit honest with yourself and not do it on purpose I think. There's really no other way to check it.

ok....so i got a question my friend is horrible at guessing range in 40k before the new rules he would miss everytime almost he hit more when he scattered into a unit then landing on them...so what about him? say goblins are 20 inches away and 1 inch behind their last rnak the orcs are lined up what if he guessed 26 inchs....you just going to be like oh your shot is cancelled and void hahaha i am a dick of a gamer who won't let your shot count? no...Mathi Alfblut is right it's more like if the shooter wants to be gay and a dick he can be or he can be like oh i will be honest and humble and shoot at something not worth shooting at....

this game is a competition to destroy your enemy and become a mastermind tactician...me and my friends love this game and have a blast but we don't bend over and take it in our arse's just so a complainer who is losing a game can get his way....

most of you can't grasp this concept i know i'm sorry your to whatever you are....but the game was made to well lets be honest to be a game and what are games about?....proving your better and winning it's a competition just like football....you don't see a college football coach go ok we won't do a reverse play because that would be tricky and low handed and we want to make sure they can tackle us....

hahaha seriously?

i understand it's not right i understand the rule says only shoot what you can see but if you overguess there is no way to prove you shot wrongly...next time i underguess well shoot...i missed my target lets add on a few inches!?!?....sounds fair to me....

no you see you can be a jerk and overguess but in reality there is no way to stop that they are guess weapons for a reason the most you can do other than complain and show how unsportsman like YOU!!! ARE!!! is take it like a man and be like fine you want to play dirty do it i will play honestly and open, when you do this....

then...then you become the real man!

[Lord Tilioth]

Mathi it's ok don't worry about it i myself was having a bad day and got aggravated....going cut throat eh? lol....It's not really that bad but my friends have always played dirty cheap and low to just win, So i guess i have taken after them to win in warhammer...but in my defense i try to have fun...

So do we have a conclusion?

Overshoot is technically cheating though technically can't be stopped, but it's more like a moral situation. Try not to do it, and avoid it if you can but if it happens by accident well mistakes do happen......

Also i think we finally came down to realize you can't have fun without some competitiveness because it drives us, BUT Warhammer is about FUN!!!! in the end, and if i had to choose between either stomping on a little kid trying to learn to get another victory, Or helping him out cracking jokes and showing him a good time...well i think you all know what we all would do....

[Von Breden]

CRUSH!!


Because I suck so hard in Warhammer that I couldn't teach him how to roll a die .

[rufus sparkfire]

puncuation doesnt matter

It does if you want people to take your posts seriously. And if you want to keep posting on this forum.

[Duce]

puncuation doesnt matter

It does if you want people to take your posts seriously. And if you want to keep posting on this forum.

Heed his words, for he was one of the origional fellowship before they found hobbits cost less to feed.

its true story

[rufus sparkfire]

That's right.

[Shadowlord]

PhillyT says die, I say ban him!

(or suffer the consequences from pervert Santa)

[Lord Etharion]

So if I fire at a unit of 25 guys (5 wide by 5 deep) and it's very obviously 16" to the front rank, if I guess 18" so that I can hit the center of the unit and max out on the number of guys under the template, that's cheesy because I can't actually see those back ranks?

I'd really like to see an answer to this, and if it is okay to do that how, is it different from overguessing to hit a screening unit.

[rufus sparkfire]

Wasn't there a rule in 6th edition that stone throwers were allowed to overguess, so long as they had line of sight to at least one unit in the direction of fire? I think it's what Siberius was alluding to on the first page of this thread, but I forgot about it until now. Is that still there? Although, someone may have mentioned that already, since I haven't read the second page at all.

Still, I don't think shooting over a screening unit is bad. Mortars aren't much good anyway, so who cares?

[Mathi Alfblut]

Well, maybe not.

However, stop crying ban. Give the fellow a wee break! Philly and Shadow, have a beer each on my account and go sit over there grumbling! 

[rufus sparkfire]

stop crying ban. Give the fellow a wee break!

Give who a break? PhillyT? 

[Finlay]

no, tilloth.

capitalisation is over rated.

[rufus sparkfire]

On the other hand, it's not difficult to do, and you look like a fool if you appear unable to do it.