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Author Topic: Mortar Metagaming?  (Read 97000 times)

Offline ZeroTwentythree

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Re: Mortar Metagaming?
« Reply #100 on: December 17, 2008, 05:43:06 PM »
Historically, field artillery was a relatively rare bird until the 16th-17th century in Europe. Light torsion-powered bolt throwers appear in roman and medieval times, yes, but even then they were rather thin on the ground. When cannon appeared in the 14th century, it made the occasional appearance in field battles, as at Crecy and Flodden and whatnot, and became increasingly more common.


Two minor points... One is the "new" Burgundian cannons in the 15th century, and Chuck5's bigass artillery train. Or trains, since he kept losing them. Didn't the 15th century Ottomans have piles and piles of cannon, too?

Also, 16th century artillery *is* relevent, since that's the period that's, uh... "inspired" the Empire army in the first place.

In any case, WFB mixes eras and at some point made some attempt to model some real world physics into the rules in the early days, which is where the cannon and mortar came from. Granted, doom divers, pigeon bombs and robo-horses have sort of thrown that all out the window... but I'm not sure the cannon and mortar rules are that far in fantasy-land. Everything in the game gets abstracted to a certain extent. This is then tempered with tweaks to balance the rules within the game. I remember when artillery could fire indirectly. I though that was fine. They changed the rules at some point, I'm fine with that. It's a game. Instead of complaining about having to shoot at a goblin screen, I'll either find a hill, find a better target, or find a different way to deal with the situation as it's happening.



Oh, and thanks Captain Tineal, Perambulator and Warlord.  :lol:

After typing that I drew out plans for a T-Shirt including that reference. I'd like to make one like this:






Offline Aldaris

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Re: Mortar Metagaming?
« Reply #101 on: December 17, 2008, 05:50:02 PM »
Also, 16th century artillery *is* relevent, since that's the period that's, uh... "inspired" the Empire army in the first place.
One minor correction of sorts: The landsknecht era is more like the early 17. century.

Offline Mathi Alfblut

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Re: Mortar Metagaming?
« Reply #102 on: December 17, 2008, 05:55:57 PM »
No, the landsknecht era is the 16th century, the early 17th century is the era of the 30 years wars beginnings and it saw the development form the terricos toward the dutch system and to the system developed by Gustav Adolf.
But already in the beginning, the 17th century was about pike and shoot.
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Offline Aldaris

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Re: Mortar Metagaming?
« Reply #103 on: December 17, 2008, 06:40:43 PM »
Oooops! you are right of course! Guess that'll teach me to post quickly while passing through...  :blush:

Offline Captain Tineal

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Re: Mortar Metagaming?
« Reply #104 on: December 17, 2008, 06:55:13 PM »

After typing that I drew out plans for a T-Shirt including that reference. I'd like to make one like this:







That is 6 kinds of awesome.  You win the thread again.
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Offline Perambulator

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Re: Mortar Metagaming?
« Reply #105 on: December 17, 2008, 06:56:39 PM »

After typing that I drew out plans for a T-Shirt including that reference. I'd like to make one like this:







 :eusa_clap: :eusa_clap: :eusa_clap: :eusa_clap:
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Offline Lord Tilioth

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Re: Mortar Metagaming?
« Reply #106 on: December 17, 2008, 07:03:24 PM »
lol yes this topic is way off subject but who cares....i would buy that shirt and wear it to school once a week
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Offline Sig

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Re: Mortar Metagaming?
« Reply #107 on: December 17, 2008, 07:12:44 PM »
This is why my VC army is based on Conan. Love that quote.

Offline warhammerlord_soth

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Re: Mortar Metagaming?
« Reply #108 on: December 17, 2008, 07:22:05 PM »
It becomes even funnier if you check only the bottom box.... No?
Have one  on Midaski's tab.  :::cheers:::
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Offline Lord Tilioth

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Re: Mortar Metagaming?
« Reply #109 on: December 17, 2008, 07:39:58 PM »
lol it does
"To Honor and Glory we march, but death is still inevitable" - Grand Master Lord Tilioth of The Knights of the Golden Realm
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Offline Lord Etharion

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Re: Mortar Metagaming?
« Reply #110 on: December 17, 2008, 07:40:26 PM »
I would buy that shirt.
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Offline t12161991

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Re: Mortar Metagaming?
« Reply #111 on: December 17, 2008, 10:25:54 PM »
I think we're settled then. So who's footing the bill for 1000 odd t-shirts?
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Offline phillyt

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Re: Mortar Metagaming?
« Reply #112 on: December 18, 2008, 01:26:44 AM »
I used to be a teeshirt designer for a silkscreen company.  It is surprisingly affordable.

Phil
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Offline littleboyblues

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Re: Mortar Metagaming?
« Reply #113 on: December 18, 2008, 01:41:32 AM »
How I feel about this is if your shooting a cannon ball at a specific enemy skirmisher 2 inches away guessing 25 inches which accidentally hits the enemy charcter...

I agree go die!

However if you are shoting a mortor or rocket battery at a unit thats give or take 5 inches I would say its fine... if a screen unit is 100 wide and one deep, I'm gonna aim for the area that has something behind it. Incase it drifts your more likely to hit something. I feel this is fine. Because with an artilary dice going between 2 and 10 inches its hard to say which one they were trying to hit.
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Offline t12161991

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Re: Mortar Metagaming?
« Reply #114 on: December 18, 2008, 02:04:08 AM »
I used to be a teeshirt designer for a silkscreen company.  It is surprisingly affordable.

Phil

If we used the same company my school does... $10 per shirt so... $10000!
Grutch:  Careful, someone I know on a forum I visit works for Sony.  He says they aren't to be trusted.

Hail! to the victors valiant
Hail! to the conqu'ring heroes
Hail! Hail! to Michigan
The leaders and best!

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Offline ZeroTwentythree

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Re: Mortar Metagaming?
« Reply #115 on: December 18, 2008, 02:09:11 AM »
While I agree with most of what you say, the big thing for me that Historicals (like FoG) have over Warhammer is the way that troops break.  One round of combat does not normally send a unit running in FoG while it frequently does in Warhammer.  Additionally, you (almost) always have a game in Field of Glory, while in Warhammer, one bad string of terror rolls can send your whole army running without a fight (see Slannesh deamons for more information).


Well, this was done in the name of streamlining the game and making it play faster. In older editions, lost combats resulted in a "push back" of a certain distance (I forget how much), and the winner of the combat got a +1 to hit on the next round of combat. So you could have an actual battle line locked in combat, and hope to push or break through in a spot to take advantage of this. I haven't played FoG, but DBM/DBA/DBR work something like this (as do HotT and Fantasy Rules! as far as fantasy games go.) I remember playing games to 8 turns rather than 6, though, and taking 3 hours -- though we were playing 3000 points at that time.

I think this is why the game has become focused on hammer units/characters and gimmicks that can make the quick kills or breaks without having to worry about battle lines or traditional/historical tactics. Sort of like card games, maybe. The dynamics of this seem to be constantly shifting, though (I guess thats why they call it "dynamics" rather than "statics," heh.) For example the increases in ITP troops, the increae in fear causers, which then leads to a deterioration in the way that many fear causers used to win combats, etc. So yeah, once again, a bit like card games.


Offline phillyt

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Re: Mortar Metagaming?
« Reply #116 on: December 18, 2008, 02:13:13 AM »
Naw.  Shitty Teeshirts are about $2.  The design part is what often costs a little, $100 or so.  It is then all the labor.  If all you want is a single color, which means only one screen (the most expensive part of the thing) it takes about 30 seconds per shirt and only the one screen.  If you have ten shirts on a manual screen printing press, then you can crank them out.  Provided you know the manufacturer, it is a bargin.  I made a few shirts at cost, basically all I had to pay for was the screen itself and the shirt.

I made a few tee shirts which read "Who dilly!  Whose your Philly?" after hours.  The design part was fun, but the guy I worked for was a dick, didn't understand how much a graphic artist was suppoed to be paid, and had a shitty work environment since it was me and 5 of his family members.  A little uncomfortable.  I ended up quiting at the end of the summer and goign back to teaching photohop classes.

Phil
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Offline Kaptajn_Congoboy

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Re: Mortar Metagaming?
« Reply #117 on: December 18, 2008, 05:03:30 AM »
Historically, field artillery was a relatively rare bird until the 16th-17th century in Europe. Light torsion-powered bolt throwers appear in roman and medieval times, yes, but even then they were rather thin on the ground. When cannon appeared in the 14th century, it made the occasional appearance in field battles, as at Crecy and Flodden and whatnot, and became increasingly more common.


Two minor points... One is the "new" Burgundian cannons in the 15th century, and Chuck5's bigass artillery train. Or trains, since he kept losing them. Didn't the 15th century Ottomans have piles and piles of cannon, too?

Also, 16th century artillery *is* relevent, since that's the period that's, uh... "inspired" the Empire army in the first place.

Er, yes, that's why it says "16th-17th centuries" above.

There were piles and piles of cannon from the late 14th century on, but I was talking about FIELD artillery (Artillery trains tend to equal siege artillery) - and of course there was some field artillery, earlier than the 15th century, but it was, as stated, a rare bird.

Offline Mathi Alfblut

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Re: Mortar Metagaming?
« Reply #118 on: December 18, 2008, 07:54:04 AM »
Ah, but I like the push and shove of a battleline. :icon_sad:
My mate also miss it and as he has been with Warhammer a long time missed formation and such things aswell.
I guess that is why I love the idea of core stubborn Eternal guards. Shame that your magic defence suffer if you take them. But my son did not like to see his mighty cavalry charge stalling before two units of Eternal guard.  :engel:

Now, core Greatswords would be so...  :biggriin:
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