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Author Topic: Dogs of War.... 2.0  (Read 17724 times)

Offline Von Kurst

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Re: Dogs of War.... 2.0
« Reply #25 on: February 20, 2009, 01:35:08 AM »
The +1 Strength so rarely actually helps, since Warhammer's armour system grants cavalry such obscene saves (ie, our own knights).  It's nice, but not necessary, against ogres and such.
   I have two reasons for arguing for no strength bonus.  First, it doesn't really matter that often.  Chaos Knights and Blood Knights are going to smash through your pikemen like twigs whether they have that +1 Str or not - as they should.  Against Ogres and such, Pikes deliver enough attacks to overcome such things.  Against more modest cavalry - like Bretonnian, Elven, or Imperial - the mere Defended Obstacle rule already makes pikes very tough, since those guys are now hitting at S3 or 4 instead of 5 or 6 (and the Brets don't get their Lance).  Pikes shouldn't be an unbreakable unit - just a tough nut to crack for non-ultra-elite troops.
  My second reason is mere cost.  At 10 pts per model, pikes right now are brutally expensive.  8 points seems fair for Defended Obstacle and Fight in Four Ranks (and their light armour).  You might even get away with 7 (but I doubt it).  But we need cheaper pikes in order to put them on the field effectively.  When character + Pikes = nearly a quarter of the army, that is WAY to expensive a unit for what it's going to do on the field.  I want their cost down, and that means keeping their abilities down, too.  Or just pretending that they're Dark Elves.   :dry:
First pikes don't get a St bonus against Ogres. The bonus only counts against monsters, cavalry and chariots. Ogres are no longer monsters. They are just Big Things a category that includes monsters...
Second, cost.  The general argument has been for years now that pikes are overpriced for their ability.  I understand that you do not make that argument, but a cursory look at any pike/DoW/Giant thread ought to provide examples of those who do.  :closed-eyes:
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Offline Captain Gerntass

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Re: Dogs of War.... 2.0
« Reply #26 on: February 20, 2009, 09:09:12 PM »
This thread looks right up my street :wink:
In the past I have done my own version of DoW and from what I've seen we've actually done quite a few things the same, but I do have a couple of qualms though. The crossbowmen champion with a repeater crossbow would actualy be a good upgrade option but so would the option of the unit to be equipped with light armour and/or pavises.
Now as for the light cav I actualy made two options, one with light armour, shield and spear and a +1 to the champions A, the other option I gave them light armour and repeater crossbows with the option to replace the repeaters with bows for -x pts whilst the champion got +1 Bs.
The pikemen on the other hand were over priced, hand weapon, pike and light armour for 8 pts with the original rules seemed fine to me, with the option to upgrade to heavy armour for +2 pts was also a good idea, that's what I did anyway, but I also added the option to make them veterans for +3 pts so they got +1 Ws, S & Ld, the option to get full-plate for an additional 2pts and they bacame a special choice.

I'd be more than happy to playtest the list once a full draft has been put together, and if you'd like I could get my versions typed up and PM them to you so you could cross referance them.
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Offline Dannyfave

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Re: Dogs of War.... 2.0
« Reply #27 on: February 20, 2009, 09:19:25 PM »
Also, I think that the ability to make your pike regiments have the front rankers with, hand weapon, shield and light/heavy armor and crossbow wouyld be nice, you get a nice stand and shoot reaction, followed by the 4 ranks atacking with your front rankers having a 4+/3+ save.
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Offline Dunrik

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Re: Dogs of War.... 2.0
« Reply #28 on: February 20, 2009, 09:38:36 PM »
This is looking very interesting! If you need play testing, I will be happy to help (playing it over at ogre stronghold, so that you all can get a better view).

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Offline Valetus

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Re: Dogs of War.... 2.0
« Reply #29 on: February 20, 2009, 11:46:22 PM »
Also, I think that the ability to make your pike regiments have the front rankers with, hand weapon, shield and light/heavy armor and crossbow wouyld be nice, you get a nice stand and shoot reaction, followed by the 4 ranks atacking with your front rankers having a 4+/3+ save.

I remember discussion a few years back on why this rule was removed in certain lists as it made a no-brainer choice between missle and combat when you can simply have both.

I like the idea of introducing handguns but I think they will be chosen more often than crossbows which reduces the flavour of the army. On this line I dont like the idea of normal bows as the list is based on Tilea i.e. italy where they were not commonly used. Some nice ideas are crossbow equiped cavalry and possibly smaller crossbows that were often used from horesback just functioning as a variety of crossbow. I really see horsearchers with normal bows as thematically wrong.

Crossbow infantry should definately have access to the pavise and light armour. The pavise will work easiest as a shield but if you wnat it a bit more complicated try only allowing its use against shooting. All the same dwarf missle troops do not seem unbalanced by thier acccess to shields.

Zweihanders and forlorn hope are very nice ideas and would work well but should probably be dropped on thematic grounds.

Some sort of "fodder" class infantry is definately need but I dont feel halberdiers really cut it, maybe free company as someone suggested and give them access to light armour.

Just a few opinions really...

Offline rufus sparkfire

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Re: Dogs of War.... 2.0
« Reply #30 on: February 20, 2009, 11:56:44 PM »
I'd say the dogs of war list is meant to represent mercenaries from everywhere in the Old World, as well as Araby and whatever else is nearby. It's not supposed to be confined to native Tilean troops, any more than Italian condotta armies were composed of nothing but Italians.

The Tilean city-states will hire anyone and everyone to fight in their armies. In the older fluff, Tilea used to hire vast numbers of Imperial pikemen... presumably that's why we don't have any pikes left in The Empire these days.  :icon_smile:


Quote from: Valetus
The pavise will work easiest as a shield but if you wnat it a bit more complicated try only allowing its use against shooting.

I like +2 save against shooting only, -1 to movement.


Quote from: Valetus
I like the idea of introducing handguns but I think they will be chosen more often than crossbows which reduces the flavour of the army.

I don't think handguns are better than crossbows under the current rules. But in any case, it's easy to add a rule that you can't have more handgunner units than crossbow units in an army.


Quote from: Valetus
I remember discussion a few years back on why this rule was removed in certain lists as it made a no-brainer choice between missle and combat when you can simply have both.

I think it's more the rules issues it causes. Besides, the existing pike/crossbow regiment of renown is arguably a lot weaker than a standard pike unit.
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Offline Uryens de Crux

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Re: Dogs of War.... 2.0
« Reply #31 on: February 21, 2009, 12:02:29 AM »
Make DoW handgunners into skirmish units to represent how few there are in Tilea perhaps?
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Offline offroadfury88

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Re: Dogs of War.... 2.0
« Reply #32 on: February 21, 2009, 01:27:28 AM »
wow, perhaps you guys should just change the name of this topic to "empire.... 2.0" because all the suggestions are just to make the list more like the empire. Hand gunners, free company, greatswords, light cav with strength 4 range attacks.

if you want DoW to be its own list THEN MAKE IT IS OWN LIST! GW's list was better then this because you could make an army from any part of the warhammer world, not from one specific region which you guys seem hell bent on doing.
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Offline rufus sparkfire

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Re: Dogs of War.... 2.0
« Reply #33 on: February 21, 2009, 01:36:51 AM »
you could make an army from any part of the warhammer world, not from one specific region

That's why it should have bows and handguns. Then that would actually be true.
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Offline PhillyT

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Re: Dogs of War.... 2.0
« Reply #34 on: February 21, 2009, 01:40:03 AM »
Offroads point still stands.  If that is your goal, then just add the few things not represented in the EMpire army and be done with it.

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Offline rufus sparkfire

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Re: Dogs of War.... 2.0
« Reply #35 on: February 21, 2009, 01:42:40 AM »
I don't think he was talking about me anyway. And it's not my thread or my project in the first place.  :icon_razz:
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Offline Dannyfave

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Re: Dogs of War.... 2.0
« Reply #36 on: February 21, 2009, 01:58:55 AM »
Also, I think that the ability to make your pike regiments have the front rankers with, hand weapon, shield and light/heavy armor and crossbow wouyld be nice, you get a nice stand and shoot reaction, followed by the 4 ranks atacking with your front rankers having a 4+/3+ save.

I remember discussion a few years back on why this rule was removed in certain lists as it made a no-brainer choice between missle and combat when you can simply have both.

I like the idea of introducing handguns but I think they will be chosen more often than crossbows which reduces the flavour of the army. On this line I dont like the idea of normal bows as the list is based on Tilea i.e. italy where they were not commonly used. Some nice ideas are crossbow equiped cavalry and possibly smaller crossbows that were often used from horesback just functioning as a variety of crossbow. I really see horsearchers with normal bows as thematically wrong.

Crossbow infantry should definately have access to the pavise and light armour. The pavise will work easiest as a shield but if you wnat it a bit more complicated try only allowing its use against shooting. All the same dwarf missle troops do not seem unbalanced by thier acccess to shields.

Zweihanders and forlorn hope are very nice ideas and would work well but should probably be dropped on thematic grounds.

Some sort of "fodder" class infantry is definately need but I dont feel halberdiers really cut it, maybe free company as someone suggested and give them access to light armour.

Just a few opinions really...

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Offline rufus sparkfire

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Re: Dogs of War.... 2.0
« Reply #37 on: February 21, 2009, 02:03:18 AM »
I just miss my dark elf city guard :cry:

I bet they will be back next time the dark elves get an army book.  :icon_smile:
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Offline Dannyfave

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Re: Dogs of War.... 2.0
« Reply #38 on: February 21, 2009, 02:08:21 AM »
I just think it is rad when a spear regiment gets a 4+ save for the fighting rank+ the second rank atacking and a stand and shoot charge reaction..
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Offline Valetus

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Re: Dogs of War.... 2.0
« Reply #39 on: February 21, 2009, 01:14:41 PM »
wow, perhaps you guys should just change the name of this topic to "empire.... 2.0" because all the suggestions are just to make the list more like the empire. Hand gunners, free company, greatswords, light cav with strength 4 range attacks.

if you want DoW to be its own list THEN MAKE IT IS OWN LIST! GW's list was better then this because you could make an army from any part of the warhammer world, not from one specific region which you guys seem hell bent on doing.

You have a very good point, the way this is going it could be better represtented on the normal Empire list. Really it could be achieved by fielding a themed Empire army and using the rare choices to max out on dogs of war units.

Offline Michael W

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Re: Dogs of War.... 2.0
« Reply #40 on: February 21, 2009, 06:06:46 PM »
Hence my suggestion regarding a multi-racial, pure "mercenary" army list that could represent forces from well-nigh anywhere.  I don't think that a Dogs of War list needs to be purely Tilean, especially that simply results in another (somehow, theoretically, different) human Renaissance army.  Tileans in the list, yes - Tileans as the list, no.
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Offline Florian Geyer

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Re: Dogs of War.... 2.0
« Reply #41 on: February 21, 2009, 08:53:55 PM »
Handguns and bows are not purely Empire things. It makes no sense to have pistols but not handguns, as I already said.

I can see no reasonable objection to that.

Well, there are a lot of things not making sense in warhammer. Why doesn't empire armies ever use bolt throwers? Imperial soldiers know how to skirmish and how to use pistols, is it really impossible to teach the men of the empire to combine these two skills. And so on. Personally I'd be most happy with some logical inconsistencies if it gives the DoW 2.0 the feeling of being different rather than modified empire.

That being said, where are the Norse berserkers? Did I miss them or did you (PP) remove them for some reason?
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Offline Midaski

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Re: Dogs of War.... 2.0
« Reply #42 on: February 21, 2009, 10:28:09 PM »
Firstly well done Pete for your attempts.

I've just read this through and already the bickering shows what I feel is the problem.

GW started with RoR way back, and then continued, and then 'invented' DoW to keep the theme going.
The theme was an excuse to make models. They did not give enough thought to their use by every race.

There are two aspects to this as well - the DoW army as a whole, and then what you do with DoW units as a choice for other races.

I feel the problem is you have to start with the 'feel' or 'look' or 'ethos' or whatever you want to call it for mercenaries.
That is what we are talking about - 'mercenaries'. Which means they fight for reward. So before you can validate a troop choice you have to validate how or why it wants a reward.

With Tileans, Estalians, Border Princes, humans from Araby, Cathay, Norsica, Kislev, and even Bretonnia you can justify money/gold. Same with dwarfs and halflings ( they can buy exotic food and spices :icon_wink:)
Ogres already have the fluff, and maybe Orcs could earn teeth ............

Then bringing in the other races gets trickier. If you cannot justify the reward, then for example Skaven would be very awkward - some races may just not qualify.

Maybe you could have good and bad DoW armies - a bad army would not be too far off the 3-part Chaos army we have just moved away from ........... just add some DE (SoC army anyone) and an alliance with the rats, and away you go.



Initially I would suggest that you create an army list of troop types as Pete is trying to do.
That could be based on the fact that these guys are professionals, they would be very aware of weapon technology, and would probably be able to afford it.
Their ranks would boast most of the options available to the rest of the 'world'.

Mercenaries will fight all over the 'world', in all sorts of conditions, so may well carry a variety of weapons.
That would allow multi-upgrade choices for units.

Lastly as individual merc choices for another race, you would have to recost or disallow certain units to certain armies.
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Offline Pistol Pete

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Re: Dogs of War.... 2.0
« Reply #43 on: February 21, 2009, 11:56:12 PM »
Quote
Also, I think that the ability to make your pike regiments have the front rankers with, hand weapon, shield and light/heavy armor and crossbow wouyld be nice, you get a nice stand and shoot reaction, followed by the 4 ranks atacking with your front rankers having a 4+/3+ save.

I've already tinkered with some ideas like this, but I feel "mixed" units like this belong as part of the "regiments of renown" list, not a part of the Dogs of War list.  But rest assured, I do have lots of interesting ideas like this. :icon_mrgreen:

Quote
Zweihanders and forlorn hope are very nice ideas and would work well but should probably be dropped on thematic grounds.

Forlorn hope is not a part of this list.  The Zweihanders are perhaps a bit of a fluff contradiction as zweihander is a german name, and the Tileans are basically itallians.  However, the two handed greatsword goes hand in hand with the pike thematically, and I think it adds a crucial high strength component to the pike formations that allows them to deal with heavier troops where the pikes would otherwise bounce off.  They're not super tough (they're actually kind of squishy) but thematically and gameplay wise I think they're a good fit.  I just need a good italianesque name for them.  Any ideas?

Quote
I like the idea of introducing handguns but I think they will be chosen more often than crossbows which reduces the flavour of the army. On this line I dont like the idea of normal bows as the list is based on Tilea i.e. italy where they were not commonly used. Some nice ideas are crossbow equiped cavalry and possibly smaller crossbows that were often used from horesback just functioning as a variety of crossbow. I really see horsearchers with normal bows as thematically wrong.

Crossbow infantry should definately have access to the pavise and light armour. The pavise will work easiest as a shield but if you wnat it a bit more complicated try only allowing its use against shooting. All the same dwarf missle troops do not seem unbalanced by thier acccess to shields.

I don't think pavises are a great idea for crossbowmen. At 8 points a model, I always struggle to get earn their points back, and I shudder at the idea of making them more expensive.  However, I'll consider this as an option, since so many people want to play with it.  We'll see how it does in playtesting.

I've also decided that crossbows would be neat for light cav, so I'll add that in in the next revision.  No repeater crossbows though.

As far as bows go, remember that DoW light cav are considered to come from all over the world, so you'll have various cultures using different weapons or combinations of weapons.  So bows are certainly reasonable.

Quote
Some sort of "fodder" class infantry is definately need but I dont feel halberdiers really cut it, maybe free company as someone suggested and give them access to light armour.

First of all, the fodder guys are NOT halberdiers.  I gave them the halberd as the default weapon, as I think halberds compliment pikes nicely.  However, they need not be fielded with halberds if you don't want them to.  I wanted to make these guys very bland and boring, so as not to overshadow the pikemen, while still allowing them to serve a useful purpose.  I wanted to address a real weakness of the list without overcompensating for it.  I may sex them them up a bit, but for the early draft I think they're fine.

Quote
I like the idea of introducing handguns but I think they will be chosen more often than crossbows which reduces the flavour of the army.

I've given this some thought.  Because the crossbow is such a "Tilean" weapon, i hate to introduce handguns and dillute that imagery.  What I may do is add a limited amount of handgunners as a regiment of renown or a special choice, or something of that nature.  I'm still tinkering!

Quote
That being said, where are the Norse berserkers? Did I miss them or did you (PP) remove them for some reason?

Don't get me wrong.  I like the Norse marauders, but thematically, I think they were out of place.  I may utilize them in some other manner, but I felt that the other choices I've added are more thematically appropriate for the basic list.  My army list actually has a lot of close combat punch so the marauders should not be missed too much.   :wink:

Quote
I feel the problem is you have to start with the 'feel' or 'look' or 'ethos' or whatever you want to call it for mercenaries.
That is what we are talking about - 'mercenaries'. Which means they fight for reward. So before you can validate a troop choice you have to validate how or why it wants a reward.

With Tileans, Estalians, Border Princes, humans from Araby, Cathay, Norsica, Kislev, and even Bretonnia you can justify money/gold. Same with dwarfs and halflings ( they can buy exotic food and spices icon_wink)
Ogres already have the fluff, and maybe Orcs could earn teeth ............

Then bringing in the other races gets trickier. If you cannot justify the reward, then for example Skaven would be very awkward - some races may just not qualify.

This is the heart of the mercenary issue.  Obviously, it makes very little sense for a skaven army to hire Tilean crossbowmen, for example, so what I am attempting to do is create "race specific" options that will fit in with the armies.  For example, the skaven already operate on a quasi-mercenary level already with thier clan structure.  So skaven mercs would be clan specific "one-off" units of skaven troops rather than human mercenaries... perhaps utilizing skaven units from the experimental lists along with some units of my own design.

These troops will represent specialized units not usually seen on the battlefield.  Not unique, like regiments of renown, but much more rare than the typical rare choice.  These specialty troops will not be a part of the Dogs af war list (because why would Tileans hire a bunch of skeezy ratmen?), but they will exist alongside the list so that these other races will be able to utilize a mercenary system that actually fits in with the existing army.

But this is the last and most difficult step of the process.  I'm hammering out the basic DoW army list at the present.  Mercenaries for hire will be a separate and more complex issue to be addressed in the future.
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Offline rufus sparkfire

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Re: Dogs of War.... 2.0
« Reply #44 on: February 22, 2009, 12:16:19 AM »
Quote
I've also decided that crossbows would be neat for light cav

They aren't. Having used them in the past, they suffer horribly from being unable to move and fire. Their extremely limited firepower in no way makes up for that.

It's better to have mounted crossbowmen use 'light crossbows,' counting as bows.
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Offline offroadfury88

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Re: Dogs of War.... 2.0
« Reply #45 on: February 22, 2009, 01:52:00 AM »
uhg pete! Stay away from your obvious Tilean army! IF you want to make a Tilean then make one, dont use DoW as your excuse!

Norse Murauders would be excellent candidates for a DoW army, they fight fanatically for loot and sail the high seas in long boats. Also whats your fix up with the skirmishing greatswords? It is not a Renaissance army THIS IS NOT EMPIRE!

how many times do we have to say it? Make them something cool like Arabian flachions, or Cathayan dragon warriors with pole axes, some thing to add flavor and a uniqueness to the list. this is a dogs of war army, it draws its ranks form all over the world. If you want handguns, make them Cathayan, if you want fast skirmishers, make them elves who only fight for good armies and dark elves who fight for bad armies. The old world is full of cool areas that are never looked at, Ind with mounted war elephants Nippon with ninjas, norse with long ships and beserkers, arabian camal troops who cause fear in cavalry anything!

come on man, use your frikin imigination
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Offline rufus sparkfire

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Re: Dogs of War.... 2.0
« Reply #46 on: February 22, 2009, 01:56:15 AM »
I agree with Off Road Guy.

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Offline Pistol Pete

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Re: Dogs of War.... 2.0
« Reply #47 on: February 22, 2009, 02:36:15 AM »
Quote
uhg pete! Stay away from your obvious Tilean army! IF you want to make a Tilean then make one, dont use DoW as your excuse!

Norse Murauders would be excellent candidates for a DoW army, they fight fanatically for loot and sail the high seas in long boats. Also whats your fix up with the skirmishing greatswords? It is not a Renaissance army THIS IS NOT EMPIRE!

how many times do we have to say it? Make them something cool like Arabian flachions, or Cathayan dragon warriors with pole axes, some thing to add flavor and a uniqueness to the list. this is a dogs of war army, it draws its ranks form all over the world. If you want handguns, make them Cathayan, if you want fast skirmishers, make them elves who only fight for good armies and dark elves who fight for bad armies. The old world is full of cool areas that are never looked at, Ind with mounted war elephants Nippon with ninjas, norse with long ships and beserkers, arabian camal troops who cause fear in cavalry anything!

come on man, use your frikin imigination

Fluffwise, Dogs of War are primarily Tilean mercenaries, based on the Italian mercenaries of the Renaissance.  The crossbow and pike are the two weapons most associated with them.  I have tried to honor that in this list, and stay true to the source material.  Adding in units from areas of the old world that GW has no intention of exploring would defeat the purpose.   

There are a few non-human choices in the Old DoW list (Halflings, Dwarves, Ogres), but the rest of the list is pretty generic Renaissance type stuff.  Norse marauders (viking berserkers) are the only human unit that does not fit in thematically with the Renaissance vibe, so I have dropped them from the list.  The also have a distinctly "chaos" feel that I felt was wrong for an army that is otherwise very similar to the empire in terms of technology and style of warfare.

Now, if you want to field a unit of fast cavalry camel riders with bow, spear, and shield, you may do so, using the existing rules.  But I'm not going to arbitrarily declare that all DoW light cavalry is Arabian Camel Raiders, because it's silly and limiting.  Rather I am choosing to create a list that allows the player considerable latitude in custom designing units that will suit his vision of what he wishes his army to be. 

Under the rules I'm working on, you'll be able to field units of ninjas, naginata wielding samurai, pirates, mongols, pygmy's or whatever... just pick the models you like, and use the rules that suit those themes the best.  The player will be able to field an army that fits the existing Tilean theme, or he may convert some or all of his army to fit another theme (Ind, Araby, Cathay, etc), or he can mix and match to his heart's content. 

Basically, I'm attempting to build a list with enough flexibility for the player to really go full out exotic if he chooses to, while still preserving the existing Tilean DoW theme that GW has long established.  The basic list is going to be rather mundane and down to earth (but very flexible), while the Mercenary and Regiments of Renown will display some of the more exotic and esoteric units.   
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Offline Captain Gerntass

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Re: Dogs of War.... 2.0
« Reply #48 on: February 22, 2009, 11:55:47 AM »
Actualy the majority of mercenaries aren't Tilean, Tilea is made up of many Baronies, free towns, city states, republicans and every one is vying for power, so every one with the money is hireing mercenaries all the time, thats why Tilea is the breeding grounds for mercs', every one who's either on the wrong side of the law or who want to get some quick cash all go to Tilea, yes there will be Tilean mercs' but they wont be the majority.

On another note, have you considered using the Nationality special rule from the Crisis in Marienburg to represent all the different peoples that would be fighting together, you could even add to the list like adding Cathayen, Ind, DE, ect.
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Offline Pistol Pete

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Re: Dogs of War.... 2.0
« Reply #49 on: February 22, 2009, 04:03:27 PM »
Quote
Actualy the majority of mercenaries aren't Tilean, Tilea is made up of many Baronies, free towns, city states, republicans and every one is vying for power, so every one with the money is hireing mercenaries all the time, thats why Tilea is the breeding grounds for mercs', every one who's either on the wrong side of the law or who want to get some quick cash all go to Tilea, yes there will be Tilean mercs' but they wont be the majority.

True... to a point. 

While mercenaries may come from all over the world, Tileans will still probably be represented in the greatest numbers, simply because Tileans are already there whilst other mercs would have to travel from thier respective countries (in smaller numbers) to reach Tilea.  Similarly, the commanding officers will probably either be Tilean, or fight in a manner that the Tileans will understand (Empire, Brettonain, border princes, etc). 

Tilea is the mercenary capital of the old world, and Tilea is where the DoW setting is derived from. The object of this project is to preserve the strong Tilean flavor of the original models/background/army list while still allowing the player a great degree of latitude to represent outlandish units from around the world.  If you wish to convert up a unit of Arabian Dervishes, and use them as "counts as" troops, using X set of rules, be my guest.  That's why the list is designed to be very flexible.  But I am not going to add Arabian Dervishes as a unit choice.  I am leaving it up to the player's imagination to decide how to represent the DoW troops in the list.  I may offer some suggestions (as part of the fluff/modeling content), to get the player's imagination running but it's up to him to make the final decision.
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