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Author Topic: Crystal Ball and Dark Elf assassins  (Read 28207 times)

Offline Shadowlord

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Re: Crystal Ball and Dark Elf assassins
« Reply #25 on: March 22, 2009, 06:40:25 PM »
@ Shadowlord warseer gives me a headache and as to my lack of fanboism :P.

My mod days of evil is approaching and guess who's gonna roast first!

As for the CB, I am more "know but still do not see" camp.
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Offline Mogsam

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Re: Crystal Ball and Dark Elf assassins
« Reply #26 on: March 22, 2009, 06:42:37 PM »
So your arguement is that a Wizard with a Crystal Ball goes. "Oh my, Jeppers! Theres a nasty little Assassin over in that unit. Boys boys be careful!" Which obviously causes the Assassin to immediatly be aware that he has been foiled, throw off his cloak and jump into the front rank because they can obviously tell which one he is.

It's pretty clear you never bothered reading my argument, and what you said isn't worth the 0and1s it's written in. 

As I've said come up with an argument and I'll gladly listen.

@ Shadowlord warseer gives me a headache and as to my lack of fanboism :P.

I did come up with an arguement. That you shouldn't abuse the rules. Your arguement was irrellevant because you're attempting to do something silly by interpreting the rules in a way that lets you "cheat". The rules imply that he has to tell you what is in the unit, i.e that there is an assassin with x weapon. He has thus revealed to you what he has. He doesn't have to put the guy in the front rank. If you used it on a Skaven character who was leading from the rear then he wouldn't move forward so you could get a better look at his magic weapon. Better? Used another rule as reference and everything.

The Crystal Ball tells you that theres an assassin in there. As the Wizard can't pick out specific models (unless hes a goblin shamen which he isn't) it doesn't matter that the Wizard would know which guy it is. The people shooting at him wouldn't have a bloody clue which one he is. Warhammer becomes alot less fun when people ignore logic.

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Offline Parka

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Re: Crystal Ball and Dark Elf assassins
« Reply #27 on: March 22, 2009, 06:49:44 PM »
McKnight PLEASE!  What your suggesting with measuring is cheating.  Please don't paint me with your brush.

If you play empire and cant estimate ranges you're playing the wrong army in the first place.

I'm as happy to be wrong as right, I'd just like to see as much reason as I've given.  

@ Shadowlord  You want to roast me! Yikes sorry I don't swing that way :P

Offline Parka

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Re: Crystal Ball and Dark Elf assassins
« Reply #28 on: March 22, 2009, 06:54:04 PM »

I did come up with an arguement. That you shouldn't abuse the rules. Your arguement was irrellevant because you're attempting to do something silly by interpreting the rules in a way that lets you "cheat". The rules imply that he has to tell you what is in the unit, i.e that there is an assassin with x weapon. He has thus revealed to you what he has. He doesn't have to put the guy in the front rank. If you used it on a Skaven character who was leading from the rear then he wouldn't move forward so you could get a better look at his magic weapon. Better? Used another rule as reference and everything.
Sit back down!  How is asking a question cheating?  LOL imply IT states YOU MUST reveal. And a reveal assassin is placed.

If I end up being wrong big whoop, if I end up being right the same amount of whoop.

The Crystal Ball tells you that theres an assassin in there. As the Wizard can't pick out specific models (unless hes a goblin shamen which he isn't)

Mogsam.
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Offline McKnight

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Re: Crystal Ball and Dark Elf assassins
« Reply #29 on: March 22, 2009, 07:01:34 PM »
McKnight PLEASE!  What your suggesting with measuring is cheating.  Please don't paint me with your brush.

If you play empire and cant estimate ranges you're playing the wrong army in the first place.

I'm as happy to be wrong as right, I'd just like to see as much reason as I've given.  

@ Shadowlord  You want to roast me! Yikes sorry I don't swing that way :P


That wasnt me  :-P

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Offline Mogsam

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Re: Crystal Ball and Dark Elf assassins
« Reply #30 on: March 22, 2009, 07:07:30 PM »
Sit back down!  How is asking a question cheating?  LOL imply IT states YOU MUST reveal. And a reveal assassin is placed.

If I end up being wrong big whoop, if I end up being right the same amount of whoop.

Shows what you know haven't you heard of law of metal?

I'm going to ignore your attempts to be patronising for the sake of not getting this post removed. If you ever tried this/all the other loopholes you'd be sucking the fun out of a game.

Mogsam.
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Offline vesrian

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Re: Crystal Ball and Dark Elf assassins
« Reply #31 on: March 22, 2009, 07:11:06 PM »
If you really want to get into the exact wording, the crystal ball says the enemy has to reveal all secrets and then goes on the explain that one secret that must be revealed is the pressence of the assassin. That's not actually the same as revealing the assassin himself. So if you're going by RAW, i think he'd stay hidden.

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Offline Mogsam

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Re: Crystal Ball and Dark Elf assassins
« Reply #32 on: March 22, 2009, 07:13:00 PM »
If you really want to get into the exact wording, the crystal ball says the enemy has to reveal all secrets and then goes on the explain that one secret that must be revealed is the pressence of the assassin. That's not actually the same as revealing the assassin himself. So if you're going by RAW, i think he'd stay hidden.



I don't know who you are but I love you. Figuratively, litterally would be immoral.

Mogsam.
Curse you and your ability to stay within the lines.

Offline ZehKaiser

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Re: Crystal Ball and Dark Elf assassins
« Reply #33 on: March 22, 2009, 07:24:55 PM »


I don't know who you are but I love you. Figuratively, litterally would be immoral.

Mogsam.

Why immoral?  Because you already have a significant other and you disapporve of adultery?  Or because you assume that the other poster was of the same gender as yourself?  Just curious.

On topic, I too am very happy that Vesrian made that point, it seems clear.
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Offline Parka

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Re: Crystal Ball and Dark Elf assassins
« Reply #34 on: March 22, 2009, 07:46:39 PM »
If you really want to get into the exact wording, the crystal ball says the enemy has to reveal all secrets and then goes on the explain that one secret that must be revealed is the pressence of the assassin. That's not actually the same as revealing the assassin himself. So if you're going by RAW, i think he'd stay hidden.



Cheers good post

Offline Mogsam

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Re: Crystal Ball and Dark Elf assassins
« Reply #35 on: March 22, 2009, 08:31:08 PM »


I don't know who you are but I love you. Figuratively, litterally would be immoral.

Mogsam.

Why immoral?  Because you already have a significant other and you disapporve of adultery?  Or because you assume that the other poster was of the same gender as yourself?  Just curious.

On topic, I too am very happy that Vesrian made that point, it seems clear.

Because i'm pretty sure it'd qualify as rape?

Mogsam.
Curse you and your ability to stay within the lines.

Offline ZehKaiser

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Re: Crystal Ball and Dark Elf assassins
« Reply #36 on: March 22, 2009, 08:49:16 PM »
@ Mogasm, lol good answer.  That would be rather immoral.  Carry on.
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Offline MrDWhitey

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Re: Crystal Ball and Dark Elf assassins
« Reply #37 on: March 22, 2009, 09:18:45 PM »
If you really want to get into the exact wording, the crystal ball says the enemy has to reveal all secrets and then goes on the explain that one secret that must be revealed is the pressence of the assassin. That's not actually the same as revealing the assassin himself. So if you're going by RAW, i think he'd stay hidden.



Cheers good post

I already made this point with the Dark eldar Talos Skimmer.

Damn you people suck at I donno, reading posts  :engel:

(All in jest. But I did pretty much say it with Skimmer, near the top of page 1, it's a hilarious case of two rules being named the same/having the same/near same wording, but clearly not having the same ingame effects)

Edit: Having looked back, it was vague, and vesrian put it crystal clear.  :::cheers:::

Shadowlord! Get him!

I am checking the web for his address but damn, Parka seems to be hard to find...

On the case.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2009, 09:27:52 PM by MrDwhitey »
I thought he should act responsibly and just kill himself.

Offline vesrian

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Re: Crystal Ball and Dark Elf assassins
« Reply #38 on: March 22, 2009, 09:44:10 PM »
Edit: Having looked back, it was vague, and vesrian put it crystal clear.  :::cheers:::

The difference is that i used italics   :-D
Nothing makes a point clearer than using italics - a typeface that's been scientifically proven harder to read.  :wink:
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Offline MrDWhitey

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Re: Crystal Ball and Dark Elf assassins
« Reply #39 on: March 22, 2009, 09:58:07 PM »
And being harder to read (yes, nice irony there  :biggriin:), it must be right!
I thought he should act responsibly and just kill himself.

Offline newsun

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Re: Crystal Ball and Dark Elf assassins
« Reply #40 on: March 22, 2009, 10:44:43 PM »
I don't see how the measuring is cheating, you use the item, measure 24" as that is the range and you know know where 24" is. It's a fricken crystal ball, it allows the wizard to divine all sorts of information and apparently 24" away is one of them.

Offline MrDWhitey

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Re: Crystal Ball and Dark Elf assassins
« Reply #41 on: March 22, 2009, 10:47:45 PM »
It's not cheating. It's the use whilst attached to a guessing weapon that is considered about as sportsmanlike as kicking someone when they're down, nicking their wallet, then taking shots at the paramedics when they arrive with a shotgun.
I thought he should act responsibly and just kill himself.

Offline Dihenydd

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Re: Crystal Ball and Dark Elf assassins
« Reply #42 on: March 22, 2009, 11:05:29 PM »
Ok, let's get to the real reason I see lurking behind these posts.  If the assassin is forced to be revealed ie placed in the front rank withing distance of the Crystal ball, then you've done two nasty things.  You have revealed the Assassin and placed him out, AND you've also pre-measured the distance so your HLR handgunner sitting next to you can pick him off.

I don't see any reason for the Empire player to insist the Assassin is 'revealed' rather than declared via rules lawyering is so that he can then be targetted by magick and/or the HLR's.  Either way, seems a bit cheap to me.  If I was the DE player, I doubt you'd get in a second game with me.
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Offline Markw

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Re: Crystal Ball and Dark Elf assassins
« Reply #43 on: March 22, 2009, 11:10:17 PM »
The crystall ball is one of the empires best items! Half the battle is knowing your enemy!

I would play it as the assassin is revealed - ie - you place the model down.  

As already stated the wizard goes "Theres a nasty assassing in that unit" - then marksman with the HLR goes "alright, hes mine BANG". Just as similar as a wizard saying "Theres the other wizard with all the dispell scrolls" - then the marksman with his HLR foes "alright, hes mine BANG". Surely thats the idea of the item?

Surely saying that a DE player would hate it is a bit odd tbh. Its good there is a weapon against things like that. Would you call it bad if, say for example, a dwarf player got all his characters with flaming weapons just so the Hyrda cant get a regen save? To me, that seems like a viable tactic to fight off an foe/model. IMO, the crystall ball is just the same kind of weapon to reveal stuff like assassins.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2009, 11:13:43 PM by Markw »

Offline MrDWhitey

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Re: Crystal Ball and Dark Elf assassins
« Reply #44 on: March 22, 2009, 11:18:31 PM »
I would play it as the assassin is revealed - ie - you place the model down.  

Only if you win the roll off with the DE player.

As already stated the wizard goes "Theres a nasty assassing in that unit" - then marksman with the HLR goes "alright, hes mine BANG". Just as similar as a wizard saying "Theres the other wizard with all the dispell scrolls" - then the marksman with his HLR foes "alright, hes mine BANG". Surely thats the idea of the item?

Now you're claiming knowledge by intent. That's a no go area.
I can just say "Surely the idea of the item is to give you an idea of the magic items he has, and knowledge of where they are?"

And best thing is.

"Sniper, that unit has an assassin!"

"Which one is the assassin?!"

"The one which looks like the rest of them!"

Before you go "but what about combat? Why bother revealing if he looks like any of them?"

Well, I guess the large circle of dead bodies, and beyond that a "keeping a respectful and fearful distance" bunch of Delves from the one doing ninja flips and throwing Str7 shurikens and knifing down combat lords, makes someone stand out from the crowd, and once he's start doing that crazy shit, everyone watches takes note, aims, and prays he shoots that Delf down before he gets to him.

(Plus if he wasn't revealed in combat either, I'd love that. Invisible and Invincible lord of awesome who adds insane amounts of ASF attacks to his unit! Or he'd be utterly useless as he'd never be revealed, ever!)

Disclaimer: Seriously, you'll at -best- get the Delf player to agree to a roll off, at worst, he'll call you a cheater and not play. Unless he really does like being walked over when it comes to any form of rules disagreement.

Edit: Unless you are a Dark Elf player, then I weep for my kin.

Just post another post, don't edit yours to respond to mine  :biggriin:

Anyway, viable tactic and bending the rules deliberately/loop hole rules lawyering are different things. And this smacks of it to me.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2009, 11:30:28 PM by MrDwhitey »
I thought he should act responsibly and just kill himself.

Offline Parka

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Re: Crystal Ball and Dark Elf assassins
« Reply #45 on: March 22, 2009, 11:55:21 PM »
You could just ask where to find me and if you promise to buy me a beer I'll tell ya :D

I don't see how using the Crystal Ball to reveal Dark Elf assassins is cheating or rules lawyering if that is how it is written (maybe it is, maybe it isn't) and a dark elf throwing throwing Str7 shurikens isn't. 

Seems to me before GW faqed it the same could have be said to the guy who asked about the rending stars and manbane combo.  I'd also like to add that since that the Faq's are no longer classed as rules I still have the right to say to the DE player that it doesn't and call him a cheat for asking.

Offline MrDWhitey

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Re: Crystal Ball and Dark Elf assassins
« Reply #46 on: March 22, 2009, 11:58:40 PM »
Excellent, you're both swines with no sportsmanship who want to be gamey.  :biggriin:

Until they FAQ it of course.

On the Manbane and str7 throwing stars. That was a travesty. Gav Thorpe said it would max at str6, then the next day the FAQ said 7, was a bit annoying. Oh well.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2009, 12:01:47 AM by MrDwhitey »
I thought he should act responsibly and just kill himself.

Offline phillyt

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Re: Crystal Ball and Dark Elf assassins
« Reply #47 on: March 23, 2009, 12:06:24 AM »
I think Parka is reading too much into the verb "reveal" here.  Besides, the subject of the verb in the crystal ball is the "secrets" not the assasin itself.

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Offline Toro_Blanco

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Re: Crystal Ball and Dark Elf assassins
« Reply #48 on: March 23, 2009, 12:21:03 AM »
To me, it seems like it would be possible if you went strictly by the wording of the rules that the assassin would be revealed.  I never thought of that, because to me it always seemed like a device that just informed the wizard that something was there, but not necessarily everything about it.  Revealing the presence, to me, implies simple knowledge of something's existence.  "Hmm, my crystal ball is showing me something...an assassin, hiding somewhere in that unit of spears!"  That sort of thing, and that's going by my understanding of the RAW.  I never got the impression it showed him the specifics, just that it was there, like a nebulous sort of knowledge.
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Offline Dihenydd

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Re: Crystal Ball and Dark Elf assassins
« Reply #49 on: March 23, 2009, 04:56:52 PM »
Well, revealing in CC would be different though, as then there's the possibility of allocating etc during the actual CC.

I think we're playing a lot of semantic games with the word 'reveal' however.

An argument can be made if you play hardball on this to reveal the assassin and force him to be placed.  It may be correct, but it ain't right.
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