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Author Topic: Border Princes IC 2524 (Linked to the Solland Effort)  (Read 49068 times)

Offline Toro_Blanco

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Re: Border Princes IC 2524 (Linked to the Solland Effort)
« Reply #525 on: June 08, 2009, 06:50:24 PM »
"You think your brother will march against you if he returns?"
The first school of thought is that the ragged-assed Stirlanders, not having two coppers to rub together, nicked it when an elven envoy was passing through the area and had hopped off it to take a pee behind a tree

Offline Inarticulate

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Re: Border Princes IC 2524 (Linked to the Solland Effort)
« Reply #526 on: June 08, 2009, 06:52:47 PM »
Thomas was nonplussed, Arathos held himself with a regal attitude, but Thomas had suspicions that he was not noble born. "Of course he would."

No family ties in the Vitec family ;)
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Offline Toro_Blanco

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Re: Border Princes IC 2524 (Linked to the Solland Effort)
« Reply #527 on: June 08, 2009, 06:58:08 PM »
Arathos blinked a bit in astonishment.  What kind of brother would do such a thing?  Then again, the brutality of this Matthias was notorious enough.  Arathos nodded.  "Of course, all member cities of the Protectorate are guaranteed the full military support of the Legion against any foe.  As for your brother Stefan, I will dispatch the order myself to deal with him.  I hope we can find most of the refugees quickly; a large harvest will be crucial to paying for the repairs the Protectorate needs, to say nothing of preventing famine this winter."
The first school of thought is that the ragged-assed Stirlanders, not having two coppers to rub together, nicked it when an elven envoy was passing through the area and had hopped off it to take a pee behind a tree

Online GamesPoet

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Re: Border Princes IC 2524 (Linked to the Solland Effort)
« Reply #528 on: June 10, 2009, 03:09:39 AM »
The Pass of Karak Gantuk ...
Is that the name given to the pass by GW?
"Not all who wander are lost ... " Tolkien

"The beauty of curiosity and creativity is so much more useful than the passion of fear." me

"... my old suggestion is forget it, take two aspirins and go paint" steveb

Online GamesPoet

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Re: Border Princes IC 2524 (Linked to the Solland Effort)
« Reply #529 on: June 10, 2009, 03:13:37 AM »
Can't believe how big this thread has gotten! Also, played a small battle with a dwarf army at the weekend, will write up a narrative battle report... sadly no pictures, i'm not that hi-tech ;)
And this will represent the Black Company's encounter with the Dwarfs in the pass?
"Not all who wander are lost ... " Tolkien

"The beauty of curiosity and creativity is so much more useful than the passion of fear." me

"... my old suggestion is forget it, take two aspirins and go paint" steveb

Offline Fog Of Waagh

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Re: Border Princes IC 2524 (Linked to the Solland Effort)
« Reply #530 on: June 11, 2009, 02:40:28 AM »
((As soon as my ass is done being lazy, I will finish my damn gobbos and throw together a Skirmish myself between my Oh-So-Heroic Estalians Vs the little bastards... Till then, I will be stareing at my Half painted Gobbo's praying they will magically get done.))
Scream WAAAGH and let slip the Boars of war!

Offline Inarticulate

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Re: Border Princes IC 2524 (Linked to the Solland Effort)
« Reply #531 on: June 11, 2009, 01:45:10 PM »
Can't believe how big this thread has gotten! Also, played a small battle with a dwarf army at the weekend, will write up a narrative battle report... sadly no pictures, i'm not that hi-tech ;)
And this will represent the Black Company's encounter with the Dwarfs in the pass?

Yes.

The Pass of Karak Gantuk ...
Is that the name given to the pass by GW?
Karak Gantuk is a minor hold near the pass (according to some[probably unofficial] maps I've seen) , so thats the name I gave it, perhaps the men of the Empire have a different name for it. It comes out near Ummenbach I believe.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2009, 02:49:55 PM by Inarticulate »
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Offline Perius

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Re: Border Princes IC 2524 (Linked to the Solland Effort)
« Reply #532 on: June 11, 2009, 07:38:50 PM »
Might I ask - how big are the armies concerned? Twenty, thirty, forty strong? Or over a hundred strong, the kind of scale that lays a land to waste and famine just by standing still and eating food?

Offline Inarticulate

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Re: Border Princes IC 2524 (Linked to the Solland Effort)
« Reply #533 on: June 11, 2009, 07:45:13 PM »
My army is relatively small, only some 2-3 thousand strong. My character is just a  Border Prince. Not an Emperor :D. I'd think it hard for the Emperor to field a hundred strong army!

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Offline Perius

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Re: Border Princes IC 2524 (Linked to the Solland Effort)
« Reply #534 on: June 11, 2009, 08:09:07 PM »
2000 strong?  :-o  How do you feed them all?  :laugh:

But heck, Wissenland doesn't stand a chance. The garrison of Nuln is only 4800; and only 300 of them are standing troops, the rest militia: well might the Empire tremble!

An army that size would cause a famine even if it just spent a few weeks in the already hand-to-mouth areas of southern Wissenland!



EDIT: Unless, of course, we're working on the "rule of cool" massive armies, or this whopping force has an even bigger supply train behind it and represents one of the most powerful regions of the Border Princes migrating.

Offline Inarticulate

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Re: Border Princes IC 2524 (Linked to the Solland Effort)
« Reply #535 on: June 11, 2009, 08:17:20 PM »
Well my army basically has a pseudo-mercenary feel to it. They started off as raping, looting mercenaries, then carved out their own kingdom by conquering the neighbouring towns before some despicable people (;)) decided to stop my excellent army bringing the barbarian towns surrounding me under the wing of my great general Don Matthias Vitec.
In reality, the economy of my princedom couldn't sustain my army so I went to war.

It now exists by looting every town it comes across and ravaging the countryside, killing and raping pretty much anything.

Apparently I'm being called the bad guy.
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Offline Perius

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Re: Border Princes IC 2524 (Linked to the Solland Effort)
« Reply #536 on: June 11, 2009, 08:20:39 PM »
That's a pretty awesome background... an army that is so powerful and so strong that no country can sustain it, so instead it just wanders around looting, raping and burning at will.

Tremble, oh Empire!

Offline Inarticulate

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Re: Border Princes IC 2524 (Linked to the Solland Effort)
« Reply #537 on: June 11, 2009, 08:22:02 PM »
Think of them as Italian Condottieri inbetween jobs.
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Offline Perius

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Re: Border Princes IC 2524 (Linked to the Solland Effort)
« Reply #538 on: June 11, 2009, 08:38:38 PM »
Hmmm... have you ever seen Schiller's Wallenstein sequence? Because, if you have, they make me think of Count Octavio's band of mercenaries, so powerful that they make up almost a third of the Imperial Army.

If not, then yes, I think I have a good idea.

Offline Inarticulate

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Re: Border Princes IC 2524 (Linked to the Solland Effort)
« Reply #539 on: June 11, 2009, 08:55:33 PM »
Wallenstein was awesome.

Changing the enite unit formation just so the standard is in the exact centre of the block is so perfectionist and over the top its just brilliant!
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Offline Fog Of Waagh

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Re: Border Princes IC 2524 (Linked to the Solland Effort)
« Reply #540 on: June 11, 2009, 09:25:35 PM »
My Army is only a Merc army as well, so I'm smaller then Inart. I survive off a chain of supplies. Currently, Ricardo was the End of the Supply train so what supplies the Army does have will last them a bit, but yes it won't last them long. Arathos, currently, is pushing them out of the Border Princes so, we will have to see how this mutates.
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Online GamesPoet

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Re: Border Princes IC 2524 (Linked to the Solland Effort)
« Reply #541 on: June 12, 2009, 03:00:30 AM »
It could make sense for us to not get too carried away with the size of the armies.  Wissenland isn't an area of huge wealth or large armies.  If 2-3k of soldiers entered the Empire and began looting and pillaging, this in itself might provide a reason for the Sollanders and Wissenland to join forces and drive the raider out (and perhaps towards the end of the story we coudl work this in).  It could make more sense currently for Mathias to be finding a way to co-exist by offering his services to Wissenland in return for being able to feed his men, or something like that. :icon_wink:

Anyway, before this all starts, I'm still trying to finalize the broad course of how this will proceed and I have been taking input from many of the participants, so that we have a framework to move forward upon, but everyone can still use their individual creativities to then define and refine the details.  If folks can give me a few days to finish this, that would be helpful, before we all plunge into the escalation of the conflict in Wissenland (Solland, for those who view it that way :icon_wink:).

Thanks!
"Not all who wander are lost ... " Tolkien

"The beauty of curiosity and creativity is so much more useful than the passion of fear." me

"... my old suggestion is forget it, take two aspirins and go paint" steveb

Offline Toro_Blanco

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Re: Border Princes IC 2524 (Linked to the Solland Effort)
« Reply #542 on: June 12, 2009, 05:05:42 AM »
The Dawnstrider Army is nearly 3,000 strong, but very few of it is mobile.  Each city has a standing garrison as large as can be comfortably housed (at least a good hundred in the smallest hamlets, up to several hundred in larger cities), with about 1,000 serving as the mobile army that polices the borders and handles reinforcing cities in peril.  The Dawnstriders could never mobilize the entirety of its soldiers for battle, because that would involve taking literally EVERY soldier in the various towns, leaving every city completely defenseless and lawless, since Dawnstrider soldiers double as local law enforcement (to say nothing of the catastrophe of trying to manage a such a tremendous supply train with no soldiers to organize or defend it).  In reality, it would strain the Dawnstrider Protectorate greatly to field even 2,000 soldiers.  A thousand men is already considered a great investment, and typically 500 or so move about the various patrol paths while the other 500 are kept on continuous duty, moving from city to city helping with projects or escorting trade caravans to neighboring nations or down to Barak Varr.  The Dawnstriders make the majority of their wealth selling barley and wheat to the dwarfs to be brewed into beer, and spend the wealth importing more food and gear for the army.

This is how Arathos manages to feed and pay his men; outside of battle they perform public works, everything from helping till fields, to paving roads and building walls and towers.  Although they all recieve periodic training and maintained equipment, and despite the fact they are full time, paid professional soldiers, they are in many ways no different than militia that answer a call to arms.  During their downtime they live and work among the peasants under their care (often in their hometown), the only difference being their armor and weaponry.  The additional wealth and food comes from seeking out and destroying bandit hideouts, goblin and orc tribes, and skaven tunnels, and plundering their supplies for salvageable food to feed the men.  Anything metal is sold to the dwarfs as scrap (if they'll take it), or smelted into gear to be sold to the villagers under the Dawnstriders' care (if the dwarfs won't).  Obviously, the extra wealth they come by depends largely on finding and destroying said enemies, so Arathos commonly spends the summers and early autumn leading expeditions into the mountains to the east, where orc tribes are plentiful and loot can be brought back in decent numbers.
The first school of thought is that the ragged-assed Stirlanders, not having two coppers to rub together, nicked it when an elven envoy was passing through the area and had hopped off it to take a pee behind a tree

Offline Inarticulate

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Re: Border Princes IC 2524 (Linked to the Solland Effort)
« Reply #543 on: June 12, 2009, 10:24:35 AM »
Due to careful deliberation and subtle peer pressure, I'll reduce the size of Matthias' force to a thousand.

I feel that it is a good move and I agree that two thousand would make too big an impact so early on.

Thanks for the feedback guys!
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Offline Uryens de Crux

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Re: Border Princes IC 2524 (Linked to the Solland Effort)
« Reply #544 on: June 12, 2009, 11:15:05 AM »
Its an interesting call on how big armies would be in the Old World

Medieval armies, in a Europe that saw continuous warfare, rarely saw armies larger than a few thousand, armies numbering 10s of thousands were the province of kings mounting massive campaigns.

The largest and most famous of all mercenary companies, The White Company numbered about 5000 at their highest and were a massive strain on the countryside (not to mention the purses that paid them!) but it seems an appropriate number to use for a large, powerful and famour company (like the ones we all command :) )

That said, the numbers GW use for populations wouldnt support a starving rat, never mind an army at war, so they have to be taken with a pinch of salt too.

I think the nice rule of thumb that occured to me was the army has a number of troops equal to the points value, roughly (though this really only works for the baseline of humans/empire)
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Offline Perius

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Re: Border Princes IC 2524 (Linked to the Solland Effort)
« Reply #545 on: June 12, 2009, 01:38:04 PM »
It might also be added that these armies of 2/3000 were national armies, and left total chaos in their wake. If this story is less a second Storm of Chaos, and more a rebellion doomed to failure after a brief success, I'd think 2500 would be at the top end of Sollander numbers.

Inarticulate - that seems like a good plan.

Toro - Dawnstrider? I'm fascinated... I've not yet read these threads, but where does that realm lie? When you say "at least a good hundred in the smallest hamlets", is that bearing in mind that most hamlets have a population of 20-40, who struggle to survive on a yearly basis due to the tiny supplies of food subsistence farming produces?


EDIT: Never mind.  :roll:  Just re-read your post, and have realized that you sustain such a large army in a similar way to Sparta, by having every man a soldier.

That's really cool, actually... no wonder your realm sounds like such a strong military power!  :-o

Offline Padre

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Re: Border Princes IC 2524 (Linked to the Solland Effort)
« Reply #546 on: June 12, 2009, 05:38:52 PM »
I'm quite suprised you guys are having this discussion. The GW estimates for population in settlements of the Empire are ridiculously small, as is the number of actual figures in a tabletop army. So I had always assumed that GW were talking actual toy soldiers in a bizarre sort of way.

With this in mind when I do Bat Reps and do (occasionally) mention numbers, I talk in terms of the number of figures involved. When I do stories and linking pieces I avoid mentioning numbers so that I never have to choose between naming the actual number of figures or what would be a more believable, realistic number.

I do like Uryens' suggested method of imagining the number of soldiers in an army to be something like the points value. Obviously for different races you would have to mess about with such a figure. Like Agrabog's Ogres might have a number of Ogres (for story purposes) of about 1/4 their points value.

I'm gonna stick to using the actual number of figures when feeling the need to give an actual figure, if that's ok.
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Offline Toro_Blanco

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Re: Border Princes IC 2524 (Linked to the Solland Effort)
« Reply #547 on: June 12, 2009, 05:42:33 PM »
I'm sort of with Uryens...this is a game of heroic fantasy, and I'm going with a bit of stretching reality for fun, along with some fluff justification for an army of my size.
The first school of thought is that the ragged-assed Stirlanders, not having two coppers to rub together, nicked it when an elven envoy was passing through the area and had hopped off it to take a pee behind a tree

Offline Inarticulate

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Re: Border Princes IC 2524 (Linked to the Solland Effort)
« Reply #548 on: June 12, 2009, 06:03:46 PM »
In the Storm of Chaos, am I right in remembering Archaon had like half a million in his horde?

Sounds like he definitely should have won if all the Empire could only muster some twenty thousand?
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Offline Toro_Blanco

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Re: Border Princes IC 2524 (Linked to the Solland Effort)
« Reply #549 on: June 12, 2009, 06:13:22 PM »
Getting things back on track before we get too bogged down in OOC matters

Schwarzbaum, Central Border Princes

A guard arrived just after dinner had been served, walking into the dining hall where Stefan was digging into his meal of roasted vegetables, three baked chickens, and a loaf of bread with sweet cream butter.  His appetite had been returning, the cooks noticed, and he seemed to be in high spirits, waiting for the general to return so he could negotiate with him for a profitable place in these lands.  The guard walked up to Stefan, who sighed mid chew.  "What is it, man?  Can't you see I'm having my dinner?"  The guard frowned, brushing off a chunk of food that had spattered his armor.  He broke the seal on the orders given to him by a messenger from Vidovdan.
     "I have orders concerning your welfare, straight from Vidovdan, Herr Vitec.  Let's see.  It says, 'By order of the General of the Dawnstrider Legion and Commander in Chief of the Protectorate's Forces, Arathos the Dawnbringer, you, Stefan Vitec, are to be executed by beheading at once.'"  The guard put away the missive as Stefan dropped his fork.  "Well, isn't that a shame?  I'll be back after you've finished your last meal."
The first school of thought is that the ragged-assed Stirlanders, not having two coppers to rub together, nicked it when an elven envoy was passing through the area and had hopped off it to take a pee behind a tree