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Author Topic: 'A' is for 'Altdorf' - advice needed on theme guide [full version in library]  (Read 9098 times)

Offline rufus sparkfire

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http://www.warhammer-empire.com/library/guide/guide_index.php


A couple of people may remember that I am working on a guide to army theme for each of the provinces and city-states of our glorious Empire. I'm basing it on all the official background I have access to, and it will combine current 'canonical' material with older stuff (where the old does not contradict the new).

Anyway, I'm about half-way through and have been for some time. The problem is, I'm not sure of the best format for this information. What I have now was easiest to write, but I don't know if it really 'works'.

So, please have a look at this brief sample, the Altdorf section of the guide. Any feedback will be gratefully accepted. I prefer the positive variety, but if you would rather question my scholarship/virility/parentage you can do that instead. Or as well, I'm not fussy.

Here it is:

Altdorf (red and blue)

Altdorf is the Imperial capital, the seat of Karl-Franz; home to the Great Cathedral of Sigmar, the Colleges of Magic and the School of Engineers. The city is a centre for trade and learning; its docks teem with merchants, its taverns with students. As the largest and richest city in The Empire, its troops are perhaps the best equipped of all the state armies. Altdorf maintains not only its own army, but also the Emperor’s guard (see the appendix list in the army book).

The city is the headquarters for the Cult of Sigmar, founder and patron god of The Empire. The Cult is strictly hierarchical – there are eighteen Lectors, two Arch-Lectors and at the top the Grand Theogonist (who some say wields more power and influence than the Emperor himself). Johann Esmer currently hold the office, replacing Volkmar ‘the Grim’ von Hindenstern who was killed in battle with a northern barbarian leader. The Cult is divided into three orders: the Order of the Silver Hammer are the warrior priests; the Order of the Torch are the administrators, and are responsible for officiating at religious ceremonies; the Order of the Anvil are monastic, and live a life of isolation and meditation.

Altdorf may lie at the heart of The Empire, but it has been besieged many times. The Orc warlord Gorbad Ironclaw almost took the city in 1707, and Emperor Sigismund died defending the walls from attacking wyverns. During the long wars against the Vampire Counts of Sylvania Altdorf was twice besieged – first by Vlad von Carstein, and later by his successor Manfred. Both times the Undead were turned back, but only at the cost of many lives.

Altdorf’s heraldry includes the Hammer of Sigmar, the Imperial crown and the griffon.

•   All possible character choices are very appropriate, with the exception of the Elector Count. Since there is no Elector Count of Altdorf, this character should be re-named as a Marshall, Burgomaster or something similar.
•   Though Altdorf almost certainly has a temple to Ulric, Warrior Priests should generally be Sigmarite. Sigmar’s symbols include the hammer, the twin-tailed comet and the octagon (this is formed from two superimposed squares with their points joined up, and represents the eight tribes unified by Sigmar).
•   Many special characters are from Altdorf: the Emperor Karl-Franz, the Supreme Patriarch Balthasar Gelt, the Reiksmarshall Kurt Helborg, the Emperor’s Champion Ludwig Schwartzhelm, the former Supreme Patriarch Thyrus Gormann and the deceased Grand Theogonist Volkmar the Grim.
•   A Templar Grand Master could represent either the Reiksmarshall, or the head of the High Helms, the Order of the Fiery Heart or the Knights Griffon (see below).
•   The following magic items have a direct connection to Altdorf: the Sword of Justice, the Armour of Meteoric Iron, the Grey Wand, the Imperial Banner, the Banner of Sigismund and the Griffon Standard. Even though there is no Runefang for Altdorf, the swords belonging to the lost provinces of Drakwald and Solland are held in the Imperial Vaults – thus an Elector Count equivalent could easily be using one of these swords.
•   The Imperial Zoo houses a large collection of monstrous creatures, including many Griffons and Pegasi.
•   Halberdiers, Swordsmen, Greatswords (either as the Altdorf Greatswords or the Reiksguard infantry) and Handgunners should be the main infantry choices. Archers and Huntsmen should be avoided (too rustic).
•   Flagellants can represent pilgrims travelling to the Cathedral of Sigmar.
•   Free Company and Dogs of War Duellists can be used to represent the many gangs of the city’s docklands.
•   Steam Tanks, Helblaster Volley Guns, repeater pistols/handguns and Hochland long rifles fit better here than anywhere else in The Empire, since Altdorf is home to the School of Engineers.
•   Altdorf is literally crawling with young nobles – these can be represented by Pistoliers.
•   Cannon and Mortars, purchased from Nuln, will almost invariably be present in the army.
•   There are four primary Knightly Orders that are most appropriate for an Altdorf Army: the Reiksguard are the personal guard of the Emperor; the High Helms are a new order of very tall (and allegedly rather dim-witted) knights, formed at the order of Karl-Franz; the Order of the Fiery Heart are fanatical templars of Sigmar, and form the personal guard of the Grand Theogonist; the Knights Griffon were formed by Magnus the Pious in 2305 to protect the Temple to Sigmar in Nuln, but moved to Altdorf after it became the Imperial Capital in 2429.
•   Dwarfs built the city walls (which are currently being reinforced, at the order of the Emperor), and are a significant presence at the School of Engineers. Dwarfs fight in their own units rather than being recruited into state regiments – they will often wear uniforms of their own design, and favour Imperial fashions over the sombre clothing of other Dwarfs.
•   The Moot is the only province to supply troops directly to the Imperial army at Altdorf. However, Halfling regiments are generally assigned to foraging and provisioning rather than actual fighting. The Halfling Hotpot, invented by master chef Gambo Heartstock and first used against the goblin warlord Grom, was added to the Imperial arsenal at the request of the Emperor and has been used by the army of Altdorf ever since.

p.s. I'm not sure actually if this is the most recent version, but it will do for now. Get commenting!
« Last Edit: August 17, 2007, 03:37:08 PM by rufus sparkfire »
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'A' is for 'Altdorf' - advice needed on theme guide
« Reply #1 on: April 22, 2004, 11:37:48 AM »
Where did you get all this from?
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Offline rufus sparkfire

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'A' is for 'Altdorf' - advice needed on theme guide
« Reply #2 on: April 22, 2004, 03:48:02 PM »
Uh, I wrote it, based on the official background - y'know, books'n stuff. :)

So anyway, does anyone have any comments? Or do I have to post this on the main forum to get anyone to look at it?
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Offline CM Dante

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'A' is for 'Altdorf' - advice needed on theme guide
« Reply #3 on: April 22, 2004, 04:24:13 PM »
I like what I see, the format is quite easy to follow and includes alot of useful information.

Just one thing,
Quote
Volkmar ‘the Grim’ von Hindenstern who was killed in battle with a northern barbarian leader


I think big Archie is a bit more than a northern barbarian leader!  :D  

Cheers,

Dante

Offline Elden

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'A' is for 'Altdorf' - advice needed on theme guide
« Reply #4 on: April 23, 2004, 09:53:37 AM »
It looks fine.

I think Altdolf should have at least one steam tank, if not more though.

Also, I believe it should have a lot more knightly orders. (Of course, there will be a few main orders but the tall helms sounds wierd).

If you are talking about imperial troops, then Altdolf is big enough to have its own state troops. But for the "imperial" army, then that army should be made of troops from all the states. I remember in the book that if any elector count fails to send troops when the emperor calls for it, that is considered high treason.

So, the imperial army will have troops from all over the empire.

I also think more mention should be made of the mages. Altdolf is home to all the collegues of mages. So, it has the greatest concentration of wizards found anywhere in the empire. This should really be brought up.

Theoratically, if the imperial army is really mastered and called into battle. The mages will definitely be there. This means that there should at least be 8 mages, if not more representing the 8 winds of magic. (If its treason for the counts not to respond, it will equally be treason if any collegue refuses to answer the call to war by the emporor).

Its hard to talk about only altdolf without talking about emperor because right now, the emperor is Karl Franz and he is the elector count of Altdolf.
So, I think that when talking about Altdolf, you have to also talk about the imperial army, imperial palace, etc.

Offline lordmetroid

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'A' is for 'Altdorf' - advice needed on theme guide
« Reply #5 on: April 23, 2004, 11:04:41 AM »
Why play an Altdorf army? it seems like they have no limitations...
That's what a theme should do to an armylist, bring limitations and preference of specific units over the other kinds!

Offline Benedictus

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'A' is for 'Altdorf' - advice needed on theme guide
« Reply #6 on: April 23, 2004, 11:05:08 AM »
Aside from the comments on the wizards, which are very apt, I've little to add:

While there is an Engineer School in Altdorf, the main centre for engineer-type-stuff is Nuln. It doesn't make any difference for this article, but would be worth remembering.

Spearmen regiments could easily be represented by half-pikes, as Altdorf is a more cosmopolitan city and is likely to be influenced by Tilea, rather than having the simple spearmen of the northern provinces.

If I have any ideas, I'll mention them.
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'A' is for 'Altdorf' - advice needed on theme guide
« Reply #7 on: April 23, 2004, 02:56:17 PM »
Looks really good, I'm not a great source of knowledge myself, so I couldn't think of anything you should add.

Offline queek

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'A' is for 'Altdorf' - advice needed on theme guide
« Reply #8 on: April 23, 2004, 03:41:16 PM »
Quote from: Benedictus


While there is an Engineer School in Altdorf, the main centre for engineer-type-stuff is Nuln. It doesn't make any difference for this article, but would be worth remembering.


actually, the Engineering School is in Altdorf.  Its the Artillery School that is in Nuln.  Some of the fluff also had the Countessa of Nuln trying to start her own Engineering School, but the original one is in Altdorf.

Offline rufus sparkfire

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'A' is for 'Altdorf' - advice needed on theme guide
« Reply #9 on: April 23, 2004, 04:26:20 PM »
Thanks for all the comments so far!

@Dante - no, Archie is just a barbarian with ideas above his station! At least, that's what the propaganda says.  :wink:

@Elden - I'm intending to look at the 'journeys of the steam tanks' thing on the GW site to get some idea of which provinces might have been seen with which tanks. As for knights - I think four different orders in one city is quite a lot! I'm sticking to 'official' orders only, and only when they have an established connection to the city/province. Very good points about the Imperial Army and the wizards. :)

@lordmetroid - yes, Altdorf has very few limitations. Some people call it the Imperial version of Clan Skyre!

@Benedictus - I think I mentioned half-pikes under 'Averland'. Perhaps they should be available to Altdorf as well. Queek is right though about the Engineering school. Strictly speaking, the ONLY one is in Altdorf. The only sources that claim a school for Nuln are non-canonical (Bill King novels). I have decided to ignore all the GW novels because: (a) I only have two (b) they are mostly quite bad (c) even GW doesn't generally consider them canon. I am sticking to WFB and WFRP sources (WFRP only where it doesn't conflict with WFB). Oh, and some Mordheim stuff.

Anyway, thanks for all the feedback. Keep in mind, this is just one section out of fourteen (10 provinces, 4 city-states). :)

Finally, if anyone has any ideas or suggestions at all for any province or city please let me know. You can email me if you like!
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Offline Grutch

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'A' is for 'Altdorf' - advice needed on theme guide
« Reply #10 on: April 23, 2004, 05:16:46 PM »
Which is why I have I paint an Altdorf army...

The steam Tanks are created in Altdorf.  Hence taking one shouldn't be a problem.  Of course I don't think I would take one unless I'm playing 2500-3000 points.  

I'm building a full pike legion for my Altdorfers.  They are painted Red White Blue and Yellow, so I could always call them recruited Middenlanders if somebody thinks its against the fluff.  

-Grutch

Offline imperialforge

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'A' is for 'Altdorf' - advice needed on theme guide
« Reply #11 on: April 23, 2004, 05:54:27 PM »
A quick comment on heraldry (you know I am a sucker for all things heraldic  :lol: ):

One version of Altdorf arms ALSO includes a Key, symbolizing Altdorf's preeminent position as the center of the Empire and the key to its heart.

Offline rufus sparkfire

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'A' is for 'Altdorf' - advice needed on theme guide
« Reply #12 on: April 23, 2004, 07:06:31 PM »
Quote from: Grutch
I'm building a full pike legion for my Altdorfers.  They are painted Red White Blue and Yellow, so I could always call them recruited Middenlanders if somebody thinks its against the fluff.  


Actually, I'd be less happy about Middenland Pikemen than Altdorf ones. My prefered 'Pike-friendly' provinces are Averland, Stirland, Wissenland and Nuln (also Marienburg, though it's not in the Empire, and maybe Reikland). You can make some sort of case for Pikes to appear in the other provinces, but not a very strong one.


Imperialforge, could you provide me with a reference on the Altdorf Key? That one seems to have passed me by. :?
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Offline EC.Sylvania

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'A' is for 'Altdorf' - advice needed on theme guide
« Reply #13 on: April 23, 2004, 08:06:59 PM »
The opening paragraph was excellent. You got me interested in Karl-Franz, the home to the Great Cathedral of Sigmar, the Colleges of Magic, and the School of Engineers. I wish you has a subsection later in the text that at least gave a paragraph regarding each. Throwing them out in the opening paragraph and then not following up is a horrible trick.

I know it may be insanely tedious, but adding a footnote to the various sources would be very helpful for those of us who would like to pursue further research on our own. You can see how some folks do it here:

http://home.swipnet.se/~w-13090/stories/history.html

Has the city been besieged many times or just twice? You gave two examples. Do more exist?

Rather than using bullet points you may want to consider dividing the various subsections into more intuitive categories. i.e. Heroes, Magic Items, Beasts, Core, Special, Rare, Allies, DOW, etc.

This will be truly helpful. Thank you for doing it.

Offline rufus sparkfire

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'A' is for 'Altdorf' - advice needed on theme guide
« Reply #14 on: April 23, 2004, 08:22:47 PM »
Quote from: EC.Sylvania
Throwing them out in the opening paragraph and then not following up is a horrible trick.


Sorry about that. :oops:

This is why I need feedback! The trouble with writing something like this is the scale of the task - I have ten provinces and four city-states to cover, plus Sylvania and several towns (Bogenhafen and Carroburg at least). I didn't want to get too bogged down on any one area. You are right though, and I will assuredly sort it out. :wink:

I have already compiled a list of references, and I will list them somewhere at some point. :)

I only found three examples of Altorf being besieged, but I'm sure there were others. Maybe Luther Huss and Valten count as another time?

Bullet points. I don't really like them either, but it was so much easier to do... I'll keep them until I have all the information in place, then see what I can do to make it all flow better. I like your catagories idea.
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Offline BAWTRM

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'A' is for 'Altdorf' - advice needed on theme guide
« Reply #15 on: April 24, 2004, 12:44:45 AM »
Bogenhafen you say? My army is from Bogenhafen! I know very little about it besides it being a trading town between Helmgart and Altdorf.
I'm already looking forward to that part!

Maybe you could suggest a higher number of Marksmen upgrades because of the Engineer School?
You know, HLRs, RHGs etc.
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Offline Calvin

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'A' is for 'Altdorf' - advice needed on theme guide
« Reply #16 on: April 24, 2004, 03:12:30 AM »
if you need help with knights i made a topic a while ago with lots of info, as far as i know its all official, but take it with a grain of salt, some of my sources were um---- a little oldish and unreliable.
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Offline valtens hammer

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'A' is for 'Altdorf' - advice needed on theme guide
« Reply #17 on: April 24, 2004, 08:13:05 AM »
I like the artical. A lot more detail than what I could find. do you know anything about hergig?
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Offline rufus sparkfire

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'A' is for 'Altdorf' - advice needed on theme guide
« Reply #18 on: April 24, 2004, 12:10:46 PM »
@BAWTRM - I have no end of stuff on Bogenhafen, considering there is a WRFP adventure set there!

@Cavin - I found your thread on knights, thanks for that. I'll need to confirm the athenticity of some of the sources though - I suspect some of it may be fan-made WFRP stuff.

@valten's hammer - There's not very much on Hergig, but what I have will go in to the guide. In the meantime, if you do a search on the boards, I think there have been one or two posts about Hergig and Hochland that you might find useful.
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Offline FlameKnight

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'A' is for 'Altdorf' - advice needed on theme guide
« Reply #19 on: April 24, 2004, 12:36:51 PM »
Great job! I like the layout, and everything written seemed good.

Well, if you're going to do them in alphabetical order, I suppose Averland would be next, and I'm looking forward to it.

Offline Benedictus

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'A' is for 'Altdorf' - advice needed on theme guide
« Reply #20 on: April 25, 2004, 08:26:53 AM »
Nuts. I was so sure that there was an engineering school at Nuln. :) Ah, well. I've been thoroughly proven wrong there, methinks!

I'm looking forward to seeing some more articles.
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Offline Fafnir

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'A' is for 'Altdorf' - advice needed on theme guide
« Reply #21 on: April 25, 2004, 09:29:02 AM »
Nuln has the Imperial Gunnery School, easy to get the two mixed up.

Great stuff Rufus, although it's Gambo Hartstock, not Heartstock. :wink:
EDIT: see Africa for more examples ...

Offline valtens hammer

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'A' is for 'Altdorf' - advice needed on theme guide
« Reply #22 on: April 25, 2004, 12:44:25 PM »
I did notice one thing in your list though that might be wrong. You say that altorf has no runefang. In one of the WD Where Karl franz gives valten garl maraz he takes the runefang of altorf and uses it. If I am wrong in this let me know. The artical is still great though and I am going to use it to write the fluff for my army.
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Offline Benedictus

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'A' is for 'Altdorf' - advice needed on theme guide
« Reply #23 on: April 25, 2004, 12:50:56 PM »
Altdorf is a city-state, not a province. Only provinces have Runefangs.

Karl-Franz is the Elector of the Reikland as well as being Emperor, so he wields the Runefang of Reikland. :)
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Offline Benedictus

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'A' is for 'Altdorf' - advice needed on theme guide
« Reply #24 on: April 25, 2004, 12:53:47 PM »
[Argh! There's no edit feature...apologies for double posting.]

Rufus, just for fun, why don't you also do a feature on Sylvania and Marienburg? Neither are really "Empire," per se (Sylvania being a Vampire Count-ridden territory and Marienburg having seceded), but it'd be neat to be able to do a Marienburg-themed army, and it'd also be neat to just have some infomation available on Sylvania.

Just a thought.
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