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Author Topic: The value of weapons and training  (Read 4077 times)

Offline commandant

  • Posts: 7268
The value of weapons and training
« on: April 29, 2009, 08:10:17 PM »
your basic empire guy costs 5 points.   That is a guy with no armour WS 3 ST 3.   I am just wondering how much upgrades should cost.   For example they were talking about scouts with pistols.   For example do we assume that the following.

Pistollier:       M4 WS3 BS3 ST3 W1 I3 A1 L7 10 Points
Vet Pistollier:  M4 WS4 BS4 ST3 W1 I3 A1 L8
Unit Champ:   M4 WS3 BS3 ST3 W1 I3 A2 L7
Vet Champ:   M4 WS4 BS4 ST3 W1 I3 A2 L8
hand weapon, pistol



May be skirmishers (+1)
 If Skirmishers may have scouting (+2 points)
May have Light Armour (+1) Heavy Armour (+2), Full Plate (+3), a shield (+1)
May ride a horse (+5),Which may have barding (+2)
May have fast Calvary rules (+3)
May give up his pistol (-5 points)
May have Halbard (+1)
May have Spear (+1)
May have crossbow (+2)
May have bow (+1)
May have second pistol (+5)
May have second hand weapon (+1)
May Swap pistol for handgun (free)
May Swap pistol for Great weapon (free)

If on a horse may have a lance (+2)
If he has Heavy/Full Plate/Barding may not have scouting rule or Fast Calvary rule

May upgrade one model to unit champion (+10)
May upgrade one model to Standard Bearer (+5)
May upgrade one model to musician (+5)

Unit Champion may have one of +1 WS (Free)/+1 BS (Free) +1 L (Free)
Unit Champion may have +1 WS (+3)
Unit Champion may have +1 BS  (+3)
Unit Champion may only pay points for upgrade once.
The Unit Champion benefits from any Special Rules that benefit the unit.

May have Drilled Special Rule (+2)
May have Whites of Their Eyes Special Rule (+2)
May have Heavy Training Special Rule (+3)
May have Skilled Special Rule (+3)


May be veterans (+3)
May upgrade one model to unit Veteran champion (+10)
May upgrade one model to Veteran Standard Bearer (+5)
May upgrade one model to Veteran musician (+5)

All Upgrades available to normal troops are available to Veterans
Veteran Standard Bearer may have a magical standard (max 50 points)
If Veterans may have Iron Will Special rule (+2)
If Veterans may have Been Here Before Special Rule (+3)
If Veterans may have Master Marksmen Special Rule (+3)

Veteran Champion may have one of +1 WS (Free)/+1 BS (Free)
Veteran Champion may have +1 WS (+3)
Veteran Champion may have +1 BS  (+3)
Veteran Champion may have +1 L (+3)
Veteran Champion may only pay points for upgrade once.
[i/]

Special Rules:


Drilled:


Drilled is used to represent units that have spent considerable time on the practice field.   It is to show the effects of the greater discipline this that is caused.   

Effect:
1: If unit is using MOF weapon then the unit can move half distance and still five with no penalty or full distance and fire at -1 to hit
2: Unit alter facing for free prior to movement phase
3: Unit gains +1 AS for handweapon + Shield if on foot.   

Have Been Here Before
This rule represents the fact that veterans have fought through many battles and are used to killing

Effect: is the same as stubborn

Iron Will
This rule represents the fact that veterans have been know that keeping your nerve while all around you are loosing theirs is the best way to win.

Effect: is the same as cold blood rule

Master Marksmen
This rule represents the fact that veteran marksmen know the value of speed in reloading and also the need for movement

Effect:
May move and fire

Whites of Their Eyes
This rule represents the fact that the ranged weapon unit knows the damage their unit can cause if they hold their fire until the last moment.

Effect
Unit dose not suffer the -1 to hit when charged
Unit suffers -1 to hit in first round of Close Combat

Heavy Training
This rule represents heavy training undertaken by to increase their strength

Effect
+1 St

Skilled
The rule represents units training harder to achieve greater skill

Effect
+1 WS or +1 BS

Would that be an acceptable thing to consider
« Last Edit: April 29, 2009, 10:42:09 PM by commandant »

Offline Helgrim

  • Posts: 556
Re: The value of weapons and training
« Reply #1 on: April 30, 2009, 10:11:18 AM »
Does anything stop you having full plate fast cavalry or skirmishing horses?

Offline PhillyT

  • The Old Ones
  • Posts: 18333
  • Watching... always watching...
Re: The value of weapons and training
« Reply #2 on: April 30, 2009, 10:58:44 AM »
First off, a basic empire trooper with no armor or items is 3 points.  They get a weapon and LA and end up 5 points.  Swordsmen get a shield and stat bumps for 6 points.

Phil
Where did she touch you Eight? Show us on the doll.

Offline Gneisenau

  • Posts: 6597
  • Alleged Ungulate
Re: The value of weapons and training
« Reply #3 on: April 30, 2009, 11:44:12 AM »
PhillyT is right.

Does anything stop you having full plate fast cavalry or skirmishing horses?

Theoretically, no. In earlier editions, fast cav status was automatically cancelled once armour save improved beyond 5+. There's no such rule any more, but there's still no fast cavalry with a better armour save than 5+ (that I can think of). So, it's kind of a moot point.

On the issue of upgrade costs, you have to take synergies into account. For a unit of rank and file, pistols are of less worth than for a unit of scouts, since the rank and file unit will have more difficulties getting into weapon range.

Offline commandant

  • Posts: 7268
Re: The value of weapons and training
« Reply #4 on: April 30, 2009, 12:26:03 PM »
Does anything stop you having full plate fast cavalry or skirmishing horses?

Yes, units wearing heavy/ full plate or with barding can't have fast cavalry rule

skirmishing horses well no

Offline Helgrim

  • Posts: 556
Re: The value of weapons and training
« Reply #5 on: April 30, 2009, 06:54:20 PM »
Skirmisher horses are nearly as effective as fast cavalry though, plus with your rules i can make a 1+ armour save knight with a pair of pistols for 21 points per model, sold!

Also drilled is quite probably a bit too good

Offline der Hurenwiebel

  • Posts: 1079
  • Adversus Malum Pugnamus
Re: The value of weapons and training
« Reply #6 on: April 30, 2009, 07:10:41 PM »
commandant you are a man after my own heart
"DEfighter wrote:
Hey, trolls stay the hell out, this is a serious thread. Empire are cheese. 2 steam tanks, a war altar and 4 cannons is so obviously overpowered. Anyone who thinks otherwise clearly hasn't had their dragon shot down on turn 1 yet."

oh really now.  LOL ROFLMAO oh the irony.

Offline Dannyfave

  • Posts: 2168
  • A.K.A Skabilly Takamaster.
Re: The value of weapons and training
« Reply #7 on: April 30, 2009, 07:16:16 PM »
First off, a basic empire trooper with no armor or items is 3 points.  They get a weapon and LA and end up 5 points.  Swordsmen get a shield and stat bumps for 6 points.

Phil

This was going to be my point.
From feanor fire heart:


"In west virginia why couldnt they have sex ed and drivers ed on the same day?  Because its too much work for the donkey"

Offline commandant

  • Posts: 7268
Re: The value of weapons and training
« Reply #8 on: April 30, 2009, 10:40:38 PM »
Skirmisher horses are nearly as effective as fast cavalry though, plus with your rules i can make a 1+ armour save knight with a pair of pistols for 21 points per model, sold!

Also drilled is quite probably a bit too good

How?

Model                  5 points
Pistol                   5 points
pistol number 2     5 points
Horse                  5 points
Full Plate             3 points
Barding               2 points
Shield                 1 point

I am getting 26 points for 1+ save with two pistols

Offline sniperjolly

  • Posts: 289
Re: The value of weapons and training
« Reply #9 on: April 30, 2009, 11:05:56 PM »
why would you ever get the "skilled" rule when you could make them vets for the same points and get a better LD, BS or WS and a magic banner? (EDIT:oh, wait they stack!)

and don't EVER let outriders get thier hands on this... Fastcav moving and firing 18" with 3 handgun shots each at BS 5 base and BS 7 for the champ? No thank you! They would cost 30 points each, but you get the point.
What's up with that Phillyt guy... he's not what I would call '' pleasant''.

Offline commandant

  • Posts: 7268
Re: The value of weapons and training
« Reply #10 on: April 30, 2009, 11:22:01 PM »
why would you ever get the "skilled" rule when you could make them vets for the same points and get a better LD, BS or WS and a magic banner? (EDIT:oh, wait they stack!)

and don't EVER let outriders get thier hands on this... Fastcav moving and firing 18" with 3 handgun shots each at BS 5 base and BS 7 for the champ? No thank you! They would cost 30 points each, but you get the point.

As of yet there are no repeating weapons so they would have only one shot each with the Champion having two.   At 30 points each they are not really going to have a great effect on massed infantry (after all a unit of five can only kill a max of 6 a turn) however they would be deadly against light cavalry not so good against heavy though

Offline commandant

  • Posts: 7268
Re: The value of weapons and training
« Reply #11 on: April 30, 2009, 11:48:46 PM »
Also I think

May have pike (+3) (Double Handed)

Offline commandant

  • Posts: 7268
Re: The value of weapons and training
« Reply #12 on: May 05, 2009, 04:29:25 PM »
I might consider breaking things down i into groups like warlord did, any suggestions