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Offline Atchman

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New Article in the War Room: Beating the Lizard
« on: April 25, 2004, 10:08:48 PM »
Check out this newest article in the War Room.  It is an overview of how to beat the army of the Lizardmen.  This fine article was contributed by Kyle Workman.
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Offline Karl Schimmelfennig

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« Reply #1 on: April 27, 2004, 03:11:05 PM »
I think Kyle could have run it through a spellchecker or something before he submitted it as well.

A few comments and suggestions for Kyle - I'll do these point by point...

Terradons:
- Handgunners don't work very well against Terradons. It's 6's to hit at any range greater than 12", and let's face it, with a 20" charge range, Terradons won't be coming close. Stick to magic, or if you get a good shot, drop a mortar on them. They're only toughness 3 after all.
- If you start doing stuff like putting characters with war machines to combat Terradons, you're already dancing to the Lizardman player's tune. That's bad. Best thing to do is, as you said, keep them near your army and keep something nearby that can easily turn and get rid of them. Pegasus Captains and magic are fantastic for this.

The important thing is not to get too focused on keeping your war machines alive at all costs. Have a plan to deal with Terradons, but if you're spending more than 100 points to combat 3 Terradons worth 105 points, you're doing something wrong.

Against Saurus, flanking is the key. State troops will not beat Saurus warriors in a frontal charge, and even if they do win, probably won't do enough CR to make failing a break check a certainty. An empire army with lots of infantry should outnumber a Lustrian army by 2 to 1 - make use of that! Deploy your units in a solid wall, and keep detachments near the parent units. The Lizard player will not be able to spread himself wide enough to prevent flank charges by detachments - flanks will open up, and you need to be ready to take advantage of it. Even if you have to let the Lizard player charge you, by all means do so if it means you can get a detachment into his flanks. I wouldn't bother with trying to get units off to the side of the field, just use detachments. That's what they're for anyway.

Stegadons and Carnosaurs - I've never met a Lizard player who takes these against the Empire, unless they want their Stegadon to draw cannon fire for a turn or two (it can work, but it's an expensive way to do it). As Kyle said, Cannons.

Skinks - These little guys are the lifeblood of any Lizard army. Expect to see Chameleon Skinks hunting war machines or lone wizards, and normal Skinks to be harassing the flanks and marchblocking. If you use knights against Skinks (and you should) a unit of 5, no upgrades is more than enough. A pegasus captain can work well also - it's 7's to hit him with single shots on a stand and shoot, provided he charges from more than 12" away, so he's not going to get hurt by some wildly aimed blowpipes. Just be wary when going after skinks with knights that you're not going to be overrunning into a forest or some such other difficult terrain, or that a failed charge leaves you in range of some Kroxigors. A unit of skinks is a cheap price to pay to be rid of armoured knights. Expect to see skinks used as harrassment troops and bait.

Slann - It's a waste shooting at these guys - 4+ ward save normally, and against the Empire gunline, it would be a brave Slann indeed who'd leave home without a 2+ ward save. Expect to see this guy with a 2+, an extra spell (for a total of five), and the ability to store 2 dice, just like the Rod of Power, only, he doesn't have to roll for it.

If he's in a unit of Temple Guard, they'll probably have a standard that makes it -1 to hit them and the Slann, and if the Lizardman player goes all out, his Slann will have a fear causing banner. You do not want to let a unit like this hit your Greatswords, or any of your units for that matter. Because the unit is stubborn, it's hard to break - re-rolling 3d6 and checking on an 8, so try and whittle it away with shooting or combat.

If there is a unit of TG with a Slann, concentrate on killing the rest of the army as well. That single unit will cost up to 1000 points, so the rest of the army will be tiny. Take it out, and then concentrate on the Slann. Superior numbers will overwhelm him eventually.

Kroxigors - Keep your knights and Steam Tank away from these boys - it's like a Lizardman chainsaw once they get into combat. Shoot if you can, but if you have to fight, once you get past the first round of combat you should win. They strike last, and are only toughness 4. 3 wounds each though.

Salamanders - Whatever you do, don't send Flagellants at Salamanders. Without any armour, they will die so quickly you'll think it was the apocalypse they were raving on about. Keep your state troops clear as well - it's 4's to wound, and they only get a 6+ armour save. The best thing to do is focus on the skinks, not the Salamanders. It's worthwhile trying to drop a mortar on them, or a few magic missiles - anything with strength 3 or more has an excellent chance of killing skinks, and once they're all gone, it's a monster reaction check on a 5. Odds on they'll fail, and be in a bit of trouble.

Make no mistake, they are nasty as hell, but as with the Terradons, don't lose focus. The last thing you want to do is look up from the corpses of 3 salamanders to see 40 Saurus warriors about to impact on your lines.

I should also mention Cold One cavalry, since they were never mentioned in the article either. You'll sometimes see a unit of these consisting of 5 knights and a Scar Veteran as well. They usually have the banner that gives -1 to hit them with shooting, can charge up to 14" and cause fear. While expensive, they work similar to Bretonnians in that they will destroy pretty much any unit they impact against. Armour save is not that good however - 3+ standard, and handgun fire will make that 5+. This is one unit you definitely want to shoot before they hit your lines, as the amount of damage they can dish out is obscene.

I'd sum up the key to beating Lizards in one word - Knights.

The Lizardman army has good counters to war machines, shooting and hand to hand footsoldiers, but struggles against heavily armoured troops. Provided you keep them away from Kroxigors, you should be able to destroy anything you hit.
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Offline Kyle

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« Reply #2 on: April 27, 2004, 05:26:32 PM »
Karl:
I tried to give a all round tactic for beating Lizardmen what you CAN do and which ways I find it is best to combat Lizardmen.  Many of your points agree with what I have said about Lizardmen, (e.g. Saurus give them flank charges.)  I DID run it through a English spell checker and as I come from England the spelling is fine.  I have found Handgunners work well against Terradons, because if Handgunners fire at long range they need 5 and 6 anyway.
Also all throughout the article Empire Knights are mentioned as a main key to beating Lizardmen, but you CAN'T rely on just one unit to win the game, which is why I gave tactics for different units.
I find it really annoying when people criticise peoples work when they have spent a LONG time on it.
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Offline queek

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« Reply #3 on: April 27, 2004, 05:57:12 PM »
Kyle, you may have run a spell checker over it, but if you read it, there are some blatent errors in wording.

Offline Kyle

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« Reply #4 on: April 27, 2004, 06:03:38 PM »
Could you give me a couple of examples Queek?
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Offline queek

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« Reply #5 on: April 27, 2004, 06:19:17 PM »
"loose quarter of their numbers "  should be "lose"

"have a tick solid wall of men "  *insert chigger jokes here*

"war bread lizards "  good for meals on the battlefield?

there's also a host of punctuation errors, run-on sentences, and at least one open parentheses.

Offline Kyle

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« Reply #6 on: April 27, 2004, 06:23:50 PM »
:lol: D'oh :lol:
Sorry about that, if you ever get time you can change those bits, if not sorry.
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Offline PygmyHippo

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New Article in the War Room: Beating the Lizard
« Reply #7 on: April 27, 2004, 07:10:55 PM »
Quote
I find it really annoying when people criticise peoples work when they have spent a LONG time on it.


All the more reason to criticise.  When great time is put into a project, greater is the need for accuracy.  This is why books, magazines and newspapers have editors and proofreaders.  Critique shouldn't be taken as a negative (even if it's "negative"), it's how we all make the work better.  A big step is learning to take criticism well, especially solid, constructive criticism as above.  Perhaps rather than asking for others to make corrections to your work as they get the time, it might be better for you to re-write, taking all criticism into consideration, and re-submitting.

All told, it's an interesting overview regarding Lizardmen.  Worth exploring a good bit deeper.  Perhaps adding some graphics or figures to illustrate points?

Marcus

Offline Kyle

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« Reply #8 on: April 27, 2004, 08:12:17 PM »
If I can resubmit it I will do so, I will get to work on it now.
If you can see any thing else the article needs please tell me.
Also I feel I have been too nasty to Karl and I wish to apologise as a lot of his points will help me with the re-work of the article.  So I am sorry Karl, I will include all the Lizardmen units this time.
Look out for the revised article soon.
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Offline Atchman

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« Reply #9 on: April 27, 2004, 10:50:42 PM »
Now you see why I don't post things very quickly?  Sometimes I need to edit them before they hit the site and add some things to them.  I posted this article in haste due to my busy work schedule.
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Offline Karl Schimmelfennig

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« Reply #10 on: April 27, 2004, 11:49:10 PM »
Kyle, I'm not criticising you, at least, not in a negative sense. I'm glad to see someone has taken the time to write up an article to combat my boyz - I was starting to think the Empire didn't hold them in high enough regard.  :D

I'm just offering constructive criticism. I'm trying to suggest what I, as a Lizardman player, would hate to see most when facing the Empire, and what tactics would give me the most trouble.
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Offline Kyle

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« Reply #11 on: April 28, 2004, 07:13:31 AM »
@Karl:
I realise that now and would like to thank you, like PygmyHippo said:
Quote
Critique shouldn't be taken as a negative (even if it's "negative"), it's how we all make the work better.

@Atchman:
I am currently reworking the article and will have it posted to you soon.
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Offline Atchman

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« Reply #12 on: April 28, 2004, 12:57:08 PM »
Skinks - These little guys are the lifeblood of any Lizard army. Expect to see Chameleon Skinks hunting war machines or lone wizards, and normal Skinks to be harassing the flanks and marchblocking. If you use knights against Skinks (and you should) a unit of 5, no upgrades is more than enough. A pegasus captain can work well also - it's 7's to hit him with single shots on a stand and shoot, provided he charges from more than 12" away, so he's not going to get hurt by some wildly aimed blowpipes. Just be wary when going after skinks with knights that you're not going to be overrunning into a forest or some such other difficult terrain, or that a failed charge leaves you in range of some Kroxigors. A unit of skinks is a cheap price to pay to be rid of armoured knights. Expect to see skinks used as harrassment troops and bait.

I totally agree with this point.  You've got to get rid of the screen before the rest of your shooting becomes effective.  Vanilla knights are the bane of Skinks, because the Skinks must rank up on the knights.  It you charge correctly, you shouldn't have to worry about overunning into a forest.  What you do need to worry about is overrunning into a formed Saurus unit or some Kroxigors.
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Offline Atchman

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« Reply #13 on: April 28, 2004, 01:07:13 PM »
Terradons:
Quote
- Handgunners don't work very well against Terradons. It's 6's to hit at any range greater than 12", and let's face it, with a 20" charge range, Terradons won't be coming close. Stick to magic, or if you get a good shot, drop a mortar on them. They're only toughness 3 after all.
- If you start doing stuff like putting characters with war machines to combat Terradons, you're already dancing to the Lizardman player's tune. That's bad. Best thing to do is, as you said, keep them near your army and keep something nearby that can easily turn and get rid of them. Pegasus Captains and magic are fantastic for this.

The important thing is not to get too focused on keeping your war machines alive at all costs. Have a plan to deal with Terradons, but if you're spending more than 100 points to combat 3 Terradons worth 105 points, you're doing something wrong.


Another total agreement!  The secret of whacking these dudes is to use combined arms.  Shoot a little, block them with fast stuff, etc.  You cannot allow these little devils into your gunline or on your flanks with impunity.

>Place a unit of knights near your artillery, and then move them forward on the first turn about 6".  That prevents the LM player from getting too greedy with his terradons.  

>Of course the Pegasus Captain with the Mexican Standoff tactic is the best solution.  

>Shoot a hellblaster at them!  

>Remember they only get their automatic rally if they use their special attack.  If they start fleeing from normal means, they rarely rally.
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Offline Atchman

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« Reply #14 on: April 28, 2004, 01:10:40 PM »
Quote
Salamanders - Whatever you do, don't send Flagellants at Salamanders. Without any armour, they will die so quickly you'll think it was the apocalypse they were raving on about. Keep your state troops clear as well - it's 4's to wound, and they only get a 6+ armour save. The best thing to do is focus on the skinks, not the Salamanders. It's worthwhile trying to drop a mortar on them, or a few magic missiles - anything with strength 3 or more has an excellent chance of killing skinks, and once they're all gone, it's a monster reaction check on a 5. Odds on they'll fail, and be in a bit of trouble.

Make no mistake, they are nasty as hell, but as with the Terradons, don't lose focus. The last thing you want to do is look up from the corpses of 3 salamanders to see 40 Saurus warriors about to impact on your lines.


You must kill these guys if you have lots of infantry.  They will take your army totally apart.  I usually edge some knights up just a bit to be able to charge them early in the game, while shooting them with artillery.  A hellblaster is more fearsome than salamanders, but the salamanders have incredible movement and can take advantage of that.  A well played Lizardman army is like fighting against Wood Elves.
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Offline Atchman

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« Reply #15 on: April 28, 2004, 01:14:52 PM »
Quote
Against Saurus, flanking is the key. State troops will not beat Saurus warriors in a frontal charge, and even if they do win, probably won't do enough CR to make failing a break check a certainty. An empire army with lots of infantry should outnumber a Lustrian army by 2 to 1 - make use of that! Deploy your units in a solid wall, and keep detachments near the parent units. The Lizard player will not be able to spread himself wide enough to prevent flank charges by detachments - flanks will open up, and you need to be ready to take advantage of it. Even if you have to let the Lizard player charge you, by all means do so if it means you can get a detachment into his flanks. I wouldn't bother with trying to get units off to the side of the field, just use detachments. That's what they're for anyway.


I find Saurus warriors to be some of the best infantry in the game.  They have almost every advantage except a high weapon skill.  The way to beat them obviously is flanks, but you can destroy them the "normal" way if you use combined arms.  The one weakness of Saurus Warriors is ST4 shooting.  They die as easily as a 6 pt Orc!  Chip away at them with artillery, handguns, crossbows, etc. until you safely outnumber them and have more ranks-then, and only then engage them.  Most LM players realize that they will be beaten and so avoid contact after that moment.  That allows you to shoot them up some more!
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Offline Atchman

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« Reply #16 on: April 28, 2004, 01:19:44 PM »
Quote
I should also mention Cold One cavalry, since they were never mentioned in the article either. You'll sometimes see a unit of these consisting of 5 knights and a Scar Veteran as well. They usually have the banner that gives -1 to hit them with shooting, can charge up to 14" and cause fear. While expensive, they work similar to Bretonnians in that they will destroy pretty much any unit they impact against. Armour save is not that good however - 3+ standard, and handgun fire will make that 5+. This is one unit you definitely want to shoot before they hit your lines, as the amount of damage they can dish out is obscene.


These dudes are nasty!  They are easily shot to pieces and that is why you don't see them used very much.  To shooty Empire armies or Weed Elves, they are easy VP.   Beware, the LM player has a banner that allows them to move an extra 1d6"!  They can risk moving forward full moves every turn, so make certain that you have a counter for this eventuality.  Empire Knights on the charge can beat them, but if you fail your fear test you are toast!  Remember they are almost as expensive as an Ogre, but die like Orc cavalry!  Shoot them, magic them, take them out. Lots of VP!
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Offline Atchman

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« Reply #17 on: April 28, 2004, 01:28:52 PM »
Quote
Kroxigors - Keep your knights and Steam Tank away from these boys - it's like a Lizardman chainsaw once they get into combat. Shoot if you can, but if you have to fight, once you get past the first round of combat you should win. They strike last, and are only toughness 4. 3 wounds each though.


The best counter for these I've found is ranked up infantry.  Three Kroxigors will be hard pressed to beat a ranked up infantry unit.  They just don't hit easily enough (unlike Minotaurs!) to cause enough wounds.  

I have charged them with IC knights many times.  Usually I have a hero in there to give me the vital whacks needed.  You must calculate that you can kill two out of the three of them or you might be in trouble.  Even if they hit you the two times that is "normal", you have a decent chance of saving anyway.  And they "could" fail to wound....but I wouldn't count on that.  A flank attack on Kroxigors with knights is a grand idea.  

I've used the Pegasus Captain many times to take these guys out.  I flank charge the one on the end, kill it with my 3 ST 6 attacks and 2 ST 4 attacks, and then they are in CR trouble.  Even if they hold, you still have a chance with 5 ST 4 attacks hitting before the Kroxigors.  Perhaps some of your buddies could join the show around then.
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Offline Atchman

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« Reply #18 on: April 28, 2004, 01:32:39 PM »
As you can see from my comments, I've played against the Lizarmen many times.  My formula for defeating them is pretty easy.  Get rid of the skink screen, kill all the fast stuff like Cold One Riders, Terradons and Salamanders and concentrate ST 4 shooting on the Saurus infantry.  

Knights and ST 4 shooting are the bane of all Lizardmen armies.  Use the knights to keep the fast stuff away from your shooters, and the shooters to keep the heavy stuff away from your knights.
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« Reply #19 on: April 28, 2004, 02:15:50 PM »
Okay kyle I have something to add, at this part of the article:

It has come to my attention that two really good Lizardmen combination are being used, these are ?Flying Skink of Doom? which is a Skink Chief with 2 hand weapons, Cloak of Feathers and the Blessed Spawning of Sotek, (Allowing the Skink character to fly 20 inches and have 4 attacks normally, 5 attacks on the charge) and the other is ?Jaguar Saurus of Doom? which is either a Saurus Oldblood or Saurus Scar-Veteran with a nasty weapon and Charm of the Jaguar Warrior, (Allowing the Saurus to move 9 inches or mach move/charge 18 inches.)

It gets really confusing and it goes on for about 5 lines with just comma after comma.

I suggest rewording it in as:

Two of the more common lizardman hero combinations taken are: the "Flying Skink of Doom" and "Jaguer Saurus of Doom". The FSoD is a skink chief armed with 2 handweapons, Cloak of Feathers and Spawning of Sotek; giving the skink a 20 inch flying movement with 4 attacks, 5 attacks on the charge. The JSoD is a Oldblood or Scar-Vetern saurus armed with a nasty weapon, Maiming Shield and Charm of the Jaguar Warrior; giving the saurus a 9 inch basic and a 18 inch charge, with 8/9 attacks at strenght 5.

Anyways just something I thought you should know.

So just *think* short sentances or you get carried away and makes it had for the reader to understand the point yoru trying to get across. If you need anyone to proof read the updated article, I'll be more then happy to help, just drop me a email at: eley_stewart@hotmail.com

cheers,

stewart
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Offline Atchman

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« Reply #20 on: April 28, 2004, 07:31:22 PM »
It is obvious that none of us can spell :oops:   Even the editors! :roll:
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« Reply #21 on: April 28, 2004, 10:01:27 PM »
Wow thanks for the help Atchman and Deepfat, you have both been a LOT of help.
Deepfat would you mind if I took your rewording as it is and add it straight to the article?  I will of course mention that you Atchman and Karl helped me to write the article.
I will proof read the article myself first Deepfat and then send it on to yourself to be rechecked, is this ok?.
Thank you all for the help. :wink:  :D
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« Reply #22 on: April 29, 2004, 12:24:18 AM »
This is what the Imperial office is good for, it lets people offer help BEFORE it is posted as an artice in the warroom or whatever.

Use it, I think its a good system.
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Offline Atchman

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« Reply #23 on: April 29, 2004, 12:31:57 AM »
I've never even looked in there.   :roll:
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Offline Karl Schimmelfennig

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« Reply #24 on: April 29, 2004, 09:25:25 AM »
Quote from: Atchman
Quote
Salamanders - Whatever you do, don't send Flagellants at Salamanders. Without any armour, they will die so quickly you'll think it was the apocalypse they were raving on about. Keep your state troops clear as well - it's 4's to wound, and they only get a 6+ armour save. The best thing to do is focus on the skinks, not the Salamanders. It's worthwhile trying to drop a mortar on them, or a few magic missiles - anything with strength 3 or more has an excellent chance of killing skinks, and once they're all gone, it's a monster reaction check on a 5. Odds on they'll fail, and be in a bit of trouble.

Make no mistake, they are nasty as hell, but as with the Terradons, don't lose focus. The last thing you want to do is look up from the corpses of 3 salamanders to see 40 Saurus warriors about to impact on your lines.


You must kill these guys if you have lots of infantry.  They will take your army totally apart.  I usually edge some knights up just a bit to be able to charge them early in the game, while shooting them with artillery.  A hellblaster is more fearsome than salamanders, but the salamanders have incredible movement and can take advantage of that.  A well played Lizardman army is like fighting against Wood Elves.


The trick I frequently use with Salamanders is to back pedal against an enemy unit showing interest in them. Move back 6 inches in any direction (gotta love skirmishing) and keep blasting out the hits. My usual deployment has some Kroxies nearby, swarms in front of the Salamanders and the Salamanders blasting out fiery doom over the top of the swarms. Rather transparent, but very effective. Hard to get rid of too.

I don't mind using Cold Ones - I've used them a few times to great effect. They are hideously vulnerable to shooting however, and worth an absolute arseload of points if they get killed. Usually you won't see these guys on the table unless there is a horde of other stuff worth shooting at, such as a Stegadon, Carnosaur or frequently both. Krog-gar's special army list can be deadly if you're not ready for it.

A 3+ armour save on heavy cavalry though seems waaaay too low. Particularly when it's 35 points a pop.  :?

And Atch, you haven't looked in the war room? Half the articles in there are by you for chrissake.  :shock:
Famous Quotes from History:

"To beat the French."

The Iron Duke summarises his battle plan at Waterloo.