Topic: Core Options for the Empire

[commandant]

State Troops


Swordsmen -  Points 6
M4 WS4 BS0 S3 T3 I4 A1 L7

Equipment:
Handweapon, Light Armour, Shield

Options
May have heavy armour +1 point.

Special Rules:
Dashing.

Halbardiers - 5

M4 WS4 BS0 S3 T3 I4 A1 L7

Equipment:
Halbard, Handweapon, Light Armour

Options
May have heavy armour +1 point.

Special Rule
For the Empire, Trained

Pikemen   - 8

M4 WS3 BS0 S3 T3 I4 A1 L7

Equipment:
Handweapon, Light Armour, Pike

Options
May have heavy armour +1 point.

Special Rules
Turtle

Spearmen - 5

M4 WS3 BS3 S3 T3 I4 A1 L7

Equipment:
Handweapon, Light Armour, Shield, Spear

Options
May have heavy armour +1 point.

Special Rules.
Reaction.

Handgunners - 8
M4 WS3 BS3 S3 T3 I4 A1 L7

Equipment:
Handweapon, Handgun

Options
May have light armour +1 point or heavy armour +2.

Special Rules:
Fire by rank.

Reaction
My idea is that spearmen do not form a solid wall of spears, the empire have pikemen for that but rather throw the spears at an advancing foe.   That spearmen would be like the roman legions.   Therefore this rule allows spearmen to throw their spears as a charge reaction.

Turtle
This rule allows pikemen to form a kind of turtle, protecting itself from attack..
The unit in turtle mode may not move but all sides count as the front.   If attacked from front and side at the same time it counts as having two fronts.   Should this happen the player must decide which front he is sending his attacks to.

For the Empire
This rule represents the dedication of the standing forces of the empire.
1: The entire front rank of a halbard unit always fights, regardless of deaths.
2: Ignore outnumbering from fear causing foe if the basic unit Strenght of a single model is equal to their own (US1)

Trained
This rule represents the extra training that Halbards get because they are the standing army of the empire.
1: Once pre game a halbard unit can do a forced march of 3X their movement (This can be a charge)
2: May use leaders generalship from 12 + d6 inches.


Dashing
This is used to represent the flamboyant nature of swordsmen.
A swordsman champion must always accept a challenge.   If there is no swordsman champion then any man front the front rank may (and must) accept a challenge, but may not issue one.   Swordsmen get +1 A and +1 WS in a challenge

Fire By rank
This rule represents the training of handgunners for the front rank to fire while the rear rank is loading and then for the rear rank to move through the front rank and fire.
Handgunners may move and fire though only the front rank may fire, even if the rear rank could normally fire

Militia[/size=3]

Archers    6

M4 WS3 BS3 S3 T3 I4 A1 L7

Equipment:
Handweapon, Bow
May have longbow +2 points
May upgrade to huntsmen +2 points

Special rules:
Skirmish, scouts if huntsmen

Crossbowmen 8

M4 WS3 BS3 S3 T3 I4 A1 L7

Equipment:
Handweapon, Crossbow

Free Company - 4 points

M4 WS3 BS3 S3 T3 I4 A1 L6

Equipment:
Handweapon, Extra hand weapon
May have light armour +1 point
May have pistol + 5 points
May have second pistol + 10 points
May skirmish +2 points
Unit Standard Bearer may carry banner of the village +15 points.   Banner of the Village gives them the cold bloodied special rule.

Knightly Orders - 21

M4 WS4 BS3 S3 T3 I4 A1 L8

Equipment:
Lance, Heavy Armour, Shield, barded warhorse,
May have Full Plate Armour +2
May be upgraded to Inner Circle +3
May exchange Lance and Shield for Greatweapon (Free)

Special Rules:
May take one Knightly trait - (P.S. need to write them out somewhere)
Do not count toward min core unless the army is being led by Grand Templar
If inner Circle they get +1 S and +1 WS but count as a Special

So here is the complete list of Empire core for the 8th ed.   None of these units are overpowered, I believe, but they paint a picture of what I think the empire should be.   An army that is mainly infantry with support from the horse rather than the all knightly order lists that we are seeing these days.

[Freman Bloodglaive]

It's not too bad from where I sit. Someone more experienced should comment before you take that as gospel though.

The Grand Master making Knights count to minimum core means you can still do a Knight army.

You can leave the BS at 3, they don't have ranged weapons so that really only represents the fact that they're trained fighters who could use bows if they had them.

[Derek Contyre]

Knightly Orders - 21

M4 WS4 BS3 S3 T3 I4 A1 L8

Equipment:
Lance, Heavy Armour, Shield, barded warhorse,
May have Full Plate Armour +2
May be upgraded to Inner Circle +3
May exchange Lance and Shield for Greatweapon (Free)

Special Rules:
May take one Knightly trait - (P.S. need to write them out somewhere)
Do not count toward min core unless the army is being led by Grand Templar
If inner Circle they get +1 S and +1 WS but count as a Special
 

Why is it every post about changing the imperial knights has then decreased to heavy armour???

Imperial knights who fought for the holy roman empire back in the fifteenth century wore full plate armour when fighting on foot and horseback.

I dunno where all this heavy armour stuff comes from and would like it go back where it came from.

I like the idea about not counting towards the minimum core and also the knightly traits, that would be interesting if done right. The fluff rreasons for that alone would be excellent. What they could be however is hard to think of now.

[commandant]

I have some ideas, making them immune to fear, make them frenzied and stuff   The reason I think they should have heavy armour is for expense.   I think that maybe normal knights should have heavy armour and elite knights have full plate armour

[Derek Contyre]

Thats just it though, there are no elite knights otherwise give them 2 attacks and ws five mwah hahahahaha

[commandant]

Thats just it though, there are no elite knights otherwise give them 2 attacks and ws five mwah hahahahaha

I would feel, given the expense of armour, that when one speaks of elite knights they are not talking of knights with greater killing power but knights that have a greater social standing and therefore are able to afford the more expensive armour. 

This is quite a small point though, what did you think of the other changes

[Derek Contyre]

The pikemen and their turtle rule, I think more of a rule representing their spearwall instead of a turtle formation. The turtle rule doesn't make sense to me, it would only increase their awesome and its difficult to divide a unit of pikes across two fronts.

I like the equipment options i.e. +1 for heavy armour etc.

The special rule trained, I dunno marching has that kind of move covered and if we get to march 12 inches with humans the new skaven players will bemoan it for ever, not to mention the numerous dark elf and vampire counts players.

I can hear it now; "oh that unit of humans charged my uber squad of unkillable death and killed a couple, I almost lost that game but my lucky roles with my vampire lord auto hitting with s7 saved the game for me." lol at them.

Apart from that they are ok.

[burad]

Fire by rank, by other names, is what handgunners and arquebusiers did. 
Empire handgun troops should get some kind of benefit to their fire for ranks. 
Not sure what it should be, perhaps 1 additional shot per rank?
'Cause historically, handgunners/arquebusiers stood in blocks, not lines, due to the time it took to reload.  As a reult of this, however, they were able to keep up a constant rate of fire instead of having volleys followed by nothing until the next volley.
 

[eSBeN84]

There's a lot of things i don't think that would work.
First there's the pikemen, they are too "old fashion" for the empire.(they were used by the greeks in the bronce age) And they would have used the Phalanx formation and not the Testudo(turtoise) formation.
Second I think that heavy armour is a little too elite for empirial grunts.
And I also feel that the empire is a "base army". Too many ws4 core choises and special rules would ruin that.
But maybe thats just me.

[Derek Contyre]

There's a lot of things i don't think that would work.
First there's the pikemen, they are too "old fashion" for the empire.(they were used by the greeks in the bronce age) And they would have used the Phalanx formation and not the Testudo(turtoise) formation.

LOL so your saying that pikes were only limited to the greeks in the bronze age?

What about the 18 foot sarrisa that the macedonians had fighting the persians under alexander? or the Roman republican legions fighting the pike walls near thessalonica?
Or the 16th century pike and shot armies where pike regiments would fight with smaller units of arqebusiers and musketeers in order to over come their adversaries?
Even in the 18th century before the musket totally took over the pike was still there to ward of cavalry charges.

The holy roman empire, which our beloved empire is based off had the elite regiments of Landscnekts who fought in the majority with pike and shot.
I think if we get pikemen they should be a special choice with the option for heavy armour. or they are core but dont count to the minimum core selection.

[commandant]

There's a lot of things i don't think that would work.
First there's the pikemen, they are too "old fashion" for the empire.(they were used by the greeks in the bronce age) And they would have used the Phalanx formation and not the Testudo(turtoise) formation.
Second I think that heavy armour is a little too elite for empirial grunts.
And I also feel that the empire is a "base army". Too many ws4 core choises and special rules would ruin that.
But maybe thats just me.

The point is the Empire is not a base army.   The Empire State troops are meant to be highly trained and skilled soldiers.    Think Roman Legions I think.   That is where the empire differ from other armies.   They are trained, drilled and controlled.   I don't think heavy armour, if you are willing to pay for it, is too much to give to a man you have spent about five years training.   The same with WS4.   WS3 is average but these guys are above average, they are skilled, drilled and trained.   Lets not forget that.   Oh and on the pike.   It was used up until they bayonet was invented.   In 1691 both sides used pikes at the Battle of the Boyne and during the 30 years war.   Why because it is a great weapon for stopping horses if you are trained.   Why should the Empire get it, because they are trained.

[eSBeN84]

Derek Contyre: I stand corrected, you are right. But i still don't think that our infantry should have more than light armour(with the exception of a single unit of veterans and the Greatswords.)

Commandant: Have you read the bret army book? thier men-at-arms are ws2, I belive the extra training is what gives us ws3.

[Derek Contyre]

Ah but their peasants are just that: peasants. . . not trained for 5-10 years just "conscripted" into the army and given a weapon.

But how does our "trained" status reflect upon our missile troops? who have the same weapon skill as our melee troops but fight with bow, crossbow and handgun?
Our militia, who in some referances are mentioned as experienced bandits/ local militias/ conscripted peasants, have weapon skill three as well. But then if we got weapon skill four then what would elves have? ws5?

I think full plate for the greatswordsmen and have the single statline and cost for an individual state trooper with a handweapon and light armour for say 4pts.
Then allow weapon options like halberd, spear, shield, bow, longbow, crossbow and handgun.