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Author Topic: The Halberd  (Read 18194 times)

Offline Rominho

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The Halberd
« on: August 28, 2009, 06:30:28 PM »
Hello everyone

    We all agree that halberdiers cannot compete effectively against their state troop homologues. In the rule book, it's said that halberds can be used both as spears or as axes, so I think the most sensible change to it would to make it an "attack in two ranks" weapon, the +1 strength modifier applying only for the first rank. It would of course remain a two-handed weapon, and lose the extra rank when charging.
     The guys in front use its axe side and the ones in the back jab, using it as a spear. This rule would correspond to the description in the rulebook, to all the illustrations and to the models. (It's even more flagrant with the phoenix guards, with their halberds twice as tall as they are).  This new rule could represent the double-use of the halberd, the reason why they were so popular among infantry, both historically and fluff-wise.

      While I'm at it, concerning the new army book, I think our army is good as it is, concerning fluff and competitivity ( with the exception maybe of the engineer creations, the creator was probably high when he designed, I can see no other reasonable explanation for bomb dropping pidgeons or a robotic horse that would unrealistic even for modern-day technology). We should perhaps have the engineer as an upgrade for warmachines, since the only two 7th edition engineers ever seen on a warhammer battlefield was in the white dwarf battle-report and a dead one used as decoration on a dragon's base.
     I have been reading crazy suggestions making us humans inhumanly skilled warriors, remember that we rely on tactics to win.

     Sorry about that, that was kind of off-subject, please let me know what your thoughts are on this new halberd.

Offline Captain Tineal

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Re: The Halberd
« Reply #1 on: September 04, 2009, 06:05:24 PM »
I think it would give my Chaos Warriors an extra 5-7 attacks depending on frontage, and make them very broken.

The problem isn't with the Halberd rules, it is the fact that Empire Halberdiers don't survive long enough to make their return attacks when charged.  They need something to increase their resillience.
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Offline der Hurenwiebel

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Re: The Halberd
« Reply #2 on: October 01, 2009, 06:53:47 PM »
easiest is to give the weapon armour piercing, across the game.  Then simply allow the halberdiers to buy heavy armour for an extra point, without taking away their shield option.  This allows them to get to combat be a bit more survivable and definately able to get rid of lightly armoured troops.  All without complicating things or breaking the army concept.
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Hey, trolls stay the hell out, this is a serious thread. Empire are cheese. 2 steam tanks, a war altar and 4 cannons is so obviously overpowered. Anyone who thinks otherwise clearly hasn't had their dragon shot down on turn 1 yet."

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Offline Bunkka-pop

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Re: The Halberd
« Reply #3 on: October 03, 2009, 07:46:27 PM »
...without taking away their shield option...

Thus making them being often used as 3+ AS swordsmen? Nope thanks.
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Offline der Hurenwiebel

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Re: The Halberd
« Reply #4 on: October 04, 2009, 06:16:58 AM »
3+ as swordsmen?!?! weren't we just talking about halberdiers???

I'm talking about halberdiers with a 4+ save as they march towards combat from ballistic fire than as they get into combat a 5+ as with a +1S armour piercing weapon. 

Swordsmen are a different profile my friend.

Oh I see you think that because the basic profile says that they are armed with a hand weapon as a matter of course it means that they will always have one as a matter of course, this is not the case.  The Halberd is technically a weapon upgrade and as such while the soldier has it he will not use anything but it in CC. 

If you play with guys that would abuse this kind of thing I suggest getting a different class of gaming mates.
"DEfighter wrote:
Hey, trolls stay the hell out, this is a serious thread. Empire are cheese. 2 steam tanks, a war altar and 4 cannons is so obviously overpowered. Anyone who thinks otherwise clearly hasn't had their dragon shot down on turn 1 yet."

oh really now.  LOL ROFLMAO oh the irony.

Offline KiTe

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Re: The Halberd
« Reply #5 on: October 04, 2009, 01:54:47 PM »
If you give 'em S3 second rank attacks, then spearmen would not be used, cause halberdiers would be better for the same cost.

I think, that they need to receive the special rule that would represent that they are the most common troop type through out the Empire.
For example, "free" full command upgrade to show that there is a plenty of halberdier sergeants, bannerbears and musicians and they are not needed to be additionally hired  :smile2:
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Offline Derek Contyre

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Re: The Halberd
« Reply #6 on: October 11, 2009, 09:28:38 AM »
No we cant change the way the halberd works as it is not a problem.
It is our halberdiers that are the problem. light armour with no shield. The reason the other units with halberds in the game are good choices is because of their statistics and special rules.

Pheonix guard for HE, heavy armour, cause fear, ASF and a 4+ ward save, ws5.
Dark elf black guard, champion can take s6 magic weapon, heavy armour, eternal hatred, 2A and ws5.
Chaos warriors with halberds. Chaos armour(4+save), brutal statline. options for marks to make them even better. . . frenzy, -1 weapon skill in bsb and to shoot, ward save, ITP and so on.

Notice how these units use halberds effectively and still win combats. Our detachment system is supposed to make up for this but with a 6+ save it doesn't cut it. everything is s4 and higher these days. We need a state troop rule for the halberdiers, like spearwall for our halberdiers and spearmen. Both troops get to fight with an extra rank in combat. spearmen get three and halberdiers gat two and so on. Also if you buy them shields then they can use a shield save in combat. so 5+ save. maybe increase their points to six and then the shield is +1??? I would pay that for what they effectively did in real life.

And no it wont be broken to the HE spearmen and their 3ranks because they have ASF.
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Offline scarletsquig

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Re: The Halberd
« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2009, 10:46:32 AM »
Oh I see you think that because the basic profile says that they are armed with a hand weapon as a matter of course it means that they will always have one as a matter of course, this is not the case.  The Halberd is technically a weapon upgrade and as such while the soldier has it he will not use anything but it in CC. 

If you play with guys that would abuse this kind of thing I suggest getting a different class of gaming mates.

No, the halberdiers can use sword + shield whenever they want to.

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Offline Derek Contyre

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Re: The Halberd
« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2009, 01:54:58 PM »
I think that is magic weapons also, if you buy a magic weapon with a hero/lord then it replaces his hand weapon.
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Offline Otaku

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Re: The Halberd
« Reply #9 on: November 15, 2009, 03:12:14 AM »
I think KiTe is thinking along the right line.  ANy change to their profile or weapon rules would make them the proferred troop type, making sprearmen the ones nobady ever takes.

I think the only way to solve the problem is to give them some kind of special rule that would help them but not lessen the usefulness of the other troop types.  Maybe a deployment trick that would give the army more flexability, maybe the free command that KiTe suggested, Or maybe since they are the most common type there could be special banners or charactors that could only be used withen a Halberdier unit. 

Maybe, since they are the most common troop type, professional, and well drilled they could have a third detachment if a charactor is with them or if the army is led by a GotE....   That would be a big bonus but would be offset by the points you would have to pay for the hero.

... just a few ideas of the top of my head.

Offline Sir Lukas von Markov

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Re: The Halberd
« Reply #10 on: December 15, 2009, 10:05:46 AM »
why not leave the halberd as it is and give our halberdiers heavy armour?? then they have the same save in combat as the spearman, and s4 to the spears two rank fighting, if that were done they would certainly compete with the other two in my armies, spears for defending, halberdiers for tougher foes and swordsmen for the higher skilled opponents, they would balance, well they would in my books.  :happy:
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Offline Derek Contyre

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Re: The Halberd
« Reply #11 on: December 15, 2009, 10:16:14 AM »
heavy armour is a viable option, but what of those who don't wish their soldiers to walk around in heavy armour? Who wants to looke like a bretonnian knight with a halberd?

I dont

simple answer, have our halberdiers fight with two ranks(historical useage) and repalce our spearmen with pikes.

done and dusted.
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Offline Warlord

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Re: The Halberd
« Reply #12 on: December 15, 2009, 10:52:27 AM »
heavy armour is a viable option, but what of those who don't wish their soldiers to walk around in heavy armour? Who wants to looke like a bretonnian knight with a halberd?

I dont

simple answer, have our halberdiers fight with two ranks(historical useage) and repalce our spearmen with pikes.

done and dusted.

And what then for those like me who love their spearmen and don't want them to be taken away?

And it should be an option for heavy armour. Not compulsory. So if you don't want them to walk around in it, the don't buy the upgrade for them. As for being like Bretonnian knights - really?
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Offline Fandir Nightshade

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Re: The Halberd
« Reply #13 on: December 15, 2009, 03:57:55 PM »
Like I posted in all the hundreds upon hundreds of halberd topics....give them stubborn.

Ld 7 no immune to psychology stubborn halberdiers would be the blast...It would make sense to make them large units like 30 guys. They would quite often still fail their stubborn roll but sometimes they hold like in all the fluff stories in the army book....

Battle of Hel Fenn where the halberdiers hold the line till the knights of the Reiksguard saved the day with a glorious flank charge. I bet you would see at least two large blocks of halberdiers in each empire army just because of the stubborn, they would even get the occasional S4 attack in subsequent rounds.


Offline Warlord

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Re: The Halberd
« Reply #14 on: December 16, 2009, 12:53:29 AM »
Like I posted in all the hundreds upon hundreds of halberd topics....give them stubborn.

Ld 7 no immune to psychology stubborn halberdiers would be the blast...It would make sense to make them large units like 30 guys. They would quite often still fail their stubborn roll but sometimes they hold like in all the fluff stories in the army book....

Battle of Hel Fenn where the halberdiers hold the line till the knights of the Reiksguard saved the day with a glorious flank charge. I bet you would see at least two large blocks of halberdiers in each empire army just because of the stubborn, they would even get the occasional S4 attack in subsequent rounds.

I think I said it before, and I will say it again - GREAT IDEA!
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Offline Wolfgang aus Wien

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Re: The Halberd
« Reply #15 on: December 16, 2009, 02:57:22 PM »
Not even Arnold Schwarzenegger would be able to wield both a halberd AND a shield at the same time......

Anyway, what's 'broken' isn't the Halberdiers (or the Swordsmen, for that matter), what's broken is the basic army selection process.
There are way too many troop types being classified as 'core' which should be 'special', too many as 'special' which should be 'rare' and too many 'rares' which should never even show up in games under 5,000 points.
This is a common problem with wargames in general (fantasy wargames in particular) and leads to very top heavy armies overstuffed with elites, but short on basic guys.
It has something to do with how many figures your average wargamer (in the case of Warhammer, make that your average 8-15 year old wargamer) is willing to buy and paint and which kind of figures they buy.

Even I will admit that painting 67 Spearman gets a little tiresome........


Offline Fandir Nightshade

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Re: The Halberd
« Reply #16 on: December 18, 2009, 11:11:01 AM »
Ok how to fix it....in a 2000 points army there should be at least 1000 points core ....done

also get the core choices sorted out no heavy cav in core choices I like what they did for example with the undead

ok you have three core choices that count against the limit and another couple of core choices that donīt

Empire core choices that count against the limit state troopers core choices that donīt count knights, (with heavy armour save the plate mail for the inner circle elite choice).

Offline kk14

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Re: The Halberd
« Reply #17 on: December 18, 2009, 11:21:35 AM »
That's a good idea, Fandir, but it is very crippling.

For example, my 1500 point army would have only one core unit, because my other block is Greatswords, and I use my small arms as detachments. Nonetheless it is a *very* balanced list.

Perhaps every knight unit after the first does not count towards the limit.

My preference is to lose the shield option on Halberds, and give them heavy armour.

Special rules are for special troops.
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Offline Warlord

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Re: The Halberd
« Reply #18 on: December 18, 2009, 12:27:11 PM »
I posted an idea for balance using percentages and spliting Core / Special / Rare into Infantry / Cavalry / Missile Troops / War machines / Characters.

Or something like that. I know went into a bit of detail on the Hammer and Anvil website.
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Offline Wolfgang aus Wien

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Re: The Halberd
« Reply #19 on: December 18, 2009, 04:14:06 PM »
Fandir's idea is basically sound, but not feasable from a sales standpoint.

Besides, Knights (of any army) should never be 'core', goes completely against the very definition of the word 'Knight'.

Offline der Hurenwiebel

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Re: The Halberd
« Reply #20 on: December 18, 2009, 06:26:30 PM »
the percentile system of characters cavalry and infantry is exactly what is used in WAB, a game I loooooove.  That said, if we were to have this form of change made to our army we absolutely must have a similar change made to all of the others as it would completely change the dynamic of play.

Knights as core in the HE and Empire armies aren't really all that jarring to me either, but I would like some more medium and light cavalry choices, in core.
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Hey, trolls stay the hell out, this is a serious thread. Empire are cheese. 2 steam tanks, a war altar and 4 cannons is so obviously overpowered. Anyone who thinks otherwise clearly hasn't had their dragon shot down on turn 1 yet."

oh really now.  LOL ROFLMAO oh the irony.

Offline Wolfsgaum

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Re: The Halberd
« Reply #21 on: December 18, 2009, 07:13:28 PM »
Besides, Knights (of any army) should never be 'core', goes completely against the very definition of the word 'Knight'.

I disagree. Do you have any idea about how many knights there are in the Empire? Lots and lots. Plus, they like nothing more than to fight at any opportunity.

Offline kk14

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Re: The Halberd
« Reply #22 on: December 19, 2009, 03:24:30 AM »
Besides, Knights (of any army) should never be 'core', goes completely against the very definition of the word 'Knight'.

Disagree. What about the Templars? There were an organization started entirely on the basis of knighthood, and one of the most influential financial and military powers of their time.
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Offline Derek Contyre

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Re: The Halberd
« Reply #23 on: December 19, 2009, 05:35:27 AM »
Templars which are still around today. ..

The problem with our halberdiers is the same with all our other state troops, survivability and the attacking factor. Our rank bonus can be countered so easily now its not funny
I think we need to have the option to armour up or have access to ws4 veteran troops
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Offline CaptScott

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Re: The Halberd
« Reply #24 on: December 19, 2009, 06:01:30 AM »
Reduce their cost by 1/2 a point.  Job done.  :mrgreen:

they did it in the skaven book...
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