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Offline Aldaris

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Re: 40K
« Reply #25 on: January 25, 2010, 09:37:18 AM »
You can target independent characters in cc, but only if you are in btb with them.

That said, Creed propably isn't the best choice in a 1500 points game - too expensive in my opinion. Unless you have a specific theme or strategy in mind, keep the HQ simple and useful. Give them a standard for those 12" leadership rerolls, and something to make use of that BS4, a lascannon is a nice example, a couple of meltas is another. Sit their asses in a chimera in the middle of your line. Done. Don't give in to the temptation of spending tons of points on stuff like carapace and powerfists for your boss. If he ends up being engaged he's toast anyway unless you specifically build him and his squad for that.

Offline McKnight

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Re: 40K
« Reply #26 on: January 25, 2010, 09:48:54 AM »
Yea the only IC of the IG that you can target is the lord commisar, primaris psyker, tech priest and priest guy.

I play Grey knights and they are awfully overpriced but are still a very mobile and versatile force. Storm bolters on the whole army makes it possible to run around and avoid some charges and add some more shooting rounds.
They are having problems against orks and a horde IG army, because their troops are so expensive that you dont have enough firepower! But then you just have to think tactical.
My Grey knights are doing fairly against my opponents, but as T1million said, they can be included in an IG army for extra punch. But only the termies are worth investing in, and points well spend in my mind! It just sucks they cant have a dedicated landraider.

Anyway Fandir, I thought the same way about the IG as you do, too many choices to try out! But just start trying! Im beginning to like a mechanised force. My infantry army is suffering alot of losses.
Hmm and vendettas are awesome. Dont bother getting 3 lascannons in a heavy weapon team for 105 pts when you can get 3 twinlinked, mobile, almost free LoS cannons for 130pts
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Offline Aldaris

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Re: 40K
« Reply #27 on: January 25, 2010, 10:03:10 AM »
Hmm and vendettas are awesome. Dont bother getting 3 lascannons in a heavy weapon team for 105 pts when you can get 3 twinlinked, mobile, almost free LoS cannons for 130pts
Dedicated HWTs are a risky proposal in general, killed much too easily since they now count as 3 2w models. One exception: Mortar teams. Those are cheap, awesome and don't need LOS. Otherwise, get heavy weapons as part of infantry squads.

As for the Vendetta, I really want to get 2 of them. Problem is cost. 2*35 pounds for the basic models, 2*12 pounds for the Forgeworld conversion kit + 6 for the decals (I like those patterns for the wings). That's 100 pounds for 2 models.
I will do it someday though...

Offline McKnight

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Re: 40K
« Reply #28 on: January 25, 2010, 10:18:21 AM »
Yes i have also found out how awesome mortars can be :-D
I tend to put some 3 autocannons in cover somewhere just incase i go against orks with alot of trucks.
But yea instant death is their bane :/

Hmm i got two :D
I used the lascannons from the landraider sponsons and put them under the vendetta. Im going to use some lascannons from the heavy weapons for the other one i think :P
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Offline Fandir Nightshade

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Re: 40K
« Reply #29 on: January 25, 2010, 11:19:28 AM »
There was a "Ritt der Walküren" Deal on Waylanders three for 65 pounds during a time 1 pound = 1 € or at least close to but I wasnīt liquid at that moment.

I thought that some scout sentinels with lascannon and hunter missle on flanking duty might be my tank busters...I have the models as the stahllegion sentinel was the one with lascannon (he has the closed cupola but I think my enemies will let them through as scout sentinels).

Other than that I like infantry ...loads of them right now I only have ~50 models and 20 cadians I havenīt put together yet, I would like to add some deathkorps of krieg as soon I swim in money my warhammer fantasy armies are completely painted and I have started to play 40K.


....

Damn I sound like Mathi.

Offline McKnight

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Re: 40K
« Reply #30 on: January 25, 2010, 12:19:56 PM »
Yea there are some nice deals around in the world :P

i usually equip my scout sentinels with autocannons. They are cheap and fire twice the shots of a lascannon. And in my experience, they end up in some good positions where S9 isnt that important.
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Offline Fandir Nightshade

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Re: 40K
« Reply #31 on: January 25, 2010, 12:28:35 PM »
But you always get that 10 you need at least, donīt you?

So infantry with mortars and some scout sentinels with lascannons and hunter missles (do I need theses?) should be enough to deal with most threa(d)ts? I also have a single demolisher lying around and an exterminator leman russ.

The commisar and the sarge are no independent characters so can the enemy single them out or does he have to kill all 40 soldiers of the unit to get them done?

Creed has 24 inch command range and 4 orders also that one that gives a unit furious assault (or what it is called) giving them +1 I and +1 S on the charge (great for the 40 mobster unit with the 6 power weapon attacks).

Offline McKnight

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Re: 40K
« Reply #32 on: January 25, 2010, 12:42:53 PM »
10 what?

In my mind Scout sentinels need to be cheap. They are too fragile to spend a lot of points on. So no hunter killers.
You are correct about the commissars and sergeants. They cant be targeted out in cc or shooting. This is the what the orks do with their powerklaw nobs in normal units. They protect the single ork that kills everything. :P
Its just a shame IG cant get powerfists on sergeants and squad commissars.

If you are going to get into close combat use Straken. He is awesome. And gives furious charge and counter attack to people 12" around him. And get a priest :P
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Offline Aldaris

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Re: 40K
« Reply #33 on: January 25, 2010, 12:43:04 PM »
I tend to equip my scout sentinels with multilasers or autocannons, for several reasons. First, it's cheap. Scout sentinels are armored with wet toilet paper, they'll blow up as soon as someone looks at them in a threatening way. Because of that, you will almost always lose them. Quickly. So keep them expendable.

Second, they have BS 3. That means only a 50% to hit chance, with a high propability they'll never fire off another shot. That means that more shots are better than a single high-powered one. Penetrating an AV of 10 with S 6 or 7 is still very feasible.

Lascannons are so expensive you want them on units that have one or preferably both of those qualifications: good shots and/or durable. Scout sentinels are neither. That said, if you don't outflank, but deploy them in cover as part of your line they can actually be pretty good with lascannons. Because then they are durable. Sort of.
On the subject of HK missiles: depends on taste really. If you have the points left over, go for 'em.

Offline Fandir Nightshade

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Re: 40K
« Reply #34 on: January 25, 2010, 12:48:00 PM »
If you give them camo nettings and deploy them in terrain they have a 3+ ward save right?

If I move I canīt use the camo nettings but still would have a 4+? So with lascannons and camo nettings popping out somewhere in the back moving in terrain and shooting the las cannons wouldnīt be such a bad plan?

I think I just have to make a few games and see how it works.

But right now I am happy enough that I can play a game of fantasy once in a while.

Offline PhillyT

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Re: 40K
« Reply #35 on: January 25, 2010, 12:52:36 PM »
Fantasy is more complex, but 40k has its own unique challenges and twists and is fast and fun to play. Plus there are tons of awesome models.

How is fantasy more complex?  Because everything moves on angles?

Phil
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Offline Fandir Nightshade

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Re: 40K
« Reply #36 on: January 25, 2010, 12:53:52 PM »
Every unit has a different move profile in 40k there are less rules and stats.

Complexity doesnīt have to be good though.

Offline Aldaris

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Re: 40K
« Reply #37 on: January 25, 2010, 01:00:34 PM »
How is fantasy more complex?  Because everything moves on angles?

Phil
Fantasy is more complex because it has more rules and exceptions to them than 40k. Movement is more complex, there is a separate magic phase, characters can be equipped for a variety of different jobs, different models have different move characteristics...
Keep in mind I do not say this in a context judging quality. Being more or less complex does not make a better or worse game.

Offline PhillyT

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Re: 40K
« Reply #38 on: January 25, 2010, 01:03:11 PM »
There are many movement profiles in 40k:

Jump troops
Beasts
Infantry
Vehicles
Fast Vehicles
Skimmers
Squadrons

As for more rules, I don't really think so.  I think they have the same number of rules.  Whether thats all that pertinent to the complexity or not is another story.

Phil
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Offline Fandir Nightshade

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Re: 40K
« Reply #39 on: January 25, 2010, 01:07:31 PM »
There are many movement profiles in 40k:

Jump troops
Beasts
Infantry
Vehicles
Fast Vehicles
Skimmers
Squadrons

As for more rules, I don't really think so.  I think they have the same number of rules.  Whether thats all that pertinent to the complexity or not is another story.

Phil

Yes philly but ALL jump troops have the same movement and ALL vehicles and ALL infantry

if you start with the different unit types


infantry (with movement value of 3-6 sometimes even in the army different M types)
cavalry (7-10 again with different M values in the same army, equipment also modifies)
monsters (usually 6...but hey there are exceptions again and even funky stuff with 2d6 or 3d6 movement)
chariots
flyers
flying monsters
....
etc.

Every army behave completely different there are lots of armies with no shooting at all the magic in WFB is lots complexer than the 40K one (ok I cast one of the three spells I have).

 
« Last Edit: January 25, 2010, 01:11:53 PM by Fandir Nightshade »

Offline t12161991

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Re: 40K
« Reply #40 on: January 25, 2010, 01:11:34 PM »
Hmm and vendettas are awesome. Dont bother getting 3 lascannons in a heavy weapon team for 105 pts when you can get 3 twinlinked, mobile, almost free LoS cannons for 130pts
Dedicated HWTs are a risky proposal in general, killed much too easily since they now count as 3 2w models. One exception: Mortar teams. Those are cheap, awesome and don't need LOS. Otherwise, get heavy weapons as part of infantry squads.

As for the Vendetta, I really want to get 2 of them. Problem is cost. 2*35 pounds for the basic models, 2*12 pounds for the Forgeworld conversion kit + 6 for the decals (I like those patterns for the wings). That's 100 pounds for 2 models.
I will do it someday though...

I've never had problems with mine somehow. Cover always seems to be enough.

That said, I generally play a spread passive offensive style, so...

And I haven't faced anyone with serious pieplate power. Yet.
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Offline PhillyT

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Re: 40K
« Reply #41 on: January 25, 2010, 01:15:23 PM »
Fandir:  It the movement differences between a M4 and M5 are enough to be termed more complicated than transports and when they can embark and disembark, or the various deep strike rules, then you are correct.

Phil
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Offline Fandir Nightshade

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Re: 40K
« Reply #42 on: January 25, 2010, 01:18:29 PM »
If you have to remember what each model has as M yes it gets difficult.

40K once you have a hang how a certain type of unit moves you are set the embark disembark rule isnīt more complicated as the enter and leave building rules.

Deepstrike is as complicated as tomb scorpions entering the table, place spot deviate check if they survive and voila done!

40K has way more weapons in its arsenal though ....at least ranged weapons close combat is kind of cc weapon, power weapon, power fist ....isnīt it?


Offline t12161991

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Re: 40K
« Reply #43 on: January 25, 2010, 01:20:10 PM »
No...

There are different CC rules for fighting vehicles, various different close combat weapons, poisoned weapons, special rules (furious charge, counter attack, etc.).

It's just as complicated as fantasy, especially as fantasy doesn't use half the weapons listed most of hte time.
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Offline Aldaris

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Re: 40K
« Reply #44 on: January 25, 2010, 01:20:53 PM »
Be that as it may, most people seem to feel that 40k is simpler rules-wise than Fantasy. But I certainly don't feel like comparing the number of rules to prove a pretty unimportant point...

t12846t94: a single Dreadnought (or worse, an ironclad) dropping down in a pod with a deathwind system can really, REALLY ruin your day. Make that two, and you can basically kiss the ass of all that expensive yet fragile infantry stuff goodbye.

Offline Fandir Nightshade

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Re: 40K
« Reply #45 on: January 25, 2010, 01:20:58 PM »
ahhh the almighty everpresent halberd.

I think most subjectively /or objectively ( :closed-eyes:) think WFB is more complex because of the whole process of moving. Even if 40K has some pretty exact rules for moving too most people just grab their squad and place it 6 "  (or whatever the special rules out of the vast amount of rules  :engel: allows it ) and place them there.

grab place

grab place

grab place

« Last Edit: January 25, 2010, 01:23:08 PM by Fandir Nightshade »

Offline PhillyT

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Re: 40K
« Reply #46 on: January 25, 2010, 01:26:47 PM »
Be that as it may, most people seem to feel that 40k is simpler rules-wise than Fantasy. But I certainly don't feel like comparing the number of rules to prove a pretty unimportant point...
Quote

Most people on forums have a bias towards fantasy and also like to claim the majority of 40k players are Timmy.  Mature 40k players on the other hand will acknowledge that the two games are equally complicated.

As for movement being so complicated to remember, dwarves have M3.  That was hard.  Empire has 4, 7, and 8.  Oh and they have fliers and a stank.  Not hard.  DE have M5, 6, 7, and 9 plus fliers.  You can think of the movement numbers in your head without trouble.  It isn't like it adds anymore complication than memorizing the WS comparison chart, which everyone knows.

Phil
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Offline Aldaris

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Re: 40K
« Reply #47 on: January 25, 2010, 01:30:14 PM »

Mature 40k players on the other hand will acknowledge that the two games are equally complicated.
Oh dear. Will I have to shave and speak in a higher voice now?

Offline PhillyT

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Re: 40K
« Reply #48 on: January 25, 2010, 01:36:50 PM »
That wasn't aimed at anyone here.  It is simply the observation that most people who make that comment have not played both systems enough to honestly say either way.  The common refrain is just "40k is for teh kids." without a thought.  Many of those people haven't used 5th edition and don't really have a clue.

Phil
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Offline McKnight

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Re: 40K
« Reply #49 on: January 25, 2010, 01:38:02 PM »
Fandir nailed it.

I hate having to Wheel, turn, reform or whatever to just get that excact angle to overrun into another enemy (which you then debate with your opponent for 15 minutes).
The other problem is that there are too many movement rules in general! Its not just the movement rate, thats easy enough, but the actions i mentioned before. They are all complicated. How many models kan you swap to the front rank with the expand frontage thing?.
We have to look that up all the time.
When we play 40k we sometimes check the book once to find something really odd or specific wording. When playing fantasy we end up checking the book several times just to check on how the "basic" movement actions actually are!

I realise 40k has its complicated rules as well but in general i think 40k is easier to learn than fantasy...
Another important thing about 40k vs. fantasy is that you NEVER use the terrain in fantasy! You avoid it like the plauge. Half movement and for what? a minus to hit modifier to the enemy? Shooting isnt even that important in fantasy.
In 40k models are litterally tumble over eachother in the terrain so they can get their precious coversave. 
It just gives the whole game another feel. Less static and more dynamic. Some guardsmen running through some craters or basilisks making new ones!
"Me? I'm practically perfect in every way!"- Rufas the eccentric.
Rufas had Two Ton Sally. I have Silicon Sally!
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