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Author Topic: Beating the Brush: My Thoughts On the Wood Elves For Empire  (Read 7213 times)

Offline Atchman

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Beating the Brush: My Thoughts On the Wood Elves For Empire
« on: September 14, 2003, 08:50:39 PM »
As Wood Elves are one of the hardest armies for Empire to beat, I thought it would be helpful to do an indepth feature on their army and possible tactics to defeat it.    The article can be found here:

http://warhammer-empire.com/war_woodelves1.htm
"Do not gloat when your enemy falls; when he stumbles, do no let your heart rejoice"

Offline Calimehter

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Re
« Reply #1 on: September 30, 2003, 05:42:40 PM »
Wow, that was a long read.  But a good one. :)

I would agree with the basic precepts of the article.  Staying disciplined and keeping your formations together and guarded is the way to go.  The Wood Elf player will strive to isolate your units, in an attempt to get them into near-unwinnable combats with 2 or more of their very capable combat troops.  Keeping your flanks clear is job #1, and the hardest times I've had with my Wood Elves have been against opponents who have kept to their guns and avoided the temptation to isolate their units.  I can still sometimes force the issue if I'm good enough, but it still makes for the toughest games.

I also appreciate your comments at the end about Beastmen and Skinks.  Wood Elves are not the only army out there that fight with a lots of mobile, small units (try fighting a flamer-heavy Tzeentch army sometime - my friend Chris is undefeated against Empire with this monstrosity!), yet it surprises me how few players plan for this sort of eventuality.  Every army list I've seen has some sort of plans for certain things (I took X in case I fight Chaos, I took Y in case I fight Undead, I took Z to go hunt war machines, etc. etc.), yet a lot of people stubbornly refuse to take anything to hunt down more than one unit of skirmishers or fast movers.  These folks usually are the ones complaining about how "broken" Wood Elves are.

A couple more comments:

- Canny Wood Elf players will like special scenarios as much as the next player, because of the mobility and flexibility of their army.  The "Capture" scenario in particular . . . you mention that you have to avoid taking "bait", but if you're not careful the objective itself can be all that the Wood Elf player needs to break up your army and get you going in a predictable fashion for setting up traps.  I'm not saying that you can't win a scenario like this, but I'm saying that I've seen very good players lose games like this to me because their own plans were disrupted by the "non pitched battle" strategies, and/or they got careless thinking they "had me" because of their larger armies and the fixed objective.

- Glade Guard cannot take magic banners

- Going magic-heavy yourself is a decent strategy against Wood Elves.  It cuts down on the magic-heavy WE armies ability to deal damage, and Wood Elves themselves are one of the most susceptible armies to magic damage in the whole game.  Fire, Heavens, and even Life Lore (oh, the irony) are all good choices, and all available to Empire players who want to go the magic heavy route themselves.  I realize that most Empire players don't want to take the LD risk associated with this sort of strategy, but it bears mention for an article like this.

- For some reason, a min-maxed Wood Elf army is seen as more "acceptable" by the Wood Elf community than most other types of armies.  Even Chaos players look askance at the guy who takes an army of 10 Tzeentch chariots, but Wood Elf players hardly ever blink an eye at their fellows who take nothing but 10 levels of magic, a pair of Treemen, and a bunch of 5-man archer units.  I'm not sure how this got to be the case, but I'm trying to fight it. . . basically, I try to take at least 3 core units of 10+ models in 2000 point games to make a real "army" around which the combat skirmishers and 5-man archer units operate.  My tourney sports scores (and oddly, my battle scores in all but a few instances) have gone up this year as a result.  Don't be afraid to call out Wood Elf players who play min-max, and dont' feel guilty about running Steam Tanks out against the ones to love to do this.

Offline malisteen

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some points
« Reply #2 on: September 30, 2003, 08:31:01 PM »
A good article.  As a wood elf player, I have some points-

one, glade guard cannot take magic banners, at least not without a battle standard bearer.  BSBs are rare for wood elves, and when they are taken they rarely join a unit, as it makes them increadibly vulnerable.  A glade guardian with a battle standard and a bow of loren is sometimes used, to help keep dryads and glade guard from breaking.

two, only one of any magic banner can be taken, so only one unit of glade riders will field the lynx banner, not all.

The hunting spear is 55 points, as is the acorn of ages.  As such, only wood elf lords will take these items, meaning you will see one or the other, but not both under 3,000 points, and glade guardians will never be carrying the hunting spear (good lord, that would be rediculous!).

Characters cannot join units of flyers, even if they are on flying steeds, and units don't provide protection to characters on bigger bases.  As such the warhawk unit cannot provide protection of any sort to a character on an eagle.  If they could, it would be a reason to use them.

One thing many wood elves (and other players) forget is that the hunting spear is a magical hand weapon, and as such characters cannot use a mundane close combat weapon in its place.  As such a lord on an eagle with the hunting spear cannot charge with a mundane spear for S5 attacks.  Not something wrong in the article, just something worth mentioning.

Since chronicals '03, the hail of doom arrow is 30 points, meaning that a mage with the hail of doom has no access to any second item useful for casting magic.  This means that though you usually will still see the HoDA it's no longer a sure thing.  This also means that a hero level character cannot scout and take the hail of doom arrow.

Also since chronicals '03 the dryad oak aspect has been split into two seperate aspects, one +1S and one +1T.  It doesn't change much about your article, it just makes it even less likely that you will see any aspects other then 6's to hit and +1A, unless the dryads are attacking something with S2 for some reason.

Offline malisteen

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Beating the Brush: My Thoughts On the Wood Elves For Empire
« Reply #3 on: September 30, 2003, 08:32:12 PM »
also, only arch mages get +1 to cast life and beast.

Offline Atchman

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Beating the Brush: My Thoughts On the Wood Elves For Empire
« Reply #4 on: September 30, 2003, 10:09:48 PM »
My bad guys on the rules problems.  I don't have the 2003 annual but I will pick it up and correct the situation ASAP.  I didn't think it was that much different but I'm sadly mistaken!

Thanks for the comments and tips.
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Offline rufus sparkfire

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Re: some points
« Reply #5 on: October 01, 2003, 11:40:53 AM »
Quote from: malisteen
.  A glade guardian with a battle standard and a bow of loren is sometimes used, to help keep dryads and glade guard from breaking.


Hold on, is it legal for a battle standard bearer to have a bow? I was under the impression that it was not.
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Offline queek

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Re: some points
« Reply #6 on: October 01, 2003, 02:06:08 PM »
Quote from: rufus sparkfire
Quote from: malisteen
.  A glade guardian with a battle standard and a bow of loren is sometimes used, to help keep dryads and glade guard from breaking.


Hold on, is it legal for a battle standard bearer to have a bow? I was under the impression that it was not.


its not.  The WE BSB specifically loses his bow by upgrading to BSB,

Offline malisteen

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Re: some points
« Reply #7 on: October 03, 2003, 06:51:14 AM »
Quote from: queek
its not.  The WE BSB specifically loses his bow by upgrading to BSB,


duh.  sorry.

you should look over the changes in the annual for a couple of details that might help against wood elves, the overall article, though, is quite good.

Offline Atchman

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Beating the Brush: My Thoughts On the Wood Elves For Empire
« Reply #8 on: October 03, 2003, 12:40:58 PM »
I just bought the annual :oops:   When I wrote the article I didn't realize that many things had changed.
"Do not gloat when your enemy falls; when he stumbles, do no let your heart rejoice"

Offline Atchman

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Beating the Brush: My Thoughts On the Wood Elves For Empire
« Reply #9 on: November 01, 2003, 12:47:26 PM »
This article has been removed from the War Room.
"Do not gloat when your enemy falls; when he stumbles, do no let your heart rejoice"

Offline Uzmnetosere

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some ideas
« Reply #10 on: November 01, 2003, 02:11:56 PM »
about WE: I quess that's a bug that you can deplou only 5 men strong units. It's realy breaking...
But chesse army? No, 'cause is very hard to anything else than "hail of arrow" or "ambush" army...

about Empire vs. WE: key thing is hellblaster  :twisted:   and don't panic. Empire has more potent shooting, same h-t-h, same magic. Woodies are much more better in movement phase. You can't allow treesinging (in Czech we call it "woodies tube"), becase is wonderful way to reach your backyard with wardancers and treeman. Another big problem is with killing of 5 archers squads. Charge of knights? Woodies are waiting for it. Shooting and panic? No, 'cause of Ld 8/9 and small targets. Maybe some magic (Casandora). But usually you have no other targets than archers, so shooting and praying:).

Gold Rule: Hold the Ground!

BTW: if I play against myself empire vs. we, I probably win with woodies...
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Offline spike

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Beating the Brush: My Thoughts On the Wood Elves For Empire
« Reply #11 on: November 01, 2003, 06:22:39 PM »
Quote from: Atchman
I just bought the annual :oops:   When I wrote the article I didn't realize that many things had changed.


can you email the rules for the steam tank to me or something?  i don't have the money to spend on the annual, and i can't find them anywhere else.
forgivness is between them and God, im just here to arrange the meeting

Offline Atchman

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Beating the Brush: My Thoughts On the Wood Elves For Empire
« Reply #12 on: November 01, 2003, 08:04:48 PM »
Wrong annual, the Stank is in 2002.
"Do not gloat when your enemy falls; when he stumbles, do no let your heart rejoice"

Offline spike

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Beating the Brush: My Thoughts On the Wood Elves For Empire
« Reply #13 on: November 02, 2003, 01:23:26 AM »
noooo i need those stats tonight for the battle im having :cry:
forgivness is between them and God, im just here to arrange the meeting

Offline spike

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Beating the Brush: My Thoughts On the Wood Elves For Empire
« Reply #14 on: November 04, 2003, 04:57:36 AM »
o well it was still a great victory for the empire in the face of evil (and a VERY surrprising one at that)
forgivness is between them and God, im just here to arrange the meeting

Offline Beadz

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Beating the Brush: My Thoughts On the Wood Elves For Empire
« Reply #15 on: November 09, 2003, 03:14:16 AM »
I found armor heavy knights backed up by pistoleers with two mortars is a good way to limit wood elves personally.

Offline Atchman

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Beating the Brush: My Thoughts On the Wood Elves For Empire
« Reply #16 on: November 21, 2003, 07:06:06 PM »
The article on Wood Elves should now be accurate.  If anyone else sees anything wrong, please let me know.  I got beat up bad by the Weed players :oops:
"Do not gloat when your enemy falls; when he stumbles, do no let your heart rejoice"

Offline jdebelly

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Beating the Brush: My Thoughts On the Wood Elves For Empire
« Reply #17 on: January 08, 2004, 12:39:25 PM »
I'm both an avid WE and Empire player.

Calimeter really knows his stuff, by the way.

My advice is to try to take Life lore against WE players if at all possible.  Life has three really good offensive spells - I even recommend to try taking the chance with an Archmage.  I think you'll be happy with the results.  It will definately surprise the WE general.

It's never a bad idea to try to go Magic strong against the WE.  They may dominate the shooting phase, and will probably engage in close combat on terms they choose, but if you can take away the effectiveness of the Magic phase or best of all take away their advantage of hiding in the woods or on or near hills...  well, it'll certainly disrup the WE generals initial plans, and a disrupted general usually makes good mistakes.
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.

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Offline Atchman

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Beating the Brush: My Thoughts On the Wood Elves For Empire
« Reply #18 on: January 08, 2004, 12:44:16 PM »
Thanks for the comments, my article changes were erased from the last edition and I am working on fixing the silly thing again so it will be accurate.  

Randy
"Do not gloat when your enemy falls; when he stumbles, do no let your heart rejoice"