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Author Topic: Game of Thrones - Here be spoilers!!!!!!!!  (Read 25029 times)

Offline ZeroTwentythree

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Re: Game of Thrones - Here be spoilers!!!!!!!!
« Reply #2750 on: May 15, 2019, 04:41:10 AM »
Why can't a bunch of powerful people die in the same day of conflict?

That was my disappointment with the battle at Winterfell. Low body count. A little less disappointing at Kings Landing, though my problem is more in the unlikely way (too manufactured, etc.) that some of the deaths happened.



Everything that's happening we know has happened before - even dragons melting castles (Harrenhal). Rulers go mad - especially Targaryans. Vengeance gets out of hand, as does furious anger.

I thought of Harrenhal too. Definite precedent there.

Although I get that rulers & Targaryans go mad, it seems like a lazy way out of an otherwise intricate plot. Especially when taken in the context of everything else -- Dany's character, the timing of her freaking out, all of the conditions & characters that let her get away with it. Just didn't live up to the rest of the books/series for me.


I am entirely happy with the last series. I had/have my favourite characters, yes, but don't need them to survive. I like the fact that everything has precedent, historical or recent.

I wish some of my favorite characters -- more characters in general -- had died in the last few episodes.


Even the behaviour of the Dothraki.

There shouldn't have even been Dothraki around...  :wink:




The books do have a lot more going on. I should pick them back up again sometime.

Funny, but the he didn't write the last few seasons of the TV show.  :engel:

Offline StealthKnightSteg

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Re: Game of Thrones - Here be spoilers!!!!!!!!
« Reply #2751 on: May 15, 2019, 07:48:53 AM »
Well I forgot my drink during this last episode, so that tells me that it was good enough for me!

Dany now ignoring Tyrions advice to not burn the city when they would surrender with all the precedents of want to do earlier fits also where Tyrion messed up a few to many times now in the eyes of Dany.

I think Jon is just heartbroken about the decision of Dany to go ahead with the burning of the city and will be stuck in internal turmoil.. though Arya has a new one on her personal kill list.

I do wonder what is left of the Iron Throne for any one to sit upon as the Red Keep seems completely destroyed, especially as the underground of where Cersei and Jaime were also collapsed.
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Offline Padre

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Re: Game of Thrones - Here be spoilers!!!!!!!!
« Reply #2752 on: May 15, 2019, 08:55:18 AM »
Several people have said (maybe not here) that Jaime and Cersie's deaths were anticlimactic.

What?

A castle literally fell on top of them!
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Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: Game of Thrones - Here be spoilers!!!!!!!!
« Reply #2753 on: May 15, 2019, 11:27:26 AM »
So it was literally anticlimactic...
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Offline Padre

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Re: Game of Thrones - Here be spoilers!!!!!!!!
« Reply #2754 on: May 15, 2019, 11:44:41 AM »
Yes, but no, but yes, but no. Depends on whether you want to utilise the generally accepted meaning of anticlimactic or a meaning extracted from the word's roots and origins. Conclusion: Maybe.
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Offline Feanor Fire Heart

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Re: Game of Thrones - Here be spoilers!!!!!!!!
« Reply #2755 on: May 15, 2019, 01:03:06 PM »
I think their death was fitting. Any hope, every last shred either of them had about surviving this evaporates over the course of the episode and then its gone. Their world literally crumbling around them and consuming them.

Funny, but the he didn't write the last few seasons of the TV show.  :engel:

Oh I know. The show split from the books back in season 2 and they had some similar beats but the world is richer with more characters and situations than the show ever covered before the show ran out of book material to go off of. Season 1 and Book 1 where beat by beat, scene by scene, identical. It diverged after that until I think season 5 or 6 when Dany flew out of Mereen. After that there were no more books to go off of.
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Offline Finlay

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Re: Game of Thrones - Here be spoilers!!!!!!!!
« Reply #2756 on: May 15, 2019, 02:10:25 PM »
Correct. WW are supposed to be a constant threat. They are not the main story though. Which is one of those turning-tropes-on-its-head things.

eh.
"humanity is the real monster" is extremely tropey.

The first chapter of the first book is about the WW. Jon Snow's entire storyline is about WW.
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Offline Finlay

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Re: Game of Thrones - Here be spoilers!!!!!!!!
« Reply #2757 on: May 15, 2019, 02:12:49 PM »
Oh I know. The show split from the books back in season 2 and they had some similar beats but the world is richer with more characters and situations than the show ever covered before the show ran out of book material to go off of. Season 1 and Book 1 where beat by beat, scene by scene, identical. It diverged after that until I think season 5 or 6 when Dany flew out of Mereen. After that there were no more books to go off of.

reddit is awash with people saying "if only the source material was available, seasons 6+ would have been better"

which is odd to me, because books 1-3 were tight and brilliant, after which point GRRM unspooled himself and the story to such an extent it is literally unfinishable for him.
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Offline Feanor Fire Heart

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Re: Game of Thrones - Here be spoilers!!!!!!!!
« Reply #2758 on: May 15, 2019, 02:44:34 PM »
Exactly!
"Find him, bind him, tie him to a pole and break his fingers to splinters. Drag him to a hole until he wakes up, naked, clawing at the ceiling of his grave."- Mother in "The Mariner's Revenge Song" to her son.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPAr7kL-

Offline Gankom

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Re: Game of Thrones - Here be spoilers!!!!!!!!
« Reply #2759 on: May 15, 2019, 03:07:38 PM »
I think it's important to remember as well that Dany has been talking about burning cities to the ground for several seasons now, and it's always her advisors talking her out of it. Except this time she's lost almost all of them, except Tyrion who's she's fed up with and Grey Worm who's obviously on a vengeance kick himself. In that light I really don't find it super surprising what she did.

Offline Artobans Ghost

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Re: Game of Thrones - Here be spoilers!!!!!!!!
« Reply #2760 on: May 15, 2019, 04:10:49 PM »
Quote Finlay: after which point GRRM unspooled himself and the story to such an extent it is literally unfinishable for him.

Exactly. I donít think there will be any more books in the series.
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Offline Padre

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Re: Game of Thrones - Here be spoilers!!!!!!!!
« Reply #2761 on: May 15, 2019, 05:31:16 PM »
I think it's important to remember as well that Dany has been talking about burning cities to the ground for several seasons now, and it's always her advisors talking her out of it. Except this time she's lost almost all of them, except Tyrion who's she's fed up with and Grey Worm who's obviously on a vengeance kick himself. In that light I really don't find it super surprising what she did.

You have it, and in a nutshell. I think it all makes for a very good story.
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Offline Dihenydd

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Re: Game of Thrones - Here be spoilers!!!!!!!!
« Reply #2762 on: May 15, 2019, 06:22:53 PM »
It is rather funny to see all the Dany-lovers out there screaming the series makes no sense now.  I don't think many have a real good sense of who she is as a character in the series/books.  I mean she's the heroine of the novels, right?  Same way Ned was, or Robb or .. or ... or ...  ooops!

I do wonder if everyone's perception would change if everything in her story arc remained basically the same, but her name was Daniel.  Fix some plot issues with gender switches etc.  No one would be questioning the descent into darkness quite as much.  Everyone's opinion is biased b/c she young, small, blonde, and smiles well.  Same way so many overlooked Robb's flaws or Ned's as they were stereo-typical 'hero' types.  Now everyone looks at Jon with the same eyes.

Martin does bust fantasy tropes, but its not just the dying, its the idea that a hero is a hero and the hero's are who you think they are and act the way you think they should.  Dany has good intentions, but her core instincts are brutal.  Sansa went through brutality and wears it like a cloak but has replaced silliness with viciousness.  Jon was the ignored/despised and wore his moral superiority as a security blanket to keep himself from being bitter and mean, but he's not wise, he's not ambitious, and doesn't really understand people and their motives.  Almost everyone else is dead.
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Offline GamesPoet

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Re: Game of Thrones - Here be spoilers!!!!!!!!
« Reply #2763 on: May 16, 2019, 09:46:54 AM »
Just saw Rob's, his wife's, his child's, and his mother's death.  Ouch.

Lot's of darkness there, very depressing, and so many Stark soldiers too.  The story line as season 3 ends is quite bleak.
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Offline Feanor Fire Heart

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Re: Game of Thrones - Here be spoilers!!!!!!!!
« Reply #2764 on: May 16, 2019, 01:23:32 PM »
Just saw Rob's, his wife's, his child's, and his mother's death.  Ouch.

Lot's of darkness there, very depressing, and so many Stark soldiers too.  The story line as season 3 ends is quite bleak.

Its a famous scene called "The Red Wedding" and there are tons of reactions on youtube of the book readers setting up cameras to get their friends/loved ones reaction. The song they play just before the betral is called "The rains of Castamere" and its done very well by The Nationals:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECewrAld3zw

I forget if they mentioned what the song is about and why it tipped off Caitlin up to this point, but its a Song a minstrel made about Tywin Lannister when the house Castamere (red lion on a gold background), who are bannermen of the Lannisters tried to challenge their authority because Tywin's dad was a weak ruler of the Westerlands. Tywin raised an army and defeated them so thoroughly, he wiped them off the map and now the only thing in the castle of Castamere is sorrowful rain. The song is basically "don't fuck with the Lannisters, especially Tywin."
"Find him, bind him, tie him to a pole and break his fingers to splinters. Drag him to a hole until he wakes up, naked, clawing at the ceiling of his grave."- Mother in "The Mariner's Revenge Song" to her son.

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Offline Dihenydd

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Re: Game of Thrones - Here be spoilers!!!!!!!!
« Reply #2765 on: May 16, 2019, 01:49:38 PM »
Producers of the TV show said that was the scene that made them want to make this show.  Its such a shock.  Reading the book long ago on the bus to work I remember just putting it down and staring out the window.  Mind racing as I had to re-evaluate what the whole series was about.

Spoiler.  The "Red Wedding" is always going to be a famous scene, but I distinctly enjoyed "Arya's Feast" too.
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Offline GamesPoet

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Re: Game of Thrones - Here be spoilers!!!!!!!!
« Reply #2766 on: May 16, 2019, 03:49:59 PM »
I suspected something was up when the Frey wanted to see Rob's new wife.  Yet then all goes quiet, and the wedding proceeds.

The idea that Tully escapes via the bedding of his new wife takes place is ... well, imagine when he wakes up in the morning to find out all his comrades are dead.  Lovely.
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Offline Feanor Fire Heart

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Re: Game of Thrones - Here be spoilers!!!!!!!!
« Reply #2767 on: May 16, 2019, 05:03:16 PM »
I suspected something was up when the Frey wanted to see Rob's new wife.  Yet then all goes quiet, and the wedding proceeds.

The idea that Tully escapes via the bedding of his new wife takes place is ... well, imagine when he wakes up in the morning to find out all his comrades are dead.  Lovely.

I kind of feel bad even more for the Edmure Tully Show Character as they make him out to be an incompetent fool when in the books he was a decent commander...or at least the parts I read.
"Find him, bind him, tie him to a pole and break his fingers to splinters. Drag him to a hole until he wakes up, naked, clawing at the ceiling of his grave."- Mother in "The Mariner's Revenge Song" to her son.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPAr7kL-

Offline Gankom

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Re: Game of Thrones - Here be spoilers!!!!!!!!
« Reply #2768 on: May 17, 2019, 01:00:26 AM »
I always felt the Edmure in the books was a decent commander who made mistakes not really because he was inept, but because he was left out of Robb's plans. Then gets blamed for messing the plan up.

Although personally I never thought Robb was that bright a commander either. Left Tywin sitting in Harranhall, sent most of the Riverland forces home, then went on a rather crazy push into Lannister territory with no support or supply line. I get that it was suppose to be a risky/gambly move, but it doesn't strike me as a bright one. Of course we also know as a reader that his goal of taking Casterly Rock was pointless because the gold they thought was there had long since been played out.

Offline S.O.F

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Re: Game of Thrones - Here be spoilers!!!!!!!!
« Reply #2769 on: May 17, 2019, 11:41:41 AM »
Although personally I never thought Robb was that bright a commander either. Left Tywin sitting in Harranhall, sent most of the Riverland forces home, then went on a rather crazy push into Lannister territory with no support or supply line. I get that it was suppose to be a risky/gambly move, but it doesn't strike me as a bright one. Of course we also know as a reader that his goal of taking Casterly Rock was pointless because the gold they thought was there had long since been played out.

Eh I always thought it was more sort of central position stuff, much like how the war starts. Tywin is the tougher craftier foe so Rob keeps him distracted and  annihilates other Lannister armies first. So the Battle of the Camps nets Jaime and destroys a large Lannister force, Oxcross destroys the newly levied replacement for that force, and the raiding of the Westerlands prevents Tywin from raising a force to replace that. Supply wasn't really the issue since the Northern forces are taking any and all food and cattle from the Westerlands as they go. The ultimate goal of course would be to draw Tywin out of Harrenhal and attack on advantageous terms not on Tywin's.
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Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: Game of Thrones - Here be spoilers!!!!!!!!
« Reply #2770 on: May 18, 2019, 04:26:03 PM »
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Offline ZeroTwentythree

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Re: Game of Thrones - Here be spoilers!!!!!!!!
« Reply #2771 on: May 18, 2019, 07:35:19 PM »
Hahaha!  :::cheers:::

Offline S.O.F

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Re: Game of Thrones - Here be spoilers!!!!!!!!
« Reply #2772 on: May 20, 2019, 02:56:58 AM »
Fuck that was awful...
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Offline Feanor Fire Heart

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Re: Game of Thrones - Here be spoilers!!!!!!!!
« Reply #2773 on: May 20, 2019, 03:16:13 AM »
Well its all over. I know the internet is going to roast it because it wasn't what they expected or some other reason. I for one actually liked it.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPAr7kL-

Offline Realjuan

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Re: Game of Thrones - Here be spoilers!!!!!!!!
« Reply #2774 on: May 20, 2019, 07:22:22 AM »
I enjoy this episode.

Slow but full of interesting things, but maybe it just the nostalgia that its finally over.
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