Topic: I won my first game of WFB...sort of(a confession of a first time gunline user)

[Johann Q Peasant]

Mein Fellow Generals,

As the title says, I finally won a game.  It was a 4000 point game between the a Skaven force, and the combined might of two 2000 point Empire/Dwarf armies.  It was fun.  I am asking for the review because I have some points I wish to bring up, and wish to get other's thoughts on the subject.  Afterwards, a few points on why I dont really feel like I "won" the game.  But here are the points first:

- I have come to the conclusion, and this has been said by others before me, but I believe spearmen are our weakest choice in troops.  Not that they are horrible, just slightly worse.  I used a unit of 50 of them (the 13th nuln pike, for you bumpkins out there), and they got charged by a 38 strong unit of clan rats led by deathmaster whathisname (q something? how many do they have?). The Spear unit was behind a blessed bulwark, and led by a GOTE and a BSB.  They regular spears got only 38 attacks (2 characters in the front rank, and the champion was stomped by the deathmaster)  of those attacks, only 4 clanrats were killed... not so cool.  Meanwhile, the 15 man halb det countercharging killed 2 clanrats, and they only had 8 halbs fighting.

- Detachments rock, and seeing the look on your opponents face when they get to countercharge is pretty sweet.  15 man detachments are now going to be standard. 

- A lvl 4 Shadow Wizard is an excellent addition for the empire, and its fun to cast withering on a huge unit of clanrats, and then dropping mortar shells on them.

- At low level, the fire lore is great.  Using fireball to take the regen save off rat ogres is cool, and combined with the threat of another lvl 4 wizard, they usually let it through. 

- I used a cheap GOTE on foot for the first time yesterday, and I have to say... He did a good job. (maybe because he was a dwarf lord standing in).

- DWARF ARTILLERY ROCKS.  It was Scary in its effectiveness.

-Using a Greatsword Regiment in 6 wide formation was very successful.  I'm going to try Swords and halbs in the same way. Any thoughts?

- Remembering to single out enemy characters for death by the rank and file soldiers is a good idea.  A question however, Can a skaven character attack in cc, then use the verminous valor rule to scamper to the back, away from danger?

- Question  Why are Warpfire throwers not effected by blast templates?  Also, if they are in the range of a enemy unit's pursuit movement, why do they get to automatically flee to safety?  They didnt even roll, just popped back 5 inches to the side of their stormvermin parent unit, which caused a unit of dwarfs to crash into the stormvermin instead.

- Question Can a grey seer on the Screaming bell hide from CC?

And here are my misgivings about my and my allies Generalship:
-I usually have incredibly bad luck, and for once, mine was pretty good yesterday.  Our opponent did not.  His warpfire throwers (all 7 of them)  did not kill as many as they usually did.  In fact, most of the time they landed short of the opponent.  Which is good, because the auto-panic checks they cause just kill me. Also, the for the first time ever in my battles against the skaven, the Storm banner only lasted one turn.  Usually they last at least 3 turns.  The last one I had lasted 5.  I dont really feel like I outfought him when We out rolled him. 

- I felt like we were playing a gunline.  My list had a total of 2 wizards (one lvl 4 and one lvl 2), 2 Great Cannons, and 2 Mortars.  The rest was CC infantry, a GOTE, a BSB, and a unit of Greatswords.

- My dwarf ally had 2 Volley guns, 2 Catapults (he had them modeled as howitzers) and 2 cannons.  Then an engineer, a runelord, and the rest of his list was cc dwarf warriors. 

A quick rundown of the skaven list, by no means exhaustive:

Grey seer, screaming bell (not very effective, kept wanting to move forwards)
Plague priest, (Crazy stats on this guy!), plague furnace.
Deathmaster (q? awesome stats, and cheap!)
some packmaster special character
BSB w/storm banner
4(5?) Warplock Engineers ( he never got alot of dice in the magic phase)
Huge unit of Storm vermin (50+) w/ screaming bell
3 60+ units of clan rats (its nice to see these guys on the table again.)
a 40+ unit of plaguemonks
Warp lightning cannon
small unit of rat ogres
multiple warpfire throwers
4 teams of gutter runners
2 Hell pit Abominations
probably forgetting something else.  He originally was going to have a 2k list, but the other skaven player couldnt show up, so he had to stretch it out.

All in all, 10 artillery pieces and 2 wizards seems like a gunline to me. Our infantry was deployed in a long line across the table, with alternating Dwarf/Empire units. We didnt move until the 3rd turn, when we got chargd by the skaven (We got some charges in ourselves, taking advantage of failed skaven charges). The artillery was on the flanks, with the catapults in the center.  However, I dont have much experience outside of one store.  Is this alot of shooting at 4k?  Too little? I just dont feel satisfied with the victory.  Our shooting was not 100 percent effective, but it was still quite good.  It did come down to cc in the end.  Like I said, we didnt manuever much, just let them run the gauntlet until we countercharged. It was cool to actually be able to fire effective artillery into them (usually mine barely ever get to fire - they get blown up, or get rained out.)

Thank to any who read this.  Am I looking too much into this? or should I swear off the artillery forever?

Johann

[Baron Martens]

I would not consider that a gunline list.  Many folks manage to squeeze in almost that much shooting into a single 2000 point list, at which point its a gunline.  You took what I believe most generals would consider an average amount of shooting, by no means excessive.  Maybe it felt that way because you were paired with the other shooting heavy army (dwarves), but at 4000 points I would hope you and your ally would capitalize on the advantages of shooting.  It sounds like you both still had enough cc infantry to be considered balanced.

As for your questions, I am pretty sure the grey seer can hide in close combat on the bell.  The other two I'm not sure about, but sound pretty fishy.

Also, I wouldn't feel bad about winning because of good dice rolls.  Maybe you got used to luck hindering rather than helping, but do not spurn the favor of the dice gods    Really, its a part of the game; as is using artillery.  Other armies have their dominant phases as well, don't be afraid to make the most of the Empire's strengths.

[Duke Igthorn]

You didnt play a "gunline" - it could have been much, much worse!  Dont feel bad, your opponent played to his strengths- he took multiple Warlocks, Weapon teams & Hellp Pit abominations! You earned a victory.

The Seer can hide from combat.
A Skaven hero cant attack, THEN use verminous valour to hide. If he hides in the back- he cant attack.
WFT & other Skaven weapon teams get some kind of protection if within 3 inches of a parent unit , but Im not sure exactly how it works.

[MrDWhitey]

They get a 4+ ward from missile attacks, skaven player was having you on, as they always do. Bloody Skaven players, don't know what it is with that army, but all it's players just -have- to cheat somehow. 

No mention of some fabled scamper back out of reach.. no mention of immunity to blasts.. mhm.

Verminous valour just means if he refuses a challenge, he goes to the back as normal, but the unit can still use his leadership/rerolls.

Grey Seers can still use Verminous valour, they go higher up the bell. But only if he refuses a challenge with him. If he doesn't, just allocate attacks onto him.

Are you talking about Deathmaster Snikch? He's over 269 points.

[Warlord]

Statistically, your spearmen SHOULD have caused more wounds than they did.

Of the 38 attacks, 19 should have hit, 9.5 should have wounded. From these wounds, 3.3 should have been saved by armour, and another 1 saved by ward saves. Leaving you with 5 wounds.

The thing is, troopers with sword and board are always a tough nut to crack. But I take my Spearmen in units for steadfast depth, not wide for attacks, as base, they cannot cut it. Especially against skaven - those extra ranks are really needed.

The other thing to consider is your halberds attacking in the flank have a few advantages (as do any unit in the flank). Firstly, the higher strength meant lower armour save, and attacks in the flank mean no ward save. They also take less attacks back. Arguably though, they also underperformed.

Of the 10 attacks, 5 should have hit, 3.5 should have wounded, and about 0.6 should have been saved. Leaving you with 2.9 wounds.

The amount of attacks that are getting thrown about nowdays, warrior priests with that hatred re-roll are more useful than ever.

[Johann Q Peasant]

Statistically, your spearmen SHOULD have caused more wounds than they did.

. But I take my Spearmen in units for steadfast depth, not wide for attacks, as base, they cannot cut it. Especially against skaven - those extra ranks are really needed.


The amount of attacks that are getting thrown about nowdays, warrior priests with that hatred re-roll are more useful than ever.

thank you for the quick mathammer, warlord.  I put them in Horde, and they still got 5 ranks, but perhaps I'll try a 7 wide, 8 deep formation.  I dont want to give up on them just yet. (I'm considering converting them into halberds)

As for my spearmen and halberdiers underperforming... well, I'm used to that. I was surprised my artillery killed as much as it did. 

Now for some questions about verminous valour, and cc in general...

if my unit of say... greatswords is in cc w/ a unit of stormvermin, with a grey seer and a screaming bell, and it looks like this:



            v v v v v s s s s v v v v v               s=screaming bell, v = stormvermin, g= greatsword, G=Greyseer, C=Count's Champion,
            v v v v v s s s s v v v v v               c=stormvermin champion, w=warplock engineer
            v v v v v s s G s v v v v v
            v v v v v s s s s v v v v v
            v v v c v s s s s v w v v v
                   g g g C g g g
                   g g g g g g g
                   g g g g g g g

Now, if I issue a challenge w/ my count's champion, and he refuses, do I get to pick which character of his gets put in the back?  AnHow does Verminous Valor work?  Could I still put attacks onto his warplock engineer?

Johann

[Dirk Hardpeck]

Congrats on the win! I know how you feel in regards to losing because of poor dice rolling/luck. I've lost many a battle because when I need to hit & wound, I roll low and when I need to LD check and/or rally, I roll high.

Don't feel bad your "gun line" either. As others pointed out I don't consider that a gun line.

[Delthos]

Oh my god! You're an Empire player and you had more than one unit of Handgunners and/or a single warmachine! Why you beardy no good for nothing gunline.... Just kidding.

I normally field a similar mix of shooting in my 2000 to 2250 point Empire lists. I've never been called a gunline by anyone I've played against, at least no one has told me it. I've never felt it was a gunline either.

[MrDWhitey]

Verminous Valour:

"If a skaven character refuses a challenge, the model is placed in the back rank as normal"

[Syn Ace]

Did his Storm Banner burn out early? I hate that thing -- always shuts down a big chunk of my shooting.

[Siberius]

Having a Warrior Priest as one of the characters in that unit could have seriously upped your kill tally with the hatred getting you a lot more hits. Perhaps that could have swung it more your way.

[Johann Q Peasant]

Having a Warrior Priest as one of the characters in that unit could have seriously upped your kill tally with the hatred getting you a lot more hits. Perhaps that could have swung it more your way.

He was with the swordsman on the left flank. At 2k points, I would have had trouble squeezing out another character.  But you have a point. Maybe he would be better spent on the WS 3 Spearmen than the WS4 Swordsmen.

Did his Storm Banner burn out early? I hate that thing -- always shuts down a big chunk of my shooting.

Yep, after only half a turn. Thank god- Last game against Skaven I played, it stuck around for 4 FULL TURNS.  Not cool.  Take that, Skaven!

Back to the topic of Verminous Valour, that means when my GS charged the front, and I challenge, and he does not accept, (and he puts one of his characters in the back rank) and he still has characters in the front rank, (such as a WLEngineer), they can be targeted by Normal Rank & File Soldiers? 

[Fandir Nightshade]

Yes of course.....in future if there are unbelievable awesome rules tell your opponent to show them to you. Also the profiles of units if you are unsure why rat ogres should have ws of 6 or other stuff that seems odd.


Overall 4 artillery pieces at 2000 points is not a gunline.

[Siberius]

He was with the swordsman on the left flank. At 2k points, I would have had trouble squeezing out another character.  But you have a point. Maybe he would be better spent on the WS 3 Spearmen than the WS4 Swordsmen.

I'm no tactical expert of course, but from the few times I have seen the warrior priest or lector in big units, their hatred has been devastatingly better. Makes me want to have one in every big block. Which I can't most of the time being beasts  but then being beasts I have primal fury, which is just sad for everyone else who had got fed up of my druchii eternal hatred. Primal fury is almost better... 

[Johann Q Peasant]

He was with the swordsman on the left flank. At 2k points, I would have had trouble squeezing out another character.  But you have a point. Maybe he would be better spent on the WS 3 Spearmen than the WS4 Swordsmen.

I'm no tactical expert of course, but from the few times I have seen the warrior priest or lector in big units, their hatred has been devastatingly better. Makes me want to have one in every big block. Which I can't most of the time being beasts  but then being beasts I have primal fury, which is just sad for everyone else who had got fed up of my druchii eternal hatred. Primal fury is almost better... 

The Priest usually goes there, but the general and the BSB was there, and the swordsman needed a character to give them a boost.  However, I now will endeavor to place the priest in the larger units.

Yes of course.....in future if there are unbelievable awesome rules tell your opponent to show them to you. Also the profiles of units if you are unsure why rat ogres should have ws of 6 or other stuff that seems odd.


Overall 4 artillery pieces at 2000 points is not a gunline.

I need to find/steal the Skaven book.  You have a good point, less trust of the opponents.  As to the gunline, you gentlemen here have convinced me that for 2 shooting heavy armies, 10 pieces in 4000 points does not make a gunline.  The Skaven player disagreed, and the Dwarf player likes gunline lists.

Thanks for all the advice, everyone. 

[black,water]

Youre calling 4 warmachines a gunline?

Oh mate, try playing against someone with 8+. : ]

[Johann Q Peasant]

Between the Dwarf Player and myself, we had 10 pieces at 4000 points, with no other shooting. 

He had 2 of each type of Dwarf Artillery. Is that alot in points?

[black,water]

Not really when youre talking 4000 points. 6 Warmachines might be a little much in one list arguably

I was talking 8 in a 2000 point list though : |

[Eighty]

in our gaming group if something is too good to be true, we ask to read it. usually in disbelief as something nasty happens to us, but the books are always there and you can always check on those crazy wtf rules (like tanks dishing out impact hits to chargers that do impact hits oh yeah)