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Author Topic: new Empire player- could you help?  (Read 3528 times)

Offline wardancer

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new Empire player- could you help?
« on: June 14, 2011, 11:18:17 PM »
I know I know, I bet you read things like that hundreds of times ;)

Basically since some time ago I began collecting stuff for my withhunter themed Empire army- I love the Empire fluff and organisation, but never really liked figures, so figured lots of historical models from Perry etc. plus withhunter models etc would do nicely ;)
Anyway, I never had a game with Empire before, been Skaven player for ages, but I want to try them out finally. In September there is a 1600 tournament with lots of comps and I think that this is an excellent opportunity to push me to assemble small army and start painting it ;)

Comps for tournament are (most important ones): minimum 6 units (warmachines collectively count as one unit), no more than triple same choice of the unit, no duplicates of heroes (however BSB count as a different choice of a hero), no lord characters, no more than 40 models per unit/400 points per unit, no duplicates of rare choices, 70 shots per army..

I was thinking something along the line:

mortar
cannon
hellstorm

now I am wondering what to do with rest- I want to take 30 flagellants and put warrior priests there, but not sure how effective they are anymore (they look dead killy on paper and fit well with the theme of my army), greatswords (not sure if they are not too expensive for such a small tourno?). As far as other troops go, was thinking about two big units of swordsmen with handgunner detachment each and 30 strong horde unit of halberdiers with some detachements as well. As far as swordsmen go - are there any good alternatives that are not GW Empire swordsmen, which I really dont like?

Well, any advice you can give me guys? Are detachements good idea or shall I better use bigger shooty units and two blocks of swordsmen with no detachements? Thanks in advance for your help

Empire captain

BSB

Warrior priest (ironcurse icon)

2nd level wizard (perhaps with dispel scroll)

items wise I want to keep them minimal as 1600 points doesnt leave me much for troops.

I want to take some good artillery support as well so I was thinking


Offline StealthKnightSteg

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Re: new Empire player- could you help?
« Reply #1 on: June 15, 2011, 09:04:16 AM »
1st welcome aboard :)
 
Now if a mod would like to move this to the Parade Ground where army building lists should go ;)
 
Now you can't put a Warrior Priest in a Flagellant unit. I still got mixed feelings about flagellants. If you do take them get them into combat soon or screen them from shooting.
 
Also a naked engineer does wonders for your artillery.
 
Start building up around 2 core blocks (halbs and probably swords) 30-40 big and then se what you can add after. And if your still open for points then think about detachments.
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Offline Fandir Nightshade

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Re: new Empire player- could you help?
« Reply #2 on: June 15, 2011, 09:52:22 AM »
I too think this should go to the parade ground but I will post in here.


Flagellants are great especially in low point games with low leadership access (of max 8 without lord) they will never run to a failed panic or break test the enemy has to kill all 30 of them (I suggest fielding them 30 you can use a bus like formation first or a HordeI would go Horde). They really shine if combined with light magic so if you use a war altar (which you canīt due tournament rules).

Still 30 Flagellants as core (using a Sigmar Priest) should do great.

2 Blocks of Halberdiers (Perry minis are awesome for this) each with a priest in or the bsb on foot (with armour of meteoric iron and dawnstone 1+ re rollable save) both units within 12" of each other should work just fine.

Halberdiers should be 40 strong with full command but if points are scarce you could make them 35.

Detachments are well...not as good any more as they donīt count for core allowance and donīt bring so much advantage.

I would suggest two units of 10 handgunners or crossbows to harass the enemy elite knights or infantry and add some Free company detachments there (2*5 nice models everywhere as you can use whatever you want) to use as small diversion units and speed bumps (like giant rats).


You can add in a lvl 2 wizard with the rod of power to have a great tool to go magic offense or defence depending on enemy.

I suggest 2 cannons (as big nasties are the bane of your big halberdier blocks...a Hellpit could chew through them still or a hydra could flame breath for large amounts of kills and then kill enough of them each turn to win the combat until too many have died). And one Mortar. If you have points left add an engineer to make your artillery more reliable.


So your army could be something like this
Sigmarpriest (General, heavy armour and shield other than that I like to field him naked)
Bsb (armour of meteoric iron, dawnstone)
lvl 2 mage with rod of power
Engineer(naked)

35 halberdiers full command
35 halberdiers full command

30 Flagellants

10 crossbows/handgunnrs
5 Free Company

10 crossbows/handgunners
5 Free company

2 Cannons

1 Mortar

Offline wardancer

  • Posts: 137
Re: new Empire player- could you help?
« Reply #3 on: June 15, 2011, 12:16:45 PM »
Thanks for your suggestions guys.
I only didn't put it in Parade Ground as this is a lot of questions and not a lot of army list there yet ;)

I like idea of lots of halberdiers- but arent swordsman better due to their parry save and actually higher chance of hitting stuff? Of course then I have a probel mwith finding enough alternative figures for them ha ha ;)
Ah also- no duplicate warmachines- so what instead f second cannons- hellblaster or helstorm?

Offline darkman889

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Re: new Empire player- could you help?
« Reply #4 on: June 15, 2011, 04:18:02 PM »
I know I know, I bet you read things like that hundreds of times ;)

Funny, I saw the title and I was like, "Oh God...not another one of these posts..."

It actually looks like you're fairly well informed and have a solid list prepared.  Play a couple battles with what you have and come back, determine where you were weak and work on it from there. 


Offline wardancer

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Re: new Empire player- could you help?
« Reply #5 on: June 15, 2011, 04:29:02 PM »
@darkman- I am veteran WHB player, therefore I know what people feel when they see thread titles like that. Thanks for bothering to read it at all ;)

Just couple more questions since they will determine my spending and converting effort and with not having much money its actually quite important ;)

Would you rather use halberdiers or swordsmen? (still no idea where to get nice swordsmen from that dont have those annoying imperial tights and cock guards ;) because then even with rank fillers I will need a lot of them and so far only got about 15-20 models fitting the purpose) 
As I am not permitted same warmachines then would you reccomend hellblaster (which  I already have) or hellstorm rocket thingy?


Thanks a lot in advance. After those questions I will play few battles and come back with more specific questions ;)

Offline Talben21

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Re: new Empire player- could you help?
« Reply #6 on: June 15, 2011, 05:19:16 PM »
@darkman- I am veteran WHB player, therefore I know what people feel when they see thread titles like that. Thanks for bothering to read it at all ;)

Just couple more questions since they will determine my spending and converting effort and with not having much money its actually quite important ;)

Would you rather use halberdiers or swordsmen? (still no idea where to get nice swordsmen from that dont have those annoying imperial tights and cock guards ;) because then even with rank fillers I will need a lot of them and so far only got about 15-20 models fitting the purpose) 
As I am not permitted same warmachines then would you reccomend hellblaster (which  I already have) or hellstorm rocket thingy?

Cod pieces are part of the Empire! If you don't like them then i'd probably play a different army.

I would almost always choose Halberdiers over Swordsmen. They are cheaper, hit hitter and just better overal.


Thanks a lot in advance. After those questions I will play few battles and come back with more specific questions ;)

Offline wardancer

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Re: new Empire player- could you help?
« Reply #7 on: June 15, 2011, 09:36:48 PM »
I am personally leaning towards halberdiers as well simply because i like them more ;)

How about a choice between hellblaster and rockets? what would experienced gamers propose?
Cheers

Offline darkman889

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Re: new Empire player- could you help?
« Reply #8 on: June 15, 2011, 10:06:35 PM »
Go halberdiers; they are more useful against most of the armies out there.  The benefits of the swordsmen are easily negated but Str 4 is forever.

I use a helblaster; the rockets a boosted version of the mortar and, while very nice and incredibly powerful, tends to piss people off when it lands on their infantry blocks and wipes an entire unit of elves.  Damn elves...I swear, the people who play elves act like pretentious snobs too.  Anyways, the helblaster shouldn't function like your standard artillery piece; it's not a good comparison between the helblaster and rockets.  The helblaster holds a flank and punishes anything that is coming at your cannons. 

Offline wardancer

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Re: new Empire player- could you help?
« Reply #9 on: June 15, 2011, 10:49:33 PM »
ok thanks for the advice. I suppose i will get rockets as well and try them out anyway, see whats best.
Halberdiers sound better to me as well since I already got lots of perry models to make them with! :)

Offline darkman889

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Re: new Empire player- could you help?
« Reply #10 on: June 16, 2011, 01:16:31 AM »
Rockets>mortars.  Period.  And they're only 40 pts more; that str 5 is so worth it.  I will have to say though, a str 5 large template really does suck to get hit by, might be too powerful. 

Offline Lord Solar Plexus

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Re: new Empire player- could you help?
« Reply #11 on: June 16, 2011, 05:27:22 AM »
In fact, the difference between Swords and Halbs isn't huge - and statistically, Swordsmen lose their fights by less.

A horde of 30 isn't a good idea. You will lose models, so you want to have more to soak up losses. Flagellants can hit like a train but wilt at the first breeze.
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Offline wardancer

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Re: new Empire player- could you help?
« Reply #12 on: June 16, 2011, 09:39:59 AM »
I realise that flaggellants are very fragile but I really want them in my army, they suit the whole idea very much and I like themn, I reckon I can make them work.
Swordsmen do indeed look like they can surive more, but I will try halberdiers or one unit of halberdiers and one of swordsmen if I can find good miniatures to use (any ideas what I can use for swordsmen that is not empire state troops box?)

Offline Novogord

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Re: new Empire player- could you help?
« Reply #13 on: June 16, 2011, 07:44:59 PM »
This thread is doing something about non GW figures:
http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=38560.0

This thread is about alternative figures:
http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=31348.0

If you don't like the current state troopers and you have to stay GW. Then you could always look from some brettonian men at arms. Maybe they would fit with your flangellants? These combined with a box  free compagnie (swords, halberd, spears, bowmen & xbowmen).
Else, a more expensive way to make up units are the figures from Mordheim...
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Offline wardancer

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Re: new Empire player- could you help?
« Reply #14 on: June 19, 2011, 03:53:56 PM »
OK, I tried to make army as somebody above suggested, with engineer and all. Unfortunately for 1600 points I don't seem to be able to fit him in.
So somethiong like that:

Warrior Priest (h.armour, shield, ironcurse icon)

Wizard 2nd level  (what magic do you propose? shadow? light? perhaps fire since its only level two?)

BSB (meteoric iron armour plus dawnstone)



35 halberdiers full command
35 swordsmen full command

10 handgunners plus 10 free company detachment
10 crossbowmen plus 10 free company detachment


30 flagellants

hellstorm

mortar
cannon

That roughly comes to 1600 points.

What do people think about greatswords? worth it? not much? I am considering swapping flaggies for a unit of greatswords with flaming banner.





Offline TheElectorCount43

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Re: new Empire player- could you help?
« Reply #15 on: June 19, 2011, 03:59:36 PM »
I personally prefer Greatswords to Flagellants, however it's down to you what you get.
Some cavalry wouldn't be a bad thing but they are quite expensive.

Offline wardancer

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Re: new Empire player- could you help?
« Reply #16 on: June 19, 2011, 05:23:32 PM »
yeah, i would love cavalry but for 1600 points its really hard to find the place for them..
As for greatswords- I am really tempted to field like 26 of them instead of 30 flagellants but proble is I only got about 10 greatswords or models that could be used by them...


Offline Novogord

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Re: new Empire player- could you help?
« Reply #17 on: June 20, 2011, 05:25:22 AM »
Maybe you could drop the unit of handgunners and make the detachements smaller. (They can only be 50% of the unit size of their parent unit.) Then you could probably include a unit of pistoleers or maybe a unit of knights.

For your choice on greatswords, try them (proxy them for a few games) and then you can decide if you want them in your army or not.
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Offline Obi

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Re: new Empire player- could you help?
« Reply #18 on: June 20, 2011, 07:52:18 AM »
I like the list so far, with the exception that I would rather take a helblaster. The helstorm is very good in pairs, less so single. IMO it'd be more effective to take two mortars instead, or to switch the helstorm for a helblaster.

I'd also drop the flagellants- fun as they may be, I fear they might die too quickly even at this point level. They are also very expensive. In any case, I'd field them 7 wide, in either 3 or 4 ranks.

I'd drop the combat detachments.

With the points you save there, on the helstorm and on the flags (either by dropping 2 or 9) you can either buy an engineer (with points to spare) of 5 knights with musician.

Also, sorry for showing up late to the party :wink:
Hello Athiuen and welcome to the Back Table.

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Offline wardancer

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Re: new Empire player- could you help?
« Reply #19 on: June 20, 2011, 02:05:57 PM »
Obi- just to clarify, I am not allowed to take double warmachine choices so no two mortars option for me here ;) I will be tersting both helstorm and helblaster, we will see what works better ;)
I still want couple of small combat detachements. But you are right, I will make them 5 strong and therefore less painful to waste if it needs to be done ;)
Perhaps I will manahe to scrape enough points for an engineer after all! :)



Offline Obi

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Re: new Empire player- could you help?
« Reply #20 on: June 20, 2011, 03:03:58 PM »
Obi- just to clarify, I am not allowed to take double warmachine choices so no two mortars option for me here ;)
Oh yeah, I forgot about that.  :icon_redface:

Quote
I will be tersting both helstorm and helblaster, we will see what works better ;)
Good idea.

Quote
I still want couple of small combat detachements. But you are right, I will make them 5 strong and therefore less painful to waste if it needs to be done ;)
Great!

Quote
Perhaps I will manahe to scrape enough points for an engineer after all! :)
10 FC = 50 points, 2 flags = 18. 50 + 18 >65.

SCORE!
Hello Athiuen and welcome to the Back Table.

caveat lector
I killed a duck with a spear, can't read train timetables though
"To be is to do"-Socrates;
"To do is to be"-Sartre;
"Do Be Do Be Do"-Sinatra

Offline wardancer

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Re: new Empire player- could you help?
« Reply #21 on: June 20, 2011, 04:26:45 PM »
yeah, look like I will manage to field him after all :)

Offline StealthKnightSteg

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Re: new Empire player- could you help?
« Reply #22 on: June 21, 2011, 03:16:11 PM »
10 FC = 50 points, 2 flags = 18. 50 + 18 >65.

SCORE!

How is 2 flagellants 18 points, Obi? :)
Everyone is entitled to be stupid, but some abuse the privilege.

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Offline Obi

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Re: new Empire player- could you help?
« Reply #23 on: June 21, 2011, 04:27:32 PM »
Because, like Greatswords, they are now lowered to 9 points a piece :engel:
Hello Athiuen and welcome to the Back Table.

caveat lector
I killed a duck with a spear, can't read train timetables though
"To be is to do"-Socrates;
"To do is to be"-Sartre;
"Do Be Do Be Do"-Sinatra

Offline wardancer

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Re: new Empire player- could you help?
« Reply #24 on: July 05, 2011, 07:11:20 PM »
Had my first battle against skaven. Did quite well, got minor victory at the end. Still can't say whether I prefer helstorm over hellblaster due to stormbanner stopping it shooting in turn 1 and gutterrunners killing it in turn 2 ha ha :) In general my army worked quite well. I gave wizard lore of fire which seems to be good idea on such a low level.
Flagellants were hitting really hard but I can see issue developing really quickly with them dying fast. I suppose I will leave them for bigger battles and try greatswords instead.