home

Author Topic: Balthasar Gelt  (Read 1635 times)

Online mr chumley warner

  • Posts: 7015
  • I have the only Battle Lord in existence!
    • View Profile
Balthasar Gelt
« on: January 29, 2012, 12:10:16 PM »
Gents,

Balthasar Gelt, i'm seriously considering using him,

400 pts though, seems a little high.

As long as you keep him out of combat his 3+ ward will be good.

I think he will savage Chaos Warriors or Knights in the Magic phase, with a +2 adder,

any1 used him to good effect???

tell me!
I can't explain it, my collection grows like my pubic hair , but more pervasively!

Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

  • Posts: 6129
  • Attorney-at-RAW
    • View Profile
Re: Balthasar Gelt
« Reply #1 on: January 29, 2012, 12:25:40 PM »
I have not used him yet, but I would agree: a bit too expensive. In fact, compared with most other races, ALL our special characters seem too expensive.
It is not enough to have no ideas of your own; you must also be incapable of expressing them.
Sex, lies and manuscripts: The History of the Empire as Depicted in the Art of the Time

Online mr chumley warner

  • Posts: 7015
  • I have the only Battle Lord in existence!
    • View Profile
Re: Balthasar Gelt
« Reply #2 on: January 29, 2012, 12:29:27 PM »
I'm spending 400 pts anyway on the following:

============================


Wizard Lord      175
Lv 4      35
Tal of Pres      45
Warhorse Barded      21

Level 2 Battle Wizard      100
Dispell Scroll      25

================================

I was planning to have both Wizards using metal Magic.

The question is, do you think Gelt is better than using a level 2 and 4?

I think it's a close call. He certainly will be able to get off some nice spells with + 2 adding to the dice roll.

I can't explain it, my collection grows like my pubic hair , but more pervasively!

Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

  • Posts: 6129
  • Attorney-at-RAW
    • View Profile
Re: Balthasar Gelt
« Reply #3 on: January 29, 2012, 12:36:39 PM »
Are you putting your wizard lord in a unit?
It is not enough to have no ideas of your own; you must also be incapable of expressing them.
Sex, lies and manuscripts: The History of the Empire as Depicted in the Art of the Time

Online commandant

  • Posts: 6297
    • View Profile
Re: Balthasar Gelt
« Reply #4 on: January 29, 2012, 12:46:38 PM »
I have not used him yet, but I would agree: a bit too expensive.

Is he really that expensive

Wizard Lord - 175
Level 4 -     35
Peggy - 50
MR (1)  - 15
Al-kahest - ????
+2 to cast (giving him +6 total) = I donno if here are any other items that do this or how much it costs for the lizardmen
+3 ward v Shooting = 40 (at least)
Loremaster (not sure how much this costs)
Ignore the first miscast (again not sure how much this should cost)

So I have 315 points and there is a load of stuff that I haven't costed.   I would suggest using him if you use SC as he is wonderful.   Rather than being over expensive he might be cheap for what he dose.   Not nearly as cheap as Karl Franz but still cheap.

Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

  • Posts: 6129
  • Attorney-at-RAW
    • View Profile
Re: Balthasar Gelt
« Reply #5 on: January 29, 2012, 01:00:36 PM »
Depends how you look at it (and I guess, against whom you want to use him). Put a wizard lord in a bunker unit and you get a 2+ ward against shooting for free. (Edit: admittedly, not against something like a HLR.) Compare him e.g. to the 475 p for Teclis.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2012, 01:11:20 PM by Fidelis von Sigmaringen »
It is not enough to have no ideas of your own; you must also be incapable of expressing them.
Sex, lies and manuscripts: The History of the Empire as Depicted in the Art of the Time

Online mr chumley warner

  • Posts: 7015
  • I have the only Battle Lord in existence!
    • View Profile
Re: Balthasar Gelt
« Reply #6 on: January 29, 2012, 01:33:41 PM »
my wizard lord sits behind my knights is the plan, so as to gain look out sir if necessary,

I'm warming to the Gelt idea

I can't explain it, my collection grows like my pubic hair , but more pervasively!

Online commandant

  • Posts: 6297
    • View Profile
Re: Balthasar Gelt
« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2012, 01:45:52 PM »
Depends how you look at it (and I guess, against whom you want to use him). Put a wizard lord in a bunker unit and you get a 2+ ward against shooting for free. (Edit: admittedly, not against something like a HLR.) Compare him e.g. to the 475 p for Teclis.

Not for free, it costs the price of the bunker and what advantage has Teclis on him.   Every double is IR.   So what price is that book anyways?   75 points?

Offline Delthos

  • Posts: 4587
  • Evil Polish Guy
    • View Profile
    • My Photobucket Ostermark Page
Re: Balthasar Gelt
« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2012, 01:58:09 PM »
I say Teclis is too cheap for what he does. I think Balthazar is just about the right cost for what he does. Don't forget he also knows all the Lore of Metal spells. You can't underestimate the value of that, especially if you also take another metal wizard. Granted he's more valuable against some armies than others. Against your average Bretonnian army, Warriors of Chaos, and even Dwarves (assuming you get past their dispelling and spell eating runes) he's amazing. Against armies with a whole lot of soft troops without good armor saves, like Empire (assuming they aren't fielding lots of Knights), Orcs & Goblins, Tomb Kings, Vampire Counts, Skaven all come to mind, he's not as good. That's not to say he won't do  good against those armies though. Everyone fails to remember that only two of the spells in the Lore actually care about the AS of the unit.
Ostermark Photo Gallery
Ostermark Painting Log
"Kill 'em all and let Morr sort 'em out!" (General Ghent, Battle of Dumsky's Fallow)

Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

  • Posts: 6129
  • Attorney-at-RAW
    • View Profile
Re: Balthasar Gelt
« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2012, 02:22:26 PM »
Advantage of Teclis:
- Valour of Ages (with Ld10 limited value, though); Speed of Asuryan
- M5 I5 Ld10
- can choose any lore of the BRB as well as High Elf Magic and knows all 6 spells.
- any succesfully cast spell with a double other than 6s is IF, but without miscast!
- each turn, he can ignore the first miscast - but the IF spell does work!
- sword of Teclis: wounds on 2+, no armour saves
- Moon staff: + D3 power/dispell dice each magic phase
- scroll of Hoeth (one use): dispell scroll; Teclis and enemy wizard also roll D6: if Teclis is higher, then the spell is removed from wizard.

Disadvantage: no mount; no armour; 2S 2T 1A: so you do need to keep him in a bunker unit and out of CC. However, with Lore of Life, you could add +4T.

Not for free, it costs the price of the bunker

While the bunker unit has a price, the unit has also a value on its own, you can use it for more  things than just wizard protection, and it is not lost with the loss of the wizard.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2012, 06:53:31 PM by Fidelis von Sigmaringen »
It is not enough to have no ideas of your own; you must also be incapable of expressing them.
Sex, lies and manuscripts: The History of the Empire as Depicted in the Art of the Time

Online mr chumley warner

  • Posts: 7015
  • I have the only Battle Lord in existence!
    • View Profile
Re: Balthasar Gelt
« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2012, 03:05:25 PM »
anyway, let's put aside the cost of a bunker unit,

do we think Gelt is worthy vs Warriors of Chaos?

IMO yes, given that my friend is likely to field 10 Knights and 40 warriors in a 4K pts game next w/e!

I can't explain it, my collection grows like my pubic hair , but more pervasively!

Online commandant

  • Posts: 6297
    • View Profile
Re: Balthasar Gelt
« Reply #11 on: January 29, 2012, 03:11:34 PM »
Yes.   In a 4k game he need not even be your general :)

Offline Delthos

  • Posts: 4587
  • Evil Polish Guy
    • View Profile
    • My Photobucket Ostermark Page
Re: Balthasar Gelt
« Reply #12 on: January 29, 2012, 06:04:36 PM »
Against Warriors of Chaos, he is most definitely worth it.
Ostermark Photo Gallery
Ostermark Painting Log
"Kill 'em all and let Morr sort 'em out!" (General Ghent, Battle of Dumsky's Fallow)

Offline Derek Contyre

  • Posts: 1718
  • Duke of Nueremburg
    • View Profile
Re: Balthasar Gelt
« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2012, 09:06:42 AM »
Against chaos, metal is the best.

I love metal, loved it since sixth edition
A man who builds his army around his fluff . . . respect . . .  :::cheers:::

Offline Fandir Nightshade

  • Posts: 8348
    • View Profile
Re: Balthasar Gelt
« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2012, 09:49:49 AM »
He is worth it against almost everything.....grave guard bunker....ok everyone on a 5+ you are dead no ward, no armour oh and all of you are stupid on what...leadership 6?



Glittering scales and blades of Aiban(or whatever) are fantastic buffs 2+ save greatswords...sure thing.

the signature spell is pretty nice too only bad spell in the lore would be those hounds even though it is nice to snipe off the rider of his dragon or the skink out of his Stegadon.

Offline The Peacemaker

  • Posts: 1763
  • Baron Karl von Balombine of Wissenland
    • View Profile
Re: Balthasar Gelt
« Reply #15 on: January 30, 2012, 12:28:18 PM »
Balthassar is worth his points.

I'll do breakdown of his estimated costs.
Level 4 + pegasus: 260pts
Staff of volans: similar items are grey wand and the book of ashur. My estimate is 70pts for the +2 to cast.
- the ignore miscast is similar to the earthing rod that let's you re-roll miscast. But with Gelt the spell doesn't go through. I estimate 20pts for this.
The +3 ward against shooty: has to be cheaper than the ToP, but it is only against shooty. 40pts.
The magic resist: book says 15.
Exploading vials: 10pts. They do wound anything and no armour save but you do need to get close and still throw it with a BS of 3.
Loremaster: old vamps book had this at 25pts.

That's 440pts by my breakdown. Considering the magic resist and the exploading vials aren't to great I'd say 400pts is spot on.
And a level 4 wizzard on pegasus with 100pts of magic gear is 370pts so gelt is a steal.
He does fill a specific role. If your gonna take  a level 4 metal wizzard on a pegasus the Gelt is the no brainer.
For Wissenland and the Countess!!!

My Painting Blog
My Entire Gallery

Offline warhammerlord_soth

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 8940
  • Eurobash : May 1st-4th 2014. Be there !
    • View Profile
    • My home Forum (dutch)
Re: Balthasar Gelt
« Reply #16 on: January 30, 2012, 02:43:52 PM »
Gelt won me a few games against WoC....  :engel:
Have one  on Midaski's tab.  :::cheers:::
Famous last words. R.I.P.

Offline Ambrose

  • Posts: 1140
    • View Profile
Re: Balthasar Gelt
« Reply #17 on: January 30, 2012, 06:20:51 PM »
I only tried him once, and was disapointed.  The 3+ ward save is only for shooting, and my Gelt got hit by magic lightning and died in turn 2.  Waaay too many points for not having a ward save for magic.

I'd go with the level 4 and level 2.
"Faith, Steel and Gunpowder"

Online mr chumley warner

  • Posts: 7015
  • I have the only Battle Lord in existence!
    • View Profile
Re: Balthasar Gelt
« Reply #18 on: January 30, 2012, 07:13:51 PM »
''I only tried him once, and was disapointed.  The 3+ ward save is only for shooting, and my Gelt got hit by magic lightning and died in turn 2.  Waaay too many points for not having a ward save for magic.

I'd go with the level 4 and level 2.''

==================================

He has a magic resistance of 1, giving him a 2+ ward vs magical attacks!

I can't explain it, my collection grows like my pubic hair , but more pervasively!

Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

  • Posts: 6129
  • Attorney-at-RAW
    • View Profile
Re: Balthasar Gelt
« Reply #19 on: January 30, 2012, 07:24:42 PM »
No, it does not: (edit: in Balthasar Gelt's case), it stacks only against magic missile attacks. So, if it was chain lightning, it would not stack. I also remember a battle report, where Baltasar Gelt (or was it just the model, representing a wizard lord on pegasus? but I have at present no time to look it up) was hit by vermintide (3D6 2S hits against the unit) the first round and killed. That would hardly have happened with a wizard in a unit.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2012, 07:31:20 PM by Fidelis von Sigmaringen »
It is not enough to have no ideas of your own; you must also be incapable of expressing them.
Sex, lies and manuscripts: The History of the Empire as Depicted in the Art of the Time

Online mr chumley warner

  • Posts: 7015
  • I have the only Battle Lord in existence!
    • View Profile
Re: Balthasar Gelt
« Reply #20 on: January 30, 2012, 08:14:12 PM »
why is that ?

 in his profile it just says the Amulet gives him a +1 magic resistance



I can't explain it, my collection grows like my pubic hair , but more pervasively!

Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

  • Posts: 6129
  • Attorney-at-RAW
    • View Profile
Re: Balthasar Gelt
« Reply #21 on: January 30, 2012, 08:24:10 PM »
Yes, but his 3+ ward is only against shooting. Therefor, you can stack the ward and the MR only against magic missiles (=shooting), not against other magic attacks.
It is not enough to have no ideas of your own; you must also be incapable of expressing them.
Sex, lies and manuscripts: The History of the Empire as Depicted in the Art of the Time

Online mr chumley warner

  • Posts: 7015
  • I have the only Battle Lord in existence!
    • View Profile
Re: Balthasar Gelt
« Reply #22 on: January 30, 2012, 08:28:56 PM »
arrrg!

no more Gelt,

i'm taking a lv 4 on horse and a lv 2!

the lv 4 can sit in my knights until they need to engage the enemy, at which point he will exit!

I can't explain it, my collection grows like my pubic hair , but more pervasively!

Offline Finlay

  • Posts: 12678
  • C'mon Son
    • View Profile
Re: Balthasar Gelt
« Reply #23 on: January 30, 2012, 09:23:56 PM »
I think you should try Gelt Chumley.

His model is cool! and don't you win most your games anyway?

Try something different out instead.

just make sure you dispell those spells which can harm him. WoC don't have vermintide or chain lightning anyway.
I don't care about the rules.

Pass the machete.

Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

  • Posts: 6129
  • Attorney-at-RAW
    • View Profile
Re: Balthasar Gelt
« Reply #24 on: January 30, 2012, 11:42:47 PM »
The model is indeed cool, and Balthasar should do well against WoC - just be careful.
Concerning the cost of characters: the numbers as given by commandant may well add up - but that is irrelevant, if they include items one does not necessarily want or need. Given his cost, I for one want him to survive, which is more likely to happen in a unit. I certainly would take Balthasar Gelt for 90 p less (in commandant's calculation), but without the 3+ ward save and with an optional mount.
It is not enough to have no ideas of your own; you must also be incapable of expressing them.
Sex, lies and manuscripts: The History of the Empire as Depicted in the Art of the Time