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Author Topic: Ogres and Ironblasters  (Read 1483 times)

Offline sammay23

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Ogres and Ironblasters
« on: February 10, 2012, 06:12:35 PM »
I'm working on a battle report for one of two losses I've had recently at the hands of an Ogres player I have consistently beaten for over six months. I think he changed one thing about his list that has reduced the effectiveness of my list dramatically.

He took a second Ironblaster.

Okay... Dwarfs can outgun us... we expect that. But Ogres? For the unindoctrinated, here's what their cannons have that makes them so lethal.

1) move and fire. My opponent starts his cannons behind obstacles. If I win first turn, guess what? They're hidden. Then on his turn, he peeks them out, hits my cannon and, usually, shatters them. I lost two in turn one last night.

2) two dice for bounce. That's right. Their cannon roll two dice for the bounce and pick the highest. This makes their cannon more reliable than ours. Much more reliable.

3) Five wounds. While they one-shot our cannon 2/3 of the time, we only do so 1/3 of the time.

4) T6 and some decent attacks. The Ironblaster is actually no slouch in combat.

Here's what it's done to my style of play:

1) I lose the long range battle. I field 3 great cannon. They have been destroyed by turn 2 in the last two games... leaving me my mortars, which he ignores.

2) I can't be aggressive with the Waltar. He's so great for an all-comers list because he negates uber-heroes and gives us lore of light, but he and the cart both get hit by a passing cannon ball. One or both get knocked out quickly. The AL is the one target he'll ignore my cannon for. Last game, I hid him behind a building.

3) They're still effective in combat! With T6 and 5 wounds, they're hard to kill and can hold up a unit for a long time.

I'll work on the bat rep this weekend. But I'm having a hard time sorting out what to do here. I don't want to change my list just for his army. It's a good, solid, list. I'm wondering if anyone else has had experience on the receiving end of two ironblasters. Any suggestions?

cheers,
Bring out the mop and broom sammay.  I want to see you clean this house.

Online Noght

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Re: Ogres and Ironblasters
« Reply #1 on: February 10, 2012, 10:39:31 PM »
Yep.  Ironblasters are now officially the best cannon in the game.   It so fits the fluff  :-D because everyone knows that Ogres are the best Engineers in the Fantasy Universe.  The ability to move and shoot breaks them.  You can only counter battery fire them and you better be over 36" away after they finish moving. 

I got called all kind of names (shocking I know  :-)) over on TWF when I dared say that "power creep" is back (comparing OnG and TK to the new OK book).  I said that they are the new Space Marines of the Fantasy World and their heads exploded, everyone is to damn tribal.  The new OK checks in right near the top with WoC, Skaven and DE as officially top tier Armies.

Don't even get me started on Leadbelchers  :icon_eek:.

Noght

p.s.  I hate to say it but maybe Shadow and Pendulum for Init test to kill them
« Last Edit: February 10, 2012, 10:41:40 PM by Noght »
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Offline Cursain

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Re: Ogres and Ironblasters
« Reply #2 on: February 10, 2012, 10:52:36 PM »
I agree 100% with everything Noght said.
Here are my recommendations:

1.  Force them to take initiative tests with spells like Pit of Shades.
2.  Position your cannons next to buildings so they limit return fire and can only be shot at from areas that either A) the person cannot hide or B) will force him to put his iron blasters in precarious positions beneficial to your deployment
3.  Position your cannons right next to, or preferably ON impassible terrain ie cliff edges.  Cannon balls cannot bounce through impassible terrain.
4.  Also, it just has a ld of 7 force it to make some break tests.
5.  Get a Capegasus with a sword of fate and charmed shield to go after it.  If the cap-peg gets the charge, then the iron blaster will be lucky to survive 1 round.  2 rounds would be a miracle.

Offline Cursain

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Re: Ogres and Ironblasters
« Reply #3 on: February 10, 2012, 11:14:31 PM »
Yep.  Ironblasters are now officially the best cannon in the game.   It so fits the fluff  :-D because everyone knows that Ogres are the best Engineers in the Fantasy Universe.  The ability to move and shoot breaks them.  You can only counter battery fire them and you better be over 36" away after they finish moving. 

I got called all kind of names (shocking I know  :-)) over on TWF when I dared say that "power creep" is back (comparing OnG and TK to the new OK book).  I said that they are the new Space Marines of the Fantasy World and their heads exploded, everyone is to damn tribal.  The new OK checks in right near the top with WoC, Skaven and DE as officially top tier Armies.

Don't even get me started on Leadbelchers  :icon_eek:.

Noght

p.s.  I hate to say it but maybe Shadow and Pendulum for Init test to kill them

Shadow is very effective vs. Ogres. 

Miasma vs. Leadbelchers -2 BS on average will force them to hit on 6 and then 4+ at Long Range.

Pit of Shades for everything else.

Offline Ambrose

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Re: Ogres and Ironblasters
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2012, 05:23:00 AM »
Many Small units may help against them too, divide up what they can and can't shoot at.  My difficulty with the ogres has been CC, as they get crazy impact hits, are tough and have 3 wounds on average.

Looking forward to the battle report.  Please post it when its done.

Ambrose
"Faith, Steel and Gunpowder"

Offline sammay23

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Re: Ogres and Ironblasters
« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2012, 08:01:01 PM »
Here's the report, folks. http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=41103.msg667837#msg667837

I certainly wished I had more maneuver elements in this game, but also note what Ambrose stated - Ogres are TOUGH in CC. Small units, even in the flank, bounce, because Ogres still get a decent number of high S attacks back.

I do know that, head on, those blocks of Halberdiers, particularly 60, wear down and defeat Ironguts and standard Ogres.

Anyway, comments on the batrep are much appreciated.
Bring out the mop and broom sammay.  I want to see you clean this house.

Online Noght

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Re: Ogres and Ironblasters
« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2012, 03:33:31 AM »
5.  Get a Capegasus with a sword of fate and charmed shield to go after it.  If the cap-peg gets the charge, then the iron blaster will be lucky to survive 1 round.  2 rounds would be a miracle.

The Sword of Fate can only target Characters or Monsters, not Warmachines.

Noght
"...the most incorrigible vice being that of an ignorance which fancies it knows everything..."  Camus.

Offline commandant

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Re: Ogres and Ironblasters
« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2012, 03:08:30 PM »
For once we have somebody other than dwarfs that can play us at our own game :)

I would suggest a helstorm rocket battery or two.   Orges don't have much (or anything) in the way of armour and they cover a lot of space so if you drop a rocket on them you should knock off some wounds.

I remarked on the report and I will say it again here, knights are very useful against ogres.   More useful than infantry.   Their long charge range means that the ogres will often not get their impact hits and the stomp does not work against cav.   A small unit of 12 - 15 normal knights with lances should do quite a lot of damage against Orges on the change and are not that effected by the cannons.   

Also I wouldn't hide the war altar, I'd get it into combat.   Both the priest and the altar have a 4+ save against the cannons so it is unlikey that they will both die in one round of shooting.   Also if the priest is not your general he can be used to draw fire so more important things, like your own artillery can be protected. :)

Also I am thinking a peggy captain or two is a good idea in order to go after the cannons.   They cost more than the peggy captain and you should not have much trouble with a 20 inch fly getting into combat with them on turn two :)
« Last Edit: February 12, 2012, 04:23:54 PM by commandant »

Offline Talben21

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Re: Ogres and Ironblasters
« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2012, 03:28:36 PM »
Commandant is 100% right about Knights against Ogres. I find cavalry weaker in this edition but I still take a unit of knights to deal with things like ogres, Rat Ogres or things with regend (I give them the Flaming Banner).

Inner circle with lances all the way!

Offline Finlay

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Re: Ogres and Ironblasters
« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2012, 03:43:28 PM »
Obviously the Ogres cannons, stolen from the sky titans, are more destructive and reliable than empire and dwarven engineering.
/epic fail gw.
I don't care about the rules.

Pass the machete.

Offline Fandir Nightshade

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Re: Ogres and Ironblasters
« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2012, 03:48:06 PM »
yes it is stupid but lets not forget we profited from that kind of stuff too ...war altar.

so how about a peggie captain with the mask of iiiieeek....Terror vs ld 7 is nice too. I think we just have to learn that we need some artillery hunting too now instead of just letting the cannons do all the anti artillery we ever needed.



Also the gw tactical advice on the Ironblaster made me laugh

especially what I bolded out

Jeremy Vetock from Games Development says:
The first few times I used an Ironblaster I fielded it as I would a cannon, which is pretty nasty. However, the Ironblaster can do more - it is a move and fire chariot with a special Strength 10 grapeshot blast. It is pulled by a powerful Rhinox and crewed by an Ogre (okay, there is a Gnoblar Scrapper on there too, but I think you know who'll cause most of the damage). So move up close, shooting as you go and then charge in combat or unleash with some Strength 10 grapeshot! Try advancing along one side of the battlefield, as you might get some spectacular flank shots into vulnerable enemy formations (armoured knights being my favourite target).


He doesn´t sound like a game developer...but little timmy born again.


« Last Edit: February 13, 2012, 03:50:43 PM by Fandir Nightshade »
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Offline Athiuen

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Re: Ogres and Ironblasters
« Reply #11 on: February 13, 2012, 10:01:14 PM »
ironblaster causes fear, so terror is a no-go.
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They fired at a can of Heineken.
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Offline Finlay

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Re: Ogres and Ironblasters
« Reply #12 on: February 13, 2012, 10:13:10 PM »
I can handle things having good units. I can handle Ogres slaughtering us in close combat.

But I cannot handle Ogres having the best cannon in the game.
Freaking ogres! They can barely make armour. Shocking decision.
I don't care about the rules.

Pass the machete.

Online Noght

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Re: Ogres and Ironblasters
« Reply #13 on: February 13, 2012, 10:50:11 PM »
I'd hate to say that maybe they made it sooooo good as to sell Ironblasters but that would be just cynical on my part.  What was the retail price for that thing?

Noght
"...the most incorrigible vice being that of an ignorance which fancies it knows everything..."  Camus.

Offline commandant

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Re: Ogres and Ironblasters
« Reply #14 on: February 14, 2012, 06:27:15 PM »
I have been thinking (it is about here that the entire fourm is going to start jumping up an down and screaming).   Is the Ironblaster really that much of a problem fluff wise.

The stupid model aside all you have is a cannon that moves.   It has some other abilities but it is just a cannon that moves.   Not only that but it is a massive cannon.   The cannons that normal orges carry are the same size as empire cannons so why shouldn't their massive cannons be bigger.

Maybe it is undercosted but in the game I played against Soth where he fielded two of them I did not think they had that great an impact on the game.   I think we need to look past the type and see that they are really quite expensive considering that any decent war machine hunter will take them out fairly easily. 

Offline Cursain

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Re: Ogres and Ironblasters
« Reply #15 on: February 14, 2012, 08:14:51 PM »
I think we need to look past the type and see that they are really quite expensive considering that any decent war machine hunter will take them out fairly easily.

Not to argue commandant, but a 5W/T6 model with 3 S4 attacks + 2 S5 attacks is not easy for many "war machine" hunter units to beat.  It would give the average Capegasus a run for its money.

-Cursain

Offline commandant

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Re: Ogres and Ironblasters
« Reply #16 on: February 14, 2012, 08:28:26 PM »
3 S4 + 2 S5 (what are the 2 S5.   I assume that you mean a stomp).   Anyways I was thinking that it is only leadership 7 so it needs to do a wound just to cancel out your charge

Offline Cursain

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Re: Ogres and Ironblasters
« Reply #17 on: February 14, 2012, 08:32:43 PM »
3 S4 + 2 S5 (what are the 2 S5.   I assume that you mean a stomp).   Anyways I was thinking that it is only leadership 7 so it needs to do a wound just to cancel out your charge

The Rhinox pulling the IronBlaster get's two S5 attacks.  Like Noght said, it also has a S10 grape shot, and if it wants to, can charge instead and get D6 S5 impact hits.  The thing is the Dairy Queen version of the Full Meal Deal.

Offline commandant

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Re: Ogres and Ironblasters
« Reply #18 on: February 14, 2012, 08:40:00 PM »
3 S4 + 2 S5 (what are the 2 S5.   I assume that you mean a stomp).   Anyways I was thinking that it is only leadership 7 so it needs to do a wound just to cancel out your charge

The Rhinox pulling the IronBlaster get's two S5 attacks.  Like Noght said, it also has a S10 grape shot, and if it wants to, can charge instead and get D6 S5 impact hits.  The thing is the Dairy Queen version of the Full Meal Deal.

I'm not saying that it is not good, just that it is not as good as all the hype seems to be.   I assume that it is WS 3 which means out of those five attacks it is doing 2 hits against most war machine hunters.   I assume that both of them will wound, though against peggy captains and things they might not.   Therefore it is winning combat by 1 normally.   So the War machine hunters need to do 1 wound in order to draw combat.

Gutter runners, dwarf miners, peggy captains should be able to manage that :)   Sure for the first time the Empire has to worry about war machine hunting instead of just counter fire but I can get a nice peggy captain for 170 points that will make mince meat out of your orge thing.

Captain, Peggy, full plate, lance, pistol maybe.   There we go, I can get three of them for the price of 2 iron blasters   :)

Offline Cursain

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Re: Ogres and Ironblasters
« Reply #19 on: February 14, 2012, 09:10:43 PM »
True but that's all in a vacuum.  Chances are the Peg Knights would need to survive one or two rounds of Leadbelcher shooting.  That D6 shots per model @ S4 -2 save are a bi**h vs. peg knights.

The Ironblasters could always choose to hit them with a cannon ball too.  It's not hard to do with their bounce rule, and scoring 3 wounds on a D6....

Offline zifnab0

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Re: Ogres and Ironblasters
« Reply #20 on: February 14, 2012, 09:32:04 PM »
I'd hate to say that maybe they made it sooooo good as to sell Ironblasters but that would be just cynical on my part.  What was the retail price for that thing?

Noght
$33.  Not that expensive, relatively speaking.

Cannons are $25.

Offline Jörgen Andreasson

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Re: Ogres and Ironblasters
« Reply #21 on: February 14, 2012, 09:58:13 PM »
Another weakness of the Ironblaster is that it can't change facing in the shooting phase, right?

This also means that you can force it to make a hard decision on what to shoot at and then be flank charged if you position your units correctly, such as your cannons or other juicy targets.

Offline Athiuen

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Re: Ogres and Ironblasters
« Reply #22 on: February 15, 2012, 01:26:01 AM »
If it's a war machine then it gets a free pivot.  If it's a chariot then no it can't change it's facing.
Quote from: warhammerlord_soth
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They fired at a can of Heineken.
The end is Neigh! [sic]
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Curse you clearly-written rules!

Online Noght

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Re: Ogres and Ironblasters
« Reply #23 on: February 15, 2012, 05:03:08 AM »
Another weakness of the Ironblaster is that it can't change facing in the shooting phase, right?

This also means that you can force it to make a hard decision on what to shoot at and then be flank charged if you position your units correctly, such as your cannons or other juicy targets.

Moves like a Chariot, so it can only charge like a Chariot.  The fact that it can move and shoot either the Cannonball or the Grapeshop makes it nigh impossible to charge, Flyers need a swiftstride 9 and Knights need a swiftstride 12 to avoid the Grapeshot.  And just an FYI it get to roll 2 dice for the bounce roll taking the best of the two, only sticks 1 in 36 rather than 1 in 6 and usually makes the bounce it needs to hit.  If it had a 48 range and no move and shoot no one would care, just a good cannon then.

Noght
"...the most incorrigible vice being that of an ignorance which fancies it knows everything..."  Camus.

Offline Athiuen

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Re: Ogres and Ironblasters
« Reply #24 on: February 15, 2012, 09:44:35 AM »
Well. it doesn't actually take the best of the two, it takes the higher.  This could be a problem if you underestimate how far it will go, but really, you'd have to be an idiot.
Quote from: warhammerlord_soth
No beer was wasted.
They fired at a can of Heineken.
The end is Neigh! [sic]
Quote from: Swan-of-War
Curse you clearly-written rules!