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Author Topic: steadfast detachments unofficial confirmation  (Read 151245 times)

Offline Noght

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Re: steadfast detachments unofficial confirmation
« Reply #225 on: April 24, 2012, 08:48:12 PM »
Quote
I see what you did there  :lol:   We'll play it by the rulebook definition of steadfast (the whole definition, not a cherry picked sentence), thanks anyway.   :wink:

Almost 100% certainty that any FAQ will confirm Fidelis' and my position or they will reword it completely to say something like "count Regiment or Detachment's ranks (whichever is greater) to determine steadfast."

Noght

It better be! cause its now written in stone that Noght will "EatCow" if the FAQ confirms the other interpretation.

I'd be happy to as long as they clear it up!  Eating Pigeon Bomb instead of Crow.... :blush:

Noght
« Last Edit: April 25, 2012, 01:46:37 AM by Noght »
"...the most incorrigible vice being that of an ignorance which fancies it knows everything..."  Camus.

Offline redflag

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Re: steadfast detachments unofficial confirmation
« Reply #226 on: October 20, 2012, 02:01:13 PM »
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2710127a_Empire_v1.0.pdf
I think you are a rules lawyer.  You are focusing on one part of the Steadfast rules without looking at its context in order to defeat the whole point of detachments being an asset and not a liability to the Empire. Its not like its clearly stated that you are correct yet you insist of an interpretation of the rules which make detachments pointless due to the fact that they can panic units within 6 inches of them  (due to breaking in combat/taking 25% casualties/ being annihilated) yet apparently they are not aware that their parent unit that is within 3 inches is larger than the unit that is attacking them.  Its not like you are giving a good reason behind your interpretation of the rules in order to improve game play, instead you are using a loophole at worst/taking advantage of sloppy written rules at best to gut detachments. Remember if the detachment fails its Steadfast break test it causes a panic test on the parent unit.
Show me where I am wrong, and I will happily change my point of view. If an army book has new rules, I prefer to look how they fit within the rules of the BRB. One cannot even claim that the rules are not clear. Choosing an option that is in accordance with both the army book and the BRB is not rules lawyering - it is just not indulging in wishful thinking.
The fact that the rules do not benefit detachments is no valid argument against the rules. Was it the intent of GW that it should be different? We do not know. If it is, they will hopefully soon say that the rules must be changed or that the detachments are an exception to the rule. Until then, there is no reason not to play by the rules as they are.

Offline redflag

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Re: steadfast detachments unofficial confirmation
« Reply #227 on: October 20, 2012, 02:02:18 PM »
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2710127a_Empire_v1.0.pdf
Quote
That's always been the problem, tactically you always charge the detachment and blow it up.  And honestly Detachments were always MEH but at least you can now make them Stubborn w/GS or CoC character in Regiment.

Noght

But now they are better as they get steadfast from the parent unit's ranks whether it is in combat or not.  ::heretic::

I see what you did there  :lol:   We'll play it by the rulebook definition of steadfast (the whole definition, not a cherry picked sentence), thanks anyway.   :wink:

Almost 100% certainty that any FAQ will confirm Fidelis' and my position or they will reword it completely to say something like "count Regiment or Detachment's ranks (whichever is greater) to determine steadfast."

Noght

Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: steadfast detachments unofficial confirmation
« Reply #228 on: October 20, 2012, 02:03:59 PM »
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2710127a_Empire_v1.0.pdf
I think you are a rules lawyer.  You are focusing on one part of the Steadfast rules without looking at its context in order to defeat the whole point of detachments being an asset and not a liability to the Empire. Its not like its clearly stated that you are correct yet you insist of an interpretation of the rules which make detachments pointless due to the fact that they can panic units within 6 inches of them  (due to breaking in combat/taking 25% casualties/ being annihilated) yet apparently they are not aware that their parent unit that is within 3 inches is larger than the unit that is attacking them.  Its not like you are giving a good reason behind your interpretation of the rules in order to improve game play, instead you are using a loophole at worst/taking advantage of sloppy written rules at best to gut detachments. Remember if the detachment fails its Steadfast break test it causes a panic test on the parent unit.
Show me where I am wrong, and I will happily change my point of view. If an army book has new rules, I prefer to look how they fit within the rules of the BRB. One cannot even claim that the rules are not clear. Choosing an option that is in accordance with both the army book and the BRB is not rules lawyering - it is just not indulging in wishful thinking.
The fact that the rules do not benefit detachments is no valid argument against the rules. Was it the intent of GW that it should be different? We do not know. If it is, they will hopefully soon say that the rules must be changed or that the detachments are an exception to the rule. Until then, there is no reason not to play by the rules as they are.

I put the relevant part in bold here.
It is not enough to have no ideas of your own; you must also be incapable of expressing them.
Sex, lies and manuscripts: The History of the Empire as Depicted in the Art of the Time (10/07/16)

Offline Noght

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Re: steadfast detachments unofficial confirmation
« Reply #229 on: October 22, 2012, 10:56:17 PM »
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2710127a_Empire_v1.0.pdf
Quote
That's always been the problem, tactically you always charge the detachment and blow it up.  And honestly Detachments were always MEH but at least you can now make them Stubborn w/GS or CoC character in Regiment.

Noght

But now they are better as they get steadfast from the parent unit's ranks whether it is in combat or not.  ::heretic::

I see what you did there  :lol:   We'll play it by the rulebook definition of steadfast (the whole definition, not a cherry picked sentence), thanks anyway.   :wink:

Almost 100% certainty that any FAQ will confirm Fidelis' and my position or they will reword it completely to say something like "count Regiment or Detachment's ranks (whichever is greater) to determine steadfast."

Noght

Check out the last last sentence.  It's almost like ESP....

At least it wasn't a silly thread like a detachment counter charging a chariot to prevent impact hits.  Who thinks that way?  :icon_wink:
Good times...
http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=42228.0
« Last Edit: October 22, 2012, 11:01:57 PM by Noght »
"...the most incorrigible vice being that of an ignorance which fancies it knows everything..."  Camus.

Offline commandant

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Re: steadfast detachments unofficial confirmation
« Reply #230 on: October 23, 2012, 09:49:39 AM »
At least it wasn't a silly thread like a detachment counter charging a chariot to prevent impact hits.  Who thinks that way?  :icon_wink:
Good times...

People who are more interested in winning then playing the game

Offline Noght

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Re: steadfast detachments unofficial confirmation
« Reply #231 on: October 23, 2012, 11:09:02 AM »
At least it wasn't a silly thread like a detachment counter charging a chariot to prevent impact hits.  Who thinks that way?  :icon_wink:
Good times...

People who are more interested in winning then playing the game

Just pointing out a hint of hypocrisy is all.  The Flag was doing quite a few victory laps so a little reminder of what FAQ based on the actual rule book looked liked, as compared to the Steadfast "out of the blue" ruling.   Just saying.
"...the most incorrigible vice being that of an ignorance which fancies it knows everything..."  Camus.

Offline redflag

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Re: steadfast detachments unofficial confirmation
« Reply #232 on: October 29, 2012, 10:00:44 AM »
You know I actually pity you rather than admit your interpretation of the rules was wrong you attack other people.
At least it wasn't a silly thread like a detachment counter charging a chariot to prevent impact hits.  Who thinks that way?  :icon_wink:
Good times...

People who are more interested in winning then playing the game

Just pointing out a hint of hypocrisy is all.  The Flag was doing quite a few victory laps so a little reminder of what FAQ based on the actual rule book looked liked, as compared to the Steadfast "out of the blue" ruling.   Just saying.

Offline Noght

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Re: steadfast detachments unofficial confirmation
« Reply #233 on: October 29, 2012, 11:13:39 AM »
You know I actually pity you rather than admit your interpretation of the rules was wrong you attack other people.
At least it wasn't a silly thread like a detachment counter charging a chariot to prevent impact hits.  Who thinks that way?  :icon_wink:
Good times...

People who are more interested in winning then playing the game

Just pointing out a hint of hypocrisy is all.  The Flag was doing quite a few victory laps so a little reminder of what FAQ based on the actual rule book looked liked, as compared to the Steadfast "out of the blue" ruling.   Just saying.

 :icon_lol:

This from the guy who calls people "border-line" autistic for not agreeing with him.  Rich.

My "rules interpretation" of Steadfast and Detachments is just fine, the FAQ on the other hand is a completely differant rule (that they still left it lame and murky, apparently like you GW doesn't read their own Rulebook).   :icon_wink:

No pity needed from the WAACy, Conga-liney, Cherry-picking redflag.
"...the most incorrigible vice being that of an ignorance which fancies it knows everything..."  Camus.

Offline redflag

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Re: steadfast detachments unofficial confirmation
« Reply #234 on: October 29, 2012, 10:30:43 PM »
Of course your rules interpretation is "just fine".  Couple months back you and your fellow "buddies" were attacking anyone one who interpreted the rules to be  what the FAQ stated just recently.  Now of course rather than admit you are "wrong" now its GW that is making up a new rule.
You know I actually pity you rather than admit your interpretation of the rules was wrong you attack other people.
At least it wasn't a silly thread like a detachment counter charging a chariot to prevent impact hits.  Who thinks that way?  :icon_wink:
Good times...

People who are more interested in winning then playing the game

Just pointing out a hint of hypocrisy is all.  The Flag was doing quite a few victory laps so a little reminder of what FAQ based on the actual rule book looked liked, as compared to the Steadfast "out of the blue" ruling.   Just saying.

 :icon_lol:

This from the guy who calls people "border-line" autistic for not agreeing with him.  Rich.

My "rules interpretation" of Steadfast and Detachments is just fine, the FAQ on the other hand is a completely differant rule (that they still left it lame and murky, apparently like you GW doesn't read their own Rulebook).   :icon_wink:

No pity needed from the WAACy, Conga-liney, Cherry-picking redflag.

Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: steadfast detachments unofficial confirmation
« Reply #235 on: October 29, 2012, 10:58:41 PM »
Actually, the FAQ as they currently are have not been argued by anyone. Regarding the arguments you put forward, you might just as well have argued that the solution to a mathematical equation is 6, because 3 + green + a scratchy nose adds up in your opinion to 6. In the end, the correct solution turns out to be 6.5. At least in my school, you still would have failed the exam. :dry:
It is not enough to have no ideas of your own; you must also be incapable of expressing them.
Sex, lies and manuscripts: The History of the Empire as Depicted in the Art of the Time (10/07/16)

Offline Noght

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Re: steadfast detachments unofficial confirmation
« Reply #236 on: October 30, 2012, 12:55:09 AM »
Of course your rules interpretation is "just fine".  Couple months back you and your fellow "buddies" were attacking anyone one who interpreted the rules to be  what the FAQ stated just recently.  Now of course rather than admit you are "wrong" now its GW that is making up a new rule.

I think if you look at the new thread everyone except you thinks GW is making up a new rule.  Please continue with the Victory Lap.   :icon_smile:
Now we're trying to figure out what the heck they want us to do.....
"...the most incorrigible vice being that of an ignorance which fancies it knows everything..."  Camus.

Offline redflag

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Re: steadfast detachments unofficial confirmation
« Reply #237 on: October 30, 2012, 01:13:28 AM »
Back in the real world we play warhammer using the FAQ that GW makes as the final word since its "official".  Please cut the nonsense about people not agreeing about the meaning of the FAQ .  Its crystal clear and no amount of posting in this forum to the contrary will change it. Stop the whining about a magical new rule/ GW not reading their own rules etc  and get used to the concept of detachments using the ranks of the parent unit to determine if they are stubborn (despite the parent unit not being in combat).
Actually, the FAQ as they currently are have not been argued by anyone. Regarding the arguments you put forward, you might just as well have argued that the solution to a mathematical equation is 6, because 3 + green + a scratchy nose adds up in your opinion to 6. In the end, the correct solution turns out to be 6.5. At least in my school, you still would have failed the exam. :dry:
« Last Edit: October 30, 2012, 01:20:29 AM by redflag »

Offline Noght

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Re: steadfast detachments unofficial confirmation
« Reply #238 on: October 30, 2012, 03:03:30 AM »
Back in the real world we play warhammer using the FAQ that GW makes as the final word since its "official".  Please cut the nonsense about people not agreeing about the meaning of the FAQ .  Its crystal clear and no amount of posting in this forum to the contrary will change it. Stop the whining about a magical new rule/ GW not reading their own rules etc  and get used to the concept of detachments using the ranks of the parent unit to determine if they are stubborn (despite the parent unit not being in combat).

First it's Steadfast not stubborn.  :icon_wink:  We all know how to handle Stubborn Regiments and Detachments.

You should come over here and read some stuff and bloviate some more.
http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=44074.0
"...the most incorrigible vice being that of an ignorance which fancies it knows everything..."  Camus.

Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: steadfast detachments unofficial confirmation
« Reply #239 on: October 30, 2012, 09:23:03 AM »
Back in the real world we play warhammer using the FAQ that GW makes as the final word since its "official".  Please cut the nonsense about people not agreeing about the meaning of the FAQ .  Its crystal clear and no amount of posting in this forum to the contrary will change it. Stop the whining about a magical new rule/ GW not reading their own rules etc  and get used to the concept of detachments using the ranks of the parent unit to determine if they are stubborn (despite the parent unit not being in combat).

Strange, I cannot see anything in my post about what you claim here. It seems you read posts as you read the BRB (your continuous confusion of stubborn being another example, as Noght points out). But, of course, you simply want to dodge the observations I made.

1. In this or any other thread about steadfast, I have not seen anyone arguing in support of this part of the FAQ:

However, if a Regimental Unit is involved in a separate combat in which it is not Steadfast due to the number of enemy ranks, then its Detachments are not Steadfast either, even if the Regimental unit has more ranks than the enemy unit actually attacking its Detachment.

As it is written, this also means that in this case the Detachment cannot be steadfast, even if it itself would have more ranks than its enemy.

2. The arguments that in previous threads were put forward in support of the first part of the FAQ:

- It is simple
- We play it like that

Of course, the arguments you yourself added really clinched it:

- Otherwise the Detachment rule is worthless
- "Simply put, a unit is considered to be steadfast if it has more ranks than its enemy" does not mean it needs to be in combat.

Or in other words: 3 + green + a scratchy nose = 6.

That said, both Noght and I envisaged the possibility that the (first part of) FAQ could turn out that way - even though it did not (and still does not) have any support whatsoever in anything written in either the BRB and Army Book.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2012, 09:41:52 AM by Fidelis von Sigmaringen »
It is not enough to have no ideas of your own; you must also be incapable of expressing them.
Sex, lies and manuscripts: The History of the Empire as Depicted in the Art of the Time (10/07/16)