Topic: Compare the mortar to 8th edition alternatives

[Furball]

True, but if I used that argument people would reply "Yes, but you can't rely on magic for the effectiveness of a unit."

Just looking at the numbers if the Mortar was left at S3. One direct hit on Halberdiers, 35 models hit, 17.5 wounded, 17.5 killed. 17.5 Halberdiers cost 105 points now. The Mortar would be way too powerful for 100 points at that strength. One direct hit would earn its points back. At the moment, it gets 70% of its points back with one direct hit to Halberdiers.

[The Peacemaker]

But all of the rock lobbers are much better against monsters and large, multi-wound models than the mortar.

This is better compared to cannons then.

8th ed migh be called "monsterhammer" but its really just "herohammer" by another name.

After making some lists and plyaing a few games, it really does seem like HeroHammer.

Why take overcosted infantry or units. Just throw everything into 1 model and fly around the board.

[MarkoV]

Even if you are going to kill zombies, horde of em, Mortar is less needed. And how da hell can eng influence him? He can reroll his artilery dice, but only scatter dice is usefull. You know, that HIT! sign? Str 2 is just way to....weak. Even if it costed 20 points with this rules, i wouldn't include it.
And yes, you can tell me about numbers and calculations, and etc, but in real game (3kgames that my company prefferes), i never used those. And i have almost 100% win score. For 2 reasons,  1 proper usage of my units, 2 NOT USING MORTAR

You better go improve your win ratio then. This forum is only for real men with a win ratio of 120% or more. 

I think the mortar may still be worth it from time to time. I'll try three against daemons this weekend.

kekeekekkekeke Thanks for info

Please, inform us how your mortars failed to do anything, will w8 here with "itoldyouso" face  

[abdulaapocolyps]

Both of the rock lobbers do less damage against hordes and the range of the magma cannon is tiny.   Yeah they are all much better

Suppose a T3 10 x 5 horde:

Lobber: 21 hits, 10,5 wounds
Mortar: 33 hits, 11 wounds

[/quote

  How are you hitting 21 people with a small template?

[Nexus]

Maybe these are nifty for this conversation...





Credit to the guy that made these (no idea who, though...)

[Noght]

Maybe these are nifty for this conversation...

Credit to the guy that made these (no idea who, though...)

His moniker is Domus.  Lives in Central Illinois.  He and some buddies have a painting/modeling website:  magnificentbastards.com (methinks).

Great painters and real good players, always top of tourney rankings.

Noght

[Furball]

Both of the rock lobbers do less damage against hordes and the range of the magma cannon is tiny.   Yeah they are all much better

Suppose a T3 10 x 5 horde:

Lobber: 21 hits, 10,5 wounds
Mortar: 33 hits, 11 wounds

  How are you hitting 21 people with a small template?

I worked it out both mathematically and with a diagram. The small template can hit a 5x5 square of 20mm models, but due to the circle the four corner ones aren't hit. 25-4=21.

[Freman Bloodglaive]

It's another weapon where we're paying for the effect a successful spell could provide. Debuffing toughness with shadow, or giving +1 to wound with fire makes the S2 mortar worth more than 100 points.

We really need magic to run don't we? What are we? Undead?

Though admittedly it was our general squishiness against other armies that led to the creation of the Colleges of Magic.

[rufus sparkfire]

It's another weapon where we're paying for the effect a successful spell could provide.

That can't be true. The writer can't have been that stupid!

[Freman Bloodglaive]

It's another weapon where we're paying for the effect a successful spell could provide.

That can't be true. The writer can't have been that stupid!

 

I don't know about that.

That said, I think I might need a level 2 shadow as well as my level 4.

[abdulaapocolyps]

you know whats funny, my freind plays Orks and gobbos and he basically wrote that book off as competitive but their lores, though not overly killer, are subtle as hell and if your careful and use the magic right, they are really good,.
  I think the same applies here - we need buffs, magic and general smart play.  I think it really adds to the chess match of the whole thing.  Remeber ifit was the other way around where we paid 50 for the new weaker mortar then did as the last poster said, buffed / defbuffed the unit people would call it cheesey.
  I wasn't going to use a mortar but now you mention the idea of buffing / debuffing... I can see it's uses.

[cisse]

However, points cannot be compared directly from one army to another - you have to take into account synergy with other units in the army list. Our Mortars can be influenced by Engineers, can be taken alongside other artillery, are a special choice. All these things need to be taken into account with the points.

I agree that a direct comparison of points is not the best way to compare units. However why do you think an engineer is still a good choice to accompany a mortar? He has to declare which warmachine he's going to help at the start of the shooting phase so either he has better things to do (helblaster) or in the other case, if you get an engineer just for the mortar, you just made your 100pt S2 warmachine 65pts more expensive. Totally not worth it.

And buffing the mortar with magic is all nice, but too situational. You have to use most of your power dice to do it, the opponent has to not dispell it, and then you have to hit with your mortar. So, far too random.

[rufus sparkfire]

I think mortars should cost 200 points, because sometimes a wizard might cast exactly the right spell at exactly the right time, and then I might roll all 6s to wound.

Or I could cast an equally effective spell on another unit entirely, and not waste time and effort trying to make an overpriced weapon look good.

[Freman Bloodglaive]

Except debuffing toughness is part of our standard operating procedure now. Making halberds and crossbows wound on 2s helps our less than spectacular infantry cause casualties, and dropping a large template on a debuffed unit can only be a good thing.

Debuffs make every unit, including our mortars, better. If I recall correctly none of the armies whose template weapons are being compared to ours have access to shadow magic.

[rufus sparkfire]

So you're saying that the list assumes we'll be using shadow magic, and things are deliberately overpriced unless we do.

Why not charge more points for a shadow wizard then?

[Noght]

Debuffs make every unit, including our mortars, better. If I recall correctly none of the armies whose template weapons are being compared to ours have access to shadow magic.

Because S3 Template weapons don't need the Toughness Debuff.
Death and Ogres get access to Tough Debuff and Template.
Skaven and Wither get is a Permanent Tough Debuff with a No AS Template and Cannon Ball Template.
Counting on Magic to be available to make an Artillery piece to work is folly, and by extension so is hoping for WP prayers.
New Empire = Tomb Kings with the reliance on Magic/Prayers and are one critical 3 dice magic phase away from defeat, may as well play craps.

Noght

[Furball]

I agree that a direct comparison of points is not the best way to compare units. However why do you think an engineer is still a good choice to accompany a mortar? He has to declare which warmachine he's going to help at the start of the shooting phase so either he has better things to do (helblaster) or in the other case, if you get an engineer just for the mortar, you just made your 100pt S2 warmachine 65pts more expensive. Totally not worth it.

And buffing the mortar with magic is all nice, but too situational. You have to use most of your power dice to do it, the opponent has to not dispell it, and then you have to hit with your mortar. So, far too random.

I don't think using an engineer for a mortar is a good choice, however my point was that each unit needs to be priced in mind of the other units in the army. A ranged unit is a lot more valuable to some armies compared to others.

The mortar does get better if you start syncing it with other units/magic, however without the buff it still isn't a terrible choice. Yes, it isn't our best option but it is far from a terrible choice. Compared to other 8th pieces, it doesn't price up too bad.

[Finlay]

True, but if I used that argument people would reply "Yes, but you can't rely on magic for the effectiveness of a unit."

Just looking at the numbers if the Mortar was left at S3. One direct hit on Halberdiers, 35 models hit, 17.5 wounded, 17.5 killed. 17.5 Halberdiers cost 105 points now. The Mortar would be way too powerful for 100 points at that strength. One direct hit would earn its points back. At the moment, it gets 70% of its points back with one direct hit to Halberdiers.

but now with engineers being less good, it has a much higher chance to misfire, and a much higher chance to miss completely.
And it is likely to only get 2 or 3 shots and then get eaten by war machine hunters.

[Fandir Nightshade]

Cannon can make its points back several times with one proper hit.

As can one mage casting the right spell.

Rufus has nailed it. And I guess Mortar has to yield to Hellblaster.

[pippin_nl]

I agree that a direct comparison of points is not the best way to compare units. However why do you think an engineer is still a good choice to accompany a mortar? He has to declare which warmachine he's going to help at the start of the shooting phase so either he has better things to do (helblaster) or in the other case, if you get an engineer just for the mortar, you just made your 100pt S2 warmachine 65pts more expensive. Totally not worth it.

And buffing the mortar with magic is all nice, but too situational. You have to use most of your power dice to do it, the opponent has to not dispell it, and then you have to hit with your mortar. So, far too random.

I don't think using an engineer for a mortar is a good choice, however my point was that each unit needs to be priced in mind of the other units in the army. A ranged unit is a lot more valuable to some armies compared to others.

The mortar does get better if you start syncing it with other units/magic, however without the buff it still isn't a terrible choice. Yes, it isn't our best option but it is far from a terrible choice. Compared to other 8th pieces, it doesn't price up too bad.

I agree that you have to look at the role a war machine plays in the army, let's compare (only compared with 8th edition):

TK: A lot of weak magic, great BS shooting, below average combat > need strong war machines > skull catapult is the best 8th edition template war machine

O&G: below average magic, bad BS shooting, above average combat, some special tricks (manglers & fanatics) > need average war machines > rock lobber is average

Empire: above average magic, bad BS shooting, weak combat, some special tricks (steam tank, war wagons, good saves) > need strong war machines > cannon is great, hellblaster is average, hellstorm is weak, mortar is weak

VC and Ogre Kingdoms have no war machines, although the Ogres have monsters and chariots that do the same

Conclusion: none of our other war machines comes close to the performance our cannons and yes cannons outperform war machines of other armies, but empire needs more diversity!

[Uryens de Crux]

Rufus has nailed it. And I guess Mortar has to yield to Hellblaster

In all honesty, having played Empire v Empire and on the first turn, facing 3 mortars, seen my army melted in front of my by some accurate mortar fire, I am pretty damned glad really.

[Furball]

O&G: below average magic, bad BS shooting, above average combat, some special tricks (manglers & fanatics) > need average war machines > rock lobber is average

Empire: above average magic, bad BS shooting, weak combat, some special tricks (steam tank, war wagons, good saves) > need strong war machines > cannon is great, hellblaster is average, hellstorm is weak, mortar is weak

How is the Rock Lobber is average whilst the Mortar is weak, even though the numbers show otherwise. The Rock Lobber can play both roles as either a monster killer or a horde killer, but isn't as good as the cannon for killing monsters and isn't as good as the mortar at killing hordes (besides T4,4+ where it is very close).

The Mortar has been downgraded from an awesome must-take in every army, to an average piece of equipment that is overshadowed by other warmachines. I don't expect to see it in hardcore tournament lists, but it is still an acceptable choice for every other list.

[Nexus]

And it is likely to only get 2 or 3 shots and then get eaten by war machine hunters.

If it's so terribly bad, surely those warmachine hunters would prioritize our other war machines, no?

[pippin_nl]

O&G: below average magic, bad BS shooting, above average combat, some special tricks (manglers & fanatics) > need average war machines > rock lobber is average

Empire: above average magic, bad BS shooting, weak combat, some special tricks (steam tank, war wagons, good saves) > need strong war machines > cannon is great, hellblaster is average, hellstorm is weak, mortar is weak

How is the Rock Lobber is average whilst the Mortar is weak, even though the numbers show otherwise. The Rock Lobber can play both roles as either a monster killer or a horde killer, but isn't as good as the cannon for killing monsters and isn't as good as the mortar at killing hordes (besides T4,4+ where it is very close).

The Mortar has been downgraded from an awesome must-take in every army, to an average piece of equipment that is overshadowed by other warmachines. I don't expect to see it in hardcore tournament lists, but it is still an acceptable choice for every other list.

The rock lobber is only a tiny bit worse versus a horde or 35+ model bus made up of T3 models, but a little better versus all smaller infantry units. Don't forget that after a template hit a unit has become smaller as well. Also the fact that it had a dual option is always a bonus and does make it better. The fact that it is 15pts cheaper is also good. At 70 -80 points I would consider the current mortar also average.

[Fandir Nightshade]

Cheaper and it doubles for Warmachine and Monster hunting with the S9 d6 wounds under the central hole.