Topic: Compare the mortar to 8th edition alternatives

[Finlay]

And it is likely to only get 2 or 3 shots and then get eaten by war machine hunters.

If it's so terribly bad, surely those warmachine hunters would prioritize our other war machines, no?

they wont need to, because no one will take mortars.

In all seriousness though, I was talking about the silly argument that one mortar hit might make it's points up.

Yes but 1/6 chance to misfire, only 1/3 chance to hit, probably only gets 2-3 shots before it is killed.

Same reason as a cannon can kill a giant in one shot, and make more than its points back instantly, but it can also kill itself on the first turn.

[rufus sparkfire]

Especially since cannons are twice as likely to explode using the 8th edition misfire chart.

[Fandir Nightshade]

 

[rufus sparkfire]

Funny how people who say cannons became a lot better in 8th edition don't mention the new misfire chart.

[commandant]

I see your misfire chart and raise you one engineer with pigeon bombs

[pippin_nl]

I see your misfire chart and raise you one engineer with pigeon bombs

I usually deploy cannons on the far sides (flank shots). The pidgeoneer has to be deployed closer to the enemy though. Still not convinced about the pidgeoneer though.

[Danny76]

In my big battle foam case for empire I have room for six warmachines. And through the ages I had collected 2 of each of cannon, Battery and volley gun. I never got 2 mortars because I wasn't fond, though thu weren't bad.
Now they've become bad. Boy am I happy I never bothered. If had been any of the others..
(I particularly really like the new volley gun method).

We shouldn't complain though I guess, don't they say things aren't comparable singularly as they are costed into an army. So the other warmachines are perhaps costed so because some of their other units are overpriced compared to ours?
Either way, still annoying for those that took them..

[Nexus]

Seriously people, Furball has shown that the mortar isn't as bad as you think. If you're gonna keep moaning, you have to come up with a challenge to his calculations. Otherwise, it's just empty whining.

[Skyros]

A small template direct hit is going to hit 21 of your infantry in your regiment, barely less than a large template hitting that same regiment

Last I checked 21 was not barely less than 35 (assuming that Furball's math is correct). It's actually more than a 50% difference.

Who runs 35 man regiments? No one in my area.

People run 25 man units or giant hordes.

If you're shooting at a normal 25 man unit (or any small elite unit) a small S3 template is hands down better than a large S2 one.

And if you ARE shooting at a horde shooting THREE small S3 templates is ALSO hands down better than shooting one large S2 one.

So a mortar is just terrible all around.  Take a helstorm instead if you are shooting at hordes. If you are shooting at small blocks, a mortar is worse than a rock lobber for more points.

[Skyros]

Did you miss my post of numbers? I know mathshammer isn't everyones strong or favoured point, but if people are going to argue about the effectiveness of units then it needs to be taken into consideration. It is not going to deal "50%" more wounds. Even if they hit the same number of models, against T3 units the Rock Lobber wounds on 4+ (50% of models) and the Mortar 5+ (33%). 33 x 2 = 66% not 50%. So thats one point disproven.

That post of numbers, like this one, was wrong.  Wounding on 3 results out of six over 2 results out of six is a 50% increase in wounds dealt.

3/2 = 1.5.

I don't know how to make it simpler than that.

Multiplying something by 2 is a 100% increase, FYI.

[Nexus]

And if you ARE shooting at a horde shooting THREE small S3 templates is ALSO hands down better than shooting one large S2 one.

Again, that's D3 small templates, not 3. And they always scatter.

[Skyros]

And if you ARE shooting at a horde shooting THREE small S3 templates is ALSO hands down better than shooting one large S2 one.

Again, that's D3 small templates, not 3. And they always scatter.

It's indirect fire, that's not 'always scatter'.

If you roll  scatter, it scatters, just like the mortar.

If you roll a hit, it scatters, minus the crew BS. (Use an engineer). So a 2 and a 4 are a direct hit. Six scatters a tiny bit (but well still be entirely inside the horde).  so really you just gotta worry about 8 and 10 (well and misfire, obviously).

And you'll be shooting two of those templates, on average.

[Furball]

That post of numbers, like this one, was wrong.  Wounding on 3 results out of six over 2 results out of six is a 50% increase in wounds dealt.

3/2 = 1.5.

I don't know how to make it simpler than that.

Multiplying something by 2 is a 100% increase, FYI.

Yes, hit to hit S3 will cause more wounds than S2. However, you are not taking into account the difference in the number of hits caused. The mortar will hit more models therefore cause more wounds. You cannot ignore the strength of the mortar in the comparison. It would be like making the entire discussion about harming T6 models where S2 and S3 become the same.

Units of 35 men are rare, but units of 50 either deployed 10 wide and 5 deep (or a thinner file but more ranks) are common. If you got off the perfect large target shot on the perfect unit (at least 7 wide and 7 deep), 45 men will be hit. However, that is never going to happen hence why I've used 35 models for all my calculations.

[Skyros]

The mortar will hit more models only if there are more models available to be hit

In a 25 man T3 unit, a mortar hits all 25, a rock lobber hits 21.

The rock lobber wounds 11.5, the mortar wounds 8.333.

The rock lobber is cheaper and has outperformed the mortar on a full sized infantry regiment.

Shooting at really huge block of troops the helstorm will outperform the mortar, and is not significantly more expensive.

In fact with multiple templates its entirely possible the helstorm will outperform the mortar on small blocks too.

My point is the mortar is a poor and badly balanced piece of equipment, both against alternatives in other books, and alternatives in our own book.

[Furball]

The mortar will hit more models only if there are more models available to be hit

Yes, and I am pretty sure in this edition of warhammer large units of infantry are quite common.

Anyway, I might be taking mortars in my army even though they aren't our best choice. I play Stirland, so anything too fancy we just can't afford ;P

[Lord Roberts]

 !!!!!!EVERYONE NEEDS TO LOOK AT THE ARMY BOOK AGAIN!!!!!!

The new mortar does D3 wounds. Not D3 under the dot, just D3!!!!!!!

The way I read it the Strength under the dot is bigger but the D3 is area effect.
 
That is why it's still good. My second game trying out the new mortar I killed my opponents lvl 4 wizard after he failed his 'look out sir!'

  That's why its worth 100pts 

[Spiney]

True, but if I used that argument people would reply "Yes, but you can't rely on magic for the effectiveness of a unit."

Just looking at the numbers if the Mortar was left at S3. One direct hit on Halberdiers, 35 models hit, 17.5 wounded, 17.5 killed. 17.5 Halberdiers cost 105 points now. The Mortar would be way too powerful for 100 points at that strength. One direct hit would earn its points back. At the moment, it gets 70% of its points back with one direct hit to Halberdiers.

My concern is that selecting the best possible target for the mortar and assuming a direct hit and then saying that in a perfect scenario the mortar could kill 105pts of this which means it should cost more than 105 pts is stupid. My cannon can quite easily kill a 500pt greater daemon in a single shot, but that doesn't mean cannons should cost over 500pts.

Mortars will probably only get 2, possibly 3 turns of shooting at the most before units are in combat, so it's not at all certain, that even if you did have a perfect target to shoot at you would get a direct hit anyway.

If you compare mortars to either of the two other units in our book that provide a similar role it comes off worse in both cases, D3 str3 small templates has far greater potential for damage than a large str 2 template, and even the pigeoneer is a better choice for a str 4 small template.

Whoever thought a mortar shell should be str2 and a pigeon bomb str 4 needs a brain transplant from someone who has a vague awareness of the laws of physics. On the other hand maybe we are meant to assume that the Emperors armies have begun filling their mortar shells with their used washing up water rather than the sharp metal objects that could potentially hurt the enemy were they to explode in their midst.

[Skyros]

Well my pigeons wear little tiny spiky bismark helmets.

I'm sure those things hurt!

[pippin_nl]

Well my pigeons wear little tiny spiky bismark helmets.

I'm sure those things hurt!

I would love to see a picture of them!

[Nexus]

!!!!!!EVERYONE NEEDS TO LOOK AT THE ARMY BOOK AGAIN!!!!!!

The new mortar does D3 wounds. Not D3 under the dot, just D3!!!!!!!

The way I read it the Strength under the dot is bigger but the D3 is area effect.
 
That is why it's still good. My second game trying out the new mortar I killed my opponents lvl 4 wizard after he failed his 'look out sir!'

  That's why its worth 100pts 

Get outta here! 

[Spiney]

!!!!!!EVERYONE NEEDS TO LOOK AT THE ARMY BOOK AGAIN!!!!!!

The new mortar does D3 wounds. Not D3 under the dot, just D3!!!!!!!

The way I read it the Strength under the dot is bigger but the D3 is area effect.
 
That is why it's still good. My second game trying out the new mortar I killed my opponents lvl 4 wizard after he failed his 'look out sir!'

  That's why its worth 100pts 

Then you read it wrong, p. 49 immediately under the mortars profile

A mortar is fired Using the same rules as a stone thrower, but using the profile given above

Now go and read the rules for stone throwers
BRB p. 115

The stone throwers multiple wound special rule applies only to the high-strength hit caused against the model under the template's central hole

And let's be honest, even if it was D3 wounds caused on everyone under the template, how many multi-wound T2/3 units with no armour are there in this game? You're basically talking about an anti-swarm weapon, and how many times have you faced a swarm unit in an 8th edition battle?

[burdigala]

from france
 hey another stirlander

for stirland  and it s glorious ragt tag army. we prevail where the other rich province perish.

and for the mortar put a gobilns clown in it or the bretonian one at least it will make a fine diorama.

[Darknight]

Something which occured to me .... and it is likely not the case, but it is worth saying (perhaps) ....

The mortar's S of 2 is in one place in the army book, and does seem MASSIVELY out of character for the weapon. It has previously been S3 (which is the "average" S of an attack). S4 is reserved for powerful attacks - which a large, dispersed explosion might not be. S2 seems weedy, and also seems underpowered for the cost of the weapon.

Is it perhaps possible the S2 is a typo? A S6 attack under the hole but S2 elsewhere seems odd; but S3 elsewhere would be closer to reasonable.

[Freman Bloodglaive]

Being mentioned only once in the book trumps not being mentioned at all.

[Spiney]

Something which occured to me .... and it is likely not the case, but it is worth saying (perhaps) ....

The mortar's S of 2 is in one place in the army book, and does seem MASSIVELY out of character for the weapon. It has previously been S3 (which is the "average" S of an attack). S4 is reserved for powerful attacks - which a large, dispersed explosion might not be. S2 seems weedy, and also seems underpowered for the cost of the weapon.

Is it perhaps possible the S2 is a typo? A S6 attack under the hole but S2 elsewhere seems odd; but S3 elsewhere would be closer to reasonable.

Lol, I think this is just called grasping at straws, it's pretty clear that they thought "hmmmm, must make mortar worse..." and reduced the strength rather than thinking "hmmm, it's really stupid to make an enormous shell filled with sharp pieces of metal hit with the same force as the skaven slime catapult".

It is utterly ridiculous to give a mortar str2 it's basically reserved for things that shouldn't do much physical damage at all, like being hit by a glob of plague slime or bites from small smarm creatures. Maybe the Emperor made Marius Leitdorf head of Imperial Mortar policy and he decided that henceforth all Imperial mortars would fill their shells with baked beans instead of sharp bits of metal.