Topic: Are Handgunners over priced

[commandant]

It has been mentioned that handgunners are a standard don't take.   I would like to question this.   Therefore I put 4 demigriphons (which everybody seems to agree are a standard take) against the required number of handgunners.

4 Demigryphons - 232 + full command (30) = 262

25 Handgunners + full command (35 for the pistols are useful) = 260

First I note that the Demigryphons have 12 wounds and the handgunners have 25.   We assume that the handgunners deploy towards the back of their deployment zone and the demigryphons at the front of theirs.   That leaves 35 inches between them.   If the demigryphons go first then they advance 14 inches (21 inches between) and the handgunners fire.   I would also deploy the handgunners 12 wide because against demigryphons they are always steadfast

24 shots. Hitting on 5s = 8 hits.   Wounding on 3s = 5 wounds.   Demigryphons have a 3+ save so take 2 wounds.   

Demigryphons can try a long range (20 inch) charge if they want and if they do and make it skip to the last part.   If they do and fail just repeat part 1.   I am going to assume that the demigryphons march forth another 14 inches (7 inches between)

26 shots (the pistols can fire now.).   Hitting on 4s = 13 hits.   Wounding on 3s = 8 wounds demigryphons have a 3+ save and so take 3 wounds = 1 dead demigryphon.

Demigryphons charge.
Handgunners stand and shoot - 24 shoots hitting on 5s = 8 hits, wounding on 3s = 5 wounds demigryphons have a 3+save and so take 2 wounds = 1 dead demigryphon = panic test which they will fail 40% of the time.

Combat.

Demi gryphons 6 attacks = 4 hits = 4 wounds.
knights 2 attacks = 1 hit = 1 wound (most of the time)
Handgunners 12 attacks = 6 hits = 3 wounds = 1/2 wound

Combat res.   
Demigryphons 7
Handgunners 5

Handgunners are steadfast.

I decided to change the stats a little because of something Fandir said.   And I added a buff wagon to the handgunners which gave them +1 to hit.   Therefore at long range they make 12 hits and do 8 wounds = 3 unsaved wounds killing one demigryphon.   This is also true for their stand and shoot.   At short range they do 16 hits and 10 wounds.

The effectiveness of Handgunners against heavily armoured foes is something that should be examined but when combined with a buff wagon, which just needs to sit there then they are very strong and if the flaming hand is cast on them they are even stronger.

24 inch range, S4 shots with -2 to the armour save (which means against almost all infantry they wipe out armour) is very strong I think.   I would include the pistols because then you stand and shoot at short range for the handguns (because you have to wait for the pistols).

Fandir and me had a long discussion about High Elf spear elves once.   It is in the counts tavern or maybe the back table if you want to look it up, in which he claimed that high elf spear elves should be 8-9 points and I thought they should be 10-11.   The point he was making was that things should be priced with regard the the army they are in as well as with regard their own ability.   I did not agree at the time and I do not completely agree now.   However it is worth noting that at 8 points handgunners would be too cheap for what you get.   The 24 inch range is a long way (half the battle field) and the S4 is powerful and the AP means that against heavy infantry they are really strong.   Even against Heavy Calvary or monstrous Calvary they are strong.

the problem with handgunners is that they make your line static.   This is something that we as empire generals have to figure out how to deal with but I think that anybody that thinks they are over priced and therefore an auto don't take is not understanding their value.

[Spiney]

Errrr, I'm a little lost as to what this thread is trying to prove.

Demigryph Knights and handgunners do fundamentally different jobs in our list, comparing them point for point is possibly the most flawed way to analyse the effectiveness of either unit.

Try comparing handgunners to their equivalent points in Outriders or a HBVG and see how the results shake out

In any case, for the same cost I'd take crossbowmen over handgunners any day of the week, the difference in range is massive when you consider that crossbowmen will almost always be able to shoot on the first turn and handgunners never will

[commandant]

I'm looking at the pricing and the use of handgunners.   The question being asked is are they over priced and the answer I have come to is
A) No if you accept Fandir's theory for high elves

B) No if you don't because they are really strong in their own right.


What applied to handguns applies to crossbows.   The difference being that crossbows don't have AP but have longer range.

They are units I think were you need to take loads of them.   (say 20+ in a unit) but they are very powerful and 20 handgunners is on 200 points

[Finlay]

1)   You don’t get the + to hit, it only counts in close combat.

2) This assumes your opponent is the most obliging person in the world, and lines basically the best possible unit that HGs could shoot at. Instead of plonking, say, 50 halberdiers opposite the handgunners.

[commandant]

Missed the in combat.   Hmm not quite a good so good so.   Though the other points in their favour still remain

I never assume that my opponent is going to be that obliging because they never are, but then I am not that obliging to most of my opponents.

[Lord Solar Plexus]

Yes, they are.

[Spiney]

I'm looking at the pricing and the use of handgunners.   The question being asked is are they over priced and the answer I have come to is
A) No if you accept Fandir's theory for high elves

B) No if you don't because they are really strong in their own right.


What applied to handguns applies to crossbows.   The difference being that crossbows don't have AP but have longer range.

They are units I think were you need to take loads of them.   (say 20+ in a unit) but they are very powerful and 20 handgunners is on 200 points

And while I love the idea that handgunners are "strong in their own right", could you go so far as to qualify what you mean without completely inappropriate comparisons to other Empire units that do a fundamentally different job in the army list.

Even so, if we are going to consider your Demi gryph comparison above, why is the demigryph player playing like a complete spanner? Why did he not stop 24.5" away from the handgunners on the first turn (out of range), then march 12" on the second (still at long range) then attempt a fairly safe 13" charge (long range and stand and shoot), taking one round of shooting at -1 to hit and the stand and shoot at -2 to hit?

Now even if we assume a wide formation of 13 across so they can all shoot 25 shots only gives you 8 hits at long range, which is 5 wounds on T3 and approx 1.8 wounds after a 3+ armour. The Hurricanum does NOT give you +1 to hit from ranged weapons.

The stand and shoot reaction will be even worse as long range and S&S mean your Hgs will only Hit on 6s, so from 25 shots, approx 4 hits, 2.8 wounds, say one wound unsaved. With slightly above average rolls you might kill a single Demi gryph before they were wrecking your face in combat. Now if you assume the demigryphs also had a hurricanum things are looking very grim for the handgunners.

I'm also a little concerned about how your handgunners are getting 5 points of combat resolution. In order to fire all their shots they must be in a formation with two ranks and a frontage of 13, let's assume that they do convert a wound on a demigryph, with their rank and standard that gives them a CR total of 3. They also won't be steadfast in the second turn of combat because the gryphs will have eaten their back rank by then.

I also couldn't help notice that while you highlight the fact that the Demi-gryphs have a 40% chance of failing their Ld8 panic check, you also assume that the handgunners will automatically pass their Ld7 steadfast break test, biased much?

Why do you think 8pt handgunners would be too cheap? They used to be 8pts and Ive never met anyone who thought they were too powerful, I used to bring a unit of 20 crossbows (also formerly 8pts) and they never did anything for me other than drop a few models off the back of a unit here and there. It wasn't like handgunners were the "OMG that's so broken" unit of last edition, it's not like everyone took them in multiple or massive units and wiped out entire armies from a distance. Now they're just as bad as they used t be, but they cost more.

Even regarding Fandirs theory handgunners are still terrible compared to either the HBVG or outriders which do the same job in our list, and granted they are core rather than special or rare, but I've long believed that while core units should be less powerful than those in the special/rare section, they shouldn't be worse value for points.

[Count Wolfenstein]

This is a bad comparison. How are you getting all 25 shots while firing in 2 ranks, then getting steadfast next turn when the demographic charge you? At best you'll do a wound or two then tie up the groups for one turn with multiple ranks. If you spread out to get all your shots you're leaving a huge foot print on the battlefield and you'll get crushed when the demigryphs charge. BS oriented shooting was always a bit ineffective but know its also overpriced to boot. Which is a shame cause I love the models and have 20 hand gunners. At best they shodbe used as a detachment, which I'm still experimenting with.

[Cursain]

It has been mentioned that handgunners are a standard don't take.   I would like to question this.   Therefore I put 4 demigriphons (which everybody seems to agree are a standard take) against the required number of handgunners.

4 Demigryphons - 232 + full command (30) = 262

25 Handgunners + full command (35 for the pistols are useful) = 260

First I note that the Demigryphons have 12 wounds and the handgunners have 25.   We assume that the handgunners deploy towards the back of their deployment zone and the demigryphons at the front of theirs.   That leaves 35 inches between them.   If the demigryphons go first then they advance 14 inches (21 inches between) and the handgunners fire.   I would also deploy the handgunners 12 wide because against demigryphons they are always steadfast

24 shots. Hitting on 5s = 8 hits.   Wounding on 3s = 5 wounds.   Demigryphons have a 3+ save so take 2 wounds.   

Demigryphons can try a long range (20 inch) charge if they want and if they do and make it skip to the last part.   If they do and fail just repeat part 1.   I am going to assume that the demigryphons march forth another 14 inches (7 inches between)

26 shots (the pistols can fire now.).   Hitting on 4s = 13 hits.   Wounding on 3s = 8 wounds demigryphons have a 3+ save and so take 3 wounds = 1 dead demigryphon.

Demigryphons charge.
Handgunners stand and shoot - 24 shoots hitting on 5s = 8 hits, wounding on 3s = 5 wounds demigryphons have a 3+save and so take 2 wounds = 1 dead demigryphon = panic test which they will fail 40% of the time.

Combat.

Demi gryphons 6 attacks = 4 hits = 4 wounds.
knights 2 attacks = 1 hit = 1 wound (most of the time)
Handgunners 12 attacks = 6 hits = 3 wounds = 1/2 wound

Combat res.   
Demigryphons 7
Handgunners 5

Handgunners are steadfast.

I decided to change the stats a little because of something Fandir said.   And I added a buff wagon to the handgunners which gave them +1 to hit.   Therefore at long range they make 12 hits and do 8 wounds = 3 unsaved wounds killing one demigryphon.   This is also true for their stand and shoot.   At short range they do 16 hits and 10 wounds.

The effectiveness of Handgunners against heavily armoured foes is something that should be examined but when combined with a buff wagon, which just needs to sit there then they are very strong and if the flaming hand is cast on them they are even stronger.

24 inch range, S4 shots with -2 to the armour save (which means against almost all infantry they wipe out armour) is very strong I think.   I would include the pistols because then you stand and shoot at short range for the handguns (because you have to wait for the pistols).

Fandir and me had a long discussion about High Elf spear elves once.   It is in the counts tavern or maybe the back table if you want to look it up, in which he claimed that high elf spear elves should be 8-9 points and I thought they should be 10-11.   The point he was making was that things should be priced with regard the the army they are in as well as with regard their own ability.   I did not agree at the time and I do not completely agree now.   However it is worth noting that at 8 points handgunners would be too cheap for what you get.   The 24 inch range is a long way (half the battle field) and the S4 is powerful and the AP means that against heavy infantry they are really strong.   Even against Heavy Calvary or monstrous Calvary they are strong.

the problem with handgunners is that they make your line static.   This is something that we as empire generals have to figure out how to deal with but I think that anybody that thinks they are over priced and therefore an auto don't take is not understanding their value.

Why would any smart general controlling the Demi Gryphs move more than 10.75" on the first turn?  Moving 10.75 inches would take away the handgunners first turn of firing, then the second turn I would move 14 inches, take a round of firing, THEN charge on turn three, ripping the handgunners to shreds.

[S.O.F]

First I note that the Demigryphons have 12 wounds and the handgunners have 25.   We assume that the handgunners deploy towards the back of their deployment zone and the demigryphons at the front of theirs.   That leaves 35 inches between them.   If the demigryphons go first then they advance 14 inches (21 inches between) and the handgunners fire.   I would also deploy the handgunners 12 wide because against demigryphons they are always steadfast

First if this is in a vacuum why would the demi gryphs not waste a turn to get at say 24.5" from the handgunners and then march in? Under those conditions you only get the 2 shots at them with at average plus is only going to knock down the gryphs to 8 wounds on three minis.

The Demi Gryph, provided they pass any panic check, will take out 5 Handgunners before the handgunners may strike back Knights and Handgunners attack at the same time and since the demi gryphs would try and align as best they could face 14 S3 and 2 S4 attacks back. Now provided the Handgunners passed their fear test, that is a little less than one wound returned while the Knights should knock out another 2, lastly stomps should claim two more handgunners easy. With the 9 death the Handgunners are no longer steadfast and should most likely break.

Handgunners are over priced because BS shooting has too many negative modifiers. If this encounter did not happen in a vacuum it would most often go even worse for the gunners.

[Cursain]

This is a bad comparison. How are you getting all 25 shots while firing in 2 ranks, then getting steadfast next turn when the demographic charge you? At best you'll do a wound or two then tie up the groups for one turn with multiple ranks. If you spread out to get all your shots you're leaving a huge foot print on the battlefield and you'll get crushed when the demigryphs charge. BS oriented shooting was always a bit ineffective but know its also overpriced to boot. Which is a shame cause I love the models and have 20 hand gunners. At best they shodbe used as a detachment, which I'm still experimenting with.

Please read page 39, firing in two ranks.

[Skyros]

We assume that the handgunners deploy towards the back of their deployment zone and the demigryphons at the front of theirs.

Handgunners deployed at the back of their deployment zone = useless all game.

I wouldn't bother having my DGK's even go after them, I'd have them go after something that actually is a threat.

So what would really happen is your handgunners would get one turn of firing at my DGs, at long range, before they charged something else and pulped it.

So then we would have spent equal points, but I'd have gotten tons and tons of wounds out of mine and you'd have gotten two wounds out of yours :p You wouldn't have even removed one model before my DGK's were in someones facing pounding them to bits. And that is why BS based shooting is bad, particularly overpriced move-or-fire empire BS shooting.

I am going to assume that the demigryphons march forth another 14 inches (7 inches between)

Why on earth would they go to 7" when they could stay at 12, easily make the charge next turn, but keep you at long range fire for one more turn? They should wind up taking one turn of long range fire, then one S&S reaction (at short range, thanks to the pistols).

 Also you neglected the stomp attacks for the DGK.

[Spiney]

Why would any smart general controlling the Demi Gryphs move more than 10.75" on the first turn?  Moving 10.75 inches would take away the handgunners first turn of firing, then the second turn I would move 14 inches, take a round of firing, THEN charge on turn three, ripping the handgunners to shreds.

Because it proves that even the worst costed unit in the game can be worth fielding if the guy you are playing against has no tactical ability at all, which unfortunately is all that the above Mathhammer really proves.

And in fact it's better to stop 24.5" away (out of range), then march 12" (remain at long range) on the following turn, then charge from 13" away taking the S&S reaction at long range, 13" charge is a pretty safe bet from a swift striding M7/8 unit (depending whether they have the steel standard or not).

Regarding the firing in two ranks thing, Count Wolfenstein is right, the handgunners would have to deploy in two ranks of 13 to be able to fire all their shots at the demigryphs and wouldn't keep steadfast for more than 1 turn in that formation, on the second turn they would almost certainly break with a modifier of approx -5 to their Break test. It's unlikely that the handgunners would kill more than a single Demi-gryph in total before getting wiped out, and Demi-gryphs are probably point for point their ideal target, few models worth that many points are T3.

[Skyros]

That is indeed the best tactic Spiney.

In this SPECIFIC case, the HG would get a stand and shoot at short range though because of the pistols.

Still...that's two shooting attacks total. and that's IF the DGK even bother to charge you. I wouldn't. A big unit of handgunners sitting in the back of the deployment zone like that is wasted points. I'd charge something else instead and let them sit there with no good targets.

[Minsc]

This thread is pointless.
Fight's never happen in a vacuum, and T3 heavy cav is the best target for handgunners. Riddicously bad comparison.

What's next, someone will claim that gnoblars are overpowered because 100 of them can beat a Necrosphinx? 

[Lord Solar Plexus]

Now handgunners are ruined forever!

[Minsc]

No LSP: Demigryphons are ruined forever.

It's proven now that Handgunners are better than DGK's.
And since Handgunners are a bad unit, that must mean that DGK's are a very bad unit! 

[Count Wolfenstein]

Please read page 39, firing in two ranks.

What I'm saying is that to beat the demigryphs with ranks means you cant put your 25 guys in two ranks and get all your shots. You have to go 5x5 or maybe 6x4 with an extra, then your only getting 10 or 12 shots.

Also I wouldn't say this thread is pointless. Thought experiments can give you fresh perspectives into the game. This thread is just a little redundant cause yeah, handgunnets are at best ineffective and overpriced.

[commandant]

when did stand and shoot go to -2

[Skyros]

-1 long range, -1 s&s.

If you have a pistol, the unit waits until the pistols range to shoot, which is long range for the pistol and short range for everything else.

[Spiney]

-1 long range, -1 s&s.

If you have a pistol, the unit waits until the pistols range to shoot, which is long range for the pistol and short range for everything else.

Yes, I kind of ignored the pistol on the basis that paying more points for one fewer shot most of the time is silly, but then I guess you tailored this scenario to show the handgunners in their best possible light in this situation.

Its worth mentioning that in your original example the handgunners cannot make a S&S reaction because the Demi-gryphs begin their charge 7" away, which is within their basic movement distance and therefore too close to make a S&S reaction.

[Finlay]

This thread is revisionist epic fail.

Handgunners were shite at 8 points (although mainly because the mortar did the same job better)

And they are even shiter at 9 points.

[Noght]

You could use them as Unit Fillers....

Noght

[Countwarlord]

Handgunners are totally not worth it anymore crossbowmen with enchanted blades are better and outriders are 1000% better than both of those options.

[Algovil]

I thought that Stand and Shoot always was played using short range, only -1 for the Action. Now I read BRB that the shooting is resolved as normal, which should mean additional -1 if starting at long range. Must have mixed this up with if the unit starts outside maxrange, which is treated as the charging unit is just within range.

On Topic: Handgunners and Crossbowmen were OK at 8pts, often used with flaming banner, without that option, higher cost and no real new synergies in the new book, they are too expensive now. Not because they are necessarily bad, for example a stubborn detachment can be used for ranged combat and then fight in close combat as well, expensive though. The reason they are overcosted is IMO, like many have written, that we have other units filling the same role, Outriders were on even terms with handgunners last book, same amount of shots/cost, less wounds, more mobility. Now they are just overall better in this comparison, even though they did not change. The Helblaster is a monster, and the best choice for pure firepower.

I am not saying they are useless, just suboptimal, but there can only be ONE optimal list, and I want variation + a unit of 20 Handgunners painted looks great.