Topic: HBVG vs HBVG+Engineer

[Spiney]

Ok, so the question I want an answer to is this; is it worth bringing an engineer to babysit my helblaster or not?

I don't really know where to start mathhammering the number of shots/hits a helblaster generates with or without the engineers reroll because the misfire results throw up all kinds of weird alterations to the odds, but in most situations the helblaster will be firing at long range, so hitting 33% of the time (I.e 2 in every 6 shots)

Now with the engineer at the helm the HBVG's BS goes up to 4, which means at long range our odds of hitting go up to 50% or 3 in every 6 shots.

Now my mathematical brain says that's an increase of 50% on average, and what does the engineer cost... Around half the cost of the HBVG. So before we even consider the effect of the reroll the engineer appears to increase the HBVG's effectiveness sufficiently to warrant his points cost.

Other comments?

[Skyros]

If the HBVG were my only war machine, I would probably not bring an engineer.

However if you have several in your list, I would bring an engineer: he can be stationed to boost the performance of whichever war machine is most important for this match up (rocket battery vs skaven, HBVG vs chaos, mortar vs.. hahahah jk).

[Algovil]

I recommend the recent thread here in this forum regarding the Helblaster, thoroughly calculations were made, and supported the use of an engineer.

[Spiney]

Can you link me to that thread Algovil?

I think coupling a HBVG with a cannon for an engineer is also a very good idea, the cannon can fire in the opening turns with improved reliability at critical targets (enemy monsters/warmachines/chariots) while the HBVG is out of range, then when the enemy gets close you can switch the engineer to the HBVG and shred them.

[Lord Solar Plexus]

Here we go...http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=39154&p=758728#p758728

[DonJulio]

I like this one because of the nice graphs:

http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=42090.0

[Spiney]

Here we go...http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=39154&p=758728#p758728

It appears from that analysis that the engineer more than doubles the effectiveness of the helblaster for a little over half the cost.

Sounds like a bargain to me

[DonJulio]

Yep, I'll play it with an engineer. Also, he may  serve another machine like a Cannon  whenever the enemy is out of range  for the HBVG.

[eriktheguy]

Place the engineer close to a cannon/mortar and to the Helblaster.  He should be within about 8'' of one and 3'' of the other. He can still support one machine even if he marches, so this lets him support both machines on a turn to turn basis. If there is a good target for the Helblaster, move the engineer next to the Helblaster, if there isn't move him next to the cannon/mortar.

I Prefer not to fire the Helblaster without the engineer, the risk of a misfire outweighs the little bit of damage it is likely to do if
A) it doesn't have engineer support
B) you decided it didn't have a good target this turn which is why you decided to put the engineer on the mortar/cannon

Putting an engineer on the Helblaster reduces the chance of a serious misfire to much lower than that of our other war machines (around 1% compared to 3%). Without the engineer, the chance of a serious misfire is about 7%.

Science Rules.

[fbjorn]

Has anyone considered putting the engineer on a horse? The the war machines can be further away from each other (19''), and it adds a save throw (with the light armour for 1p he the gets 5+). Or is it a waste.

 
fbjorn

[Spiney]

Barded warhorse for 4+, improve further by use of cheap magic items, either enchanted or charmed shield if you fear cannons (4+ Stand back sir isn't exactly foolproof) for example.

On the other hand I doubt I'll bother, it's not like I'm bothered enough to covert a mounted engineer

[Syn Ace]

I'd popped him onto a barded warhorse just recently (just prior to 8th Empire). He didn't take any AS that game, though at one point I thought I'd have to move him so the 7" Move would have come in handy.

[Dosiere]

I always put mine on a Mechanical Steed...

[Souppilgrim]

I always put mine on a Mechanical Steed...

for looks?

[Spiney]

I always put mine on a Mechanical Steed...

for looks?

Probably, the robo horse is the second worst way to spend points in the entire army list, after the ring of volans

[Warlord]

I was recently suggested  by someone to take an enigneer with fireballl ring plus pigeon bombs to become quite offensive for under 130pts (magic wagon). Not a bad idea...

[Minsc]

I have my engineer in a unit of archers, and place him within 3" from the warmachine. That's protection enough.

And I would never play with a HBVG without a engineer. 50% of getting only 50% of the shots and hitting on 5+ at long range?

You average 5 hits on long range without a engineer 50% of the time, and 2-3 hits 50% of the time. Not really impressive for 120 pts.
With a engineer you average 7-8 hits on long range 99% of the time, plus you can gamble and reroll any 2's on the artillerydice if you don't roll any missfire for some extra shots.

[olderplayer]

These are the probabilities with and without an engineer with the HBVG:

Without an engineer, these are the odds:
One misfire: shots on remaining two rolls cut in half 34.65%
Two misfires; roll on the black powder misfire table 6.98%
Three misfires: 30 shots then blows up 0.47%
(one might think that the odds a a misfire are 50% with three art dice but the combinations of double and triple misfires result in only a 42.2% probability of one or more misfires each turn)
Shots:
Average 12.65; Median 12.00
Minimum 0.000000 Maximum 30.000000
01-%ile 0.000000 99-%ile 28.000000
05-%ile 0.000000 95-%ile 26.000000
10-%ile 3.000000 90-%ile 22.000000
25-%ile 6.000000 75-%ile 20.000000
Median 12.000000

Long Range Hits: Avg. 4.21; Median 4.0
Minimum 0.000000 Maximum 21.000000
01-%ile 0.000000 99-%ile 12.000000
05-%ile 0.000000 95-%ile 10.000000
10-%ile 0.000000 90-%ile 8.000000
25-%ile 2.000000 75-%ile 6.000000
Median 4.000000

Short Range Hits: Avg. 6.32 Median 6.0
Minimum 0.000000 Maximum 24.000000
01-%ile 0.000000 99-%ile 16.000000
05-%ile 0.000000 95-%ile 14.000000
10-%ile 1.000000 90-%ile 12.000000
25-%ile 3.000000 75-%ile 9.000000
Median 6.000000

By dedicating an engineer to the HBVG, one significantly changes the odds:
One misfire: shots on remaining two rolls cut in half 11.60%
Two misfires; roll on the black powder misfire table 1.55%
Three misfires: 30 shots then blows up 0.07%
Shots:
Average 16.33; Median 16.0
Minimum 0.000000 Maximum 30.000000
01-%ile 0.000000 99-%ile 28.000000
05-%ile 5.000000 95-%ile 26.000000
10-%ile 7.000000 90-%ile 24.000000
25-%ile 12.000000 75-%ile 20.000000
Median 16.000000

Long Range Hits: Avg. 8.17; Median 8.0
Minimum 0.000000 Maximum 24.000000
01-%ile 0.000000 99-%ile 17.000000
05-%ile 2.000000 95-%ile 14.000000
10-%ile 3.000000 90-%ile 13.000000
25-%ile 6.000000 75-%ile 11.000000
Median 8.000000

Short Range Hits: Avg. 10.88 Median 11.0
Minimum 0.000000 Maximum 27.000000
01-%ile 0.000000 99-%ile 21.000000
05-%ile 3.000000 95-%ile 18.000000
10-%ile 4.000000 90-%ile 17.000000
25-%ile 8.000000 75-%ile 14.000000
Median 11.000000

The optimal targets are elite units, chariots and monsters even with high armour saves. Absent a ward save, you can kill 2 to 3 chaos knights per turn at long range and 3 to 4 at short range. Against heavy infantry armies with elite units having T4, this fire can be devastating. You should kill about 5 wounds on average at long range and 7 wounds at short range with an engineer. That is 1 and 2/3's ironguts/ogres/maneaters long range and 2 and 1/3 ironguts/ogres/maneaters short range. In the first round you may end up more than 24 inches from a target or shooting at scouts or vanguard units, so it may make sense to have the engineer devoted to a great cannon in that instance.