Topic: Cannonofdoom's Measured Impressions of the New Book

[Cannonofdoom]

Overall I don't dislike the new Empire Book, but I'm not excited about it.

First of all, the Detachment rules have been completely gutted, making them almost useless. The worst thing, is that detachments can no longer make a flank charge with only sight to the enemy's flank, which means without extremely skilled placement, and a dense opponent, your counter charges will almost always be frontal charges, and thus add nothing to the combat.

I understand why they nerfed the Warrior Priests, but I think they made them a little better overall, except Soulfire, which is just okay.

I don't like the Witchhunter. It's an okay addition for fluff, but I'll never use one. The sniper rule is useless, because you can only give him pistols, and he can't be mounted on anything, so trying to get him into position to shoot his chosen target will be difficult, and with his BS4 you'll very rarely hit. An interesting character that could have had much better rules, though I think a prime candidate to carry the speculum.

The engineer is better. I will still probably field him naked with a Helblaster.

I like the new Steam Tank, Helblaster, and Rocket Battery rules. I think the Mortar didn't need to lose strength, but I don't play with six of them. I imagine I would feel they needed to be S2 if I knew someone who fielded six of them all of the time.

Robo Horse is even more useless, which is appropriate.

I am opposed to Demigryph Knights on principle. The models are gorgeous, and the rules are good, but I like my Empire with few monsters. That said, I like the changes to the Griffon.

I don't understand why they made Crossbowmen and Handgunners more expensive, or why they made Swordsmen have a lower Initiative. I'm okay with Halberdiers being 6 points, but not Free Company. I approve of the changes to Archers and Huntsmen, and will probably use them more now.

Knights are still good. I will field Reiksguard because I play Altdorf.

Flagellants are not worth 12 points.

The new chariot machines are interesting, and I like them, but I think it would have been easy to make the kit also for a Warwagon. I certainly like them more than if we had gotten a new big monster.

Outriders losing the Longrifle is stupid. They come in the kit!

I like the changes to most of the magic items, except the Speculum, which now HAS to be used in a challenge for no apparent reason. The Griffon Banner got more expensive? Again? Why?

I think the Armor of Meteoric Iron is totally worth 50 points. I love the new Steel Standard. Mace of Helstrum on a basic WP is cool. White Cloak is great, and the Ring of Volans got better, though I still don't care for one use items.

[Freman Bloodglaive]

Please, just play a few games.

Yes, Empire are different, but in the 8th meta they're still good, they're just not as "out-horde skaven" "out-magic high elves" "out-gun dwarves" as they were with the 7th edition book in a 8th edition world.

[Syn Ace]

Outriders losing the Longrifle is stupid. They come in the kit!

I thought so too at first, then I remembered that I had to raid my handgunner unit to make mine. The outrider kit only came with the blunderbuss nade launcher.

[Perambulator]

I put my first list together last weekend and I was surprised at how quickly I ran out of points. I have to work through the list again to get back in the groove of Empire. I played three games and got slaughtered by Ogres, held my own against Tomb Kings until a series of bad dice rolls, and did pretty well against Chaos Warriors. I will say that my detachments actually contributed to two out of three games there. I wouldn't discount them especially with the Hold the Line! and the properties of the banner carrying over from the parent. Stubborn terror causing swordsmen and greatswords with Hold the line! are awesome!!!

[Finlay]

Please, just play a few games.

Yes, Empire are different, but in the 8th meta they're still good, they're just not as "out-horde skaven" "out-magic high elves" "out-gun dwarves" as they were with the 7th edition book in a 8th edition world.

How tyhe feck could you outhorde 2 point, ld10, steadfast skaven

[Freman Bloodglaive]

By dropping strength 3 mortar templates on them?

[Noght]

Yes, Empire are different, but in the 8th meta they're still good, they're just not as "out-horde skaven" "out-magic high elves" "out-gun dwarves" as they were with the 7th edition book in a 8th edition world.

That's funny cuz you couldn't do any of those things with the old book.  House Rules or ETCrap?

Noght

[Skyros]

Yeah, empire could never outhorde skaven. And skaven have plenty of ways to deal with blocks of troops as well, let's not forget. :p

[Route1]

Whatever your impression is of the new book, we'll have to live with it. It is our new book and we must re-think how we will make our lists, which I think is EXCITING. I was getting bored with my 4 types of lists that I always used, and this new book gives me an opportunity to sit down and come up with new ones.

That being said, I don't think the Empire book was "nerfed" that much at all. The only thing worth mentioning that got the nerf stick is militia.

[Noght]

That being said, I don't think the Empire book was "nerfed" that much at all. The only thing worth mentioning that got the nerf stick is militia.

You need to read a bit close methinks 

Noght

[Minsc]

That being said, I don't think the Empire book was "nerfed" that much at all. The only thing worth mentioning that got the nerf stick is militia

I'm sorry, but your rose-tinted goggles are so pink it's hurting my eyes.
This isn't a whine-post, I like our new armybook, but we did get quite nerfed in many areas:

- Most of our infantry got a pointincrease, which leads to smaller armies.
- Our shooting either got nerfed or more expensive, which leads to a less efficient shooting-phase. (Helblaster/Pidgeon bombs being the exception.)
- Our magicdefense got severely nerfed. Rod of Power and free dispell-dice from WP/AL's are all gone.

We got better in some areas (buffs, cavalry, new and good units), but overall Empire is nerfed compared to the previous Armybook. On the other hand, we now got more options, and the army itself is (imo) funnier - so it's a change I'm fine with.

[Route1]

I don't really see those things as major issues, to be honest.

Lets face it, the great cannon is properly priced now. Mortar is still worth taking against some armies.

Like you said, we have more options now, which acts as a counterbalance against the smaller point increases. (I'm still taking flaggies!)

[Cannonofdoom]

Please, just play a few games.

Why do you think this post came so long after the book came out? I don't remember ever being able to outhorde skaven, and definitely couldn't ever outmagic High Elves. I don't know what you mean. 

I don't really see those things as major issues, to be honest.

Lets face it, the great cannon is properly priced now. Mortar is still worth taking against some armies.

Like you said, we have more options now, which acts as a counterbalance against the smaller point increases. (I'm still taking flaggies!)

My post is not a whine or complaint. I am pointing out what has changed and whether or not I like it. I don't feel the Empire army book needed to change as much as it did. Why did they gut the detachment rules? Mortar is obviously still worth taking, but did they need to raise the price AND lower the strength? Same for rocket battery. Did they need to reduce the template size AND reduce the strength? It seems like they just nerfed a lot of things that people were complaining about at tournaments, rather than actually trying to rebalance them.

Please explain why swordsmen lost a point of initiative. Why did spearmen get more expensive? Why did handgunners and crossbows get more expensive?

Some of the changes just make no sense.

Outriders losing the Longrifle is stupid. They come in the kit!

I thought so too at first, then I remembered that I had to raid my handgunner unit to make mine. The outrider kit only came with the blunderbuss nade launcher.

Good point! I retract my previous statement. 

[Lord Solar Plexus]

First of all, the Detachment rules have been completely gutted, making them almost useless. The worst thing, is that detachments can no longer make a flank charge with only sight to the enemy's flank, which means without extremely skilled placement, and a dense opponent, your counter charges will almost always be frontal charges, and thus add nothing to the combat.

What do you field? Busses to fight enemy hordes is about the only situation in which you could get a frontal charge off. With a detachment 3" back and to the side, you will always see the opponent, be in the flank and only be some 7-8" away.

By dropping strength 3 mortar templates on them?

Yeah, as if that ever had any effect...

[Fandir Nightshade]

Damn centrists. 

[The Peacemaker]

You can still run your old lists with just a bit of tweaking.
You just have to swap your level 4 life wizzard(I never took these) with a level 4 shadow wizzard and BAM your mortors hit just as hard.

Then you also have to drop the champs and musicians from your infantry blocks to scrape up some points.


But seriously, until you fill up the 2 hellblasters + engineers in your list, nothing else is worth taking.

[RockabillGR]

This  isn't a whine-post,I like our new armybook, but we did get quite nerfed in many areas:

- Most of our infantry got a pointincrease, which leads to smaller armies.
- Our shooting either got nerfed or more expensive, which leads to a less efficient shooting-phase. (Helblaster/Pidgeon bombs being the exception.)
- Our magicdefense got severely nerfed. Rod of Power and free dispell-dice from WP/AL's are all gone.

We got better in some areas (buffs, cavalry, new and good units), but overall Empire is nerfed compared to the previous Armybook. On the other hand, we now got more options, and the army itself is (imo) funnier - so it's a change I'm fine with.

but it is!!

anyway people stop whining, seriously its getting tiresome. if you dont like it dont take it, its that simple.

and just a question. since all new units/changes have been discussed over and over coutless times so far, why do people keep putting up threads about them asking the same pointless things again and again? i dont get it.

[ZeroTwentythree]

I more or less agree with CoD's original post. In fact, I feel a bit like he's reading my mind.

I feel like there were a lot of good decisions made... but then there are a bunch of "solutions" to problems that didn't exist in the first place.

In the end it's an OK book, and its cool to have something new at all. Even cooler to have some new models & troop types. But I'm not jumping up and down with joy either.

Yes, Empire are different, but in the 8th meta they're still good, they're just not as "out-horde skaven" "out-magic high elves" "out-gun dwarves" as they were with the 7th edition book in a 8th edition world.

That's funny cuz you couldn't do any of those things with the old book.  House Rules or ETCrap?

That was also my first thought on reading those comments as well. I always thought that the strength of our army was that we could balance a lot of those things and combine them into one list, without being the best at any one of them. Empire has usually been the best at being average at everything -- which is its own type of strength.

That said, I do think we're still in a similar position. We just have to go about it differently. And as someone said, that means new types of lists...

But that also means replacing a lot of your old models. If you want to be cynical about it -- which anyone with hordes of swordsmen supported by handgunners & crossbow might be -- now that everyone's painting up demi-griffins, knights and various chariot-church-looking-things, and trading in their mortars for volley guns. 

anyway people stop whining, seriously its getting tiresome. if you dont like it dont take it, its that simple.

and just a question. since all new units/changes have been discussed over and over coutless times so far, why do people keep putting up threads about them asking the same pointless things again and again? i dont get it.

Yes! Everyone stop discussing the new Empire book on an Empire forum! Stop wasting our time with discussing the pros & cons of the new book -- it has no place here! 

[RockabillGR]

zerotwentythree you may like seeing 2-3 different threads for captasus/beasts lvl 4/ nuln-middenland armies over and over. i dont.
i have lost count of how many people have started threads exactly like this and say the same thing. this is not discussion. this is repetion.

[Syn Ace]

I think the swordsmen lost their initiative to bring them into line with the rest of the human race. Their skill with the blade is shown with their WS4. Don't get me wrong, I wasn't complaining when they had I4, but it never made sense to me. Some say they got a higher Initiative because of their skill with a blade, but we don't have any other weapons that affect Initiative (outside of great weapons) -- if you want weapons affecting Initiative, let's start with spears that should hit before swords just based on a longer reach and halberds if the spear point were used, etc. Swordsmen are highly trained -- that is reflected in their WS.

[ZeroTwentythree]

Spend a year or so reading Warseer. It will build an extreme tolerance for repetition. 

If CoD had written this a year from now, I'd agree. But the book is fresh off the press, and he presented a pretty balanced & moderate review*, along with specific evaluations

*If it was another, "Oh god, we're doomed! The book is so nerfed!" thread or a "The inquisition will smite you with their holy wrath if you even think about saying anything other than praising the new book as the best thing ever written" thread, I'd probably also be less tolerant.

[warhammerlord_soth]

zerotwentythree you may like seeing 2-3 different threads for captasus/beasts lvl 4/ nuln-middenland armies over and over. i dont.
i have lost count of how many people have started threads exactly like this and say the same thing. this is not discussion. this is repetion.

Point noted.


People who whine about certain units should not field them.


The again, people who whine about certain threads should not read them.


But all of the above should use proper spelling, and that includes capitalising I if you mean yourself.

[Freman Bloodglaive]

I'm sorry, my comments were rhetorical. Of course we couldn't do those things, the point is we aren't meant to.

We're average, depressingly average. We don't try to out-horde Skaven, we don't try to out-magic High Elves, and arguably we don't try to out-shoot Dwarfs.

We do outnumber Elves and Dwarfs, so we use our numbers against them. We have solid magic, so we use that against Dwarfs and Skaven. We have fair shooting, so we use that against Elves and Skaven (and Dwarfs). We have maneuver advantage over Dwarfs so we use that.

[warhammerlord_soth]

We do outnumber Elves and Dwarfs, so we use our numbers against them. We have solid magic, so we use that against Dwarfs and Skaven. We have fair shooting, so we use that against Elves and Skaven (and Dwarfs). We have maneuver advantage over Dwarfs so we use that.

Hear, hear !

[Lord Solar Plexus]

You can still run your old lists with just a bit of tweaking.
You just have to swap your level 4 life wizzard(I never took these) with a level 4 shadow wizzard and BAM your mortors hit just as hard.

Then you also have to drop the champs and musicians from your infantry blocks to scrape up some points.

My old list costs 264 points more, and that is despite the presence of a STank and a unit of Knights. The Shadow wiz being mandatory for the mortar to work IMO only demonstrates the weaknesses of this concept. Apart from not getting the spell, failing to cast and it being dispelled, the rest of the list will miss the Light buffs. And not being able to swift reform anymore is hardly a suggestion that merits more than a casual look.

Even taking out the two mortars will not suffice to bring it to under 2,500 points, and even then it would be extremely weaksauce. So at the end of the day, no, you cannot realistically play an old list and expect it to do well. We'll all have to look forward, try out new stuff and see what works. And we have to keep our fingers crossed that GW sticks to its philosophy when the other books are due.