Topic: Cannonofdoom's Measured Impressions of the New Book

[Cannonofdoom]

First of all, the Detachment rules have been completely gutted, making them almost useless. The worst thing, is that detachments can no longer make a flank charge with only sight to the enemy's flank, which means without extremely skilled placement, and a dense opponent, your counter charges will almost always be frontal charges, and thus add nothing to the combat.

What do you field? Busses to fight enemy hordes is about the only situation in which you could get a frontal charge off. With a detachment 3" back and to the side, you will always see the opponent, be in the flank and only be some 7-8" away.

If your detachment is within 3" it will be very difficult to have half of your frontage be in the flank arc of the enemy unit, especially if you are keeping them back from the main line so they aren't charged instead of your main block. You don't get to just charge the flank if you can see it like you used to, sadly. Sure, it's still entirely possible, it's just much more difficult, and probably impossible against a skilled opponent. I can see detachments being useful with the "Hold The Line" rule, but they are not the detachments of old.

I'm still going to field 2 blocks of 30 swordsmen and another block of 30 spearmen and probably a block of 30 greatswords and 10-15 Reiksguard (hail the fluff of Altdorf). I'm still going to play with my 20 painstakingly painted handgunners, even though I feel they don't need to be 9 points. I'll still field one cannon, and two mortars, though I'll likely now field a pair of Helblasters too. I was just presenting an opinion. And I encourage discussion of my opinions, which is why I made a thread to share them.

I'm sorry, my comments were rhetorical. Of course we couldn't do those things, the point is we aren't meant to.

We're average, depressingly average. We don't try to out-horde Skaven, we don't try to out-magic High Elves, and arguably we don't try to out-shoot Dwarfs.

We do outnumber Elves and Dwarfs, so we use our numbers against them. We have solid magic, so we use that against Dwarfs and Skaven. We have fair shooting, so we use that against Elves and Skaven (and Dwarfs). We have maneuver advantage over Dwarfs so we use that.

All right, and all those balances were already in place. Why did we get arguably worse at all of them? 

It's all good.  The mortar needed to cost more, the rocket battery needed to be nerfed, the Steam Tank had to change. I know they rewrite the books basically from scratch to make it new and shiny. I just think they changed the core troops too much, and went overboard on the nerfing of the mortar. I honestly like the new rules for the most part.

I more or less agree with CoD's original post. In fact, I feel a bit like he's reading my mind.

I am reading your mind. Right now you're thinking about tacos. Now you're thinking about ... ew ... gross dude. You are one sick puppy.

[Spiney]

By dropping strength 3 mortar templates on them?

Thats not "out-hoarding", it's shooting a horde...

Empire could never out horde skaven slaves, nor could we out-magic Teclis and our ability to out shoot dwarfs was highly debatable.

Cannonofdoom, I think playing a few games would be a good idea, it's not that hard to position your detachments to get flank charges relatively easily, Have a go at playing with some formations and see what works, I think you might be surprised.

Otherwise I agree with pretty much everything you've said, although I do think that reducing swordsmen int to normal human levels was sensible, I never understood why a grunt soldier should have super human reactions just because they were swinging a sword instead of a halberd, especially when our elite greatswords and knights were only I3.

[RockabillGR]

The again, people who whine about certain threads should not read them.

True I should not read them, but for some reason I can't help myself




Edit : You obviously didn't read my post to the end...

[Cannonofdoom]

Cannonofdoom, I think playing a few games would be a good idea, it's not that hard to position your detachments to get flank charges relatively easily, Have a go at playing with some formations and see what works, I think you might be surprised.

I'm going to play around with this and get back to you. Honestly, whenever my detachments are close enough that they would get a flank charge, my opponent charges them instead. Then I have to worry about them crashing through my lines and coming out the other side.

I do think that reducing swordsmen int to normal human levels was sensible

I can get behind that. Syn made a similar argument, and it makes sense.

The again, people who whine about certain threads should not read them.

true i should not read them, but for some reason i cant help myself

You missed the part where he said you should use capital letters. 

Edit: Soth beat me to it.

[noibn]

I more or less agree with CoD's original post. In fact, I feel a bit like he's reading my mind.

You said it, CoD's analysis is spot on in my opinion.

There is a limit to how much game mechanics should be able to contradic fluff in order to keep things balanced. Why drilled and profesional state troops like spearmen are cheaper in points than unruly pitchfork wielding vagabonds (militia) is strange to me.

On a sidenote, I think it would have been neat if they had bumped up the initiative of spearmen to 4. That way swordsmen, halberdiers and spearmen each have one 4 in their statline. It would make sence too since spears are longer reaching weapons than swords, and are lighter weapons than halberds and should therefore be able to hit the enemy before than the other two choices. And make all three options cost 6 points for the sake of balance.

I also find it refreshing to see someone else who shares my view regarding the Demigryph Knights. Yes the sculpts look nice and they have good stats, but monsters like the demigryph, griffon and dragon belong in more "fantastical" armies. For the sake of aesthetics balance humans need to be kept just that, human.

[Lord Solar Plexus]

If your detachment is within 3" it will be very difficult to have half of your frontage be in the flank arc of the enemy unit, especially if you are keeping them back from the main line so they aren't charged instead of your main block.

I don't quite see what's so difficult about it: http://i785.photobucket.com/albums/yy135/stjonthevandalist/pic2forWS.jpg
Edit: Picture courtesy of Spiney while explaining to me how relatively easy detachments are to use!

I'm still going to field 2 blocks of 30 swordsmen and another block of 30 spearmen and probably a block of 30 greatswords and 10-15 Reiksguard (hail the fluff of Altdorf). I'm still going to play with my 20 painstakingly painted handgunners, even though I feel they don't need to be 9 points. I'll still field one cannon, and two mortars, though I'll likely now field a pair of Helblasters too.

Wow, what are you playing, 10k?!?

[warhammerlord_soth]

Wow, what are you playing, 10k?!?

40K, more likely.

[Freman Bloodglaive]

Wow, what are you playing, 10k?!?

40K, more likely.

Nice one. 

[Minsc]

but it is!!

anyway people stop whining, seriously its getting tiresome. if you dont like it dont take it, its that simple.

It's a fact that our infanty/shooting got more expensive and that our DD-generation is gone.
It's not whining when you're being objective and claim something that everyone agree on. 

Stop with the anti-whining, seriously. It's getting old.

[Cannonofdoom]

If your detachment is within 3" it will be very difficult to have half of your frontage be in the flank arc of the enemy unit, especially if you are keeping them back from the main line so they aren't charged instead of your main block.

I don't quite see what's so difficult about it: http://i785.photobucket.com/albums/yy135/stjonthevandalist/pic2forWS.jpg
Edit: Picture courtesy of Spiney while explaining to me how relatively easy detachments are to use!

Okay, and if the charging unit has the same frontage, your detachment is no longer in the flank arc. That's what I'm talking about. Not optimal conditions where your opponent does exactly what you want. I will post a full set of diagram pictures later.

I'm still going to field 2 blocks of 30 swordsmen and another block of 30 spearmen and probably a block of 30 greatswords and 10-15 Reiksguard (hail the fluff of Altdorf). I'm still going to play with my 20 painstakingly painted handgunners, even though I feel they don't need to be 9 points. I'll still field one cannon, and two mortars, though I'll likely now field a pair of Helblasters too.

Wow, what are you playing, 10k?!?

I didn't break out my calculator for that. I don't field a lot of characters though.

[Siberius]

CoD, I think you may have to just readjust your thoughts as to how detachments work.

I think they can take on a slightly different role now. Getting buffs from the parent unit is really nifty, especially hold the line. I actually think I will use them more now than I did last book. And the auto flank charge was a little fiddly so I don't mind losing that. But like everyone else, I am still figuring out the ideal way to use them.

I agree in many ways with your thoughts on demis, I hope to either resist the temptation or fimd something more fluffy to my army to sub in.

[Cannonofdoom]

CoD, I think you may have to just readjust your thoughts as to how detachments work.

I think they can take on a slightly different role now. Getting buffs from the parent unit is really nifty, especially hold the line. I actually think I will use them more now than I did last book. And the auto flank charge was a little fiddly so I don't mind losing that. But like everyone else, I am still figuring out the ideal way to use them.

I agree in many ways with your thoughts on demis, I hope to either resist the temptation or fimd something more fluffy to my army to sub in.

I'm okay with learning to use detachments differently, but right now I'm worried about being able to use them at all.

[Minsc]

On detatchments: I've found out that I rarely use them at all - there's simply not points for it, and the only unit you actually want detatcments on are Greatswords (for stubborn), and that eats away your special allowance.

I'm not saying detatchments are bad, but I find them abit superfluous. They cost to much to act as roadbump, and they add to little in combat to be of any real use.

The only unit that I've found really works as detatchments are 5man archer units. Screeing/Redirecting/Annoying and can even be a bunker for your engineer/witchhunter - all for 35 pts.

[commandant]

I don't see how an extra 10 halberd attacks in the flank can be considered bad.   (even more so when the get hatred from the priest in the main unit).   I am considering upping my basic unit to 60 so that I can bring 2 detachments of thirty.   Of course that is 240 halberdiers for a sweet 1440 (plus full command = 1500).   Seems like a nice enough base for an army    Bring some shooting and such and you have a 3000 point list
One of those units would pump out 90 WS3 St 4 attacks with rerolls in combat and each of the detachments, deployed as a horde are large enough to be a deteriant to anybody charging them as well.

Detachments are really good in this book.


Of course my problem is that I would never have enough models painted.
It should also be noted that at the Euro bash I took my detachments out of my 3000 point list to form a 2500 point list.   There were times when they would have been handy though

[Siberius]

Yeh, 2 detachments of 30 benefitting from various buffs on your 60 strong horde makes a wall of troops that anyone would be scared to run into. Plus, now characters can join detachments with no issues, they are also useful for hiding wizards etc if you want to. Always nice not to have to have all your characters in one basket incase that basket fails.

[Route1]

People are forgetting that things like hatred can be passed onto detachments now, which is pretty big.

My big block of halbs with a warrior priest in it with small detachments have been working really well.

[RockabillGR]

It's a fact that our infanty/shooting got more expensive and that our DD-generation is gone.

Like I said before, dont like it, dont take it.

Back on topic.
I havent used detachments a lot with the new empire to be honest.
But thats because my current list is an MSU so i dont need them.
I believe that they lost some good things, but got some other in return.
Geting affected by parent units psychology is pretty cool i have to say.
Overal im not really disapointed with them as many people seem to be.
But this is just a first impression until i field more of them. We'll see how it goes then

[Cannonofdoom]

That awkward moment when you have a misspelled word in your super funny sarcastic signature ... 

Can we go back to the days when it was acceptable to point to your post count as a valid argument? I have a higher post count, therefore I win! 

Also, I demand my 6000 back table posts count. 

[warhammerlord_soth]

Can we go back to the days when it was acceptable to point to your post count as a valid argument? Like Fandir ?

Also, I demand my 6000 back table posts count.    No way, José

[Cannonofdoom]

So I've run detachments through their paces a lot more. My initial impression remains. I understand they can be useful, and I am sure I can make use of them, especially for greatswords, but I'm never going to view them as a must have like they were in 7th Edition.

[adso113]

I've started taking one 15-man halb detachment with each of my 30-man halb buses, and I've found that they work great. I like that the priest's Hatred, and Hammer of Sigmar, not to mention Divine Protection cover them as well. So, Hatred and re-rolled failed wounds on 20 halberdier attacks? Yes, please. Especially when, with some wrangling, half of those come from a flank.

I guess I'll chip in the rest of my two cents here so I don't start my own new post about it. I've played seven games with the new book, and I like it, well, most of it. I've managed to beat Ogres, Dark Elves, and Lizardmen with a 4-3 record.

At first I thought the halbs were too expensive, but then I realized I can fit 90 of them into a 2k point list. With two warrior priests, two captains (one a BSB), and a lvl 4 wizard, with either a lvl 1 wizard or an engineer. With room for other goodies, like Reiksguard, or Demi-gryphs, or a Hurricanum. So far, ninety has been enough. Haven't played Skaven yet, so, we'll see.

I feel like Warrior Priests got better. The fact that you can use multiple prayers in a turn, and they cover the detachments as well is just plain great. I think I've gotten to use Hold the Line maybe twice, but I like the extra killing power Captains give me (when they aren't targeted for destruction by my opponents, that is). I like the Helblaster a lot. I'd never used one before this book, and its fun to see your opponent running away from it. Usually I team it up with an Engineer and ignore the first misfire on the artillery die. Demi-gryphs are fun, and durable as hell; just make sure you've got them some back-up, or they're a really expensive tar-pit. I haven't run any flagellants yet, but I feel like they're really expensive for the damage they might do. I've taken the Hurricanum out for a spin a couple of times and found it useful for drawing out dispel dice, so that my prayers go off. For some reason the threat of having a unit turned for a flank attack makes my opponents jittery. 

Overall, my win rate is about what it was before, and I've gotten to experiment with new models, and several different lists. I like the variety that I can take to any game. Will the book be good in tournaments? I have no idea. But then, I don't play in tournaments, so I don't really care. Like I said before, with just a couple of exceptions, I like the new book.