Topic: Proper use of detachments?

[Corax13]

I think I posted this in the wrong section last time, so I am reposting it here...

Hey guys,

I need help figuring out how to best use detachments tactic wise.

The first Empire 8th ed game I played, I used a horde of 40 halberdiers with a war priest and a BSB, supported by two detachments of 10 halberdiers, one on each side. Now, my opponent (VC), charged my first detachment with some cav. and before I had the time to reply with my parent unit and/or supporting units (knights), the detachment lost the fight, broke, got run over and made my knights flee of the table due to their total destruction. Yes, I had the BSB, the steadfast rule, the hatred, etc., but you can still miss a leadership test with all that...

What I'm trying to figure out is how to avoid my opponent jumping on those more vulnerable units first? Especially if I were to use shooters. Should I employ less detachments but with more guys, should I deploy them a bit behind my parent regiment, should I remember the steadfast rule even if I loose 5 guys in one go? Did I answer my own question?

Anyways, I'm open to your ideas...

Corax

[Nexus]

I think detachments have changed a lot. Redirecting is now pretty pointless, them causing panic makes them less effective as sacrificial speedbumps, no auto-flank and flanking being less of a big deal overall in 8th has made the countercharging less important.

The big thing detachments can do nowdays is acting as "shields" for the parent unit, binding up enemies and stalling them thanks to stubborn (and possibly steadfast, depending on how they choose to FAQ it). In short, they are good for keeping the enemy from combo-charging your parent.

[Talben21]

Basicaly, as Nexus said... they suck!

Damn shame they couldn't write some solid rules for them.

[rothgar13]

Detachments do have some uses, despite what the above posters have said. They give us a quick and easy way to strip Regeneration, for example. We accomplish that by putting a Priest in the parent unit, having a shooting unit as a detachment, and casting Soulfire. The benefits of the prayer extend to the detachment, which means that you can strip that pesky Regen off the Hydra before you cannon it off the board.

[strassa]

i agree with rothgar you can effectivly spread buffs across your whole army with proper use of WP and detachments and even thouhg its not an auto flank I still get quite a bit of flanks off. But IMO a detachment of 10 is way to small i normally do a detachment of a min of 20

[Botor]

If you use 10 halberds as detachment you must make sure that it is not charged first. You can do that a number of ways, but it is really hard with 2 detachments of 10 halberds. They purpuse is to countercharge to the flank but you can provide only one of them a clear possibilty by positionig your parent in an oblique way. I suggest to take only 1 detachment.

I personally use a sword detachment of 15 with my Greatswords. They can be used as temporary anvil or as flanking detachment.

[Corax13]

Detachments do have some uses, despite what the above posters have said. They give us a quick and easy way to strip Regeneration, for example. We accomplish that by putting a Priest in the parent unit, having a shooting unit as a detachment, and casting Soulfire. The benefits of the prayer extend to the detachment, which means that you can strip that pesky Regen off the Hydra before you cannon it off the board.

So let's say a unit of handgunners as a detachment for an anvil like a bus of swordsmen? Interesting choice, albeit static! And you have to spend some precious PD to hopefully get Soulfire off...

And if they were assigned to a parent unit of archers and get the skirmisher rule, would there be a benefit? They sure can't move and shoot so that rule about not having -1bs for moving wouldn't apply...

So far, I just find detachment cumbersome since they take space on your battle line and you have to move them with your parent units to keep them relevant. However, it seems they are a must in 8th ed.

One thing for sure, 10 guys is not enough. 20 guys for 40 "parents" is like a folding horde of 60 since they all share the same rules. Not bad! However, there is still the problem of my opponent charging the unit first.

I don't know, maybe I'm tackling this from the wrong angle...

[Dosiere]

I am taking one detachment of around 20 guys in my current lists.  Having multiple detachments just seems to get in the way now that you don't auto flank.  They are a good way to help guard the flank of a unit though, and can sometimes attract shooting attacks away from stuff that you really care about.  Also, and it's hard to do without exposing your own flank, but when you can get a flank attack with a unit that will disrupt the enemy it can be huge.

Although I have not tried it out myself, taking a unit of archers as a detachment as a bunker for a mage seems pretty popular.

[Calisson]

Detachments do have some uses, despite what the above posters have said. They give us a quick and easy way to strip Regeneration, for example. We accomplish that by putting a Priest in the parent unit, having a shooting unit as a detachment, and casting Soulfire. The benefits of the prayer extend to the detachment, which means that you can strip that pesky Regen off the Hydra before you cannon it off the board.

I'm afraid the part in red is not accurate: soulfire is nowhere listed among the benefits detachments get.
You'd have to move the WP to the detachment and cast soulfire from inside the detachment.
(I checked BRB p97, that does not make the detachment to be considered as having moved).(edited after checking army book)




Back to initial question, the use for detachments could be to get the cavalry charge instead of the regiment.

Code: [Select]

Enemy
heavy
cavalry

ddddd (first detach)

    ddddd (2nd detach)

RRRRR (regiment)
RRRRR
RRRRR
RRRRREemy charges 1st detachment.
Likely to destroy it and overrun on 2nd one.
Cannot overrun another time, will remain there.
Regiment gets the charge.

If ever enemy charges directly 2nd one, will not overrun on main regiment.

That could be the idea.
Now, I'm not a pro on maneuvering.

[rothgar13]

I'm pretty sure that prayers specifically said they conferred their bonuses to detachments in their description. If not, I have some changes to make on my list.

[Perambulator]

Detachments within 3" of the parent are also targets of the Priests spells. Also all psychology characteristics of the parent apply to the detachment including "Hold the Line!" if you have a captain in the parent

[Nexus]

Detachments do have some uses, despite what the above posters have said. They give us a quick and easy way to strip Regeneration, for example. We accomplish that by putting a Priest in the parent unit, having a shooting unit as a detachment, and casting Soulfire. The benefits of the prayer extend to the detachment, which means that you can strip that pesky Regen off the Hydra before you cannon it off the board.

With a war altar you can make the cannon itself flaming, so you can spend those xbow points elsewhere.

[rothgar13]

But then you have an Arch Lector on a War Altar, who costs more points than most of our other General options when you factor in his gear. And I'd like to know how you're keeping him within 6" of your cannons and your blocks at the same time.

[Sig]

You can keep him in range of the Steam Tank and get a Flaming Steam Cannon. That does the job.

I think the Lector on Altar is quite good now, potentially replacing 2 priests and a General, with the bonus banishment and so on. Certainly not the borked over the top nonsense from 7th, but still good value.

[Nexus]

But then you have an Arch Lector on a War Altar, who costs more points than most of our other General options when you factor in his gear. And I'd like to know how you're keeping him within 6" of your cannons and your blocks at the same time.

Of course it doesn't work for every build, but you can at least discount the 90 points (at the very least) you don't have to spend on Xbows. If you skip the priest in the unit as well, the cost difference isn't that big.

[redflag]

Detachments using the ranks of its parent unit to calculate if it is steadfast is a major tactical advantage to the new empire that almost offsets the ability of the detachment to panic the parent unit (assuming that the FAQ does not state otherwise).

The other use of a detachment (assuming that the FAQ does not state otherwise) is to counter charge an impact hit causing unit that charges the parent unit in order to negate the impact hits.
 

[Noght]

Detachments using the ranks of its parent unit to calculate if it is steadfast is a major tactical advantage to the new empire that almost offsets the ability of the detachment to panic the parent unit (assuming that the FAQ does not state otherwise).
Only if the Regiment and Detchment are in the same combat which the OP says they are not...

The other use of a detachment (assuming that the FAQ does not state otherwise) is to counter charge an impact hit causing unit that charges the parent unit in order to negate the impact hits.
Well the detachment won't get impacted but the Regiment will....

   Wrong x2.  Bravo! 

Use of Detachments with Stubborn Greatswords is the Bomb! (7 point Stubborn Swordsmen with a 6+ Parry Save, yes please).
Use of Detachments with anything else is risky as you are now hoping for buffs to extend over, sometimes magic is fickle.  New rules for Detachments aren't great but at least they count as Core if you need them to.
FYI, Good opponents always charge the Detachments but hey that's better than the important unit!  (Too bad they now cause panic for getting blown up, some might call that a NERF, but I've seen we're not allowed to complain about the new book, so sorry about that...)

Noght

[redflag]

Noght,

   I realize that you seem to live in a customized reality in where only your opinion is correct however let me help you achieve clarity on why I put down "(assuming the FAQ does not state otherwise)" I did it to acknowledge your point of view on this topic.  It seems that you are too dense to realize this and instead insist on picking a fight.

Detachments using the ranks of its parent unit to calculate if it is steadfast is a major tactical advantage to the new empire that almost offsets the ability of the detachment to panic the parent unit (assuming that the FAQ does not state otherwise).
Only if the Regiment and Detchment are in the same combat which the OP says they are not...

The other use of a detachment (assuming that the FAQ does not state otherwise) is to counter charge an impact hit causing unit that charges the parent unit in order to negate the impact hits.
Well the detachment won't get impacted but the Regiment will....

   Wrong x2.  Bravo! 

Use of Detachments with Stubborn Greatswords is the Bomb! (7 point Stubborn Swordsmen with a 6+ Parry Save, yes please).
Use of Detachments with anything else is risky as you are now hoping for buffs to extend over, sometimes magic is fickle.  New rules for Detachments aren't great but at least they count as Core if you need them to.
FYI, Good opponents always charge the Detachments but hey that's better than the important unit!  (Too bad they now cause panic for getting blown up, some might call that a NERF, but I've seen we're not allowed to complain about the new book, so sorry about that...)

Noght

[Noght]

Noght,

   I realize that you seem to live in a customized reality in where only your opinion is correct however let me help you achieve clarity on why I put down "(assuming the FAQ does not state otherwise)" I did it to acknowledge your point of view on this topic.  It seems that you are too dense to realize this and instead insist on picking a fight.

So you need an FAQ to change the rules to fit your world view?  That's cool, it's as equally likely that they will "re-write" the Steadfast/Detachment rules to say "count the Regiments ranks for determining Steadfast" (easist and most elegant) or they will say only "Same Combat" (my bet).  The "Impact Hit" question is wishful thinking.  I'd be happy to be wrong because your Detachment rules are way better than mine are  .

Instead of re-igniting those arguments (you intent methinks, and I of course took the bait happily) you could have answered the OP's question regarding the "proper" use of Detachments, i.e. maybe list building or tactics or postitoning.

So my "Dense" position:  Detachments are worse than the old book overall, however detachments with Stubborn Line Holding Greatswords are/can be awesome.  Detachments with other Units are a risk but YMMV.

Noght

[La Guerra]

I think I posted this in the wrong section last time, so I am reposting it here...

Hey guys,

I need help figuring out how to best use detachments tactic wise.

The first Empire 8th ed game I played, I used a horde of 40 halberdiers with a war priest and a BSB, supported by two detachments of 10 halberdiers, one on each side. Now, my opponent (VC), charged my first detachment with some cav. and before I had the time to reply with my parent unit and/or supporting units (knights), the detachment lost the fight, broke, got run over and made my knights flee of the table due to their total destruction. Yes, I had the BSB, the steadfast rule, the hatred, etc., but you can still miss a leadership test with all that...

What I'm trying to figure out is how to avoid my opponent jumping on those more vulnerable units first? Especially if I were to use shooters. Should I employ less detachments but with more guys, should I deploy them a bit behind my parent regiment, should I remember the steadfast rule even if I loose 5 guys in one go? Did I answer my own question?

Anyways, I'm open to your ideas...

Corax

Just so you know, I interpret the rule as you do with the steadfast being passed onto the detachment based on the parent's ranks even if unengaged.  My opponents have no problem with that, but then again I only play friendly games.

I'd say if you failed a leadership test with a steadfast detachment using the Hold the Line! special rule from the BSB plus the reroll then it was mostly a fluke.  I think this was a great way to use the detachments and if it weren't for unhappy chance you would've had a sweet flank charge on your turn with a big fat regimental horde.

And possibly, assuming that it wouldn't put them in danger of getting flanked, you could reform the regimental unit to face the enemy unit (and also reposition your detachment) so that you can follow up with a charge and/or countercharge.  And, assuming you have the shooting support, this can possibly give you another round to fire on an unengaged unit.

Really these smaller detachments aren't that vulnerable.  If your opponent continues to charge them he's going to more often than not end up in a bad spot and would've been better off charging the regimental unit. 

Also, don't be shy about charging with a regimental unit and a detachment at the same time.  I did this in a recent game and broke a unit of 40 night goblin spearmen with shields and nets with a depleted unit of 13 halberdiers and a detachment of 10 free company thanks to all the extra attacks I got and the fact that he could only net one of my units.  Yeah, not as good as a free flank charge, but hey it can surprise your opponent.

Smaller detachments have the benefit of giving you points to put into your regimental unit, but they also increase the chance that your opponent will just blow right through them, and you give up the opportunity for disrupting enemy ranks.

I would keep doing it like that for now, and see how it works out for you over the course of several games.  If you still aren't sure of the answer then post again.  I don't think you should base your opinions of the new rules based on one isolated incident.

[Ambrose]

I think if your detachment is CC (halberdiers, swordsmen, spearmen) then they should be half the size of the parent unit minimum.  This allows them to support the parent unit and if need be, act as an independant medium size unit who can hopefully hold its own.

If the detachment is ranged focused, I say small is better.  10 is good as you can have two ranks of 5 and flank if the opportunity arises, but the purpose is to pepper any incoming units with their range to help your parent unit.

I'm going to try a 40 man halberdier unit with 20 man sword detachment and 10 man archer detachment this friday.  I'll let people know what I REALLY think of detachments after the battle.

[Corax13]

Thanks La Guerra for bring the thread back on topic.

Yes, I think its possible I forgot the steadfast bonus granted by the parent unit.

There's so many small rules now that it's easy to forget one. Let see, I had:
Steadfast due to the horde,
the general's leadership,
the reroll due to the BSB,
Hold the line, and I still missed it?

It's true though that I AM notoriously unlucky with my dies, although since I left my dour dwarves it seems to be a bit better, but definitely I must have forgotten something.

Anyhow, I'm not giving up, but I do want to know more. That idea about the detachments being in front of the main unit is quite intriguing. Any more manoeuvre ideas?

[redflag]

I personally prefer the 3x3 detachment when defending a horde.  Its (in my opinion) ascetically pleasing and its small size allows it to not block other regiments as they maneuver.  With the ability of parent units to pass along ranks for the purposes of steadfast calculations one does not need to make big detachments.

I think I posted this in the wrong section last time, so I am reposting it here...

Hey guys,

I need help figuring out how to best use detachments tactic wise.

The first Empire 8th ed game I played, I used a horde of 40 halberdiers with a war priest and a BSB, supported by two detachments of 10 halberdiers, one on each side. Now, my opponent (VC), charged my first detachment with some cav. and before I had the time to reply with my parent unit and/or supporting units (knights), the detachment lost the fight, broke, got run over and made my knights flee of the table due to their total destruction. Yes, I had the BSB, the steadfast rule, the hatred, etc., but you can still miss a leadership test with all that...

What I'm trying to figure out is how to avoid my opponent jumping on those more vulnerable units first? Especially if I were to use shooters. Should I employ less detachments but with more guys, should I deploy them a bit behind my parent regiment, should I remember the steadfast rule even if I loose 5 guys in one go? Did I answer my own question?

Anyways, I'm open to your ideas...

Corax

Just so you know, I interpret the rule as you do with the steadfast being passed onto the detachment based on the parent's ranks even if unengaged.  My opponents have no problem with that, but then again I only play friendly games.

I'd say if you failed a leadership test with a steadfast detachment using the Hold the Line! special rule from the BSB plus the reroll then it was mostly a fluke.  I think this was a great way to use the detachments and if it weren't for unhappy chance you would've had a sweet flank charge on your turn with a big fat regimental horde.

And possibly, assuming that it wouldn't put them in danger of getting flanked, you could reform the regimental unit to face the enemy unit (and also reposition your detachment) so that you can follow up with a charge and/or countercharge.  And, assuming you have the shooting support, this can possibly give you another round to fire on an unengaged unit.

Really these smaller detachments aren't that vulnerable.  If your opponent continues to charge them he's going to more often than not end up in a bad spot and would've been better off charging the regimental unit. 

Also, don't be shy about charging with a regimental unit and a detachment at the same time.  I did this in a recent game and broke a unit of 40 night goblin spearmen with shields and nets with a depleted unit of 13 halberdiers and a detachment of 10 free company thanks to all the extra attacks I got and the fact that he could only net one of my units.  Yeah, not as good as a free flank charge, but hey it can surprise your opponent.

Smaller detachments have the benefit of giving you points to put into your regimental unit, but they also increase the chance that your opponent will just blow right through them, and you give up the opportunity for disrupting enemy ranks.

I would keep doing it like that for now, and see how it works out for you over the course of several games.  If you still aren't sure of the answer then post again.  I don't think you should base your opinions of the new rules based on one isolated incident.

[middenheimer]

Anyone thought of going 60+ for the parent unit with a detachment of 30?  that's a unit in itself! 

60 spears is 300pts, you could horde them and take a detachment of 30 halbs and horde them too   with the right buffs could be great fun, Don't feel we'll see this below about 3000pts though...

(NOTE: don't insert/restart spears vs halbs arguement here)

I like the thought of horde to the front with WP + horde to the  flank on the countercharge horribly unweildly, but.....

[Calisson]

I'm pretty sure that prayers specifically said they conferred their bonuses to detachments in their description. If not, I have some changes to make on my list.

My bad! They do.